% of total population voting for RP, by state (hint: NH blows away the competition) [Archive]

newbitech

02-10-2012, 11:54 AM

just for comparison sake, here is 2008 sorted by the same stat.

State or territory
Census
population
4/1/2010
Turnout
Ron
Paul
Votes
Ron
Paul
%
% pop
turn
out
% pop
Ron
Paul
% of Ron Paul
Vote

MT
989,415
94,789
20,452
21.58%
9.58%
2.07%
1.69%

ID
1,567,582
125,570
29,785
23.72%
8.01%
1.90%
2.46%

NH
1,316,470
234,851
18,308
7.80%
17.84%
1.39%
1.51%

OR
3,831,074
349,914
51,100
14.60%
9.13%
1.33%
4.22%

SD
814,180
60,954
10,072
16.52%
7.49%
1.24%
0.83%

PA
12,702,379
815,364
129,246
15.85%
6.42%
1.02%
10.68%

NE
1,826,341
135,712
17,647
13.00%
7.43%
0.97%
1.46%

NM
2,059,179
110,814
15,551
14.03%
5.38%
0.76%
1.29%

WA
6,724,540
529,932
40,539
7.65%
7.88%
0.60%
3.35%

MI
9,883,640
869,293
54,475
6.27%
8.80%
0.55%
4.50%

TN
6,346,105
553,005
31,026
5.61%
8.71%
0.49%
2.56%

IN
6,483,802
412,745
31,699
7.68%
6.37%
0.49%
2.62%

OH
11,536,504
1,045,624
55,690
5.33%
9.06%
0.48%
4.60%

MO
5,988,927
588,720
26,464
4.50%
9.83%
0.44%
2.19%

VT
625,741
39,843
2,635
6.61%
6.37%
0.42%
0.22%

NC
9,535,483
517,583
37,260
7.20%
5.43%
0.39%
3.08%

IA
3,046,355
119,188
11,841
9.93%
3.91%
0.39%
0.98%

AR
2,915,918
229,153
10,983
4.79%
7.86%
0.38%
0.91%

AZ
6,392,017
541,035
22,692
4.19%
8.46%
0.36%
1.88%

IL
12,830,632
899,422
45,055
5.01%
7.01%
0.35%
3.72%

SC
4,625,364
445,677
16,155
3.62%
9.64%
0.35%
1.33%

CA
37,253,956
2,932,811
125,365
4.27%
7.87%
0.34%
10.36%

WI
5,686,986
402,699
19,090
4.74%
7.08%
0.34%
1.58%

FL
18,801,310
1,949,498
62,887
3.23%
10.37%
0.33%
5.20%

AK
710,231
13,703
2,363
17.24%
1.93%
0.33%
0.20%

MD
5,773,552
320,989
19,196
5.98%
5.56%
0.33%
1.59%

UT
2,763,885
296,061
8,846
2.99%
10.71%
0.32%
0.73%

WV
1,852,994
117,945
5,914
5.01%
6.37%
0.32%
0.49%

AL
4,779,736
552,155
14,810
2.68%
11.55%
0.31%
1.22%

ND
672,591
9,743
2,082
21.37%
1.45%
0.31%
0.17%

KY
4,339,367
197,793
13,427
6.79%
4.56%
0.31%
1.11%

NJ
8,791,894
566,201
27,184
4.80%
6.44%
0.31%
2.25%

OK
3,751,351
335,054
11,183
3.34%
8.93%
0.30%
0.92%

GA
9,687,653
963,541
28,096
2.92%
9.95%
0.29%
2.32%

VA
8,001,024
489,252
21,999
4.50%
6.11%
0.27%
1.82%

TX
25,145,561
1,362,322
66,360
4.87%
5.42%
0.26%
5.48%

DE
897,934
50,237
2,131
4.24%
5.59%
0.24%
0.18%

NV
2,700,551
44,324
6,087
13.73%
1.64%
0.23%
0.50%

NY
19,378,102
670,078
40,113
5.99%
3.46%
0.21%
3.31%

MA
6,547,629
500,550
13,251
2.65%
7.64%
0.20%
1.09%

LA
4,533,372
156,101
8,590
5.50%
3.44%
0.19%
0.71%

MN
5,303,925
62,828
9,852
15.68%
1.18%
0.19%
0.81%

MS
2,967,297
143,286
5,510
3.85%
4.83%
0.19%
0.46%

CT
3,574,097
151,604
6,287
4.15%
4.24%
0.18%
0.52%

RI
1,052,567
26,996
1,777
6.58%
2.56%
0.17%
0.15%

CO
5,029,196
70,229
5,910
8.42%
1.40%
0.12%
0.49%

KS
2,853,118
19,133
2,182
11.40%
0.67%
0.08%
0.18%

ME
1,328,361
5,491
1,002
18.25%
0.41%
0.08%
0.08%

HI
1
0
0
#DIV/0!
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%

WY
1
0
0
#DIV/0!
0.00%
0.00%
0.00%

Total
(ex D.C. & Terr)
306,219,890
21,129,812
1,210,169
5.73%
6.90%
0.40%
100.00%

*No Data
**Source Wikipedia
***Note*** When states with non-binding primaries shown instead of caucus results
****This Chart compiled to show POPULAR support****

tremendoustie

02-10-2012, 12:01 PM

two words...

Open Primary

The caucuses will always have a lower percentage of the total population.
Closed primaries will be lower than open ones.
FL was pretty much uncontested, and while SC was open, the media did not report that fact.

This isn't to suggest that NH is not friendly ground, but that there are other reasons for these percentages.

The NH primary was not open -- Ds were not allowed to vote, only Rs and Is.

The fact is, if you walk down a random street in NH, more than 1 in 25 people you see voted for RP in the republican primary -- and that's including children, democrats, etc. No other state can come close to saying that.

