Delegate Strategy Question

[winston_blade]

Does RP have to win the popular vote, whether it be in a caucus or primary, in five different states, or does he have to have the majority of delegates in five of the states at the convention regardless of who actually won the state? This has confused me quite a bit.

[affa]

"the plurality of delegates", which can be interpreted many ways.

[LatinsforPaul]

"the plurality of delegates", which can be interpreted many ways.

My money is on Dr. Paul to have "the pluralty of delegates" in the following states...

Alaska
Idaho
Iowa
Louisiana
Maine
Minnesotta
Montana
Nevada
North Dakota
Oregon
Pennsylvania
South Dakota
Virginia
Washington

[brendan.orourke]

I still don't understand how all this delegate shit works.

[mmadness]

Check delegates thread at top of Grassroots Central (or quick link in my sig).

[Paul Or Nothing II]

I think the original question is like -
Let's say we "win" 5+ states by delegate-count but don't win any state by popular-vote & yet amass highest total number of delegates (1144+) - What then? :confused:

[mmadness]

I think the original question is like -
Let's say we "win" 5+ states by delegate-count but don't win any state by popular-vote & yet amass highest total number of delegates (1144+) - What then? :confused:

We win. Unless some of those delegates are pledged to another candidate, in which case they can become unpledged and vote for RP in later voting rounds at the RNC.

[robertwerden]

What many people, including other candidates and media talking heads dont realize is, the votes dont matter. Ron Paul could come in dead last place and still get all the delegates. The only thing that matters is the Ron Paul supporters who stay after the vote is over, and get elected as a delegate to the convention. There is a process, and that includes getting elected at the county level, then the state level then the national level.
Most rank and file GOP voters don't stay after the vote to get elected. Ron is organizing the delegate elections very carefully, but it is up to us as voters to become delegates.
When the national convention happens in Tampa, Ron Paul supporters will be delegates for Mitt Romney, Newt and Rick. They will go to the national convention and if they are bound delegates, they will vote for who ever won the State. However if the final total of votes does not reach 1144 for 1 candidate, in most cases delegates are free to change their vote. That is why Ron Paul supporters are becoming delegates for other candidates.

[klamath]

If RP comes in dead last in popular votes and accepts the nomination on delegate deception the movement is dead. I will NOT vote for RP under those circumstances.

[mmadness]

Right. And especially in states where RP does not have a strong following, it's important to have a 2-pronged strategy. Overt delegates for RP, and covert delegates who are "anti-Obama", don't talk about RP, and who are for other candidates. Either way they should be well-dressed/prepared (Robert's Rules of Order).

[mmadness]

If RP comes in dead last in popular votes and accepts the nomination on delegate deception the movement is dead. I will NOT vote for RP under those circumstances.

So you would not have accepted George W. Bush and many other Presidents then? Because they lost the popular vote but won the electoral college, which is what counts.

We are a Republic, not a Democracy. The system is designed this way for a good reason, to prevent the establishment from thwarting the will of the people through money and mainstream media. I'd say our founding fathers were pretty smart.

It would also not be "deception", because we would be playing the game by the rules.

[teacherone]

What many people, including other candidates and media talking heads dont realize is, the votes dont matter. Ron Paul could come in dead last place and still get all the delegates. The only thing that matters is the Ron Paul supporters who stay after the vote is over, and get elected as a delegate to the convention. There is a process, and that includes getting elected at the county level, then the state level then the national level.
Most rank and file GOP voters don't stay after the vote to get elected. Ron is organizing the delegate elections very carefully, but it is up to us as voters to become delegates.
When the national convention happens in Tampa, Ron Paul supporters will be delegates for Mitt Romney, Newt and Rick. They will go to the national convention and if they are bound delegates, they will vote for who ever won the State. However if the final total of votes does not reach 1144 for 1 candidate, in most cases delegates are free to change their vote. That is why Ron Paul supporters are becoming delegates for other candidates.

sadly this fantasy failed to materialize last go around.

[mmadness]

sadly this fantasy failed to materialize last go around.

Last time I checked 2012 isn't 2008. We did get many our people to the RNC, either pledged or unpledged to RP. And there wasn't a brokered convention then. And after RP had suspended his campaign, which did have an effect.

[69360]

It simply is not possible to win the nomination without winning states despite some of the foolishness you might read.

The larger state primaries are all after April 1st and are winner take all with bound delegates.

At some point Gingrich and Santorum will drop out of the race and endorse Romney giving him all their delegates. There won't be a brokered convention because of this.

[Darthbrooklyn]

If RP comes in dead last in popular votes and accepts the nomination on delegate deception the movement is dead. I will NOT vote for RP under those circumstances.

Deception? Are you serious? Its playing by the rules and the other candidates are allowed to try to get convention delegates as well.. If they dont have the organization to do it, thats their problem..

[mmadness]

It simply is not possible to win the nomination without winning states despite some of the foolishness you might read.

The larger state primaries are all after April 1st and are winner take all with bound delegates.

At some point Gingrich and Santorum will drop out of the race and endorse Romney giving him all their delegates.

It is important to win states, but assuming that Gingrich or Santorum will drop out and endorse Romney is just guessing at this point. It could end up being a brokered convention.

If one candidate gets a majority of the delegates before then, then fair credit to them. But until then, we ain't seen nothing yet.

[newbitech]

So you would not have accepted George W. Bush and many other Presidents then? Because they lost the popular vote but won the electoral college, which is what counts.

We are a Republic, not a Democracy. The system is designed this way for a good reason, to prevent the establishment from thwarting the will of the people through money and mainstream media. I'd say our founding fathers were pretty smart.

It would also not be "deception", because we would be playing the game by the rules.

I think the problem is the confusion between popular and majority.

52% vs 48% - both are popular

40% vs 28% vs 20% vs 12% - 40% is popular 28% is not, 20% is not, 12% is not.

[newbitech]

Deception? Are you serious? Its playing by the rules and the other candidates are allowed to try to get convention delegates as well.. If they dont have the organization to do it, thats their problem..

lobbyist play by the rules. Crony capitalist play by the rules. You good with that?

[ross11988]

If RP comes in dead last in popular votes and accepts the nomination on delegate deception the movement is dead. I will NOT vote for RP under those circumstances.


That makes no sense and i hope that was a joke considering how long you've been a member. So your saying it's Ron Paul's fault that his supporters are smarter then most people and go out of their way to run as delegate because that's how the system works?

[jctii0]

lobbyist play by the rules. Crony capitalist play by the rules. You good with that?

