IMHO, all the anti-Catholic Obama stuff is meant to spur Santorum

[wgadget]

Just my humble opinion.

Go look at drudgereport.com and see what I mean.

[nasaal]

No, it's just meant to get people arguing about stuff that isn't our top priority. It gets both sides pointing fingers and screaming. So when the mighty Iranian empire finds enough gasoline to power a rocket, and we see it before anyone else, we can go blow it up without being looking too deeply into it. After all those poor catholics are forced to get abortions now.

[UK4Paul]

Or Gingrich, the Catholic.

[69360]

It's typical wag the dog. Invent a social crisis to divert attention from the foreign and economic crisis.

[Article V]

No, church-going Catholics take this very seriously and very personally. I assure you the press on this topic is legitimate.

[andy2044]

No, church-going Catholics take this very seriously and very personally. I assure you the press on this topic is legitimate.

I totally agree. As a Catholic myself, I think the HHS mandate is a blow to religious freedom. If this does go through I would strongly consider voting for the Republican nominee, even if it isn't Paul. Up to this point I was NOBP (or third party). But now this will probably have me vote for the Republican nominee whoever it is. This is a major issue.

[GrahamUK]

Whats the big deal? In Britain we have Catholics, and we have legal abortion (not saying i agree with killing un-born babies), just because abortion is legal does NOT mean you have to have one.. Same with contraception, just cos the shop sells condoms your NOT forced to buy them..

I grabed this coment off the article on the Drudge Report,


Noone is forcing Catholics to take birth control or anything else, it is about preventing their beliefs from being forced on non-Catholic employees. The church itself is exempt, but their billions of dollars in hospitals and universities that accept federal funds have to treat all employees with the same rules as every other billion dollar industry. It is about protecting people FROM the Catholic Church and its hypocrisy(why aren't they protesting STD treatments or treating divorced people or viagra??). You should not have to follow a religion to do your job

Now i don't have an issue with this, think about it.. If someone is employed by the Catholic church but NOT a Catholic why should they have Catholic beliefs forced upon them..

[Ronulus]

Whats the big deal? In Britain we have Catholics, and we have legal abortion (not saying i agree with killing un-born babies), just because abortion is legal does NOT mean you have to have one.. Same with contriception, just cos the shop sells condoms your NOT forced to buy them..

They would be forced to provide it though in their insurance. Even if people don't use it, it goes against their beliefs and funding for such a thing is completely against their stances. My wife is a teacher at a catholic school and we are catholic but there are teachers and workers that are not catholic. They are good people but they may not believe the same things as the church as far as abortion goes and may opt to use their insurance for those purposes. If this law ends up getting passed the Diocese has already said they would shut down all catholic schools and hospitals in the diocese as they would not be willing to comply with this mandate (which is a gross infringement on personal freedoms). I am actually going to use this to try and convert people to Dr. Paul as he would never force a religious institution or anyone for that matter to do something like this and how he is most for religious freedoms.

[andy2044]

If this law ends up getting passed the Diocese has already said they would shut down all catholic schools and hospitals in the diocese as they would not be willing to comply with this mandate (which is a gross infringement on personal freedoms).

I hope the bishops go full out civil disobedience on this issue. I talked with a couple people about the Church shutting down hospitals for a day in protest (to show what would happen without Catholic hospitals). The only thing is that they can't do that because they would not turn someone away because they were protesting. If the Church does shut down their services, it would be interesting to see the impact.

[jkr]

Or Gingrich, the Catholic.
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah hahahahahahah

[GrahamUK]

Must just be me and my british-ness cos i still don't really understand what the problem is.. If you dont want to do something then, don't do it, just cos its allowed won't mean its being forced, as you suggest. To me it just seems fair to any minority who would want to take advantage of it..Also seems like their gona have to bring the health care into line with other companies, which is good. Again i think this must be my British-ness thats preventing me from understanding what the fuss is. Beware, mixing politics with your religion is NEVER a good idea, clouds your judgement...