The community of people who understand and support liberty is simply far more numerous in NH than in any other state.

centure7

02-10-2012, 12:06 PM

NH is slowly becoming the most free state in every category, so I'm still feeling good about over 1,000 people having moved! After 2,000 people have moved I expect it to quickly become the most free state in every category.

bw68

02-10-2012, 12:13 PM

Maine is dead last? That's not good.

echebota

02-10-2012, 12:21 PM

Somehow, NH is one of the top states by % or registered democrats. Go figure :)

Captain Shays

02-10-2012, 12:32 PM

if all the free staters in NH moved down to SC, I would definitely get on board

I don't like snow, SC is so much nicer

Who says the Free State Project must be limited to one state? I think South Carolina would be a great second front in the war to preserve our liberty. I agree with you. It's much warmer there but there are other reasons why SC would be a great place to stagea come back for liberty. They have a relatively low population and they too love limited government......for the most part. I think it's a great place for liberty minded Christians to set up a movement because then we can influence Christians who make up a large segment of their population but have been misguided by neocons. Besides. My wife grew up in upstate SC and we can get a piece of land there pretty cheap.

Captain Shays

02-10-2012, 12:33 PM

Maine is dead last? That's not good.
They move over from Mass.

Keith and stuff

02-10-2012, 07:40 PM

if all the free staters in NH moved down to SC, I would definitely get on board

I don't like snow, SC is so much nicer

What do you mean? The reason the percentage was so high in SC is because Ron Paul got a 70% boost in the SC Republican Primary polls because of his great success in the New Hampshire Republican Primary. Without the amazing success in NH, Ron Paul may not have even broken the 1.0% level in SC, just like the other states.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/entry.php?530-Paul%E2%80%99s-New-Hampshire-Bump

In polls by three different polling companies, Ron Paul had a significant bump in South Carolina. According to the South Carolina PPP poll before the New Hampshire Primary, Ron Paul polled at 9%. In the PPP poll right after the New Hampshire Primary, Ron Paul polled at 15%. The pre-New Hampshire Primary Rasmussen Reports poll had Ron Paul at 11%. The post-New Hampshire Primary Rasmussen Reports poll had Ron Paul at 16%. The American Research Group polls before and after the New Hampshire Primary showed a jump from 9% to 20% for Ron Paul in South Carolina.

Keith and stuff

02-10-2012, 07:42 PM

two words...

Open Primary

Closed primaries will be lower than open ones.
FL was pretty much uncontested, and while SC was open, the media did not report that fact.

This isn't to suggest that NH is not friendly ground, but that there are other reasons for these percentages.

I agree. NH doesn't have an open primary so it is amazing how well Ron Paul did compared to SC which has an open primary. That's why Ron Paul got 2nd with 4% of the vote in the NH Democratic Primary. And to think, Ron Paul's success in NH gave him a 70% boost in the SC polls.

lucent

02-10-2012, 07:43 PM

Imagine if 1,000 constitutionalists moved to a State where only 5,000 people vote.

Keith and stuff

02-10-2012, 07:49 PM

Who says the Free State Project must be limited to one state?

The people of the FSP.

I think South Carolina would be a great second front in the war to preserve our liberty.

There is already a 2nd front, though completely unrelated to the FSP called Free State Wyoming. A member of it is active on this forum and he said that he may be the only person involved with it that is a political activists. There is another group that was also inspired by the FSP. It is called Christian Exodus. The goal is to move hardcore Christians to SC, cut taxes, ban gay freedom, ban abortion and that type of stuff. You know, the stuff your typical hardcore evangelical Republican wants.

I agree with you. It's much warmer there but there are other reasons why SC would be a great place to stagea come back for liberty. They have a relatively low population and they too love limited government......for the most part.

Well, the people moving to SC really aren't about increasing freedom or limiting the government. The government is actually worse in SC than most states so going to SC for freedom is kinda of counterproductive, anyway. SC is ranked #26. NH is ranked #1. http://mercatus.org/freedom-in-the-50-states/SC

lakefx

02-10-2012, 07:51 PM

At some point in my life I'll be joining the REAL free state...Montana. The FSP is a great idea though, it gives MT some competition/comradery.

I'll wager 7% of the MT population votes for Ron Paul this time around.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs38/i/2008/344/6/8/Electric_Paradise_by_LakeFX.jpg
Paradise Valley, MT.....Who can beat Montana, seriously? Freedom is beautiful.

Keith and stuff

02-10-2012, 07:53 PM

Imagine if 1,000 constitutionalists moved to a State where only 5,000 people vote.

Except there is nit a state where even only 250,000 people vote.
731,163 people voted in the Maine 2008 Presidential election
1,920,969 people voted in the SC 2008 Presidential election
even 327,341 people voted in the AK 2008 Presidential election

tremendoustie

02-10-2012, 08:30 PM

lakefx

02-10-2012, 09:08 PM

Oh its ON tremendoustie....

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs39/i/2008/344/b/3/Truly__This_is_Paradise__by_LakeFX.jpg

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs38/i/2008/346/2/3/Cedar_Waxwing_by_LakeFX.jpg

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/334/0/e/cloudburst_and_rainbow_by_lakefx-d33yrpu.jpg

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs38/i/2008/352/e/1/Three_Strikes_in_Paradise_by_LakeFX.jpg

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/157/0/a/Paradise_Valley_Montana_Pan_by_LakeFX.jpg

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs38/i/2008/365/b/4/Devil__s_slide_by_LakeFX.jpg

Nate-ForLiberty

02-10-2012, 09:18 PM

That's it. I moving to Montana AND New Hampshire!!

GO GO QUANTUM SUPERPOSITION OF LIBERTEEEEHHH!!!!

QuickZ06

02-10-2012, 09:27 PM

I have always liked Montana or North Dakota. Me is thinking Montana.

Shane Harris

02-10-2012, 09:31 PM

My top four states (in no particular order) would be Montana, Wyoming, Idaho and New Hampshire. All vastly superior to Pennsylvania and Tennessee.

qh4dotcom

02-10-2012, 09:41 PM

If you want to live in a state with a very large population of people who "get it", you know where to go =)

FSP FTW! :cool:

Come on...the state of NH chose Obama in 2008.

Keith and stuff

02-10-2012, 09:46 PM

My top four states (in no particular order) would be Montana, Wyoming, Idaho and New Hampshire. All vastly superior to Pennsylvania and Tennessee.

I know TN was a lost cause after years of losing politically there. I was especially sad to be part of the losing side in the Tennessee Tax Revolt in 2000. It was such a sad loss.