Except that lobbyists bribe lawmakers with billions of dollars to change the rules to suit their needs.

[newbitech]

That makes no sense and i hope that was a joke considering how long you've been a member. So your saying it's Ron Paul's fault that his supporters are smarter then most people and go out of their way to run as delegate because that's how the system works?

link? LOL I mean I agree, Ron Paul supporters dig for the truth and get to the bottom of things(except for the delegate process for some strange reason), but have you seen the polls? Most of Ron Paul's support come from uneducated, young, poor people.

[Sematary]

If RP comes in dead last in popular votes and accepts the nomination on delegate deception the movement is dead. I will NOT vote for RP under those circumstances.

I would vote for Ron Paul under those circumstances because it is a legitimate political strategy and under ANY circumstances ai would prefer Ron to be my president Also, if it is fair for the gop and the media to lie to voters and cause them to vote for a different candidate then I feel it is perfectly fair to use the process as it is currently set up to try and win the nomination through a brokered convention

[newbitech]

Except that lobbyists bribe lawmakers with billions of dollars to change the rules to suit their needs.

yeah, but it's legal. Look, I understand that it's within the rules. Great, but really how do you like telling people their vote and their voice are silenced?

We the people vs we the 1144 Ron Paul delegates. Not gonna be the kind of movement we want.

[mmadness]

I think the problem is the confusion between popular and majority.

52% vs 48% - both are popular

40% vs 28% vs 20% vs 12% - 40% is popular 28% is not, 20% is not, 12% is not.

Slippery slope. Either you have the delegates or you don't. Them's the rules of the game.

The founding fathers designed it this way so that a tireless, enthusiastic minority can change the establishment.

[mmadness]

yeah, but it's legal. Look, I understand that it's within the rules. Great, but really how do you like telling people their vote and their voice are silenced?

We the people vs we the 1144 Ron Paul delegates. Not gonna be the kind of movement we want.

OK, so what exactly is the kind of movement we want? Thanks for speaking for me and others by the way. :rolleyes:

If you're not willing to accept a solution (probably the most likely) that leads to RP being the nominee, then why?

[alucard13mmfmj]

It simply is not possible to win the nomination without winning states despite some of the foolishness you might read.

The larger state primaries are all after April 1st and are winner take all with bound delegates.

At some point Gingrich and Santorum will drop out of the race and endorse Romney giving him all their delegates. There won't be a brokered convention because of this.

that is what i think will be happening... there is no other way why the other candidates are winning and taking turns taking turns being alpha male. its not in their interest to have a brokered convention and they will do everything to stop it from happening. santorum and newt is just there to go all the way and have some delegates to pledge to romney =|.

[69360]

It is important to win states, but assuming that Gingrich or Santorum will drop out and endorse Romney is just guessing at this point. It could end up being a brokered convention.

If one candidate gets a majority of the delegates before then, then fair credit to them. But until then, we ain't seen nothing yet.

Even assuming the very slim possibility of a contested convention, Ron would not win at the convention. The others would band together and cut a deal.

All this delegate strategy is just talk and completely ignores how presidential politics work in this country. Romney played the game, dropped out when he was told last time and got his place as standard bearer for the next election. Santorum and Gingrich will do the same when they are told for their shot next time or an administration position.

Obama and Clinton fought a nasty primary and then she endorsed Obama for SOS, that's how the game is played.

[newbitech]

Slippery slope. Either you have the delegates or you don't. Them's the rules of the game.

The founding fathers designed it this way so that a tireless, enthusiastic minority can change the establishment.

Sam Adams said this in reference to starting a bloody revolution. You want that? Cause if you don't your tireless minority needs to become the majority.

That's not a slippery slope, them the rules. You don't win the nomination without popular support. You need a majority to win.

Popular (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/popular) -

of, pertaining to,or representing the people, especially the common people


28% is NOT representing the people.

Majority (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/majority) -

a number of voters or votes, jurors,or others in agreement, constituting more than half of the total number.


obviously he needs delegates.

[jctii0]

yeah, but it's legal. Look, I understand that it's within the rules. Great, but really how do you like telling people their vote and their voice are silenced?


I have no problem at all. If others are too ignorant to educate themselves about a process that has been in place for years, that's not my problem.

[newbitech]

Even assuming the very slim possibility of a contested convention, Ron would not win at the convention. The others would band together and cut a deal.

All this delegate strategy is just talk and completely ignores how presidential politics work in this country. Romney played the game, dropped out when he was told last time and got his place as standard bearer for the next election. Santorum and Gingrich will do the same when they are told for their shot next time or an administration position.

Obama and Clinton fought a nasty primary and then she endorsed Obama for SOS, that's how the game is played.

maybe now you will see why I was so pissed at skipping Florida since "it wasn't worth it because of delegate math" or "it cost too much to get delegates there".

[tbone717]

It is important to win states, but assuming that Gingrich or Santorum will drop out and endorse Romney is just guessing at this point. It could end up being a brokered convention.

If one candidate gets a majority of the delegates before then, then fair credit to them. But until then, we ain't seen nothing yet.

Given a situation where that all four candidates stay in the end, on the first ballot there will be bound and unbound delegates. Now let's say that the estimates are that Romney would fall 200 delegates short of being the nominee. It is at that point prior to the first vote that Santorum and/or Newt can go to their unbound delegates (that is the people they know that are supporting them) and ask them to support Romney instead of themselves. The first ballot is read, Romney wins and they drop the confetti and balloons.

[thelaibon]

When the national convention happens in Tampa, Ron Paul supporters will be delegates for Mitt Romney, Newt and Rick. They will go to the national convention and if they are bound delegates, they will vote for who ever won the State. However if the final total of votes does not reach 1144 for 1 candidate, in most cases delegates are free to change their vote. That is why Ron Paul supporters are becoming delegates for other candidates.
Is this what is referred to as the "delegate stealth strategy?" sort of pretending to be delegates for other candidates, only to fool everyone later & support RP?

[newbitech]

I have no problem at all. If others are too ignorant to educate them about the process that has been in place for years, that's not my problem.

works both ways. and to be honest, that is the kind of attitude I hear from people who won't support Ron Paul because his ideas would put them at a disadvantage. So really, if I told you that your voice doesn't matter, your vote doesn't count, can I expect you to not throw a hissy fit when the government taxes your taxes, drafts you in to the next war, and devalues your currency so that you can't afford to live on one income?

Cause that is what happens when people have no voice and no vote.

