View Full Version : Will Grigg demolishes the justifications of US sniper Chris Kyle.
Anti Federalist
02-08-2012, 07:49 AM
Skip to the last paragraph to understand why the "all cops aren't bad, it's just a few bad apples" argument is a load of horseshit.
The Pseudo-Courage of Chris Kyle
http://www.freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2012/02/pseudo-courage-of-chris-kyle.html
That kind of courage, which is conspicuous in danger and enterprise, if devoid of justice, is absolutely undeserving of the name of valor. It should rather be considered as a brutal fierceness outraging every principle of humanity. –
Cicero, The Offices, Book I Chapter XIX
As a sniper with the Navy SEALs in Iraq, Chris Kyle was shot twice and wounded on several other occasions. He is credited with 160 confirmed kills. He received several commendations. Of his fierceness there is no reasonable doubt. Whether his exploits display courage is an entirely separate question.
American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History, the ghost-written memoir for which Kyle claims primary authorship, offers convincing testimony that Kyle not only failed to display genuine courage in Iraq, but was incapable of recognizing it when it was exhibited by desperate patriots seeking to evict the armed foreigners who had invaded and occupied their country.
The insurgents who fought the American invasion (and the few “allied” troops representing governments that had been bribed or brow-beaten into collaborating in that crime) were sub-human “savages” and “cowards,” according to Kyle.
“Savage, despicable evil,” writes Kyle. “That’s what we were fighting in Iraq…. People ask me all the time, `How many people have you killed?’... The number is not important to me. I only wish I had killed more. Not for bragging rights, but because I believe the world is a better place without savages out there taking American lives.”
None of the American military personnel whose lives were wasted in Iraq had to die there, because none of them had any legitimate reason to be there. From Kyle’s perspective, however, only incorrigibly “evil” people would object once their country had been designated the target of one of Washington’s frequent outbursts of murderous humanitarianism.
The insensate savagery of the Iraqi population was supposedly illustrated by the first kill Kyle recorded as a sniper, while covering a Marine advance near Nasiriyah in March, 2003.
“I looked through the scope,” Kyle recalls. “The only people who were moving were [a] woman and maybe a child or two nearby. I watched the troops pull up. Ten young, proud Marines in uniform got out of their vehicles and gathered for a foot patrol. As the Americans organized, the woman took something from beneath her clothes, and yanked at it. She’d set a grenade.”
Kyle shot the woman twice.
“It was my duty to shoot, and I don’t regret it,” Kyle attests. “The woman was already dead. I was just making sure she didn’t take any Marines with her. It was clear that not only did she want to kill them, but she didn’t care about anybody else nearby who would have been blown up by the grenade or killed in the firefight. Children on the street, people in the houses, maybe her child….”
Of course, if the Marines hadn’t invaded that woman’s neighborhood, she wouldn’t have been driven to take such desperate action – but Kyle either cannot or will not understand the motives of an Iraqi patriot.
“She was … blinded by evil,” Kyle writes of the woman he murdered from a safe distance. “She just wanted Americans dead, no matter what. My shots saved several Americans, whose lives were clearly worth more than that woman’s twisted soul.”
Were Kyle just a touch more literate, he might recognize the term untermenschen, a German expression that encapsulates his view of the Iraqis who took up arms to repel foreign invaders. From his perspective, they were incurably inferior to their “liberators” and possessed of an inexplicable hatred toward their natural betters.
For some reason many Iraqis resented the armed emissaries of the distant government that had installed Saddam in power, built up his arsenal and apparatus of domestic repression, and then conferred upon the inhabitants of that nation the unmatched blessing of several decades of wars, embargoes, airstrikes, disease, and the early, avoidable deaths of hundreds of thousands of children.
“The people we were fighting in Iraq, after Saddam’s army fled or was defeated, were fanatics,” Kyle insists. “They hated us because we weren’t Muslim. They wanted to kill us, even though we’d just booted out their dictator, because we practiced a different religion than they did.”
Actually, most of them probably wanted to kill Kyle and his comrades because they had invaded and occupied their country. They were prepared to use lethal force to protect their homes against armed intruders who had no right to be there. Ironically, Kyle’s book offers evidence that he understands that principle; he simply doesn’t believe that it applies to Iraqis.
In one incident described by Kyle, he and several other U.S. personnel raid an Iraqi home, in the basement of which they discover a mass grave containing the bodies of several soldiers and Marines. For several panic-stricken moments, Kyle is understandably terrified by the thought that he might find the lifeless body of his younger brother, a Marine who had also been deployed to Iraq.
With obvious and vehement disgust, Kyle cites the “murdered young men whose bodies we had pulled out” of that basement grave as evidence of the bestial nature of the enemy. He exhibits no interest at all in the fact that tens of millions of Iraqis have seen friends and family meet violent, avoidable deaths as a result of the wars and sanctions imposed on their country by Washington. Untermenschen, apparently, aren’t entitled to experience grief and rage – much less the right to defend their homes and families against aggressive violence.
After returning from his first combat tour in Iraq, Kyle recalls, he was rudely roused from slumber one morning when the burglar alarm went off. Although this was a malfunction rather than a real emergency, Kyle’s reaction was revealing.
“I grabbed my pistol and went to confront the criminal,” he recalls. “No son of a bitch was breaking into my house and living to tell about it.”
Why was it “evil” for Iraqis to feel exactly the same way about the foreign sons of bitches who broke into their country and wrecked the place?
Later in the book, describing a stalking exercise during his training to become a sniper, Kyle recounts how he “heard the distinct rattle of a snake nearby.”
“A rattler had taken a particular liking to the piece of real estate I had to cross,” Kyle recalls. “Willing it away didn’t work…. I crept slowly to the side, altering my course. Some enemies aren’t worth fighting.”
Exactly: The only enemies worth “fighting,” apparently, are those who aren’t capable of hurting you when you trespass on their turf.
The Gadsden Flag – featuring a coiled rattlesnake and the directive “Don’t Tread On Me” – was, and remains, the best symbolic expression of authentic American patriotism. Genuine American patriots can understand why patriots of other countries would feel similar attachments, and be similarly inclined to repel foreign invaders. This is why they will never support any war that puts other Americans in the position of killing foreign patriots who are defending their own homes.
A rattlesnake defending its territory earns Kyle’s respect; an Iraqi patriot fighting on his home soil with his back to his home and the face to his enemy, however, is “blinded by evil” and not truly human.
“They may have been cowards, but they could certainly kill people,” observes Kyle of the guerrillas. “The insurgents didn’t worry about ROEs [Rules of Engagement] or court-martials [sic]. If they had the advantage, they would kill any Westerner they could find, whether they were soldiers or not.”
If that charge (made on page 87 of Kyle’s book) is accurate, it might reflect the fact that the Iraqi resistance (as well as the tactics of foreign guerrillas who joined the fight) was playing according to ground rules established by the U.S. early in the war.
On page 79, Kyle describes the Rules of Engagement that his unit followed when they were deployed to Shatt al-Arab, a river on the Iraq-Iran border: “Our ROEs when the war kicked off were pretty simple: If you see anyone from about sixteen to sixty-five and they’re male, shoot ‘em. Kill every male you see. That wasn’t the official language, but that was the idea.” (Emphasis in the original.)
Those orders were of a piece with the studied indifference to civilian casualties that characterized the “Shock and Awe” bombing campaign that began the war. In preparing that onslaught General Tommy Franks and his military planners were guided by a computer program that referred to civilian casualties as “bugsplat.” Franks had no compunction about ordering bombing missions that would result in what the computer projections described as “heavy bugsplat.” After all, aren’t the lives of American military personnel “clearly worth more” – to use Kyle’s phrase -- than those of the Iraqi civilians, who were mere insects to be annihilated?
In one of her occasional contributions to Kyle’s book, his wife Taya rebukes people who criticize the bloodshed wrought in Iraq by her husband and his colleagues: “As far as I can see it, anyone who has a problem with what guys do over there is incapable of empathy.” The trait she describes isn’t empathy; it’s a variation on the kind of pre-emptive self-pity described by Hannah Arendt in her study Eichmann in Jerusalem.
Referring to those who killed on behalf of the Third Reich, Arendt observed:
“What stuck in the minds of these men who had become murderers was simply the notion of being involved in something historic, grandiose, unique (`a great task that occurs once in two thousand years’), which must therefore be difficult to bear. This was important, because the murderers were not sadists or killers by nature; on the contrary, a systematic effort was made to weed out all those who derived physical pleasure from what they did....”
