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View Full Version : Civil Liberties: Can Possibly Make Someone a Strong Supporter




giovannile07
02-10-2012, 02:23 AM
1) I personally enjoy the CIA (and no I do not believe they are behind illegal drugs)
2) The United Nations is something I enjoy being in
3) His off the wall voting- against a medal of heroism for Rosa Parks
- against FEMA help in his own county when they were struck by natural disasters
4) If I'm not mistaken he wants to abolish minimum wage
5) He wants to repeal Roe v. Wade
6) I think he was an original sponsor of the Defensive Marriage Act (not completely sure)
7) Privatizing education

These are the things this one guy said he doesn't like about Ron Paul on another forum, but he does think he's the best GOP candidate at the moment. He also realizes that there might be good intentions under these things, but that he only knows stronger supporters will go deep enough to know the reason why.

1) I don't specifically know what he's talking about...
2) Ron Paul wants to get out of the United Nations I think because it is somewhat similar to the European Union, not very strong on this either...
3) I know this one, he didn't want to give Rosa Parks a medal because it involved using the money of the taxpayers and said he was willing to put in a few hundred bucks to pay for it himself if they were willing to.
FEMA, was it because he wants the states to control the funds for helping out natural disasters?
4) Not sure about this one too...
5) Guessing he does since he is against abortion and believes unborn children have rights too.
6) Not sure about this one, but I remember if he was it was because of something that had nothing to do with gay marriage I believe...
7) Not sure about this one too...

Anyways, if you could please help me counter these things or explain it further to the guy it would be awesome thanks!

Feeding the Abscess
02-10-2012, 02:35 AM
1. Ron has said he'd like to abolish the CIA a number of times over the years.

2. The U.N. usurps authority from us, and passes mandates and laws that we must follow. It is in direct conflict with the Constitution.

3. There's no authority for FEMA or natural disaster relief funds in the Constitution; it is also bad economic policy. It promotes moral hazard - people shouldn't build homes in hurricane-prone areas.

4. Yes, it prices poor and unskilled workers out of the market. Young black males are particularly hard hit.

5. Roe v. Wade would move abortion back to the state level, which is where it belongs on a Constitutional basis.

6. He was not in Congress for the Defense of Marriage Act, although he says he would have voted for it for states' rights reasons. Basically, it's a stance against federal handouts. It's imperfect, but what can you do.

7. He didn't even call for abolishing public schools when he ran on the Libertarian Party ticket in 1988. He's called for more competition and an eliminated role at the federal level.

Simple
02-10-2012, 10:46 AM
Here is a great explanation of liberty and where our civil liberties come from:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NI1NHv077bs#!

cjm
02-10-2012, 12:47 PM
1) I personally enjoy the CIA (and no I do not believe they are behind illegal drugs)
2) The United Nations is something I enjoy being in
3) His off the wall voting- against a medal of heroism for Rosa Parks
- against FEMA help in his own county when they were struck by natural disasters
4) If I'm not mistaken he wants to abolish minimum wage
5) He wants to repeal Roe v. Wade
6) I think he was an original sponsor of the Defensive Marriage Act (not completely sure)
7) Privatizing education


4 & 7) means he doesn't understand economics. Competition increases quality and lowers prices. Protectionist schemes like the minimum wage laws and forced participation in funding government schools distort the market. Have him read this, not just for coming around to Ron Paul, but to be able to make more intelligent decisions in day to day life:

Lessons for the Young Economist, by Robert Murphy (http://mises.org/document/5706)

1, 2, & 3) He's judging those organizations based on their claimed purpose and not their actual actions. Heck, the CIA+drug thing is even up on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking He needs to get past the names of the organizations and read up on what they are actually doing.

5 & 6) Those are 10th amendment issues. SC and CA will never agree on gay marriage or abortion. Not in our lifetimes anyway. Why continue these fights at the federal level where they are (a) unconstitutional, and (b) just a distraction from real federal issues?