[Ronulus]

Must just be me and my british-ness cos i still don't really understand what the problem is.. If you dont want to do something then, don't do it, just cos its allowed won't mean its being forced, as you suggest. To me it just seems fair to any minority who would want to take advantage of it..Also seems like their gona have to bring the health care into line with other companies, which is good. Again i think this must be my British-ness thats preventing me from understanding what the fuss is. Beware, mixing politics with your religion is NEVER a good idea, clouds your judgement...

Like I said there are employees that aren't catholic and may not agree on certain policies regarding abortion etc. This means the catholic church has to pay for the insurance that funds these abortions for their employees. They can't monitor ever thing a person employeed by them does with their insurance as it would be against privacy laws. It is forced for them to provide the payment and option to the employees insurance. Right they can say "well no employees can use that", but there is no way of tracking that and it also the principle of the thing as that money is there for those procedures.

[jmdrake]

Whats the big deal? In Britain we have Catholics, and we have legal abortion (not saying i agree with killing un-born babies), just because abortion is legal does NOT mean you have to have one.. Same with contraception, just cos the shop sells condoms your NOT forced to buy them..

I grabed this coment off the article on the Drudge Report,



Now i don't have an issue with this, think about it.. If someone is employed by the Catholic church but NOT a Catholic why should they have Catholic beliefs forced upon them..

The fallacy in your argument is the false belief employers should be responsible for health insurance. Health insurance should be like car insurance. Almost everybody has car insurance, almost nobody gets it as a "benefit" of employment, there is much more competition for it than there is for health insurance and it's generally much cheaper. Should an environmentally sensitive company be forced to pay for insurance for a gas guzzling SUV? That's not even a question because employers don't generally provide car insurance.

[Article V]

Whats the big deal? In Britain we have Catholics, and we have legal abortion (not saying i agree with killing un-born babies), just because abortion is legal does NOT mean you have to have one.. Same with contraception, just cos the shop sells condoms your NOT forced to buy them..

Now i don't have an issue with this, think about it.. If someone is employed by the Catholic church but NOT a Catholic why should they have Catholic beliefs forced upon them..The big deal is that Catholic organizations would be legally obligated to earmark their private funds to enable the sins of others.

Catholics see the financial backing of abortion as sin, just as the government sees the financial backing of hitmen as unlawful.
Catholics will hold themselves responsible for murder if their funding is expressly earmarked for this purpose,
just as the government holds a husband responsible for murder if he hires a hitman against his spouse.

How can you not see why this is a big deal to church-going Catholics?

[GrahamUK]

How can you not see why this is a big deal to church-going Catholics?

Perhaps its because im a Protestant and of the Church of Scotland? We just don't have those sorts of problems within our church.. We have the Catholic church too, we also have Catholic schools and other Catholic organisations but our healthcare is completely nationalised by the gov't so the churches don't need to get involved and anyone from any background or denomination can use these services and the church does not have to feel resposible for it..

For the record im against abortion as a matter of personal opinion so please don't feel im trying to argue its legality..

[Guitarzan]

Must just be me and my british-ness cos i still don't really understand what the problem is.. If you dont want to do something then, don't do it, just cos its allowed won't mean its being forced, as you suggest. To me it just seems fair to any minority who would want to take advantage of it..Also seems like their gona have to bring the health care into line with other companies, which is good. Again i think this must be my British-ness thats preventing me from understanding what the fuss is. Beware, mixing politics with your religion is NEVER a good idea, clouds your judgement...


Yes. What you're missing is that the choice of 'doing it or not doing it' is taken away from Catholic enterprises. The gov't isn't giving them a choice as to whether to provide the kind of health care they want. The gov't is stating that they MUST give certain services. So there is no choice.

It's not your 'Britishness'...it's the fact that you are missing the bigger point on what a free society is about, and that is choice. But you're probably missing this bigger point because you're British. You're all one hair away from being total slaves, and you're so happy in your involuntary servitude.

[GrahamUK]

Yes. What you're missing is that the choice of 'doing it or not doing it' is taken away from Catholic enterprises. The gov't isn't giving them a choice as to whether to provide the kind of health care they want. The gov't is stating that they MUST give certain services. So there is no choice.

It's not your 'Britishness'...it's the fact that you are missing the bigger point on what a free society is about, and that is choice. But you're probably missing this bigger point because you're British. You're all one hair away from being total slaves, and you're so happy in your involuntary servitude.

lol..

Yes i guess i'am missing the 'choice' part... So, whats the other option then? I get your point now, if your saying a Catholic doctor might be put into a situation were they are having to perform an abortion on a patient and they believe that that abortion is murder.

On us being slaves... Last time i looked we dont have NDAA, we don't have the death sentence and we don't have FEMA camps.. I know theres alot wrong in my own country and believe me, I'm not happy about it but thats besides the point since it was the last generation that allowed us to become such a socialist society.. At least you guys have the oppertunity to do something about it

[moostraks]

I totally agree. As a Catholic myself, I think the HHS mandate is a blow to religious freedom. If this does go through I would strongly consider voting for the Republican nominee, even if it isn't Paul. Up to this point I was NOBP (or third party). But now this will probably have me vote for the Republican nominee whoever it is. This is a major issue.

Do not be duped into thinking this issue will be any different with the R nominee. The agenda is backed by the financiers who prop up the puppets. Despite what msm shills are harping on today (caught snippet of limbaugh's show), it ain't gonna matter who is elected if it ain't Paul...

[Article V]

Perhaps its because im a Protestant and of the Church of Scotland? We just don't have those sorts of problems within our church.. We have the Catholic church too, we also have Catholic schools and other Catholic organisations but our healthcare is completely nationalised by the gov't so the churches don't need to get involved and anyone from any background or denomination can use these services and the church does not have to feel resposible for it..

For the record im against abortion as a matter of personal opinion so please don't feel im trying to argue its legality..Yeah, that makes sense... except that's not at all this scenario.

In your scenario, the government uses their public funds for sin while the untaxed Church remains uninvolved.
In our scenario, the Church must use their private funds for sin because they're forced by government to become involved.

See the difference? In one, Caesar uses his own money according to his own free will; in the other, Caesar demands the Church be obedient to him over God and surrender their free will to him rather than use it for the salvation of souls.

[GrahamUK]

Yeah, that makes sense... except that's not at all this scenario.


See the difference?

Yes, So whats the answer then? I'm not having a dig at religion here but, wouldn't it just be a lot easier if the church backed out of issues like that and focused on the religious stuff instead? have their employee's source their own healthcare from whichever provider they wished?

[cajuncocoa]

I totally agree. As a Catholic myself, I think the HHS mandate is a blow to religious freedom. If this does go through I would strongly consider voting for the Republican nominee, even if it isn't Paul. Up to this point I was NOBP (or third party). But now this will probably have me vote for the Republican nominee whoever it is. This is a major issue.Even though I agree with most of what you said, I am still voting for NO ONE BUT PAUL. The reason is, I don't expect the GOP candidate (if not RP) to do anything about it.

[Ronulus]

Yes, So whats the answer then? I'm not having a dig at religion here but, wouldn't it just be a lot easier if the church backed out of issues like that and focused on the religious stuff instead? have their employee's source their own healthcare from whichever provider they wished?

The church has to provide them with health insurance per Obama care. They can't 'opt out'.

[Sola_Fide]

Perhaps its because im a Protestant and of the Church of Scotland? We just don't have those sorts of problems within our church.. We have the Catholic church too, we also have Catholic schools and other Catholic organisations but our healthcare is completely nationalised by the gov't so the churches don't need to get involved and anyone from any background or denomination can use these services and the church does not have to feel resposible for it..