This was true even of those who belonged to the SS: Even those in the Reich’s killer elite were not able to suppress their conscience entirely. Thus the “trick used by Himmler — who apparently was rather strongly afflicted by these instinctive reactions himself — was very simple and probably very effective; it consisted in turning these instincts around, as it were, in directing them toward the self. So that instead of saying: `What horrible things I did to people!,’ the murderers would be able to say: `What horrible things I had to watch in the pursuance of my duties, how heavily the task weighed upon my shoulders!’"
Kyle’s memoir is remarkable chiefly for the complete absence of the kind of moral anguish Arendt describes among the SS. Kyle eagerly participated in a patently illegal and entirely unnecessary war of aggression against a country that never attacked, harmed, or threatened the United States. He killed scores of people, terrorized thousands more. As Kyle tells the story, he reveled in the experience, and regrets only that he wasn’t able to slaughter more of the “savages” who surrounded him.
During Kyle’s last deployment to Iraq, his unit – Charlie Company of SEAL Team 3 – assigned themselves the nickname “The Punishers,” appropriating as their insignia the Death’s Head logo used by the psychotic comic book character of the same name.
Interestingly, a group of police officers in Milwaukee had exactly the same idea. They also adopted the “Punisher” logo, which they displayed on their police vehicles and wore on knitted caps as they prowled the street in search of asses to kick.
The most memorable exhibition of what they regarded as valor came in October 2004, when a thugscrum of “Punishers” beset a male dancer named Frank Jude, who was nearly beaten to death because he was suspected of stealing a badge.
After throwing Jude to the ground, the Punishers severely beat, kicked, and choked him – then put a knife to his throat and jammed a pen into one of his ears. The victim survived the assault, but was left with permanent brain damage. The officers later claimed that this amount of violence was necessary to “subdue” Jude – who was never charged in connection with the incident. The jury in the criminal trial accepted that claim and acquitted the officers – who were later found guilty of criminal civil rights violations.
During his service in Iraq, Kyle occasionally functioned as a law enforcement officer of sorts. He was involved in dozens of raids against the homes of suspected “insurgents,” many of whom were arrested on the basis of uncorroborated accusations by anonymous informants.
He allows that many of the people dragged off in shackles were entirely innocent, but maintains that he wasn't ever troubled by that fact; he was just doing his "duty."
Shortly before the war began, Kyle was part of a SEAL unit tasked to enforce UNsanctions against Iraq by intercepting tankers leaving the country with unlicensed oil deliveries. On one occasion, he boarded a tanker commanded by a commercial sea captain who “had some fight in him, and even though he was unarmed, he wasn’t ready to surrender.”
“He made a run at me,” Kyle continues. “Pretty stupid. First of all, I’m not only bigger than him, but I was wearing full body armor. Not to mention the fact that I had a submachine gun in my hand. I took the muzzle of my gun and struck the idiot in the chest. He went right down.”
If Kyle had been a warrior, rather than a bully, he would have admired the authentic courage displayed by the smaller, unarmed man who fought to protect the ship and cargo entrusted to him.
How would he act if the roles were reversed – if he were the over-matched man trying to defend private property from a group of state-licensed pirates claiming “authority” from a UN mandate? We’ll never know the answer to that question, because Kyle’s “courage” is of the sort that only manifests itself in the service of power, and in the company of those enjoying a prohibitive advantage over their victims.
Kyle’s “service” continues, even though he’s retired from the military. He is president of Craft International, a Homeland Security contractor involved in training domestic law enforcement agencies. It’s quite likely that Kyle’s outfit will soak up a considerable portion of the roughly $1.5 billion dollars the Obama administration seeks to hire military veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan to work as police, emergency personnel, and park rangers.
specsaregood
02-08-2012, 08:14 AM
AF, can you imagine having 160 souls chasing you around and hanging over your head the day you meet your maker?
I'm pretty sure I'd make up almost any justification to try to make myself feel better about it.
fuck it im buying a gun.
and this inhuman SAVAGE is now training "cops" how to be like him??
so they will treat us like THAT?
NEVER THOUGHT ID SAY IT.
im buying a gun.
COME TO MY HOUSE WEARING YOUR SKULL GANG SHIT kyle!
i WILL show you what an insect is.:mad:
Danke
02-08-2012, 08:42 AM
Forwarded to the punks Opie & Anthony.
Schiff_FTW
02-08-2012, 08:48 AM
I was watching 'Conan' the other night when he announced this guy as a guest, so I immediately turned it off. Can't even consume mindless entertainment anymore without having to see murderers glorified.
A Son of Liberty
02-08-2012, 09:04 AM
Grigg is one of my favorites. The eloquent tension belies the subsurface anger, which is appropriate, and shared.
jmdrake
02-08-2012, 09:12 AM
Forwarded to the punks Opie & Anthony.
LOL. And imagine some idiots here at RPF were cheering this guy on because he allegedly decked Jesse Ventura. (And that was probably a BS story.)
Napolitanic Wars
02-08-2012, 09:15 AM
Chris Kyle is a douche's douche.
Kylie
02-08-2012, 12:39 PM
Do you think they must think this way in order to not go insane?
I mean, my brother-in-law and sister started out thinking this way when he entered the military. She would tell me, "Fuck those raghead motherfuckers. My husband's life is worth more than all of theirs. Kill em all, let Allah sort them out." After years of talking to her and explaining that those ragheads have mothers, fathers, children, husbands and the like and showing her what was actually happening to them over there(what her husband was tasked to do to them, if necessary), and after they decided to have their children, she did start to see the other side of the coin.
I would tell her, "Look at Iraq. Now play a little mind game with yourself. Let's say that Iraq invaded us because we have the oil they want. Let's say they think of us as less-than-human, cannon fodder, YOUR BABIES ARE NOW NOT HUMAN. They kill your neighbors, your cats, your children and then they torture you and your husband. Are you going to see them as the great liberators? Are you going to be happy they're in your country? Or are you going to fight the sons of bitches with everything you have because you've already lost everything you hold dear?"
That line of thinking has changed her tune. Her husband is much harder though, since he is active and is being shipped off to these places. I don't think he has actually had to kill anyone(yet), but I have given him food for thought as he's over there. And IMO I've finished his mindfucking that the military started. Now he is torn on what is truly right and what is his duty. He has sworn to me that he would never participate in something like this in our own country, but I've told him that they will de-humanize US citizens just as quickly and efficiently as they've done those ragheads you hate so much(for no good reason).
It's an impossible position to put young men and women in and expect them NOT to become mentally unstable. I don't blame the grunts who are sent to do this dirty work, so much as I blame their superiors for not having the decency to NOT engage in an undeclared immoral war. Wars will need to be fought on occasion, and when we do fight them, it should be with overwhelming strength and quickly ended. What we have now is not war, it's an occupying force that is immoral and is dealing with the ramifications of an unjust war theory.
oyarde
02-08-2012, 12:46 PM
Disgusting AF , thanks for posting it . This guy training police .......
Pericles
02-08-2012, 01:12 PM
Do you think they must think this way in order to not go insane?
I mean, my brother-in-law and sister started out thinking this way when he entered the military. She would tell me, "Fuck those raghead motherfuckers. My husband's life is worth more than all of theirs. Kill em all, let Allah sort them out." After years of talking to her and explaining that those ragheads have mothers, fathers, children, husbands and the like and showing her what was actually happening to them over there(what her husband was tasked to do to them, if necessary), and after they decided to have their children, she did start to see the other side of the coin.
I would tell her, "Look at Iraq. Now play a little mind game with yourself. Let's say that Iraq invaded us because we have the oil they want. Let's say they think of us as less-than-human, cannon fodder, YOUR BABIES ARE NOW NOT HUMAN. They kill your neighbors, your cats, your children and then they torture you and your husband. Are you going to see them as the great liberators? Are you going to be happy they're in your country? Or are you going to fight the sons of bitches with everything you have because you've already lost everything you hold dear?"
That line of thinking has changed her tune. Her husband is much harder though, since he is active and is being shipped off to these places. I don't think he has actually had to kill anyone(yet), but I have given him food for thought as he's over there. And IMO I've finished his mindfucking that the military started. Now he is torn on what is truly right and what is his duty. He has sworn to me that he would never participate in something like this in our own country, but I've told him that they will de-humanize US citizens just as quickly and efficiently as they've done those ragheads you hate so much(for no good reason).