Let's be clear, we are talking about changing the role of government in this country. That isn't going to happen if 75-80% of the people are perfectly fine with the role and possibly want to expand it.

[tbone717]

Is this what is referred to as the "delegate stealth strategy?" sort of pretending to be delegates for other candidates, only to fool everyone later & support RP?

Yes. But the other candidates also have people running for delegate. A lot of times those people are well know in their community - local committeemen, township supervisors, etc. So even though we may be able to get some Paul supporters in as delegates for Romney, the chance of the convention going to a second ballot are very very very slim.

[69360]

maybe now you will see why I was so pissed at skipping Florida since "it wasn't worth it because of delegate math" or "it cost too much to get delegates there".

No, the results would have been the same, the campaign just would have went broke.

[robertwerden]

In 2008 McCain won the nomination by getting enough delegates. This time around due to the way the delegates are awarded, a national convention where no one has enough delegates is what we are shooting for. If someone wins the 1144 before Tampa, then there is no way the media will report the brokered convention fairly. They would label us as insurgent and getting the nomination would be impossible.
However if the national convention comes and no one has 1144, then the media will prepare the viewing public about the rules and the country will watch the multiple rounds of voting as if it was a reality tv show, which is exactly what we want to happen. When Ron Paul wins on the second round of voting, the American public will have already be educated on how the delegate process really works and will accept the final vote and chalk it up to a lesson learned in not paying enough attention to the rules that we used to our advantage.

[klamath]

So you would not have accepted George W. Bush and many other Presidents then? Because they lost the popular vote but won the electoral college, which is what counts.

We are a Republic, not a Democracy. The system is designed this way for a good reason, to prevent the establishment from thwarting the will of the people through money and mainstream media. I'd say our founding fathers were pretty smart.

It would also not be "deception", because we would be playing the game by the rules.
Do you realize how hypocritical that that I bolded is? Here you have the will of the people by 82% against RP and you want the delegate to sneak in and give the election to him?
If RP was only .5 to 5% percent behind in popular vote then it is close enough to go either way. Would you accept and be happy if rp won the nomination and went on the win the popular vote by 65 to 35%, all the states and then you find out the slate of electors were really Obama supporters and gave him the win? Electors are not bound you know. This would be legal.

[Travlyr]

Is this what is referred to as the "delegate stealth strategy?" sort of pretending to be delegates for other candidates, only to fool everyone later & support RP?
No. Not in our caucus anyway. There was a straw vote (Ron Paul won btw), precinct delegates were elected to go to the county assembly, at the county assembly delegates will be elected to go the the State Assembly, and State delegates will be elected at that time. No delegates are yet bound... perhaps a few across the State are, but at least in our county ... that's the way I understand it.

[klamath]

That makes no sense and i hope that was a joke considering how long you've been a member. So your saying it's Ron Paul's fault that his supporters are smarter then most people and go out of their way to run as delegate because that's how the system works?
Because RP will not change his presentation to get vote but he would be ok with standing up and saying "I accept the nomination" knowing full well that the delegaes that just voted him in lied through their teeth ot get there. No I would not vote for RP then.

[newbitech]

No, the results would have been the same, the campaign just would have went broke.

as opposed to the results being the same and the campaign being broke now?

As I see it, the campaign spending has not influenced this election AT ALL. Why? Because the money was apparently spent trying to run a strategy that didn't require spending money, or at least the kind of money that his been burnt up.

It wasn't so much that the money wasn't spent here, it was the fact that the campaign wasn't even willing to open an office or hold rallies or *GASP* fundraising in one of the TOP THREE donating states to the campaign in the country. 117k Ron Paul supporters. If only 10% donated $10 dollars for the purpose of opening 10 campaign offices, you have an office in all 10 of the major metro areas with a 11.7k budget minus cost of renting the office and staff for a month. That would have made a HUGE difference.

In fact, I THOUGHT that is what campaigns do. Nope, no delegates, NO CAMPAIGN. uuggghh..

[gerryb]

Why vote for any candidate, EVER?

In a Primary, only a few tens of thousand out of several million residents of each state participate.
In a General, usually less than half of the residents of each state participate.

For congressional races, around 5% of the population participates in the primary.

For Judges, Less than 1% of the population participates.


Why vote at all when the populace doesn't support your candidate at all?

[klamath]

Slippery slope. Either you have the delegates or you don't. Them's the rules of the game.

The founding fathers designed it this way so that a tireless, enthusiastic minority can change the establishment.
The founding fathers did not set up the party nomination process.

[jointhefightforfreedom]

I would vote for Ron Paul under those circumstances because it is a legitimate political strategy and under ANY circumstances ai would prefer Ron to be my president Also, if it is fair for the gop and the media to lie to voters and cause them to vote for a different candidate then I feel it is perfectly fair to use the process as it is currently set up to try and win the nomination through a brokered convention

Remember , We are playing under the private organization rules AKA the GOP !
The establishment change their rules every damn year within the GOP to help keep them in power.

Primary election is not the same as a General Election.
Primary election is unfair Biased and any other word you want to use to describe it!

The GOP primary is a private organizations rules of electing a representative to RUN for POTUS.
The GOP and the DEMS have both lobbied forever to maintain general election rules to keep it a 2 party system.

Sometimes you take the moral high ground and "Turn the other Cheek"
But sometimes You become a Revolutionary and fight against oppression buy starting a revolution!

[JK/SEA]

What many people, including other candidates and media talking heads dont realize is, the votes dont matter. Ron Paul could come in dead last place and still get all the delegates. The only thing that matters is the Ron Paul supporters who stay after the vote is over, and get elected as a delegate to the convention. There is a process, and that includes getting elected at the county level, then the state level then the national level.
Most rank and file GOP voters don't stay after the vote to get elected. Ron is organizing the delegate elections very carefully, but it is up to us as voters to become delegates.
When the national convention happens in Tampa, Ron Paul supporters will be delegates for Mitt Romney, Newt and Rick. They will go to the national convention and if they are bound delegates, they will vote for who ever won the State. However if the final total of votes does not reach 1144 for 1 candidate, in most cases delegates are free to change their vote. That is why Ron Paul supporters are becoming delegates for other candidates.


DAMN!...finally someone else 'gets it'...yes yes yes...

It is IMPERATIVE that we dominate the COUNTY GOP Conventions by VOLUNTEERING to fill those delegate and ALTERNATE DELEGATE spots, but YOU HAVE TO STAY after the votes are announced and not fall for their trick of passing an ADJOURN vote. Stick around. Thats when the REAL process takes place.