According to Freedom in the 50 States, the top 10 states are:
1. New Hampshire
2. South Dakota
3. Indiana
4. Idaho
5. Missouri
6. Nevada
7. Colorado
8. Oregon
9. Virginia
10. North Dakota
21. Wyoming
29. Montana

IMO, the report unfairly punished WY because of the massive corporate taxes on oil/gas/mineral companies and outrageously high government spending that of that money. However, I feel the people of WY could adjust to a much lower standard of living if taxes were greatly reduced on corporations. I don't blame the people of WY for the large government. I understand where the report is coming from, I just disagree with it on that issue. Perhaps WY shouldn't be in the top 10 but pretty close. Likewise, MT should be in the top 25, IMO.

As for the prettiest state, I've been to all of them. I've been to most states more than once, including MT. Heck, I live in NH. Still, AK is the prettiest state as far as I'm concerned.

rich34

02-10-2012, 09:47 PM

This may be true but WV was the only state that had real delegates at the national convention in 08 that voted for Paul ;)

Keith and stuff

02-10-2012, 09:52 PM

This may be true but WV was the only state that had real delegates at the national convention in 08 that voted for Paul ;)

It is 36th in freedom.

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011/WV
Freedom Rankings
#36 Overall
#40 Economic
#26 Personal

http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/R.phtml#note10

We get a total of 2,343 for McCain, 15 for Paul, and 2 for Romney as announced from the floor. If the 30 votes from West Virginia and the 74 votes from Pennsylvania are all counted for McCain: the total is 2,346 for McCain, 13 for Paul, and 2 for Romney.

The 5 Paul votes from Alaska, 4 from Oregon, 4 from Washington, and 2 from West Virginia were not at all announced aloud by the Chair, but the 2 for Romney from Utah were. Indeed, none of the votes for Paul were announced from the Chair and Paul lost 2 votes between the floor and the Chair (re: West Virginia).

The 6 Paul votes from Minnesota were neither heard from the floor nor announced from the chair.

The final tally as announced from the Chair was: McCain 2,372, Romney 2, and Paul 5. This totals to 2,379.

tremendoustie

02-10-2012, 09:56 PM

Come on...the state of NH chose Obama in 2008.

And you wish they'd chosen John McCain?

Libertarians obviously do not make up the majority of the people in NH (otherwise RP would have won outright) -- but the percentage of pro-liberty people in NH -- and especially active pro liberty people -- is many, many times greater than in any other state.

Pro-liberty efforts here can be immediately backed up by hundreds of very active people -- even thousands. Elsewhere, you often get crickets.

Keith and stuff

02-10-2012, 10:05 PM

Come on...the state of NH chose Obama in 2008.

And we voted Ron Paul over Obama in 2012. Ron Paul had 59,000+ votes compared to Obama's 49,000+ votes. I think Ron Paul could beat again Obama later in the year. Unfortunately, it looks like Ron Paul may not win the Republican nomination.

qh4dotcom

02-10-2012, 10:17 PM

And you wish they'd chosen John McCain?

Libertarians obviously do not make up the majority of the people in NH (otherwise RP would have won outright) -- but the percentage of pro-liberty people in NH -- and especially active pro liberty people -- is many, many times greater than in any other state.

Pro-liberty efforts here can be immediately backed up by hundreds of very active people -- even thousands. Elsewhere, you often get crickets.

Too many folks in NH voted for Obama & McCain...more folks should have stayed at home or voted 3rd party.

tremendoustie

02-10-2012, 11:14 PM

Too many folks in NH voted for Obama & McCain...more folks should have stayed at home or voted 3rd party.

Sorry, that's just silly. ~30% of eligible voters didn't vote -- how do you know how many of them didn't vote because they didn't like the options?

If you're pointing out that strongly pro-liberty people don't make up the majority of the population of NH, that's obvious. Show me a state where we're anything close to a majority, and I'll move there.

The point is, the pro liberty community in NH is many, many times stronger than in any other state. In addition, NH is already the freest state, and NH's structure facilitates future reform (e.g. there's a rep for every 2500 people, and they get paid $100 a year).

I get it, perhaps you hate the idea of cold weather. Perhaps you have reasons you really can't move -- like job(s) or family. You obviously have every right to make your own choices about where you live, and I'm not trying to tell you to do anything you don't want to.

I'm just trying to make people aware of the facts -- NH is definitely where pro-liberty people are migrating, it has the most liberty activists, it's got the highest percentage of RP supporters by far, it's already the freest state, and it's getting freer all the time.

I'm thankful for your efforts wherever you live =)

Keith and stuff

02-12-2012, 11:27 AM

Sadly, Maine is the worst state so far by this metric. Less than 2,000 people voted for Ron Paul in Maine. That is an even lower percentage than in Colorado. Far more than 2,000 people in Maine saw Ron Paul during his 3 days of visits. Even after all of the caucuses happen in Maine, Maine will still be last by this metric.

There seems to be a decent level of support for Ron Paul in Maine, most of those people just do not care about Ron Paul enough to do a caucus (it is a lot of fun, I know, I was at several in Maine yesterday.) If Maine had a primary system, I think a lot more Maine voters would vote for Ron Paul, maybe the 0.2% (the amount that voted for the in the caucuses) would go all the way up past the 1.7% of the population that voted for Ron Paul in South Carolina. Unfortunately, if Maine had a primary system, Ron Paul would have very likely finished 3rd in Maine behind Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum. Thank goodness Maine has a caucus system :)

Captain Shays

02-12-2012, 07:41 PM

Keith and stuff

02-12-2012, 08:05 PM

I would love to go up and join Chuck Baldwin's freedom movement in Montana but it's way to cold up there. my wife wouldn't let us move to New Hampshire for their freedom project so there's no way she would let us move to an even colder climate. I'm thinking maybe Arizona but that might be too far from the ocean. All I know is that New Jersey just does't cut it. Way too many laws and we've been a poice state since the 70's and it's really bad now.

AZ is better than NJ. Moving to AZ or MT for liberty seems silly though. Heck, if you just want to retire somewhere warmer than NJ, move to NV, FL or TX. VA would also work.