It's an impossible position to put young men and women in and expect them NOT to become mentally unstable. I don't blame the grunts who are sent to do this dirty work, so much as I blame their superiors for not having the decency to NOT engage in an undeclared immoral war. Wars will need to be fought on occasion, and when we do fight them, it should be with overwhelming strength and quickly ended. What we have now is not war, it's an occupying force that is immoral and is dealing with the ramifications of an unjust war theory.
That ^ plus one other aspect. You get sent to places in the world, and can't avoid comparing the culture of the area in which you operate to your native culture. If you have a bias toward a culture that values individuals and a concept that individuals have rights that society can not infringe upon, any culture other than a western one, doesn't come off well in the comparison. As a consequence of that, most GIs really don't care if other cultures don't like us, and act accordingly.
Revolution9
02-08-2012, 02:23 PM
Do you think they must think this way in order to not go insane?
I mean, my brother-in-law and sister started out thinking this way when he entered the military. She would tell me, "Fuck those raghead motherfuckers. My husband's life is worth more than all of theirs. Kill em all, let Allah sort them out." After years of talking to her and explaining that those ragheads have mothers, fathers, children, husbands and the like and showing her what was actually happening to them over there(what her husband was tasked to do to them, if necessary), and after they decided to have their children, she did start to see the other side of the coin.
I would tell her, "Look at Iraq. Now play a little mind game with yourself. Let's say that Iraq invaded us because we have the oil they want. Let's say they think of us as less-than-human, cannon fodder, YOUR BABIES ARE NOW NOT HUMAN. They kill your neighbors, your cats, your children and then they torture you and your husband. Are you going to see them as the great liberators? Are you going to be happy they're in your country? Or are you going to fight the sons of bitches with everything you have because you've already lost everything you hold dear?"
That line of thinking has changed her tune. Her husband is much harder though, since he is active and is being shipped off to these places. I don't think he has actually had to kill anyone(yet), but I have given him food for thought as he's over there. And IMO I've finished his mindfucking that the military started. Now he is torn on what is truly right and what is his duty. He has sworn to me that he would never participate in something like this in our own country, but I've told him that they will de-humanize US citizens just as quickly and efficiently as they've done those ragheads you hate so much(for no good reason).
It's an impossible position to put young men and women in and expect them NOT to become mentally unstable. I don't blame the grunts who are sent to do this dirty work, so much as I blame their superiors for not having the decency to NOT engage in an undeclared immoral war. Wars will need to be fought on occasion, and when we do fight them, it should be with overwhelming strength and quickly ended. What we have now is not war, it's an occupying force that is immoral and is dealing with the ramifications of an unjust war theory.
They have free will and are responsible for their actions and words flowing from their mouth. They get no free pass from their maker. Asking our forgiveness is moot. They must forgive themselves for that is who they killed when they pulled the trigger.
Rev9
mac_hine
02-08-2012, 02:35 PM
Will Grigg is a brilliant writer.
Here's a recent interview he did with Lew Rockwell.
252. Police State USA
Lew Rockwell talks to Will Grigg on the militarist de-civilization of America.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/lewrockwell-show/2012/01/31/252-police-state-usa/
RiseAgainst
02-08-2012, 02:39 PM
This guy makes me want to go John Kerry and throw away my medals...
awake
02-08-2012, 02:43 PM
There are many Chris Kyle's running all around fortress America. They are awaiting orders to defend America from Americans. "The mission is everything", they "won't hesitate".
heavenlyboy34
02-08-2012, 02:50 PM
Wow. I never imagined someone in the MIC would come out and admit that they like killing civilians. Interesting and tragic. :( Makes me wonder if Kyle was a sociopath before he donned the regime's uniform or if he turned that way later on.
awake
02-08-2012, 03:11 PM
Wow. I never imagined someone in the MIC would come out and admit that they like killing civilians. Interesting and tragic. :( Makes me wonder if Kyle was a sociopath before he donned the regime's uniform or if he turned that way later on.
With out men like this, either trained or born that way, the prison camp "society " could not be possible. Millions of mindless order taking drones are the prerequisite.
I respect the courage to give ones life to defend what is important, but allowing another human to take unquestioning control of your mind and actions is to allow him to trade your life for the aggrandizement of his own. And besides, when are you to know that you are simply a false flag write off for the Kings much coveted popularitly poll?
heavenlyboy34
02-08-2012, 03:16 PM
With out men like this, either trained or born that way, the prison camp "society " could not be possible. Millions of mindless order taking drones are the prerequisite.
I respect the courage to give ones life to defend what is important, but allowing another human to take unquestioning control of your mind and actions is to allow him to trade your life for the aggrandizement of his own. And besides, when are you to know that you are simply a false flag write off for the Kings much coveted popularitly poll?
+rep
swiftfoxmark2
02-08-2012, 03:50 PM
This man is the same jackass who openly admitted to assaulting Jessie Ventura on live television. He claimed that Ventura was saying that Green Berets desired death or some such nonsense.
Jessie Ventura could not be reached for comment when he made those claims as he was driving to Mexico, since he refuses to fly commercial anymore.
MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
02-08-2012, 04:28 PM
fuck it im buying a gun.
and this inhuman SAVAGE is now training "cops" how to be like him??
so they will treat us like THAT?
Doesn't sound so crazy anymore, huh. Police are already way over-funded and way over-protected. Police break down american doors in the middle of the night all the time. They're used to it. Pretty soon, there will only be guards, prisoners, and suspected terrorists.
Danke
02-08-2012, 04:28 PM
LOL. And imagine some idiots here at RPF were cheering this guy on because he allegedly decked Jesse Ventura. (And that was probably a BS story.)
I'll try to imagine...
Good for Chris Kyle.
Go Chris Kyle!
Agreed. I hope he got the snot knocked out of him.
noneedtoaggress
02-08-2012, 05:05 PM
With out men like this, either trained or born that way, the prison camp "society " could not be possible. Millions of mindless order taking drones are the prerequisite.
I respect the courage to give ones life to defend what is important, but allowing another human to take unquestioning control of your mind and actions is to allow him to trade your life for the aggrandizement of his own. And besides, when are you to know that you are simply a false flag write off for the Kings much coveted popularitly poll?
++
After all, the practical reason why, when the power is once in the hands of the people, a majority are permitted, and for a long period continue, to rule, is not because they are most likely to be in the right, nor because this seems fairest to the minority, but because they are physically the strongest. But a government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it. Can there not be a government in which majorities do not virtually decide right and wrong, but conscience? — in which majorities decide only those questions to which the rule of expediency is applicable? Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right. It is truly enough said that a corporation has no conscience; but a corporation of conscientious men is a corporation with a conscience. Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice. A common and natural result of an undue respect for law is, that you may see a file of soldiers, colonel, captain, corporal, privates, powder-monkeys,(5) and all, marching in admirable order over hill and dale to the wars, against their wills, ay, against their common sense and consciences, which makes it very steep marching indeed, and produces a palpitation of the heart. They have no doubt that it is a damnable business in which they are concerned; they are all peaceably inclined. Now, what are they? Men at all? or small movable forts and magazines, at the service of some unscrupulous man in power? Visit the Navy Yard, and behold a marine, such a man as an American government can make, or such as it can make a man with its black arts — a mere shadow and reminiscence of humanity, a man laid out alive and standing, and already, as one may say, buried under arms with funeral accompaniments, though it may be
"Not a drum was heard, not a funeral note,
As his corse to the rampart we hurried;
Not a soldier discharged his farewell shot
O'er the grave where our hero we buried."(6)
[5] The mass of men serve the state thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus,(7) etc. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses and dogs. Yet such as these even are commonly esteemed good citizens. Others, as most legislators, politicians, lawyers, ministers, and office-holders, serve the state chiefly with their heads; and, as they rarely make any moral distinctions, they are as likely to serve the devil, without intending it, as God. A very few, as heroes, patriots, martyrs, reformers in the great sense, and men, serve the state with their consciences also, and so necessarily resist it for the most part; and they are commonly treated as enemies by it. A wise man will only be useful as a man, and will not submit to be "clay," and "stop a hole to keep the wind away,"(8) but leave that office to his dust at least: —
http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil1.html
AuH20
02-08-2012, 06:32 PM
AF, can you imagine having 160 souls chasing you around and hanging over your head the day you meet your maker?
I'm pretty sure I'd make up almost any justification to try to make myself feel better about it.
Depends if they were hostile. Not everyone he killed was an innocent bystander.
AuH20
02-08-2012, 06:46 PM
I was watching 'Conan' the other night when he announced this guy as a guest, so I immediately turned it off. Can't even consume mindless entertainment anymore without having to see murderers glorified.