I wish people who support Ron Paul would take 5 minutes and LEARN the Delegate process.

The dog and pony show and John Kings magic board are not the final say. Your caucus meeting Chairperson should explain all this, but you have to remember, these people who run these meetings are establishment GOP, and would rather fill these delegate spots with other GOP establishment 'friends'....get the picture?

[69360]

DAMN!...finally someone else 'gets it'...yes yes yes...

It is IMPERATIVE that we dominate the COUNTY GOP Conventions by VOLUNTEERING to fill those delegate and ALTERNATE DELEGATE spots.

I wish people who support Ron Paul would take 5 minutes and LEARN the Delegate process.

The dog and pony show and John Kings magic board are not the final say. Your caucus meeting Chairperson should explain all this, but you have to remember, these people who run these meetings are establishment GOP, and would rather fill these delegate spots with other GOP establishment 'friends'....get the picture?

People understand it. It won't work, for the reasons already discussed in this thread. As the race winds downs candidates will drop and endorse transfering their delegates in exchange for political power like vp, sos or presumed nominee for the next election. That's how politics works.

[maxoutco]

What many people, including other candidates and media talking heads dont realize is, the votes dont matter. Ron Paul could come in dead last place and still get all the delegates. The only thing that matters is the Ron Paul supporters who stay after the vote is over, and get elected as a delegate to the convention. There is a process, and that includes getting elected at the county level, then the state level then the national level.
Most rank and file GOP voters don't stay after the vote to get elected. Ron is organizing the delegate elections very carefully, but it is up to us as voters to become delegates.
When the national convention happens in Tampa, Ron Paul supporters will be delegates for Mitt Romney, Newt and Rick. They will go to the national convention and if they are bound delegates, they will vote for who ever won the State. However if the final total of votes does not reach 1144 for 1 candidate, in most cases delegates are free to change their vote. That is why Ron Paul supporters are becoming delegates for other candidates.

Right now I am a county delegate and a state alternate. As an state alternate or a county delegate, is there any way I can stop our districts state delegate (Santorum Supporter) from going to the national level by vote at the county or state level?

[tbone717]

People understand it. It won't work, for the reasons already discussed in this thread. As the race winds downs candidates will drop and endorse transfering their delegates in exchange for political power like vp, sos or presumed nominee for the next election. That's how politics works.

Exactly, this needs to be stressed. The only way a delegate strategy will truly work is if Paul falls just short of the number needed for nomination on the first ballot and the remaining three combined do not have enough for a first ballot nomination. Otherwise, whoever is in the lead will get unbound delegates from one of the remaining opponents so they can win on the first ballot

[gerryb]

People understand it. It won't work, for the reasons already discussed in this thread. As the race winds downs candidates will drop and endorse transfering their delegates in exchange for political power like vp, sos or presumed nominee for the next election. That's how politics works.

You're missing the point entirely.

If we are the delegates, when the other candidates drop out.. Do you really think we're all of a sudden going to say "Oh! I guess that means I should support Romney(or whoever) now!"

We need to take over the GOP Committee positions, too, and this is a good way to gain experience for doing that.

[libertythor]

Do you realize how hypocritical that that I bolded is? Here you have the will of the people by 82% against RP and you want the delegate to sneak in and give the election to him?
If RP was only .5 to 5% percent behind in popular vote then it is close enough to go either way. Would you accept and be happy if rp won the nomination and went on the win the popular vote by 65 to 35%, all the states and then you find out the slate of electors were really Obama supporters and gave him the win? Electors are not bound you know. This would be legal.

The rules of the Republican Party, a private organization, don't call for majority rule with the popular vote. For example, in Iowa the caucus vote is irrelevant to the delegate vote.

Every party has its own process. In fact, the primaries don't matter at all in the Libertarian Party. It is all done by delegate selection. The Republican Party uses a hybrid process that varies state by state.

Democracy and majority rules doesn't apply absolutely to the GOP. Sorry, but the US isn't a democracy, and the GOP isn't a democracy.

[JK/SEA]

People understand it. It won't work, for the reasons already discussed in this thread. As the race winds downs candidates will drop and endorse transfering their delegates in exchange for political power like vp, sos or presumed nominee for the next election. That's how politics works.

uh..no..when you get a majority of Paul delegates at your local, county GOP convention, you take control, you change the rules, you give Ron Paul ALL the delegates.

Problem is as i see it is it seems people don't understand the current rules, and listen to John King and Gloria Borger too much.

[maxoutco]

Right now I am a county delegate and a state alternate. As an state alternate or a county delegate, is there any way I can stop our districts state delegate (Santorum Supporter) from going to the national level by vote at the county or state level?

bump

[giovannile07]

Because RP will not change his presentation to get vote but he would be ok with standing up and saying "I accept the nomination" knowing full well that the delegaes that just voted him in lied through their teeth ot get there. No I would not vote for RP then.
What lied through their teeth? Whoever said they lied through their teeth?

[klamath]

The rules of the Republican Party, a private organization, don't call for majority rule with the popular vote. For example, in Iowa the caucus vote is irrelevant to the delegate vote.

Every party has its own process. In fact, the primaries don't matter at all in the Libertarian Party. It is all done by delegate selection. The Republican Party uses a hybrid process that varies state by state.

Democracy and majority rules doesn't apply absolutely to the GOP. Sorry, but the US isn't a democracy, and the GOP isn't a democracy. and neither does the general election call for a majority. The electors can vote for anyone they please. However going against the overwhelming majority of the voters will ensure a failed stategy. It is FAILURE of leadershp that you couldn't get a majority of the electorate to see your ideas are correct. A failure of leadship will make a failure of the administration. If RP wants to win by deception I will not be voting for him.

[klamath]

What lied through their teeth? Whoever said they lied through their teeth? If they do not announce they are RP supporters and let everyone believe they are voting for the person that won the caucus they are lying.

[JK/SEA]

//

[camp_steveo]

If RP comes in dead last in popular votes and accepts the nomination on delegate deception the movement is dead. I will NOT vote for RP under those circumstances.

What's deceptive about following the rules?

[camp_steveo]

It simply is not possible to win the nomination without winning states despite some of the foolishness you might read.

The larger state primaries are all after April 1st and are winner take all with bound delegates.

At some point Gingrich and Santorum will drop out of the race and endorse Romney giving him all their delegates. There won't be a brokered convention because of this.

What makes you think those two don't think they can do the same thing being discussed here by us?