Freedom in the 50 States Ranking:
1. NH
6. NV
9. VA
11. FL
14. TX
22. AZ
29. MT
49. NJ

Badger for Paul

02-12-2012, 08:10 PM

It stands to reason that RP could do really well in Vermont as well. Open primary, lots of young democrats that could be convinced to cross over. I hope it gets targeted by the campaign

PaulConventionWV

02-12-2012, 08:59 PM

Except there is nit a state where even only 250,000 people vote.
731,163 people voted in the Maine 2008 Presidential election
1,920,969 people voted in the SC 2008 Presidential election
even 327,341 people voted in the AK 2008 Presidential election

I believe we're talking about the Republican primary, not the general election.

Keith and stuff

02-12-2012, 09:13 PM

I believe we're talking about the Republican primary, not the general election.

If you are talking about 1000 Constitutionalists moving to Maine where only 5,000 people vote in the Maine Republican Caucus, then I see your point. However, my guess is that over 1000 Constitutionalists already live in Maine. I would guess a much larger amount. However, most of them likely don't vote in the Caucus. So, it would be pretty important to encourage most of the new folks to vote in the Caucus. It may help because if a pro-liberty candidate won in ME, some media would cover it. As for the delegates, even the way it is now in Maine, most of the delegates are Ron Paul people :)

ConCap

02-12-2012, 09:44 PM

Adrock

02-12-2012, 10:09 PM

Keith and stuff

02-12-2012, 10:22 PM

Indiana is closer to family. Looks like they have a good score too, plus they just passed that right to work legislation. I could do New Hampshire too, if they pass right to work. AZ is getting a little old for me right now. A lot of older neocons in the GOP here.
Are you thinking about starting a large corporation? Right to work is a minor issues for almost everyone. But yes, a version of RTW is working it's way through the NH government right now. I am not sure if it will have enough votes to override Gov. Lynch (he is not running again so there will be a NH governor in 2013.) Last year, a different version of RTW failed to override Gov. Lynches veto by around 12 votes.

IN is a decent state to live in, freedom wise. There is not a large and growing liberty movement there so I expect it to continue to get worst most years, but for people that refuse to leave the Midwest no matter what, it is a nice option.

ConCap

02-12-2012, 10:33 PM

Texas abolished its property tax, and it’s income tax.
If NH did this or at least the property tax, I would be there tomorrow, knowing I can keep my property no matter how bad off I am.

Adrock

02-12-2012, 10:49 PM

Are you thinking about starting a large corporation? Right to work is a minor issues for almost everyone. But yes, a version of RTW is working it's way through the NH government right now. I am not sure if it will have enough votes to override Gov. Lynch (he is not running again so there will be a NH governor in 2013.) Last year, a different version of RTW failed to override Gov. Lynches veto by around 12 votes.

IN is a decent state to live in, freedom wise. There is not a large and growing liberty movement there so I expect it to continue to get worst most years, but for people that refuse to leave the Midwest no matter what, it is a nice option.

I grew up in Michigan and was forced to join a union when I was younger. Let's just say it permanently left a mark on my view of the "right to work" vs "forced unionization" debate. It is not "the" issue for me, but it is important. I feel that forced unionization is not compatible with liberty at any level.

New Hampshire seems nice because of the growing liberty community.

Keith and stuff

02-12-2012, 10:54 PM

Texas abolished its property tax, and it’s income tax.
If NH did this, I would be there tomorrow, knowing I can keep my property no matter how bad off I am.

I am sorry but Debra Medina was last in the Texas gubernatorial election. She wanted to end property taxes in TX but her platform of reducing taxes was very unpopular in TX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_gubernatorial_election,_2010#Results

NH has something called mobile homes. You can buy a mobile home for less than $10,000 and put it in a low property tax town. You could also buy a lot of land and put all but a couple acres in current use, meaning they are taxed at close to nothing. I agree with you though, that NH needs to make progress. We aren't close to free yet in NH. However, we are much more free than people in some states and at least a little more free than people in every other state. It doesn't happen overnight but we will continue to get more and more free in NH. Liberty activists will continue to leave the other 49 states and move to NH. It just makes sense to be a part of it. After all, you don't want to be left behind, do you :)

ConCap

02-13-2012, 07:22 AM

I am sorry but Debra Medina was last in the Texas gubernatorial election. She wanted to end property taxes in TX but her platform of reducing taxes was very unpopular in TX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_gubernatorial_election,_2010#Results

NH has something called mobile homes. You can buy a mobile home for less than $10,000 and put it in a low property tax town. You could also buy a lot of land and put all but a couple acres in current use, meaning they are taxed at close to nothing. I agree with you though, that NH needs to make progress. We aren't close to free yet in NH. However, we are much more free than people in some states and at least a little more free than people in every other state. It doesn't happen overnight but we will continue to get more and more free in NH. Liberty activists will continue to leave the other 49 states and move to NH. It just makes sense to be a part of it. After all, you don't want to be left behind, do you :)

Thanks
Unlike a lot of people on this forum, I’m not against paying taxes as long as it for Constitutional requirements, Federal, State or Local.

The thing with property tax is, should I for some reason I end up in dire straites, after 20yrs in the military, I know how to live in a hole in the ground. But you have to have ground in which to dig it.

As long as someone can take your property away for any reason, things will never be right.
So, reguardless of a States Freedom level, I will choose no property tax over all most anything else.

tremendoustie

02-13-2012, 08:01 AM

Texas abolished its property tax, and it’s income tax.
If NH did this or at least the property tax, I would be there tomorrow, knowing I can keep my property no matter how bad off I am.

Well, we already don't have income tax (or sales tax).

I would certainly like to see property taxes reduced, and someday abolished, however.

Edit: Actually, apparently Texas has among the highest property taxes in the country -- it's just assessed a the local level. So, we're comparing only property tax (NH) to property and sales tax (TX).

tremendoustie

02-13-2012, 08:07 AM

GraniteHills

02-13-2012, 08:09 AM

Well, we already don't have income tax (or sales tax).

I would certainly like to see property taxes reduced, and someday abolished, however.

Then we need to make sure we work really hard in coming months against gubernatorial candidates like Hassan (who knows where she stands on issues? very Lynchian in that regard) and, especially, Cilley, who just refused to rule out an income or sales tax. I posted a link to her anti-Free State rant in the NH sub-forum a few days ago.

tremendoustie

02-13-2012, 08:11 AM

Then we need to make sure we work really hard in coming months against gubernatorial candidates like Hassan (who knows where she stands on issues? very Lynchian in that regard) and, especially, Cilley, who just refused to rule out an income or sales tax. I posted a link to her anti-Free State rant in the NH sub-forum a few days ago.