Say what you want about this guy, but I'd want him on my side when the time comes. Secondly, I'm about as equally appalled as the people who declare him as a shameless murderer as the other side who promote him as a real American hero. To be honest, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
Good post. In a sense these kids almost cannot be blamed for this state in which we find them because in so many cases it is all they know.
Consider the various media - television, film, music, and video games. What passes for normal and acceptable today, even if only marginally so, would have made people physically ill in 1950 - literally. Think about it - the environment was systematically changed over the course of about 3 decades wherein the tacit messages shifted from one of the old world values that included a basic respect for self and for life to one of self-loathing and disregard for life, especially that which is human.
Every evening the wife and I watch Roy Rogers and then the Lone Ranger. We started this about a week ago and we are still not used to the differences between not only the content but the implicit messages it transmits. The plots are all hokey by today's standards, but the one thing we both noticed was that rarely does either of the heroes kill. Rather, they wound or shoot the weapons from the hands of the bad guys. These days many will criticize this old-fashioned approach to story telling, citing the tactical advantages of killing any time one is threatened. Being now in my 41st year of the martial arts, threat assessment has been one of the skills I have endeavored to hone to perfection. While I miss the mark at times, my point is that these modern day criticisms of the old shows as cited above are not indicative of a lack of sophistication and the weakness of the writers, but rather are reflective of the mindsets of those criticizing. Those minds generally lack sound threat assessment abilities, which is why they tend to say "when in doubt, kill them all" - a sign of weakness of character and spirit as well, but I am digressing a bit widely now; the mark of a childish fear, a lack of psychological maturity indicative of a state of arrested emotional development; a sign of just how ignorant and bereft of any moral teaching these people actually are - all marks of modern relativism that has been forced down the throats of the people of the USA.
The people who wrote for those productions were, I contend, actually stronger and had a better sense of gradation in the assessment of threats than do the kids today and I believe that this is at least in part due to having been raised to respect life and themselves. Today's culture is a shrieking clarion of self-hatred and degradation weakly disguised as "freedom" and made manifest in rampant self-indulgence. This culture wherein self-control is demonized in favor of doing whatever moves one is a culture where consequences seem to be utterly reversed, thereby reversing the incentives. What I mean is this: videogames often entail all manner of killing, theft, destruction, and so forth, yet there are no appreciable consequences for one's actions. This absence of consequences, and therefore the requirement of self-responsibility, is rampant. On the other hand failures to conform to what I find to be idiotic and trivial "social norms" hold consequences that many young people appear to take very seriously. God forbid you were not "hot", and so forth - shallow stupidity taken to all time new lows.
The point here is that these kids have been marinaded in demented culture that has steered them away from most of what an older generation might see as decent. How can they be held to a standard that is mostly foreign to them? They are the products of not only the media/gaming culture, but of the school system that has increasingly taught them that "it's all good"; relativism run amok. It matter not a whit what the explicit messages may admonish when the tacit ones give the old wink-wink nudge-nudge and the kids are ready to eat it up, especially when it means they can make their dicks happy or what have you and bear no responsibility for their actions. This culture has manufactured these demented miscreants. It is difficult to hold them strictly responsible for their attitudes, all appeals to "commons sense" notwithstanding because it isn't at all common.
We as a nation are in a real corner. How does one correct this insanity? How does one make personal responsibility and respect for life attractive to those who have been taught, however tacitly, to hate these things above all else?
I have no answers.
And for the record, I find this great hero-sniper to be an odious and repulsive cockroach. My sincere apologies to all cockroaches. But my prevailing sense of reason bids me keep my emotional impulses in my pants. Our great modern and progressive culture, one that has been largely imposed upon us against our desires by people whose motives may be anyone's guess, has manufactured millions of individuals incapable of living in a free society as we commonly take it. How does one repair so much human wreckage?
The other telling aspect of this is the praise that is being heaped upon such people. This guy was on Hannity last week and Sean had his top-quality, Sunday best sniper knee pads on for this guy. I did not listen to the interview, but the build up indicated major oral sex for his guest. The culture reinforces this rank insanity and shows no indication of easing up. Mr. Rock, meet Mr. Hardplace.
youngbuck
02-08-2012, 07:24 PM
That was a good read with an enjoyable writing style. Thanks for posting.
Say what you want about this guy, but I'd want him on my side when the time comes. Secondly, I'm about as equally appalled as the people who declare him as a shameless murderer as the other side who promote him as a real American hero. To be honest, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
That he is a murderer cannot be plausibly argued against, thought the point is somewhat orthogonal to the discussion.
I believe the OP makes the centrally valid and salient point that his attitude of enjoying the killing is the real crux of the problem and the self damning evidence of his criminal insanity. CF the passage about the SS, above, where those observed as deriving pleasure from their gruesome duty were weeded out. And those were the fucking NAZIs! Even they had greater respect for human life than do these young kids. Even they were less brainwashed and conditioned to utter perversion than are many of these young people. Even the NAZIs possessed a moral standard of behavior and living that these yojng Americans lack almost completely. The significance of the implications of this truth is difficult to overstate. Many of these people can be made willing and eager to commit almost any act asked of them; of that I hold vanishingly small doubt.
AuH20
02-08-2012, 07:33 PM
That he is a murderer cannot be plausibly argued against, thought the point is somewhat orthogonal to the discussion.
I believe the OP makes the centrally valid and salient point that his attitude of enjoying the killing is the real crux of the problem and the self damning evidence of his criminal insanity. CF the passage about the SS, above, where those observed as deriving pleasure from their gruesome duty were weeded out. And those were the fucking NAZIs! Even they had greater respect for human life than do these young kids. Even they were less brainwashed and conditioned to utter perversion than are many of these young people. Even the NAZIs possessed a moral standard of behavior and living that these yojng Americans lack almost completely. The significance of the implications of this truth is difficult to overstate. Many of these people can be made willing and eager to commit almost any act asked of them; of that I hold vanishingly small doubt.
But in many of these ill conceived conflicts, an individual is forced to fight for the survival of his team. That's the salient truth in all this. Imagine if you are the lead sniper for a patrol unit and it is your defined role to eliminate all threats to that unit. That's why I not onboard with all this harsh judgement against Kyle. With all that said, his grisly role should not be glorified by the MSM.
donnay
02-08-2012, 07:44 PM
Say what you want about this guy, but I'd want him on my side when the time comes. Secondly, I'm about as equally appalled as the people who declare him as a shameless murderer as the other side who promote him as a real American hero. To be honest, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
Hmm, hard to revere him as an American hero when he is murdering people in an unlawful war.
AuH20
02-08-2012, 07:49 PM
Hmm, hard to revere him as an American hero when he is murdering people in an unlawful war.
He's neither. Kyle did not initiate the foray into Afghanistan. It's very difficult to classify him as a murderer given what we know, especially when you consider that many of the individuals he killed would not have hesitated to do the same to Kyle as well as his team members. Both sides in this conflict are the victims because they are forced to make difficult, inhumane decisions for the sake of survival. It's very similar to gladiatorial combat.
But in many of these ill conceived conflicts, an individual is forced to fight for the survival of his team. That's the salient truth in all this. Imagine if you are the lead sniper for a patrol unit and it is your defined role to eliminate all threats to that unit. That's why I not onboard with all this harsh judgement against Kyle. With all that said, his grisly role should not be glorified by the MSM.
You point is well taken, but it remains orthogonal to the discussion. Yes, when forced into a situation one does what one feels is necessary to survive. No reasonable person argues against this... I think. The main issue I took away from the excerpted quote is that of deriving pleasure and pride in the taking of human life and of reducing the enemy to the status of despised objects to be hated and whose lives are to be disregarded as such. This is the sort of thing that has gone on for centuries, if not longer. It has of late, however, become a thing used indiscriminately to the point of being commonplace and indeed part of a new sense of "normal" - a perfect circumstance for the despotic exercise of power where nearly anything can be asked of one's assets so long as accountability is taken care of.
In no way am I trying to imply that all our young armed forces personnel are necessarily in such a mode, in case I was not clear on that point. I do, however, believe that a significant proportion of those people would need very little coaxing to behaviors with which few of us here could find acceptable. But I may be wrong and sincerely hope that in this I have mis-measured our own.
Austrian Econ Disciple
02-08-2012, 08:48 PM
It's obvious to see what they are doing to anyone that has two eyes and a brain. Iraq and Afghanistan was the training grounds for the domestic boot-thugs who will do to us what they have done in those two territories. That's all they know. We are the enemy. We are to be confiscated, rounded up, detained indefinitely, and tortured. They've all ready started the process in the house of assholes on the Potomac and in State Congress' around the country.