[JK/SEA]

If they do not announce they are RP supporters and let everyone believe they are voting for the person that won the caucus they are lying.

wow..i don't know what world you think you live in, but to me alls fair in love and war and politics. In case you forgot, this country is going in the toilet, and in desperate times, desparate tactics MUST be employed. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Time is almost up...for all of us. And i don't consider not identifying yourself as one supporter of someone else or someone else to be dis-honest. Use the un-decided tactic. Worked for me, and if i have to dress like a lizard to become a delegate i will.

[69360]

What makes you think those two don't think they can do the same thing being discussed here by us?

They are establishment politicians and they work with the party higher ups.

[Maltheus]

Right now I am a county delegate and a state alternate. As an state alternate or a county delegate, is there any way I can stop our districts state delegate (Santorum Supporter) from going to the national level by vote at the county or state level?

Your state delegate isn't likely to go to national (just voting for those who are) and there's nothing you can do to stop him from going to state. They may not show for state (surprisingly common), in which case you can take over for him and vote for the Ron Paul slate of delegates to go to national. You may also get promoted out of county.

[klamath]

What's deceptive about following the rules?
What is so deceptive? How about announcing you positions and defending them and getting elected on those positions?????

[giovannile07]

If they do not announce they are RP supporters and let everyone believe they are voting for the person that won the caucus they are lying.
They DO announce they are Ron Paul supporters and if they don't they state their beliefs, which should be very similar to Ron Paul's stances. It is not like they go around saying they are another candidates supporter. There just might be more Ron Paul supporters waiting at the precincts to vote for the delegates meaning that more Ron Paul supporters are there to vote for their fellow Ron Paul delegates. They aren't saying "Hey guys, I'm a Romney supporter vote for me!" to the people voting for delegates. Plus, in the first round the bound delegates have to vote for whoever got the popular vote. It may not be in every case, but the majority of people should be doing this.

[camp_steveo]

What is so deceptive? How about announcing you positions and defending them and getting elected on those positions?????

Isn't it voluntary? If the other candidates' supporters don't volunteer isn't that that's their own fault?

[JK/SEA]

What is so deceptive? How about announcing you positions and defending them and getting elected on those positions?????

not a big fan of the french underground in WW2 are you?.....for example. Yes, a bit extreme, but the sentiment applies in politics as well.

You want to bow out?...obama has a web site. Check it out.

[klamath]

wow..i don't know what world you think you live in, but to me alls fair in love and war and politics. In case you forgot, this country is going in the toilet, and in desperate times, desparate tactics MUST be employed. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Time is almost up...for all of us. And i don't consider not identifying yourself as one supporter of someone else or someone else to be dis-honest. Use the un-decided tactic. Worked for me, and if i have to dress like a lizard to become a delegate i will.
And this tactic will take the country RIGHT down the toilette just as fast. Becoming what we fight against will not work for me. If all is fair in love and war then it is fair to bomb the hell out of arabs and TAKE their/now our oil and steal your nieghbors wife. It is all fair.

[klamath]

They DO announce they are Ron Paul supporters and if they don't they state their beliefs, which should be very similar to Ron Paul's stances. It is not like they go around saying they are another candidates supporter. There just might be more Ron Paul supporters waiting at the precincts to vote for the delegates meaning that more Ron Paul supporters are there to vote for their fellow Ron Paul delegates. They aren't saying "Hey guys, I'm a Romney supporter vote for me!" to the people voting for delegates. Plus, in the first round the bound delegates have to vote for whoever got the popular vote. It may not be in every case, but the majority of people should be doing this.
Really? A quote from a delegate in this very thread.

And i don't consider not identifying yourself as one supporter of someone else or someone else to be dis-honest. Use the un-decided tactic. Worked for me, and if i have to dress like a lizard to become a delegate i will.

[Austin]

"the plurality of delegates", which can be interpreted many ways.

Not really... It means he has to win more delegates than any other candidate in at least 5 states. That doesn't mean 51%, just more than any other candidate.

[giovannile07]

Really? A quote from a delegate in this very thread.
I said it may not be every case...

[klamath]

They DO announce they are Ron Paul supporters and if they don't they state their beliefs, which should be very similar to Ron Paul's stances. It is not like they go around saying they are another candidates supporter. There just might be more Ron Paul supporters waiting at the precincts to vote for the delegates meaning that more Ron Paul supporters are there to vote for their fellow Ron Paul delegates. They aren't saying "Hey guys, I'm a Romney supporter vote for me!" to the people voting for delegates. Plus, in the first round the bound delegates have to vote for whoever got the popular vote. It may not be in every case, but the majority of people should be doing this.
I am not arguing against what you state is the case here. I am arguing against those that ARE advocating to subvert bonding to the popular vote even on the first ballot.

[mmadness]

I am not arguing against what you state is the case here. I am arguing against those that ARE advocating to subvert bonding to the popular vote even on the first ballot.

We're not talking about the same thing. At the state convention (or in some cases the CD conventions), delegates are elected to go to the RNC.

Some of them will be pledged (based on state rules) to the proportion of the straw vote. But the individual delegates themselves are individuals, who may/may not support that particular candidate that they are pledged for. This is not subversion, but how it has always been. You will never have a particular state's delegation be 100% on board with how the straw poll went - because they are all individuals. For example, Florida was winner-take-all 50 delegates. Can you guarantee that all 50 delegates coming from FL will all be Romney supporters? No. They won't be, and further more, these delegates have not yet been selected as there is a process to go through (usually through county, CD, then state conventions).

Now a motion could be made at the state convention to change the rules so that the delegates are unbound going to the RNC.

If that motion fails then at the RNC, a pledged delegate for a particular candidate is only pledged for the first x number of voting rounds, depending on state rules. In most cases, it is just 1 round. In the event of a brokered convention and more than 1 voting round is required (as no one candidate has a majority), successive numbers of pledged delegates become unpledged, and are freed up to vote for who they want.

This is not subversion, this is the way the game and rules are set up, to benefit the grassroots and organization from the ground up, as opposed to the party insiders and establishment.

[mmadness]

The founding fathers did not set up the party nomination process.

Regardless, the nomination process has been like that for a long time. We are playing by the rules.

[mmadness]

Do you realize how hypocritical that that I bolded is? Here you have the will of the people by 82% against RP and you want the delegate to sneak in and give the election to him?
If RP was only .5 to 5% percent behind in popular vote then it is close enough to go either way. Would you accept and be happy if rp won the nomination and went on the win the popular vote by 65 to 35%, all the states and then you find out the slate of electors were really Obama supporters and gave him the win? Electors are not bound you know. This would be legal.