BTW, with that list, this person isn't even remotely conservative. Good luck with this project.

giovannile07
02-10-2012, 02:41 PM
4 & 7) means he doesn't understand economics. Competition increases quality and lowers prices. Protectionist schemes like the minimum wage laws and forced participation in funding government schools distort the market. Have him read this, not just for coming around to Ron Paul, but to be able to make more intelligent decisions in day to day life:

Lessons for the Young Economist, by Robert Murphy (http://mises.org/document/5706)

1, 2, & 3) He's judging those organizations based on their claimed purpose and not their actual actions. Heck, the CIA+drug thing is even up on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking He needs to get past the names of the organizations and read up on what they are actually doing.

5 & 6) Those are 10th amendment issues. SC and CA will never agree on gay marriage or abortion. Not in our lifetimes anyway. Why continue these fights at the federal level where they are (a) unconstitutional, and (b) just a distraction from real federal issues?

BTW, with that list, this person isn't even remotely conservative. Good luck with this project.


1. Ron has said he'd like to abolish the CIA a number of times over the years.

2. The U.N. usurps authority from us, and passes mandates and laws that we must follow. It is in direct conflict with the Constitution.

3. There's no authority for FEMA or natural disaster relief funds in the Constitution; it is also bad economic policy. It promotes moral hazard - people shouldn't build homes in hurricane-prone areas.

4. Yes, it prices poor and unskilled workers out of the market. Young black males are particularly hard hit.

5. Roe v. Wade would move abortion back to the state level, which is where it belongs on a Constitutional basis.

6. He was not in Congress for the Defense of Marriage Act, although he says he would have voted for it for states' rights reasons. Basically, it's a stance against federal handouts. It's imperfect, but what can you do.

7. He didn't even call for abolishing public schools when he ran on the Libertarian Party ticket in 1988. He's called for more competition and an eliminated role at the federal level.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

1) For the CIA, why exactly does he want to eliminate it?
4) This one is more confusing for me because I don't understand economics completely either. So, by abolishing a minimum wage it does not really protect the poor, how does it exactly distort the market?

Thanks again, yeah it's difficult to talk to people I know will have a hard time understanding, but I'm stubborn and diligent like that haha I don't give up...

cjm
02-10-2012, 09:06 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys.

1) For the CIA, why exactly does he want to eliminate it?
4) This one is more confusing for me because I don't understand economics completely either. So, by abolishing a minimum wage it does not really protect the poor, how does it exactly distort the market?

Thanks again, yeah it's difficult to talk to people I know will have a hard time understanding, but I'm stubborn and diligent like that haha I don't give up...

Bob Murphy covers price floors (of which the minimum wage is just one example) in chapter 17 of his book. (http://www.vforvoluntary.com/young-economist/index.html?73-chap17.html) I'll try to give you the 60 second version with an example.

1. I have a lemonade stand that nets me about $4/hour.
2. I want to open a new stand and I found a guy who would be willing to man my original stand for $3/hour leaving me free to open the second stand.
3. The government says the minimum wage is $5/hour.
4. I cannot afford to hire the guy since my business doesn't make enough to cover that wage, so the prospective employee remains unemployed and my business doesn't expand either. Customers who would have benefited from the new stand now cannot.

This is an over-simplified example. If you want to really understand it, you should read a good book on economics. I've read maybe 20 "intro to econ" books trying to find a good one that covers all of the topics that I think are important (which for Austrian economics includes methodology), and Bob Murphy's book is my favorite of this type. If you don't have a good grasp as to why minimum wage laws are bad, read this book. If it doesn't change your life, come back to this thread and neg rep me.

mczerone
02-10-2012, 09:29 PM
To all of these things there is a simple response: "You are free to want these things, but how do you justify forcing me and all of your countrymen into supporting them? Ron Paul doesn't want to rid the world of security or a social safety net, he just doesn't see the morality or economic sense, let alone constitutionality, in managing these things with the federal govt."

giovannile07
02-11-2012, 01:35 PM
Thanks guys! :D

giovannile07
02-11-2012, 02:22 PM
Thanks again, I just copied and pasted some responses from you guys if you don't mind!