Are we going to lay down and take it or organize and resist?
NEVER EVER give up your weapons and defense capabilities. You will most assuredly become a statistic of the State if you do.
Patrick Henry:
And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years, to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves, and the House? Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with these war-like preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled, that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask, gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us; they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done, to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne. In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free˛ if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending˛if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us!
specsaregood
02-08-2012, 08:53 PM
Depends if they were hostile. Not everyone he killed was an innocent bystander.
I never insinuated they were. Hostile or not, innocent or guilty, it doesn't matter; they are still lives that he took and has to carry around with him.
Do you think they must think this way in order to not go insane?
They are insane.
QuickZ06
02-09-2012, 12:18 AM
Nice read. The government tried to get in my head, but failed.
Anti Federalist
02-09-2012, 06:36 AM
LOL. And imagine some idiots here at RPF were cheering this guy on because he allegedly decked Jesse Ventura. (And that was probably a BS story.)
Wait wait wait...THIS is the douchebag that was running around claiming he cold cocked Ventura?
Fuck this asshole. :mad:
We'll probably find out years later that all his "kills" were bullshit and unconfirmed.
Anti Federalist
02-09-2012, 06:40 AM
Say what you want about this guy, but I'd want him on my side when the time comes.
He won't be.
Government has made it clear that we are the enemy.
Kyle and people like him will be blowing the brain caps off your wife and children and you, when the time comes.
This man is the face of the enemy.
Ignore that fact at your own peril.
Anti Federalist
02-09-2012, 06:44 AM
I'll try to imagine...
Worth re-posting
Originally Posted by jmdrake
LOL. And imagine some idiots here at RPF were cheering this guy on because he allegedly decked Jesse Ventura. (And that was probably a BS story.)
I'll try to imagine...
Originally Posted by William R
Good for Chris Kyle.
Originally Posted by GeorgiaAvenger
Go Chris Kyle!
Originally Posted by LibertyEagle
Agreed. I hope he got the snot knocked out of him.
speciallyblend
02-09-2012, 06:53 AM
Worth re-posting
Originally Posted by jmdrake
LOL. And imagine some idiots here at RPF were cheering this guy on because he allegedly decked Jesse Ventura. (And that was probably a BS story.)
I'll try to imagine...
Originally Posted by William R
Good for Chris Kyle.
Originally Posted by GeorgiaAvenger
Go Chris Kyle!
Originally Posted by LibertyEagle
Agreed. I hope he got the snot knocked out of him.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
very disturbing, Adam Kokesh is my friend and a very stand up guy fighting for Liberty!!
Anti Federalist
02-09-2012, 07:00 AM
Got a neg rep for this thread:
I am a cop and a patriot... your first sentence is very insulting to someone who guards you while you sleep
My response:
You cannot be a cop and a patriot.
If you are cop, then you are enforcing the laws of a government that has gone bad and tyrannical.
If you are a patriot, then you need to realize this and turn in your badge.
The daily reports of heavy handed and militarized police responses, that reflect a standing army's response to a hostile force, are facilitated by training carried out by people just like Kyle.
People that train police that we, the people, are a threat to be neutralized with increasingly hostile force.
And while I'm sorry that you were insulted, I never asked for, nor do I want, your brand of "protection".
Can you direct me to where I can "opt out"?
Didn't think so...
noneedtoaggress
02-09-2012, 07:21 AM
Got a neg rep for this thread:
My response:
You cannot be a cop and a patriot.
If you are cop, then you are enforcing the laws of a government that has gone bad and tyrannical.
If you are a patriot, then you need to realize this and turn in your badge.
The daily reports of heavy handed and militarized police responses, that reflect a standing army's response to a hostile force, are facilitated by training carried out by people just like Kyle.
People that train police that we, the people, are a threat to be neutralized with increasingly hostile force.
And while I'm sorry that you were insulted, I never asked for, nor do I want, your brand of "protection".
Can you direct me to where I can "opt out"?
Didn't think so...
+rep
A Son of Liberty
02-09-2012, 07:27 AM
"Guard you while you sleep"???
Pretty high opinion of yourself much? Good grief...
Self-important ass...
noneedtoaggress
02-09-2012, 07:29 AM
"Guard you while you sleep"???
Pretty high opinion of yourself much? Good grief...
Self-important ass...
Lol, I was gonna mention that my shotgun never issued me a traffic ticket. :D
flightlesskiwi
02-09-2012, 07:45 AM
very well written piece.
profiting off of and taking utter pride in killing-- "justified" or no-- this man is an egoist.
i wonder if this man is running around claiming Christianity. unless he repents of his foolish pride and puts on the humility of Christ-- which does not come naturally-- he is nothing more to me than a whitewashed tomb.
ah, yes:
The son of a Sunday-school teacher and a church deacon, Kyle credits a higher authority for his longest kill.
From 2,100 yards away from a village just outside of Sadr City in 2008, he spied a man aiming a rocket launcher at an Army convoy and squeezed off one shot from his .338 Lapua Magnum rifle.
Dead. From more than a mile away.
“God blew that bullet and hit him,” he said.
in you there is no truth, your throat is an open grave, Chris Kyle, and your heart is filled with destruction.
A Son of Liberty
02-09-2012, 07:47 AM
What a sick, twisted individual.
Patrick Henry:
And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years, to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves, and the House? Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with these war-like preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled, that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask, gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us; they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done, to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne. In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free˛ if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending˛if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained, we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of Hosts is all that is left us!
Sadly I say that this quote perfectly capsules our situation today, only our foe is far and away more vicious, better prepared, better positioned, and ever more willing to see blood pour by however many servings they may deem fit to their cause. I do fully believe with nary a hint of doubt that this foe would kill every last American if they felt they could get away with it and that it suited them so to do. They are monsters in the most profoundly literal sense and as the days pass it becomes clear to me that our future as Americans, as people who once knew the waning waft of freedom's scent will soon enough be forced into a decision to fight or surrender forever what little knowledge of liberty they may have once held. To every many in this nation shall the question be put and to the same shall be made, either by deliberation or the default of evasion. There shall be no escaping the choice, of that much I am well certain.
As Dr. Paul has been quoted, let it not be said that we did nothing. As for Patrick Henry, to my eyes he was the greatest among his peers precisely because of his wholly uncompromising attitude. If I did not know better, I would suspect he and I were distant kin for the utter refusal to abdicate that which is inherently ours at any level, in any manner, or to any degree. If there is truly heaven and hell, there is no doubt in my mind to which focus he repaired. He has and always shall have my greatest respect and my most fond regard and admiration. Which of his peers were his equal?
Pericles
02-09-2012, 09:32 AM
Personally, if I was going to comment on this, I'd just show this "trophy pic" of an FBI sniper with a dead Branch Davidian in the back ground at Waco.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XfpcwmoMNSk/TzOjTb9CJ6I/AAAAAAAALZw/QOL3D4ebed8/s1600/Wacovictor.jpg
RiseAgainst
02-09-2012, 09:52 AM
Got a neg rep for this thread:
My response:
You cannot be a cop and a patriot.
If you are cop, then you are enforcing the laws of a government that has gone bad and tyrannical.
If you are a patriot, then you need to realize this and turn in your badge.
The daily reports of heavy handed and militarized police responses, that reflect a standing army's response to a hostile force, are facilitated by training carried out by people just like Kyle.
People that train police that we, the people, are a threat to be neutralized with increasingly hostile force.
And while I'm sorry that you were insulted, I never asked for, nor do I want, your brand of "protection".
Can you direct me to where I can "opt out"?
Didn't think so...
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.
Revolution9
02-09-2012, 10:27 AM
Got a neg rep for this thread:
My response:
You cannot be a cop and a patriot.
If you are cop, then you are enforcing the laws of a government that has gone bad and tyrannical.
If you are a patriot, then you need to realize this and turn in your badge.
The daily reports of heavy handed and militarized police responses, that reflect a standing army's response to a hostile force, are facilitated by training carried out by people just like Kyle.
People that train police that we, the people, are a threat to be neutralized with increasingly hostile force.
And while I'm sorry that you were insulted, I never asked for, nor do I want, your brand of "protection".
Can you direct me to where I can "opt out"?
Didn't think so...