I think I'll probably end up writing in Forsythe.

GraniteHills

02-13-2012, 08:15 AM

I think I'll probably end up writing in Forsythe.

Yeah, Smith and Ovide (especially) are not really what we're looking for.

I wonder what Forsythe's NH future is going to be. TPTB will not do him any favors for supporting RP, that's for sure.

tremendoustie

02-13-2012, 08:47 AM

Yeah, Smith and Ovide (especially) are not really what we're looking for.

I wonder what Forsythe's NH future is going to be. TPTB will not do him any favors for supporting RP, that's for sure.

We are, and are becoming, TPTB. We can't let them stop us.

Keith and stuff

02-13-2012, 10:01 AM

As long as someone can take your property away for any reason, things will never be right.
So, reguardless of a States Freedom level, I will choose no property tax over all most anything else.

That's cool. In most towns in NH, people vote on much of the expenses and then tax is decided based on the expenses. Some towns have really high property tax rates. Some towns have really low property tax rates. Several places in NH don't have property tax at all. That's another great thing about NH, it's up to the people.

Eleventh Star

02-13-2012, 10:31 AM

Well, my home state is taking a beating here.

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011/NY

New York is by far the least free state in the Union. It has also experienced the most interstate emigration of any state over the last decade. New York has by far the highest taxes in the country. Property, selective sales, individual income, and corporate-income taxes are particularly high. Spending on public welfare, hospitals, electric power, transit, employee retirement, and “other and unallocable” expenses are well above national norms. Only Alaska has more government debt as a percentage of the economy. On personal freedoms, gun laws are extremely restrictive, but marijuana laws are better than average, while tobacco laws are extremely strict, and cigarette taxes are the highest in the country. Motorists are highly regulated, and homeschool regulations are excessive, but nondrug victimless-crimes arrests are low. New York has the strictest health-insurance community-rating regulations in the country, which have wiped out the individual market. Mandated coverages are worse than average but were actually cut back substantially in 2007–2008. Eminent domain abuse is rampant and unchecked. Perversely (in our view), the state has stricter contribution limits for grassroots PACs than for corporate and union PACs. On the positive side, occupational licensing is somewhat better than average.

NY is responsible for making me consider leaving the United States and looking for greener pastures elsewhere in the world (or at least back in the Philippines where my family is from). I've been to Vermont, lovely countryside, and I imagine NH is the same way. If it has just half of the taxes and bureaucracy that NY has, I would love it unconditionally.

On the other side, any liberty minded folk who want to make a stand for liberty in the heart of the beast? Anyone? Anyone at all? After all, NY's state motto is "Excelsior!"

Keith and stuff

02-13-2012, 10:46 AM

On the other side, any liberty minded folk who want to make a stand for liberty in the heart of the beast? Anyone? Anyone at all? After all, NY's state motto is "Excelsior!"

Sorry, DC isn't for me. Neither in NYC. I enjoy visiting, though. I was partying at Time Square during the Super Bowl. It is only a 4 hour or so drive from where I live. It is a 6 hour bus ride or you could take Amtrak.

We have had several movers from the NYC area. FSPers are known to visit NYC, too. Sometimes we even carpool down to NYC for events like book fairs or LibertyFest.

It would be insanely annoying to move from the freest part of the US to the least free. I really enjoy that there are so many street vendors in NYC, though. Of course, I don't buy anything from them but it is nice to know that they are there.

ConCap

02-14-2012, 10:29 AM

I agree that property taxes are the worst of all.

Thanks for your input.

You say you don’t have a sales tax or income tax. The money must come from somewhere. Where?
Is it possible NH would ever have a fair tax with a ¾ vote required to raise it? This could cover all revenue required to run the State and may be do away with property tax.

Keith and stuff

02-14-2012, 10:51 AM

Thanks for your input.

You say you don’t have a sales tax or income tax. The money must come from somewhere. Where?
Is it possible NH would ever have a fair tax with a ¾ vote required to raise it? This could cover all revenue required to run the State and may be do away with property tax.

What is a "fair tax?" The vast majority of the people in NH don't want any new taxes. We like having fewer and lower taxes than other places. As for creating a new sales tax, that would devastate the economy in NH as people regularly travel from ME, VT, MA and CT to shop in NH.

The tax structure is more decentralized in NH than in any other state in the US. Don't we generally like decentralization in government? Most of the property tax rates in NH are up to local people that live in the towns. There are big two meetings several times a year and the people vote on how much they want to spend on the schools and how much they want to spend on everything else. In some towns, people vote to keep property taxes low. In some areas there is no property tax. In some place, people want very high property taxes. So which area you live in and how people feel in that area are very important to determining your property tax bill.

I personally don't like the idea of getting rid of the least centralized tax system in the US and replacing it with the most centralized tax system in the US. The local people of NH know better how to spend money in their communities than the people at the NH state capital do.

tremendoustie

02-14-2012, 10:54 AM

Thanks for your input.

You say you don’t have a sales tax or income tax. The money must come from somewhere. Where?

Property tax. The average rate is about 2%. There's also a 9% restaurant/hotel tax.

Is it possible NH would ever have a fair tax with a ¾ vote required to raise it? This could cover all revenue required to run the State and may be do away with property tax.

If I could snap my fingers today and do away with all property taxes, in exchange for a general sales tax, I'd do it. I always view "switching" taxes to be highly dangerous, however -- the strong likelihood is that if you'd end up with both taxes.

I think the best way forward -- and the one we're pursuing -- is to continually work to reduce both expenditures and taxes.

tremendoustie

02-14-2012, 10:56 AM

What is a "fair tax?" The vast majority of the people in NH don't want any new taxes. We like having fewer and lower taxes than other places. As for creating a new sales tax, that would devastate the economy in NH as people regularly travel from ME, VT, MA and CT to shop in NH.

The tax structure is more decentralized in NH than in any other state in the US. Don't we generally like decentralization in government? Most of the property tax rates in NH are up to local people that live in the towns. There are big two meetings several times a year and the people vote on how much they want to spend on the schools and how much they want to spend on everything else. In some towns, people vote to keep property taxes low. In some areas there is no property tax. In some place, people want very high property taxes. So which area you live in and how people feel in that area are very important to determining your property tax bill.