Last time I checked, this election isn't over. You giving up?

Also, you say 82% of the people are against Ron Paul? Didn't we just have a national Reuters poll that disproved that? Support is probably higher too. If it comes down to Paul vs. Obama it will not be 82% against Ron Paul.

Electors are not bound but it is very rare to have a faithless elector. Delegates are bound to specific candidates but only for x voting rounds. And they can make a motion at the state convention to send the delegation unbound to the RNC.

[mmadness]

as opposed to the results being the same and the campaign being broke now?

As I see it, the campaign spending has not influenced this election AT ALL. Why? Because the money was apparently spent trying to run a strategy that didn't require spending money, or at least the kind of money that his been burnt up.

It wasn't so much that the money wasn't spent here, it was the fact that the campaign wasn't even willing to open an office or hold rallies or *GASP* fundraising in one of the TOP THREE donating states to the campaign in the country. 117k Ron Paul supporters. If only 10% donated $10 dollars for the purpose of opening 10 campaign offices, you have an office in all 10 of the major metro areas with a 11.7k budget minus cost of renting the office and staff for a month. That would have made a HUGE difference.

In fact, I THOUGHT that is what campaigns do. Nope, no delegates, NO CAMPAIGN. uuggghh..

I think you need to learn that Florida was bar none the worst bang-for-the-buck state that Dr. Paul could have spent his money in. This thread shows why:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?357054-For-those-of-you-who-don-t-know-why-Dr.-Paul-is-not-spending-time-money-in-FL-here-s-why

So I'm glad he didn't spend money in a winner-take-all state that even if he eked out a 2nd or a 3rd (and went broke), he would have finished with no delegates.

[klamath]

Last time I checked, this election isn't over. You giving up?

Also, you say 82% of the people are against Ron Paul? Didn't we just have a national Reuters poll that disproved that? Support is probably higher too. If it comes down to Paul vs. Obama it will not be 82% against Ron Paul.

Electors are not bound but it is very rare to have a faithless elector. Delegates are bound to specific candidates but only for x voting rounds. And they can make a motion at the state convention to send the delegation unbound to the RNC.
I am not talking about polls I am talking about the vote percentage RP has recieved so far in this election. 18% was off the top of my head. Actually the average for the last 8 caucuses and primaries is 16.7%. If things don't change he will end up with 83 percent that didn't vote for him. Polls prove nothing only results from SOS offices prove anything.
It is also very rare for pledged delegates to defect as well.
As long as delegates honor who they are bound to for the first ballot or how ever long their state rules require I would be glad they were RP supporters when they were unbound. If it comes down to a brokered convention anything is possible.

I would not support delegations of secret RP supporters that are bound to the other candidates voting to unbind themselves unless the candidate that they were bound to dropped out.

I do not support delegates being dishonest about who they really support and intentionally vague to cover up what they really stand for. If we are going to do that why not have the main man himself tell the voters that he will support israel to the end and make sure with all means necessary that Iran doesn't get Nukes. That way we only have one man lie and play politician, getting the popular votes and the delegates. He doesnt have to ask 1144 people to be dishonest and play politics. After all that is the general rules of politics and RP would be only playing by the rules.

[mmadness]

I am not talking about polls I am talking about the vote percentage RP has recieved so far in this election. 18% was off the top of my head. Actually the average for the last 8 caucuses and primaries is 16.7%. If things don't change he will end up with 83 percent that didn't vote for him. Polls prove nothing only results from SOS offices prove anything.

Regardless, the popular vote does not count for how the GOP selects the nominee. That's just the way things are. I mean, you could go all over the map on this. Why do states automatically get 2 senators, when there is a disproportionate population spread? That's the way the system is set up. So whether or not RP (or ANY candidate) gets 82%, 5%, 55%, etc. does not matter. It's about the rules of how to win the nomination.

Plus if you think about it, no candidate is ending up with more than 30-50% of the vote usually in these contests. So why should it even matter how much a candidate gets, 18%, 20%, etc. ultimately if he wins?


It is also very rare for pledged delegates to defect as well.
As long as delegates honor who they are bound to for the first ballot or how ever long their state rules require I would be glad they were RP supporters when they were unbound. If it comes down to a brokered convention anything is possible.

I don't think we're talking about actually breaking that pledge. If someone has enough pledged delegates to win on the first ballot then by definition this is not a brokered convention but a coronation (ie. McCain in '08). We are talking about the next voting rounds when these pledged delegates get freed up.

I have never heard of a pledged delegate actually going against his/her pledge and voting for someone else.


I would not support delegations of secret RP supporters that are bound to the other candidates voting to unbind themselves unless the candidate that they were bound to dropped out.

I don't think you understand, the delegates will automatically be unbound by state rules after the first voting round (or beyond). So they don't have to vote to unbind themselves. One of the options is that the delegates (rightly) have the option to put forth a motion at the state convention to send an unbound delegation to the RNC. There are states already sending unbound delegations, so the system is already set up so the delegates have a say in the process.

Also, non-RP delegates will end up being bound to other candidates that they don't necessarily support anyway. So are you saying that you're not going to support Romney if he wins a brokered convention because some of his delegates got freed up to vote for him (when previously they were pledged for RP, Newt or Santorum)?


I do not support delegates being dishonest about who they really support and intentionally vague to cover up what they really stand for. If we are going to do that why not have the main man himself tell the voters that he will support israel to the end and make sure with all means necessary that Iran doesn't get Nukes. That way we only have one man lie and play politician, getting the popular votes and the delegates. He doesnt have to ask 1144 people to be dishonest and play politics. After all that is the general rules of politics and RP would be only playing by the rules.

Nobody said that delegates had to be dishonest.

If there is no requirement for delegates to personally disclose who they support, then they shouldn't have to. This seems like a right to privacy issue anyway. They can either say they are for a particular candidate, undecided, or for whichever candidate they think would beat Obama.

Also realize that in many states, delegates will get elected to the national delegation, not based on who they are pledged to, but based on the simple fact that the state needs to send x national delegates and y national alternates, and they are voting just to fill out those slots. So RP delegates could get nominated to that delegation on that basis alone.

[Paul Or Nothing II]

I don't know why there are so many negative-nancies prancing around with their defeatist attitudes spreading negativity allover, why don't they just go home & wait for the totalitarian circus to start?