Who is this cop? Shouldn't he rightfully, if he understood his trade and craft be called a Policeman? A cop is a gangster term. Ain't no cop ever guarded me while I was asleep. The cop who lived downstairs from me kept me up all night many time with her lesbian disco parties. Calling the cops on her never worked for some reason.
Rev9
AuH20
02-09-2012, 10:35 AM
very well written piece.
profiting off of and taking utter pride in killing-- "justified" or no-- this man is an egoist.
i wonder if this man is running around claiming Christianity. unless he repents of his foolish pride and puts on the humility of Christ-- which does not come naturally-- he is nothing more to me than a whitewashed tomb.
ah, yes:
in you there is no truth, your throat is an open grave, Chris Kyle, and your heart is filled with destruction.
As a sniper, you have to be a supremely confident individual. I don't have a problem with his attitude but I wish the MSM wasn't glamorizing his occupation.
A Son of Liberty
02-09-2012, 10:40 AM
As a sniper, you have to be a supremely confident individual. I don't have a problem with his attitude but I wish the MSM wasn't glamorizing his occupation.
I have a gigantic problem with his attitude when he professes that it is instructed by Christianity.
AuH20
02-09-2012, 10:41 AM
Do you think they must think this way in order to not go insane?
No, it has more to do with maintaining a state of mind that is clear of distractions. A moment of hesitation or deliberation can be deadly in a potential combat situation. If I'm forced to fight the government, I want to be as efficient and cold blooded as Kyle was in Afghanistan.
A Son of Liberty
02-09-2012, 10:44 AM
I would NEVER be a sniper for the empire. If they managed to force me into their "service", the best they could hope from me would be to "serve" as a corpsman.
RiseAgainst
02-09-2012, 11:07 AM
Who is this cop? Shouldn't he rightfully, if he understood his trade and craft be called a Policeman? A cop is a gangster term. Ain't no cop ever guarded me while I was asleep. The cop who lived downstairs from me kept me up all night many time with her lesbian disco parties. Calling the cops on her never worked for some reason.
Rev9
No silly. Those are the benevolent good people who NEED a monopoly on violence over you in order to keep the bad boogeymen at bay. You just want anarchy, don't you?
LOL. And imagine some idiots here at RPF were cheering this guy on because he allegedly decked Jesse Ventura. (And that was probably a BS story.)
sounds like a pattern here
Snipe and run
Punch and run...
Hmmmmmm
Revolution9
02-09-2012, 11:53 AM
No silly. Those are the benevolent good people who NEED a monopoly on violence over you in order to keep the bad boogeymen at bay. You just want anarchy, don't you?
Nope. I want people who hold office to do only the duties of that office with no favoritism. I have no time to track down speed freaks who steal my shit and they would if they didn't think the local cops might hoosegaw them. Yer a hoot in that you take the anarchy that has infested the republic and point at that as an example of the state's violence. Ya see grasshopper, when an officer hold an office of duty and fails in that calling and is not prosecuted nor removed immediately upon infraction then that is anarchy taking embedment in government. So..no.. I don't want anarchy. I already have it to a degree I am highly uncomfortable with. I want the government to do it's job according to the law of the land with no favoritism. Nothing more and nothing less.
Revolution9
02-09-2012, 11:56 AM
I would NEVER be a sniper for the empire. If they managed to force me into their "service", the best they could hope from me would be to "serve" as a corpsman.
I was offered 97 trades. I chose medic. I shoulda chose aerospace mechanic or cartography but I was a bit scared of math but I figured I may have to kill by proxy in those trades as well.. Now I know that was due to shitty math teachers. Also, that was in the days of hand calculation on paper. Computers make math so easy in practice.
Rev9
heavenlyboy34
02-09-2012, 11:58 AM
Nope. I want people who hold office to do only the duties of that office with no favoritism. I have no time to track down speed freaks who steal my shit and they would if they didn't think the local cops might hoosegaw them. Yer a hoot in that you take the anarchy that has infested the republic and point at that as an example of the state's violence. Ya see grasshopper, when an officer hold an office of duty and fails in that calling and is not prosecuted nor removed immediately upon infraction then that is anarchy taking embedment in government. So..no.. I don't want anarchy. I already have it to a degree I am highly uncomfortable with. I want the government to do it's job according to the law of the land with no favoritism. Nothing more and nothing less.
This has never happened in human history. What is your plan to change this?
RiseAgainst
02-09-2012, 01:17 PM
Nope. I want people who hold office to do only the duties of that office with no favoritism. I have no time to track down speed freaks who steal my shit and they would if they didn't think the local cops might hoosegaw them. Yer a hoot in that you take the anarchy that has infested the republic and point at that as an example of the state's violence. Ya see grasshopper, when an officer hold an office of duty and fails in that calling and is not prosecuted nor removed immediately upon infraction then that is anarchy taking embedment in government. So..no.. I don't want anarchy. I already have it to a degree I am highly uncomfortable with. I want the government to do it's job according to the law of the land with no favoritism. Nothing more and nothing less.
Hmm...
People are bad.
Therefore
We need a body with monopoly power on violence to protect us from the bad people.
We will fill this body with....people (who are bad).
Does that sum up your position?
flightlesskiwi
02-09-2012, 01:47 PM
the MSM is glamorizing his occupation because HE chose to glamorize his occupation. he could have faded into oblivion as, from my understanding, many in the SOCOM world do, but he chose to write a book and go on tour to promote his "achievements", i.e. his killings.
also, one can be confident and posses humility. i see neither in this man. he is a whitewashed tomb.
As a sniper, you have to be a supremely confident individual. I don't have a problem with his attitude but I wish the MSM wasn't glamorizing his occupation.
I am a cop and a patriot... your first sentence is very insulting to someone who guards you while you sleep
lol
http://subversatile.net/pics/denile.jpg
Anti Federalist
02-09-2012, 05:23 PM
LoL ^^^
ryanmkeisling
02-09-2012, 05:38 PM
I'll try to imagine...
Yeah it brought the neocons right out of the woodwork. These were also the ones crying about how OWS was going to ruin everything, and people using course language on an internet forum were going to ruin the election for Ron Paul. This represents the fringe of freedom lovers and the liberty minded. To these types freedom is self defined.
awake
02-09-2012, 08:30 PM
1255
Anti Federalist
02-29-2012, 10:29 PM
"Jesse Ventura suing this asshole" bump
Anti Federalist
02-29-2012, 10:41 PM
Who is this cop? Shouldn't he rightfully, if he understood his trade and craft be called a Policeman? A cop is a gangster term. Ain't no cop ever guarded me while I was asleep. The cop who lived downstairs from me kept me up all night many time with her lesbian disco parties. Calling the cops on her never worked for some reason.
Rev9
Happily, we had a PM dialog and reached an understanding.
He even put in a "friend" request.
flightlesskiwi
03-01-2012, 08:09 AM
"Jesse Ventura suing this asshole" bump
i would US Citizen (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?363721-America-1950-vs.-America-2012&p=4226917&viewfull=1#post4226917) you and ask for a link. but i'm not on a power trip so i'll look it up myself. :p
Stupified
03-01-2012, 10:10 AM
He sounds like every early American immigrant when talking about the Native Americans. It saddens me that we're not past this kind of thinking.
"I looked through the scope,” Kyle recalls. “The only people who were moving were [a] woman and maybe a child or two nearby. I watched the troops pull up. Ten young, proud Marines in uniform got out of their vehicles and gathered for a foot patrol. As the Americans organized, the woman took something from beneath her clothes, and yanked at it. She’d set a grenade.”
Kyle shot the woman twice.
“It was my duty to shoot, and I don’t regret it,” Kyle attests. “The woman was already dead. I was just making sure she didn’t take any Marines with her. It was clear that not only did she want to kill them, but she didn’t care about anybody else nearby who would have been blown up by the grenade or killed in the firefight. Children on the street, people in the houses, maybe her child….”
Of course, if the Marines hadn’t invaded that woman’s neighborhood, she wouldn’t have been driven to take such desperate action – but Kyle either cannot or will not understand the motives of an Iraqi patriot.[/SIZE]
While I of course object to the way he describes her as an "evil savage," I have no problem with what he did here. Even though the war was an invasion for all the wrong reasons, you always protect your comrades. It WAS his duty to shoot. I hope no one here would watch a group of marines die over a grenade when they had the chance to stop it.
Anti Federalist
03-01-2012, 12:01 PM
i would US Citizen (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?363721-America-1950-vs.-America-2012&p=4226917&viewfull=1#post4226917) you and ask for a link. but i'm not on a power trip so i'll look it up myself. :p
Your wish...