I personally don't like the idea of getting rid of the least centralized tax system in the US and replacing it with the most centralized tax system in the US. The local people of NH know better how to spend money in their communities than the people at the NH state capital do.

This is true.

I would like to get rid of the state level taxation, and make it all local. Then, I can move somewhere where the rate is at or near 0%! (And the socialists can have their havens too).

tremendoustie

03-08-2012, 08:55 AM

Updated to include super tuesday states!

Note that the second best state is VT, which enjoyed a huge amount of support from NH activists.

Esoteric

03-08-2012, 09:25 AM

Has anyone mentioned that this chart tell us absolutely nothing that the actual results don't, besides which states have higher voter turnout?

tremendoustie

03-08-2012, 04:05 PM

Has anyone mentioned that this chart tell us absolutely nothing that the actual results don't, besides which states have higher voter turnout?

It tells you the percentage of people in each state who understand and care enough about liberty to vote for Ron Paul in the republican primary.

It's a much more positive statement about the overall attitude of the populace, for ron paul to do well in a state with high turnout, than to do well in a state with very low turnout. A small band of fringe enthusiasts can have an impact in a small caucus or low turnout primary, but it takes significant support among the average population to pull a high percentage, even with high turnout.

I can say that almost one in 20 people I meet on the street, including kids, nonvoters, democrats, etc, cared enough about liberty to vote for ron paul in the 2012 republican primary.

No other state is even close. In most, it's far less than 1 in 100.

The point is, if you want to live around people who value liberty, and care enough to do something about it, I encourage you to join us in NH.

Keith and stuff

03-08-2012, 05:25 PM

Updated to include super tuesday states!

Note that the second best state is VT, which enjoyed a huge amount of support from NH activists.

It's true. The NH Ron Paul campaign helped out in ME and VT. The grassroots also helped out. VT activists also helped out in NH, as did MA activists, NY activists and so on. There is lots of helping going on :)

There were 5 of us at the polling location in VT where I stood and I don't think any of us had ever met each other before. We all got along and had a good time, though :)

Crotale

03-09-2012, 01:01 PM

For balance the this video should be added to the OP:

This lady lives in New Hampshire (she says so in the video)....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIDHNqUTPM&feature=g-u-u&context=G2550d00FUAAAAAAADAA

^A huge reason not to move to NH if there ever was one. :p

(Btw, I support the FSP and think it's a great idea, I'm not being serious. :))

Aden

03-09-2012, 03:27 PM

I think income taxes are the worst because you can't escape them. At least you can try to escape sales taxes (shop less, black market, travel to state without them) and property taxes (don't own property). But you have to work. NH is cool because there are no sales and income taxes. However, if there was only one tax, I'd prefer sales tax (leaving income and property untouched).

A few weeks ago I made a rant in the economic forums about being raked over the coals by taxes. After I made that post, I brainstormed how to reduce my tax bill. I decided to figure out which states have no income tax. After examining the mean and median wages for our lines of work, and comparing the cost of living among states, I narrowed our choices down to three states. New Hampshire was one of those states. Knowing that the FSP is up there, I went on YouTube and FSP-related websites to give the project a real look. Needless to say, I am very impressed with New Hampshire , and we sent out resumes this week.

I've seen Free Staters on these forums for four years now, but tended to blow them off. This past week I decided to see what they were all about. If you are reading this, and have yet to investigate the FSP, then go to YouTube and watch some videos. Also, I just watched this documentary, and recommend you do the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEPLUQNwU6w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm6Y9Hm8UyM

pahs1994

03-09-2012, 04:12 PM

Keith and stuff

03-09-2012, 04:27 PM

I have been thinking a lot about the FSP. But i fear that mass. democrats would eventually over run that state. I have been using election maps as one tool to try to locate a suitable area to move to but i am not sure what to look for really.

There is no indication that that is happening or will happen. MA Democrats are far more likely to make fun of New Hampshire for being Cow Hampshire, being too Republican, being too conservative, being backwards, being kooky or being libertarian than to move to NH. MA Democrats are more likely to move to FL than NH. Besides, the moving tend has actually slowed down recently. The majority of people that move from MA to NH cite lower taxes, less liberals or a lower cost of living as the reasons for moving.

Remember, NH has had more freedom than MA since the 1700s. NH still has more more Republicans than Democrats at something like 29% to 28%. MA is more like 12% Republican and 35% Democrat. The Independents in NH tend to be financially conservative and socially moderate to liberal. The Independents in MA tend to be fiscally moderate and socially moderate to liberal.

LittleLightShining

03-09-2012, 04:44 PM

Updated to include super tuesday states!

Note that the second best state is VT, which enjoyed a huge amount of support from NH activists.

In no way do I want to discount the help we got from New Hampshire folks, but the wins for Ron Paul came from places they did not work in. Keith, I'm not sure I thanked you for coming over or not. So, thanks! I wish we would have been able to hook up with some of the NH folks from the southern areas earlier. We needed more help sooner down there.

We had very low voter turnout in Vermont.

pahs1994

03-09-2012, 04:54 PM

thanks for the info. what towns are free staters moving to? or are they all spread out?

Keith and stuff

03-09-2012, 05:04 PM

thanks for the info. what towns are free staters moving to? or are they all spread out?

They are moving all over but mostly to places in central and southern NH. Places of note include Manchester where 100-200 free staters live. It is the largest city in NH. Also, Keene, where 25-50 free staters live. It is a small city with only 23k or so people and a college with around 5k students. It is not connected to any interstates and doesn't have a very larger job market, like Manchester. However, Keene is without question the liberty media capital of the world.

Another notable community is Grafton. It is a small town of around 1500 people. It is 25-50 minutes from the Lebanon/Hanover area (where the top college and the top hospital in NH are located) and 40-60 minutes from Concord, the state capital and 3rd largest city in NH. What is significant about Grafton is that it was already one of the most libertarians places in NH before the FSP started and several times more free staters per capita have moved to Grafton than anywhere else. It is very likely one of the freest places in the US and certainly one of the freest places with year round roads and high speed internet for residence.