I don't give a sh!t about "will of the people"! Ya! DON'T GIVE A SH!T !

People at large are dumb anyway, this is the reason we're where we are - on the brink of a totalitarian-state!

If people were smart & capable of voting in the right people, they would.......but they are NOT! And that is a verifiable fact! There are so many democratic countries around & people always manage to vote in some of the corrupt people while honest people like Ron are disrespected, ridiculed & kicked to the curb & that's how it is!

So I only care for my liberties & the liberties of those care about it........everyone else can go to hell!

I don't know why people forget that originally only property-owners were allowed to vote & this was because of the understanding of the Founders that if every idiot out there voted then we'd have a chaotic socialised mobocracy where everyone is trying to freeload at the expense of everyone else.

Am I an elitist, hell I am, so were the Founders & that's exactly why they were able to bring into existence one of the freest countries in history! So I'd rather be an elitist that believes in liberty for all than a populist-marxist that brings suppression & misery for all!

It's NOT a fight of "people v elite", it's a fight between different groups of "ideological elites" where the masses are mostly irrelevant so if we want our freedoms then we must use every method, by hook or by crook, to overthrow the current elite & install those of us who believe in liberty for all.

We should definitely continue to spread the word of liberty amongst the masses as it will definitely alert those amongst us who are smart enough & join us in our efforts but the idea that we can ever COMPLETELY re-educate the masses without first clinching the system then that's naivete at its worst! Until we overthrow the current ideological elite, we'll not be able to re-educate the masses, likely NOT before totalitarianism, misery & communist-sentiment grips the country!

If we SOMEHOW win the GOP-nomination, then it will be Republicans Vs Obama & GOP-voters will stand behind Paul just as Romney & others have already said that they'd choose Paul over Obama! And with Ron's anti-war, anti-drug-war stance, he'll eat up a good enough chunk of Indies & Dems to beat Obama.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?359384-When-are-we-going-to-play-3rd-party-card

[idiom]

Obama lost the popular vote to Clinton.

Also, if Gingrich and santorum drop out their bound delegates still have to vote for them in the first rounds. They can't give their delegates away.

[freneticentropy]

Klamath, you're crazy.

The rules for the NOMINATION were set long ago by the GOP and all the other campaigns are trying to do the same thing. We're just (hoping) we're more successful at it. Paul has been open in interviews that he's trying to get more delegates than his proportion. He hasn't been lying to anyone. The delegates are not breaking any kind of oath. This is all kinds of delusional. Some delegates are bound by the rules to vote for a certain candidate based on the straw poll totals, and that's what they'll do. After that, if another candidate is eliminated, their delegates become unbound and free to vote for anyone.

And keep in mind, this is all just to win the NOMINATION of a private party. A private group is allowed to have their own nominating rules. If I start the freneticentropy party, I can write rules that say we play a game of Twister for the nomination. The nomination is not an actual election.

What you say doesn't even make sense, actually. The delegates can't stick with their candidate forever. If they have a vote, and no candidate gets 51%, they have to revote. If they just revote for their candidate, this process will go on forever. They have to pick another candidate once they become unbound. We are just sensibly trying to get people favorable to Paul in those positions. Most of the time, we can do it, because actual Romney/Santorum supporters don't actually run for delegate positions. But they could if they wanted to. There's nothing shady about it.

Tell me, what do you think should happen at the convention if no candidate has a majority? The only other option is to just say, the candidate with the most delegates wins, even if they only have 26%. That's a lousy system. Instead they eliminate the bottom candidate and revote until somewhat gets a majority. That just makes a lot more sense and is fairer. It's sort of a variation on instant runoff voting without having to go back and do the whole primary season again.

[soulcyon]

Paul Or Nothing II +reppppppppp

Do we have any confirmation that this delegate strategy is underway? I know there are a few RP delegates (in colorado, iowa and such), but do we have a hard number of the delegate distribution so far?

[Romer]

Colorado (caucus) Unbound (36)
Minnesota (caucus) Unbound (40)


So, just a question following the discusion, is it possible that Ron has won all 76 delegates in the states above? (in theory)

[Travlyr]

Paul Or Nothing II +reppppppppp

Do we have any confirmation that this delegate strategy is underway? I know there are a few RP delegates (in colorado, iowa and such), but do we have a hard number of the delegate distribution so far?
Yes, in my precinct all three delegates to the county assembly are Ron Paul people because we showed up, stuck around, and voted for them.

[Travlyr]

So, just a question following the discusion, is it possible that Ron has won all 76 delegates in the states above? (in theory)
My understanding... in March the precinct delegates meet to select county delegates. In April the county delegates meet to elect State delegates. The State delegates will meet in August, in Tampa, to nominate the presidential candidate.

[tbone717]

Obama lost the popular vote to Clinton.

Also, if Gingrich and santorum drop out their bound delegates still have to vote for them in the first rounds. They can't give their delegates away.

They can however, ask their unbound delegates to vote for another candidate. Just as we will have our people on the floor as unbound delegates, so will the other campaigns. Let's say for example that Romney is 100 vote shy of being able to win on the first ballot. He can strike a deal with Santorum for a cabinet slot, Santorum's people can then round up 100 of their unbound delegates as ask them to support Romney on the first ballot to avoid a brokered convention. When they get enough commitments so they are assured that Romney will win on the first ballot, then they will vote.

Again, for any of this to occur the primary season needs to drag out till the very end, with Romney, Santorum, Newt and/or Paul trading wins back and forth. At this point roughly 90% of the total delegates have yet to be awarded. Odds are that one of the four candidates will go into the convention with more than enough delegates to win on the first ballot.

The key for the Paul campaign, is not to pin their hopes on a brokered convention. But instead would be to catapult himself to a front runner position and start winning contests.

[tbone717]

Obama lost the popular vote to Clinton.

Also, if Gingrich and santorum drop out their bound delegates still have to vote for them in the first rounds. They can't give their delegates away.

They can however, ask their unbound delegates to vote for another candidate. Just as we will have our people on the floor as unbound delegates, so will the other campaigns. Let's say for example that Romney is 100 vote shy of being able to win on the first ballot. He can strike a deal with Santorum for a cabinet slot, Santorum's people can then round up 100 of their unbound delegates as ask them to support Romney on the first ballot to avoid a brokered convention. When they get enough commitments so they are assured that Romney will win on the first ballot, then they will vote.