For the record im against abortion as a matter of personal opinion so please don't feel im trying to argue its legality..

Why do you think that nationalized health care is not a problem for churches in the UK? Do you think the Bible supports theft? No? Then why are the Bible-believing people not preaching against government health care? Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people in government should steal money from people and be charitable with it? It's a huge problem.

[GrahamUK]

Why do you think that nationalized health care is not a problem for churches in the UK? Do you think the Bible supports theft? No? Then why are the Bible-believing people not preaching against government health care? Where in the Bible does Jesus say that people in government should steal money from people and be charitable with it? It's a huge problem.

Erm, As far as im aware the church supports the NHS in Britain, i've searched around the net and found this..

http://www.nhs-chaplaincy-spiritualcare.org.uk/churchofengland.html


The Bishop of Carlisle is lead bishop on healthcare issue in the Church of England).

This appointment reflects the importance which the Church of England gives to healthcare as a national priority and the significance of physical, mental and spiritual care for the good of all. Alongside his diocesan duties, Bishop James will work closely with the Mission and Public Affairs Division of the Archbishops’ Council (MPA), which represents the church’s views on healthcare to the government, NHS and other agencies and is also responsible for supporting the Church of England’s healthcare chaplains across the country.

As lead bishop, Bishop James will work to keep healthcare issues high on the agenda in the Church of England’s engagement with public policy. He will also work with the other diocesan bishops and MPA to ensure that the church’s healthcare chaplains receive the support they need from the dioceses and central church structures.

For many patients, staff and relatives the Chaplain/Spiritual Care Giver is the only contact with a representative of their Faith in hospital/healthcare and that contact must be as useful as possible.

HCC also is the interface between the Church of England and the Government's Department of Health. Since the inception of the NHS, whole and part-time Chaplains have been salaried members of staff. Their work in the various hospitals and healthcare institutions throughout the country furthers the mission and ministry of the Church in secular settings. It also carries forward the Dominical command to care for the sick and dying.

HCC not only holds this National overview, but also provides guidance, advice and support to the Church of England Bishops (through their advisers for Hospital Chaplaincy), individual Chief Executives and Trusts in all matters relating to hospital/healthcare chaplaincy. The Council also ensures the professional development of serving chaplains through the work of the Training and Development department.

Healthcare chaplaincy is at the cutting edge of ministry, often touching peoples' lives at times of great crisis and pain. The development in research techniques, the human genome project, etc. throws up new ethical dilemmas for chaplains and other colleagues to grapple with. Of the 425 whole time chaplains in the UK, the 300 whole time and 1500 part time C of E chaplains also minister to the 1.3 million staff employed by the NHS.

July 2008
Manchester Diocesan Synod recently debated and unanimously agreed the following motion in the light of the 60th Anniversary of the NHS

'This Synod

A) Gives thanks to God on the sixtieth anniversary of the founding of the National Health Service; sends greetings to all the medical, care and support staff and contractors; and offers its prayers for the continuing challenge to improve the nation's health and address health inequalities;

B) Reminds all involved in funding and commissioning health services of the founding principles of the NHS, particularly that healthcare should be free at the point of delivery and meet the needs of the whole person;

C) Draws attention to the research which links spiritual and religious care with the improved healing, wholeness and recovery of patients;

D) Commends to the NHS commissioners and managers the ecumenical and multi-faith work of healthcare chaplains in providing religious and spiritual care to patients, families and staff; and calls for the proper funding and resourcing of NHS chaplaincy services;

E) Further commends the creative partnership between the NHS and faith communities, and the distinctive commitment of the Church of England both to patient-centred care and ministry to NHS institutions.'