Crotale

03-10-2012, 05:00 AM

I have been thinking a lot about the FSP. But i fear that mass. democrats would eventually over run that state. I have been using election maps as one tool to try to locate a suitable area to move to but i am not sure what to look for really.

Move to New Hampshire. At least you'll be around loads of liberty minded folk like yourself.

Captain Shays

03-10-2012, 07:01 AM

AZ is better than NJ. Moving to AZ or MT for liberty seems silly though. Heck, if you just want to retire somewhere warmer than NJ, move to NV, FL or TX. VA would also work.

Freedom in the 50 States Ranking:
1. NH
6. NV
9. VA
11. FL
14. TX
22. AZ
29. MT
49. NJ

Wow. I live in the 49th worst state for freedom in the country. You guys should respect me more now. I am here on the front lines. In fact, maybe I'm behind enemy lines. Send food and ammo right away. Don't forget the money

Captain Shays

03-10-2012, 07:04 AM

They are moving all over but mostly to places in central and southern NH. Places of note include Manchester where 100-200 free staters live. It is the largest city in NH. Also, Keene, where 25-50 free staters live. It is a small city with only 23k or so people and a college with around 5k students. It is not connected to any interstates and doesn't have a very larger job market, like Manchester. However, Keene is without question the liberty media capital of the world.

Another notable community is Grafton. It is a small town of around 1500 people. It is 25-50 minutes from the Lebanon/Hanover area (where the top college and the top hospital in NH are located) and 40-60 minutes from Concord, the state capital and 3rd largest city in NH. What is significant about Grafton is that it was already one of the most libertarians places in NH before the FSP started and several times more free staters per capita have moved to Grafton than anywhere else. It is very likely one of the freest places in the US and certainly one of the freest places with year round roads and high speed internet for residence.

Sounds great but it's way too frigging cold up there. My wife is from South Carolina and she would never want to live up there.

mport1

03-10-2012, 07:19 AM

NH is already ranked the most free state and this is without the Free State Project having even started (after 20,000 it begins). With 1,000 early movers they are already making HUGE progress. With 20x the current number the results would be incredible.

Keith and stuff

03-21-2012, 08:42 PM

Sounds great but it's way too frigging cold up there. My wife is from South Carolina and she would never want to live up there.

We have something called snowbirds in New England. They live here 6 to 10 months a year and somewhere warmer like FL or drive an RV around the rest of the year. 2 of the guys that I know here that moved from FL have wives that visit FL a couple months a year. I guess your wife could visit SC :)

You may be right, but maybe y'all can come visit. Give it a try. Maybe come during Liberty Forum, which is held during the winter in NH. Come see how bad it is and talk to folks that have made the move. Hear us out :)

WilliamShrugged

03-21-2012, 09:38 PM

Im noticing a nice trend lately. I go and check to see if people are still moving their that signed up through the FSP. 1 by 1 they are doing it. Don't worry cold is not the problem for me. money and job is my issue. I just started my job here in Idaho as a bank teller and plan to improve and work up to loans. If i save my money till then i should be more comfortable with my move. If i really start to see progress there or i just get tired of Idaho then i will go sooner.

tremendoustie

03-21-2012, 10:41 PM

Sounds great but it's way too frigging cold up there. My wife is from South Carolina and she would never want to live up there.

Today's daytime highs:
Nashua: 82
Portsmouth: 80
Manchester: 84

Las Vegas: 72
Houston: 72
Miami: 83

Now, wanna take any bets on who's going to have a summer in the 70s and 80s, and who's going to be spending daytime hours camped in front of air conditioners come July? Who's going to be enjoying spectacular fall foliage, and who's going to be dodging hurricanes?

Just sayin'. I think many folks in the south have a completely unrealistic vision of what weather in the north is actually like. The statists, I don't mind. I'm just fine with them thinking it's a frozen iceblock as far as I'm concerned.

But I'd like to disabuse nice folks like you of these notions, because we actually want your company.

It really is gorgeous here.

Anti Federalist

03-21-2012, 11:57 PM

Anti Federalist

03-22-2012, 12:00 AM

Today's daytime highs:
Nashua: 82
Portsmouth: 80
Manchester: 84

Las Vegas: 72
Houston: 72
Miami: 83

Now, wanna take any bets on who's going to have a summer in the 70s and 80s, and who's going to be spending daytime hours camped in front of air conditioners come July? Who's going to be enjoying spectacular fall foliage, and who's going to be dodging hurricanes?

Just sayin'. I think many folks in the south have a completely unrealistic vision of what weather in the north is actually like. The statists, I don't mind. I'm just fine with them thinking it's a frozen iceblock as far as I'm concerned.

But I'd like to disabuse nice folks like you of these notions, because we actually want your company.

It really is gorgeous here.

This.

+rep

C'mon, you people never heard of coats and long johns?

Seriously, I'm a big guy and used to and enjoy the cold.

That said, I get by pretty much all winter long with an insulated flannel shirt and cap.

Anti Federalist

03-22-2012, 12:02 AM

I have been thinking a lot about the FSP. But i fear that mass. democrats would eventually over run that state. I have been using election maps as one tool to try to locate a suitable area to move to but i am not sure what to look for really.

Joy.

(whisper)

The Massholes are bypassing NH and going up to Maine, where they have the high taxes that make them comfortable.

Anti Federalist

03-22-2012, 12:05 AM

PM if I can help out with information.

I think income taxes are the worst because you can't escape them. At least you can try to escape sales taxes (shop less, black market, travel to state without them) and property taxes (don't own property). But you have to work. NH is cool because there are no sales and income taxes. However, if there was only one tax, I'd prefer sales tax (leaving income and property untouched).

A few weeks ago I made a rant in the economic forums about being raked over the coals by taxes. After I made that post, I brainstormed how to reduce my tax bill. I decided to figure out which states have no income tax. After examining the mean and median wages for our lines of work, and comparing the cost of living among states, I narrowed our choices down to three states. New Hampshire was one of those states. Knowing that the FSP is up there, I went on YouTube and FSP-related websites to give the project a real look. Needless to say, I am very impressed with New Hampshire , and we sent out resumes this week.