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?364213-MN-Jesse-Ventura-sues-quot-American-Sniper-quot-author-Chris-Kyle-for-libel.
Revolution9
03-01-2012, 12:11 PM
Hmm...
People are bad.
Therefore
We need a body with monopoly power on violence to protect us from the bad people.
We will fill this body with....people (who are bad).
Does that sum up your position?
Nope. Sounds like you write for Sesame Street.
Rev9
Revolution9
03-01-2012, 12:15 PM
This has never happened in human history. What is your plan to change this?
Tomorrow never happened in human history. Didja know over 100 big shot bankster resigned out of nowhere or were arrested since the beginning of the year? Do a google on Police Chiefs resigning last year.
Rev9
Voluntary Man
03-01-2012, 12:27 PM
AF, can you imagine having 160 souls chasing you around and hanging over your head the day you meet your maker?
I'm pretty sure I'd make up almost any justification to try to make myself feel better about it.
Maybe, but if those justifications hadn't been adopted PRIOR to his misdeeds, the situation you describe could've been averted.
Anti Federalist
03-01-2012, 12:35 PM
Got his "combat quals".
Personally, if I was going to comment on this, I'd just show this "trophy pic" of an FBI sniper with a dead Branch Davidian in the back ground at Waco.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XfpcwmoMNSk/TzOjTb9CJ6I/AAAAAAAALZw/QOL3D4ebed8/s1600/Wacovictor.jpg
LibertyEagle
03-01-2012, 12:41 PM
Worth re-posting
Originally Posted by jmdrake
LOL. And imagine some idiots here at RPF were cheering this guy on because he allegedly decked Jesse Ventura. (And that was probably a BS story.)
I'll try to imagine...
Originally Posted by William R
Good for Chris Kyle.
Originally Posted by GeorgiaAvenger
Go Chris Kyle!
Originally Posted by LibertyEagle
Agreed. I hope he got the snot knocked out of him.
I just now saw this.
I see that you didn't mention that at the time I, and others, thought that Ventura had insulted a dead serviceman at his wake, in front of the dead's Mother. And you betcha, if that had really happened, he should have gotten the snot knocked out of him.
I also notice that you didn't say one damn word about those who also believed this happened and celebrated what they thought Ventura had done. I would think that you would have had a problem with those actions too.
You also didn't mention that when your wife posted that Ventura said this did not happen, that I immediately posted that I should not have believed the story without further investigation and my apology.
But, the little idiots who applauded what they thought Ventura had done remained silent and apparently, that is just fine and dandy with you and your buds.
But, nice job of plucking and posting. Not very honest, but whatever floats your boat. One thing though. Be really careful that you are not becoming what you hate so very much.
Anti Federalist
03-01-2012, 12:53 PM
Oh Jesus, I don't have a clique of "buds".
I did not see the thread where you apologized for taking Kyle at his word initially.
If that's the case, I cheerfully withdraw my comment.
However, I'm not going to be distracted from the critical point of this post and Grigg's article:
That this man is now training domestic police forces.
I just now saw this.
I see that you didn't mention that at the time I, and others, thought that Ventura had insulted a dead serviceman at his wake, in front of the dead's Mother. And you betcha, if that had really happened, he should have gotten the snot knocked out of him.
I also notice that you didn't say one damn word about those who also believed this happened and celebrated what they thought Ventura had done. I would think that you would have had a problem with those actions too.
You also didn't mention that when your wife posted that Ventura said this did not happen, that I immediately posted that I should not have believed the story without further investigation and my apology.
But, the little idiots who applauded what they thought Ventura had done remained silent and apparently, that is just fine and dandy with you and your buds.
But, nice job of plucking and posting. Not very honest, but whatever floats your boat. One thing though. Be really careful that you are not becoming what you hate so very much.
LibertyEagle
03-01-2012, 12:58 PM
It was in the same damn thread, AF.
Now, where is your post damning those who APPLAUDED what they thought Ventura had done? Eh????!!
However, I'm not going to be distracted from the critical point of this post and Grigg's article
You had no damn problem distracting yourself to attack me, now did you.
donnay
03-01-2012, 01:04 PM
All the haters jumped on board to smear Jesse Ventura. That's how it all began. They were elated to hear someone allegedly smacked-down Jesse.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?346680-Ventura-is-dangerous-to-the-campaign-for-liberty/page3&highlight=Navy+Seal+Chris+Kyle
I hope Jesse sues his ass (Chris Kyle) into oblivion!! This was he can go bankrupt and his company cannot train cops!!
jmdrake
03-01-2012, 01:05 PM
I just now saw this.
I see that you didn't mention that at the time I, and others, thought that Ventura had insulted a dead serviceman at his wake, in front of the dead's Mother. And you betcha, if that had really happened, he should have gotten the snot knocked out of him.
I also notice that you didn't say one damn word about those who also believed this happened and celebrated what they thought Ventura had done. I would think that you would have had a problem with those actions too.
You also didn't mention that when your wife posted that Ventura said this did not happen, that I immediately posted that I should not have believed the story without further investigation and my apology.
But, the little idiots who applauded what they thought Ventura had done remained silent and apparently, that is just fine and dandy with you and your buds.
But, nice job of plucking and posting. Not very honest, but whatever floats your boat. One thing though. Be really careful that you are not becoming what you hate so very much.
:rolleyes:
From the thread in question:
People!!!
Do you realize what a wake is?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wake
The soldier was dead. If for no other reason, Jesse should have had respect for the soldier's parents, who were there.
And people replying to you:
You do realize it is highly unconventional to hold a wake in a bar don't you?
This story is one side only and has not been verified at all.
From the story:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/what-caused-a-navy-seal-to-punch-jesse-ventura-in-the-face/
"It was in 2006 when Ventura and the SEALs happened to be in the same bar, for very different reasons. The SEALs were holding a wake to honor a lost member of their team. Jesse was in town to speak to some new graduates of the SEAL program. During his military career from 1969-75, Ventura was a member of the Navy’s elite Underwater Demolition Team or UDT (the UDT was the precursor to the SEALs) and Jesse is a SEAL reservist. You might expect that sharing the history of membership in an elite military unit would garner a lifetime of mutual respect. Not so with Ventura."
Jesse doesn't drink hasn't drank alcohol in over a decade. I think this story is a psyops, myself.
So you were immediately willing to assume what was obviously a BS story was "true".
And for the record nobody said "Good job Jesse for (allegedly) insulting SEALs at some wake in a bar"! Go back and read the thread. That's your imagination. The closest anyone ever came to that was this:
To me it's like honoring a Nazi soldier who was merely "following orders." I'm sure Navy SEALS (and the Germans) are overall good people but to celebrate someone for killing people in an unjustified war is infuriating.
There is a difference between that and someone saying "Good job Jesse for interrupting an (alleged) wake!" Some folks don't go for the whole "Let's honor the troops even though we don't agree with what their doing" thing. Every time I sit through some "memorial day service" where the pastor says "Let's all honor those who are serving around the world so that we can be free" I think to myself "What the hell does fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and Uganda and fill in the blank have to do with my freedom? And why am I becoming decided LESS free with restrictions on travel and private phone conversations and now even loss of the 4th and 5th amendments if these soldiers are somehow keeping me free". Now do I get up and say that? No. I have respect for the people carrying out the program even though I don't have respect for their message. The same could very well be true for "Napolitanic Wars".
Last quote from that thread that should be noted:
If you think Ron Paul is losing voters because of threads on Ron Paul Forums then you truly need to take the tin foil off the top of your head, crawl out of the little box you live in, and walk out into the real world where the majority of people don't spend hours reading the same shit from the same people posted on here every day.
If everybody who tries to police things said online by Ron Paul supporters did anything else with that time we'd probably be ahead in the polls right now. Seriously.
flightlesskiwi
03-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Your wish...
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?364213-MN-Jesse-Ventura-sues-quot-American-Sniper-quot-author-Chris-Kyle-for-libel.
I US Citizened you while claiming to not US Citizening you!! /WIN!
Anti Federalist
03-01-2012, 02:02 PM
It was in the same damn thread, AF.
Now, where is your post damning those who APPLAUDED what they thought Ventura had done? Eh????!!
You had no damn problem distracting yourself to attack me, now did you.
I think John has already done a bang up job showing that nobody was "applauding" what Ventura was alleged to have done.
I am still willing to cheerfully withdraw my statement in light of the fact that you came back and apologized when it became clear that the story was unlikely true.
But c'mon, just own the fact that you dislike Ventura, you've made that very clear, and jumped on an opportunity to bash him, before knowing what was going on.
Oh, and lets not suggest that I am somehow being disingenuous by stating that I never saw the post.
I've got a lot of shit going on outside of commenting on things here, and routinely miss posts, comments and questions.
Anti Federalist
03-01-2012, 03:20 PM
It was in the same damn thread, AF.
Now, where is your post damning those who APPLAUDED what they thought Ventura had done? Eh????!!
You had no damn problem distracting yourself to attack me, now did you.
For the record.
If this:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?346680-Ventura-is-dangerous-to-the-campaign-for-liberty/page5&highlight=Navy+Seal+Chris+Kyle
Is the thread to which are are referring, you need to note that I did not post or comment in that thread, and was largely unaware of its contents until just now, when it was forwarded to me, along with some acidic PMs.
The Free Hornet
03-01-2012, 03:26 PM
While I of course object to the way he describes her as an "evil savage," I have no problem with what he did here. Even though the war was an invasion for all the wrong reasons, you always protect your comrades. It WAS his duty to shoot. I hope no one here would watch a group of marines die over a grenade when they had the chance to stop it.
Are these marines attacking my US neighborhood or attacking Iraq and why should that matter if the invasion is unjustified?
Perhaps I read your point wrong. Should it be, "If I was an asshole part of a larger group of assholes and some non-asshole tried to kill my fellow assholes, then I would totally kill that non-asshole for trying to kill us assholes."
It is an honest sentiment, but I would not attach the word "duty" to it. His duty is to the Constitution.
jmdrake
03-01-2012, 03:36 PM
For the record.
If this:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?346680-Ventura-is-dangerous-to-the-campaign-for-liberty/page5&highlight=Navy+Seal+Chris+Kyle
Is the thread to which are are referring, you need to note that I did not post or comment in that thread, and was largely unaware of its contents until just now, when it was forwarded to me, along with some acidic PMs.
Okay. So now that you have the link and LibertyEagles acidic PMs, can you explain to the rest of us what precisely she's talking about when she said people "applauded" Jesse for allegedly saying something at an alleged wake that was held, in all places, a bar? Cause reading through the thread all I see is people saying:
1) Chris Kyle seems like a jerk.
2) The story sounds like BS
3) People typically don't have wakes in bars
4) You can't claim property rights over someone else's establishment just because you decide that's where you want to grieve.
I seriously didn't see anyone say "Yippie! Glad Ventura publicly called those SEALs out for being dishonorable killers!" But maybe I just missed it.
Anti Federalist
03-01-2012, 03:57 PM
Okay. So now that you have the link and LibertyEagles acidic PMs, can you explain to the rest of us what precisely she's talking about when she said people "applauded" Jesse for allegedly saying something at an alleged wake that was held, in all places, a bar? Cause reading through the thread all I see is people saying:
1) Chris Kyle seems like a jerk.
2) The story sounds like BS
3) People typically don't have wakes in bars
4) You can't claim property rights over someone else's establishment just because you decide that's where you want to grieve.
I seriously didn't see anyone say "Yippie! Glad Ventura publicly called those SEALs out for being dishonorable killers!" But maybe I just missed it.
The PMs were from various people.
And, I don't see it either.
Now, I'm willing to concede that there may have been some sort of "memorial party" going on for a soldier that had been killed.
But I'm thinking this is all bullshit, that Kyle maybe wishes he did what he said, because I imagine he's pretty hostile to JV's non interventionism.
That's usually how bullshit sea stories start out, wishing so and so did such and such, and then from there, they actually did such and such.
jmdrake
03-01-2012, 04:13 PM
The PMs were from various people.
And, I don't see it either.
Now, I'm willing to concede that there may have been some sort of "memorial party" going on for a soldier that had been killed.
But I'm thinking this is all bullshit, that Kyle maybe wishes he did what he said, because I imagine he's pretty hostile to JV's non interventionism.
That's usually how bullshit sea stories start out, wishing so and so did such and such, and then from there, they actually did such and such.
Okay. My apologies to LE for assuming she sent the PMs.
As for the memorial theory, that's probably right. Some folks getting together and saying "Let's go to Jimbob's favorite watering hole and throw a few down for the skipper". Who knows ultimately what the hell happened? Bottom line is that if Jesse said what he allegedly said (and I don't think he did) I disagree with him saying that. But I more strongly disagree with physical assaulting someone just because they said something you didn't like especially when you are in a venue that you don't own. And I stand by my criticism of those who would applaud physical assault under those circumstances. I got a neg rep for it, but I don't care.
Anti Federalist
03-01-2012, 04:20 PM
Okay. My apologies to LE for assuming she sent the PMs.
As for the memorial theory, that's probably right. Some folks getting together and saying "Let's go to Jimbob's favorite watering hole and throw a few down for the skipper". Who knows ultimately what the hell happened? Bottom line is that if Jesse said what he allegedly said (and I don't think he did) I disagree with him saying that. But I more strongly disagree with physical assaulting someone just because they said something you didn't like especially when you are in a venue that you don't own. And I stand by my criticism of those who would applaud physical assault under those circumstances. I got a neg rep for it, but I don't care.
I'm inclined to think nothing happened.
You don't knock out somebody like JV and not have it show up in the news when it happened.
I'm thinking it's all bullshit on Kyle's part.
The fact that JV is suing and would just end up looking silly if it really did happen, because there would be a ton of witnesses in crowded barroom.
Feeding the Abscess
03-01-2012, 06:01 PM
Okay. So now that you have the link and LibertyEagles acidic PMs, can you explain to the rest of us what precisely she's talking about when she said people "applauded" Jesse for allegedly saying something at an alleged wake that was held, in all places, a bar? Cause reading through the thread all I see is people saying:
1) Chris Kyle seems like a jerk.
2) The story sounds like BS
3) People typically don't have wakes in bars
4) You can't claim property rights over someone else's establishment just because you decide that's where you want to grieve.
I seriously didn't see anyone say "Yippie! Glad Ventura publicly called those SEALs out for being dishonorable killers!" But maybe I just missed it.
I'll say it. I'm glad Ventura called those SEALs out for being dishonorable murderers.
catdd
03-01-2012, 06:18 PM
"Kyle’s “service” continues, even though he’s retired from the military. He is president of Craft International, a Homeland Security contractor involved in training domestic law enforcement agencies. It’s quite likely that Kyle’s outfit will soak up a considerable portion of the roughly $1.5 billion dollars the Obama administration seeks to hire military veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan to work as police, emergency personnel, and park rangers."
I've said all along that many of these war vets are suffering from PTS syndrome and have no business in the police force.
donnay
03-01-2012, 06:30 PM
I'm inclined to think nothing happened.
You don't knock out somebody like JV and not have it show up in the news when it happened.
I'm thinking it's all bullshit on Kyle's part.
The fact that JV is suing and would just end up looking silly if it really did happen, because there would be a ton of witnesses in crowded barroom.
Which is interesting because the guy that owns the bar is an ex-Navy Seal too. Jesse knows the man personally. So, I think that would be the man to ask if anything REALLY happened on that particular day Kyle mentioned.
I think that will be Jesse's Ace in the hole, to sue Kyle for defamation of character.
Anti Federalist
03-01-2012, 07:09 PM
Which is interesting because the guy that owns the bar is an ex-Navy Seal too. Jesse knows the man personally. So, I think that would be the man to ask if anything REALLY happened on that particular day Kyle mentioned.
I think that will be Jesse's Ace in the hole, to sue Kyle for defamation of character.
I hope so.
Hope he wins a bundle.
And donates it RP.
LOL
Feeding the Abscess
03-01-2012, 07:11 PM
Inappropriate flirtation in a publicly visible place?
#677.
Reported.
jmdrake
03-01-2012, 07:18 PM
I'll say it. I'm glad Ventura called those SEALs out for being dishonorable murderers.
Ah well. I guess LE can take joy in being proven right after being proven wrong.
Revolution9
03-01-2012, 08:06 PM
I'll say it. I'm glad Ventura called those SEALs out for being dishonorable murderers.
But he didn't. If you follow the story it is actually Kyle that says such about his fellow SEALs under guise that Ventura said it.
Rev9
Anti Federalist
02-03-2013, 12:43 AM
Relevant bump
Danke
02-03-2013, 01:08 AM
Ah well. I guess LE can take joy in being proven right after being proven wrong.
LE has the sadz now.
bolil
02-03-2013, 01:13 AM
160 trumps carlos hathcock.
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