[Article V]

Yes, So whats the answer then? I'm not having a dig at religion here but, wouldn't it just be a lot easier if the church backed out of issues like that and focused on the religious stuff instead? have their employee's source their own healthcare from whichever provider they wished?Yes, that would be one solution, even if it puts them at a competitive disadvantage vs employers who do offer health insurance.

But then there is the larger problem:
The church has to provide them with health insurance per Obama care. They can't 'opt out'.

[GrahamUK]

The church has to provide them with health insurance per Obama care. They can't 'opt out'.

Ok now i understand why everyone wants to repeal Obama-care... I thought it was similar to the healthcare set up we have in the UK, buts now i see that it's not...

Didn't he think, or see that he would undoubtedly have these kinds of problems down the line?

[Article V]

Ok now i understand why everyone wants to repeal Obama-care... I thought it was similar to the healthcare set up we have in the UK, buts now i see that it's not...

Didn't he think, or see that he would undoubtedly have these kinds of problems down the line?Most of Obamacare doesn't kick in until 2013, so he thought he could avoid much of the controversy till after his re-election. I think they let this little bit slip earlier because in the slow roll-out process he and his staff simply didn't expect this level of Catholic backlash; and they likewise seem genuinely surprised that many evangelicals are joining the Catholics because evangelicals are acknowledging they might be next.

Also, he thought this system would slowly cause businesses to abandon giving insurance opting to take the cheaper fine instead; and that would push the people more and more toward supporting full-fledged single-payer government run health care as he wanted initially, but couldn't get passed even with his Democratic majority in both chambers of Congress.

[FreeTraveler]

Ye, the news this week was intended to boost Santorum and hurt Romney. Good for us. More chance of a brokered convention, and Santorum has no chance in the long run.

[Sola_Fide]

Erm, As far as im aware the church supports the NHS in Britain, i've searched around the net and found this..

http://www.nhs-chaplaincy-spiritualcare.org.uk/churchofengland.html

Yes, I know. That is the problem. Your church supports theft.

[row333au]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GMM4e1P-Sr8

note: government censored, control and rationed medical services, pro-war and Bush regime, limited freedom base on acceptable government dictations, his support for Federal Reserves, pro-bailout with quantitative easing for corporations, etch

[GrahamUK]

Yes, I know. That is the problem. Your church supports theft.

The System we have now in Britain was begun in the 19th century, i really dunno what was going on the States at that time, but over here our poor people lived in terrible conditions, massive over crowding in the large industrialized cities as a direct result of the industrial revolution. People really did die in the streets, we needed housing and health care reforms, it was not uncommon to find families of ten sharing a single room, disease was rampant. The church, Catholic or otherwise supported health care reforms at that time and they supported the acts passed from 1911 thru till the formation of the modern day NHS after the close of WW2.. Whether you agree with government health care or not the fact remains that we in Britain needed it..

The quality of water in these over crowded industrial cities was so poor that children were forced to drink Beer and Gin.. There were Cholera outbreaks every other week almost.. My mother and father grew up in tenement buildings in Glasgow, they are only in their 50's and they still remember the outdoor bathrooms and open rubbish tips in the communal gardens were children played.. The fact is Britain is/was and class run society, made up of the haves and have nots, the upper classes simply didn't care. The truth is we needed gov't measures in order to help improve conditions in general, the oversize welfare state we've since allowed ourselves to become is a seperate issue.

[Pisces]

I think the Paul campaign should put out a statement on this issue. One of my favorite Ron Paul quotes is "liberty brings people together". This issue is an example of how the govt trying to centrally plan everything causes division along with trampling on individual rights. The campaign shouldn't let Santorum steal the limelight on this. Along these lines, I saw that Rand Paul has an article out about this today: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/290464/president-s-war-religious-freedom-sen-rand-paul

[MsDoodahs]

"IMHO, all the anti-Catholic Obama stuff is meant to spur Santorum



Just my humble opinion."

Clairvoyant!

MN is appx 30% Catholic - the media got them all stirred up and they certainly turned out.