I've seen Free Staters on these forums for four years now, but tended to blow them off. This past week I decided to see what they were all about. If you are reading this, and have yet to investigate the FSP, then go to YouTube and watch some videos. Also, I just watched this documentary, and recommend you do the same.

Anti Federalist

03-22-2012, 12:06 AM

And that was with, how many people still on the ballot?

It tells you the percentage of people in each state who understand and care enough about liberty to vote for Ron Paul in the republican primary.

It's a much more positive statement about the overall attitude of the populace, for ron paul to do well in a state with high turnout, than to do well in a state with very low turnout. A small band of fringe enthusiasts can have an impact in a small caucus or low turnout primary, but it takes significant support among the average population to pull a high percentage, even with high turnout.

I can say that almost one in 20 people I meet on the street, including kids, nonvoters, democrats, etc, cared enough about liberty to vote for ron paul in the 2012 republican primary.

No other state is even close. In most, it's far less than 1 in 100.

The point is, if you want to live around people who value liberty, and care enough to do something about it, I encourage you to join us in NH.

tremendoustie

03-22-2012, 08:03 AM

They are moving all over but mostly to places in central and southern NH. Places of note include Manchester where 100-200 free staters live. It is the largest city in NH. Also, Keene, where 25-50 free staters live. It is a small city with only 23k or so people and a college with around 5k students. It is not connected to any interstates and doesn't have a very larger job market, like Manchester. However, Keene is without question the liberty media capital of the world.

Another notable community is Grafton. It is a small town of around 1500 people. It is 25-50 minutes from the Lebanon/Hanover area (where the top college and the top hospital in NH are located) and 40-60 minutes from Concord, the state capital and 3rd largest city in NH. What is significant about Grafton is that it was already one of the most libertarians places in NH before the FSP started and several times more free staters per capita have moved to Grafton than anywhere else. It is very likely one of the freest places in the US and certainly one of the freest places with year round roads and high speed internet for residence.

Don't forget, there are a ton of people in Nashua and the Seacoast. In Nashua, we have two get-togethers and a hacker-space open house every week, each of which has a dozen people show up, and they're not the same people.

The seacoast is gorgeous. That probably would have been our first choice, if it had been where we found work.

tremendoustie

03-22-2012, 08:05 AM

And that was with, how many people still on the ballot?

Exactly right. If Huntsman had been out, I think something like 50% of his support would have gone to Paul.

I was doing phone banking -- Paul was by far the most popular second choice of huntsman supporters.

tfurrh

03-22-2012, 08:09 AM

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs38/i/2008/346/2/3/Cedar_Waxwing_by_LakeFX.jpg

Cedar Waxwing. My favorite bird. I love when they come through - about this time - every year. They love my Holly Tree.

tremendoustie

03-22-2012, 08:15 AM

Sounds great but it's way too frigging cold up there. My wife is from South Carolina and she would never want to live up there.

Wait, I just put 2&2 together -- you live in NJ?!

Come visit.

Forecast daytime high today in my town: 81 and Sunny
Newark: Fog and 77.

The average daytime high in Nashua in January and February is 33 and 37.
In Newark it's 39 and 42.

Not exactly a shocking change, if you ask me.

Plus, the flip side is, you'd be a bit more comfortable in the summer:
Nashua in June, July, and August: 77, 83, 81
Newark: 82, 86, 84

Keith and stuff

03-22-2012, 09:19 AM

And that was with, how many people still on the ballot?

30 Republicans and 14 Democrats were on the ballot in NH. The only even remotely comparable state is LA where 8 Republicans are on the Primary ballot according to the sample ballot. I guess we will just wait and see if Ron Paul does better in the vote in LA than in NH.

Don't forget, there are a ton of people in Nashua and the Seacoast. In Nashua, we have two get-togethers and a hacker-space open house every week, each of which has a dozen people show up, and they're not the same people.

The seacoast is gorgeous. That probably would have been our first choice, if it had been where we found work.
Sure, you are correct. There are also liberty activists in the Lakes Region, the Upper Valley, the Concord area, the North Country and so on :) I here there is at least one liberty loving Ron Paul supporter in Salem.

Manchester and Nashua are only 20-35 minutes away from each other, anyway. I remember when I used to live in a big city, sometimes it would take almost an hour to get from point A to point B. As for Nashua, a Ron Paul supporter is on the city school board. He didn't even really try to get the seat. There was an upcoming opening and he was popular in the community. He was asked to run for it. It guess it pays off to get involved with your community and volunteer with several different local organizations.

tremendoustie

03-22-2012, 02:32 PM

Correction: The high was 86 today. :cool:

Crotale

03-22-2012, 05:18 PM

Alright Lake, you want a photo war, you've got it :cool:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RGGB9xZefFs/THv9n07y9hI/AAAAAAAAA6A/XZ2788ncEio/s1600/WhiteMountainNationalForest.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3628/3354391085_18d7041fb9.jpg
http://www.nhmade.com/images/nh_farm_scene.jpg

Don't migrate to Britain, it's a statist hell-hole. However, I do believe that we have the most beautiful countryside here in Blighty. :)

http://www.foreveryoungadult.com/wp-content/upload/2010/05/english-countryside.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/tm/2008/10/sheffield_park428x269_to_468x312.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01974/PF-Yorkshire-dales_1974291i.jpg
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/281764/281764,1295639403,2/stock-photo-typical-landscape-in-yorkshire-dales-national-park-in-great-britain-70127248.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01621/lake-district_1621384c.jpg

Keith and stuff

06-27-2012, 06:27 PM

I updated my thread with the final numbers and even a pretty chart. Feel free to update your thread now :)
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?360037-Percentage-of-total-state-population-voting-for-Ron-Paul-compared

Anti Federalist

06-28-2012, 02:05 PM

Becomes very clear why it was called New England, eh?

Don't migrate to Britain, it's a statist hell-hole. However, I do believe that we have the most beautiful countryside here in Blighty. :)

http://www.foreveryoungadult.com/wp-content/upload/2010/05/english-countryside.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/tm/2008/10/sheffield_park428x269_to_468x312.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01974/PF-Yorkshire-dales_1974291i.jpg
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/281764/281764,1295639403,2/stock-photo-typical-landscape-in-yorkshire-dales-national-park-in-great-britain-70127248.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01621/lake-district_1621384c.jpg