Again, for any of this to occur the primary season needs to drag out till the very end, with Romney, Santorum, Newt and/or Paul trading wins back and forth. At this point roughly 90% of the total delegates have yet to be awarded. Odds are that one of the four candidates will go into the convention with more than enough delegates to win on the first ballot.

The key for the Paul campaign, is not to pin their hopes on a brokered convention. But instead would be to catapult himself to a front runner position and start winning contests.

[Romer]

My understanding... in March the precinct delegates meet to select county delegates. In April the county delegates meet to elect State delegates. The State delegates will meet in August, in Tampa, to nominate the presidential candidate.

Thank you for the explanation. I am not from the US, so I didn't quite understand all this delegate procedure. Now it's much more clear how it works.
So if I got it right, in ref to my original question, these 76 are actually final state's delegates which will be elected in April.

[tbone717]

Thank you for the explanation. I am not from the US, so I didn't quite understand all this delegate procedure. Now it's much more clear how it works.
So if I got it right, in ref to my original question, these 76 are actually final state's delegates which will be elected in April.

www.thegreenpapers.com has each states delegate selection rules.

[Travlyr]

Thank you for the explanation. I am not from the US, so I didn't quite understand all this delegate procedure. Now it's much more clear how it works.
So if I got it right, in ref to my original question, these 76 are actually final state's delegates which will be elected in April.
Right. That's the way I understand it works in my State. So the media is totally lying to the people in order to quell momentum.

[opinionatedfool]

Ron Paul and supporters are pretty open about the fact that we are after delegate count. I'm not sure how that's deception.

[SCOTUSman]

You don't need to win 5 states to become the nominee. That is why there is talk of Rubio and Christie in a brokered convention. You don't need a single popular vote to win. A brokered convention....you can win any which way you can. Heck on the first ballot you can win any which way...the only thing that matters is getting 1144 delegates. You get that many to vote for you on any given ballot whether the first (where many delegates are bound) or subsequent ballots (where nearly everyone is unbound, except Florida through first four ballots)...you get 1144 delegates voting for a given person, that person wins.

[eqcitizen]

Does anyone know the difference in the delegate strategy between caucus states and primary states?

[tbone717]

You don't need to win 5 states to become the nominee. That is why there is talk of Rubio and Christie in a brokered convention. You don't need a single popular vote to win. A brokered convention....you can win any which way you can. Heck on the first ballot you can win any which way...the only thing that matters is getting 1144 delegates. You get that many to vote for you on any given ballot whether the first (where many delegates are bound) or subsequent ballots (where nearly everyone is unbound, except Florida through first four ballots)...you get 1144 delegates voting for a given person, that person wins.

The rules state: "Each candidate for nomination for President of the United States and Vice President of the United States shall demonstrate the support of a plurality of the delegates from each of five (5) or more states, severally, prior to the presentation of the name of that candidate for nomination."

So in order for a motion to be made to place a candidate's name for nomination, they need to have that plurality from five states. Of the seven states that have already held their contests, four of them have yet to award their delegates since they have a state convention process. It is possible that Paul may have a plurality in all of those states or in none of those states. We do know that at present Romney has a plurality in two states (NH & FL), Gingrich has one state (SC).

[tbone717]

Does anyone know the difference in the delegate strategy between caucus states and primary states?

It all depends on how the delegates are awarded. Some primaries are "winner take all", some are proportional based on the vote totals, some award delegates statewide and by congressional distrtict. So it is a mixed bag

[Travlyr]

According to these folks http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P12/ .. here is the scorecard so far.

"Soft" Delegates
Need to Nominate 1,144
(available) 2,079
W Romney 99
N Gingrich 41
R Santorum 39
R Paul 28
Total 2,286

All the negative nitwits on RPF who are working to crush our momentum are simply TV watchers parroting the lying ass media shills. Don't believe their bullshit.

Delegates Matter (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?346522-PDF-Delegate-information-for-ALL-50-states!-Wondering-about-your-state-look-no-further!). Become a Delegate for Ron Paul (http://www.ronpaul2012.com/Delegate/)

Beauty contest are for the TV crowd who don't show up to vote in primaries or caucuses. Rick Santorum won the beauty contest the last couple of days, but he, and Newt, screwed up and did not get on the ballot in many States. So Santorum and Gingrich will have a harder time winning the nomination.

Ron Paul can win.

[gte811i]

The rules state: "Each candidate for nomination for President of the United States and Vice President of the United States shall demonstrate the support of a plurality of the delegates from each of five (5) or more states, severally, prior to the presentation of the name of that candidate for nomination."

So in order for a motion to be made to place a candidate's name for nomination, they need to have that plurality from five states. Of the seven states that have already held their contests, four of them have yet to award their delegates since they have a state convention process. It is possible that Paul may have a plurality in all of those states or in none of those states. We do know that at present Romney has a plurality in two states (NH & FL), Gingrich has one state (SC).

The way I read it is you do not have to win any of the popular vote. IMO this just means that in order to win the nomination you have to win at least 5 states in the delegate count. (We may be saying the same thing . . . )

You could win no states in the popular vote. Say Paul has 15% of the popular vote, never wins a state, yet 60% of the delegates are Paul people. If no candidate outright wins on the 1st ballot, then on the 2nd ballot Paul gets 1144 delegates. From those 1144 delegates, he has to have a plurality from at least 5 states, i.e. win 5 states in the delegate count.

[gte811i]

I think what this is doing is preventing someone from say winning all the delegates from Tx, California,NY, getting 419 delegates and then picking up 43% of the rest of the delegates to get to 1144 but never winning another state (if only 2 people are running).

[tbone717]

The way I read it is you do not have to win any of the popular vote. IMO this just means that in order to win the nomination you have to win at least 5 states in the delegate count. (We may be saying the same thing . . . )

You could win no states in the popular vote. Say Paul has 15% of the popular vote, never wins a state, yet 60% of the delegates are Paul people. If no candidate outright wins on the 1st ballot, then on the 2nd ballot Paul gets 1144 delegates. From those 1144 delegates, he has to have a plurality from at least 5 states, i.e. win 5 states in the delegate count.

I believe this rule pertains to nominating someone from the floor prior to the first ballot. But yes, this does mean that someone does not have to win the popular vote in a state, simply they need to have a plurality of delegates. So let's assume when IA has their state convention Paul has 10 delegates from the state and all the other delegates have less than 10, then in that case Paul would have a plurality in one state.

[Paul Or Nothing II]

We do know that at present Romney has a plurality in two states (NH & FL), Gingrich has one state (SC).

So much for "live free or die" motto! :rolleyes: