Democrats - Are they a lost cause?

[JasonM]

What do you think?

[nano1895]

No, because alot of people on this forums were liberals.

But at least even brainwashed Republicans "believe" in smaller domestic government. The Dem's that believe in big gov't here at home AND being the policemen of the world (Obama) are way over the cliff.

[CaseyJones]

no more than republicans are

[mavtek]

I think those who say they are Democrats and have worked closely in Unions or with that party are probably a lost cause. They are pretty well brainwashed, there are several though who say they have voted Democrat, but don't really follow the party that much, that's riper fruit in my estimation.

[ILUVRP]

i have though for a long time there is really only 2 kinds of goverments in the world .

if you draw a line and on the far right on it you would have" fascist ", on the far left on the line you would have "socialist".

the modern dem's are moving toward the socialist end more than ever , at the same time the repub's are moving toward the fascist end more than ever.

to me the repub party should be like Eisenhower , the dem party would be like Truman . now money talks , thats why i believe Ron Paul may be the last chance for this great country.

[Lisa100]

I think that democrats should like a lot of what Ron Paul offers, such as anti-war policies and individual liberties. And I think a lot of them are disgusted by our budget deficits.

[AhuwaleKaNaneHuna]

They are far easier to convert then neocons.

They are even moreso now, since Obama has not held up to many of the promises he made that had people vote for him.

[jmdrake]

No. Especially not this year with no democratic primary. Lots of Democrats like Ron Paul on civil liberty and war issues over Obama. I've convinced quite a few to vote for Ron Paul in the GOP primary instead of wasting their vote in a democratic primary that doesn't matter.

[BuddyRey]

Democrats are absolutely not a lost cause. And I'm glad Ron Paul never gave up on them, or else I might still be one. :D

[lakefx]

I know of few Democrats who would truly consider themselves statist-socialists (I would actually describe more republicans this way honestly), which would be the only truly 'lost cause' they have seriously taken a look at liberty, and have said "No, that's not for me, and I care not for anyone else's either." Liberals and Conservatives both have something in common with Ron Paul, they both want freedom or self-government of some kind. Unfortunately, their representation, democrat or republican does not defend freedom as their platforms often suggest.

For too long the discussion has been from the Right and the Left, what liberties can be denied with the least resistance, and what can government control to repel that resistance. If one group fears social freedom, and the other group fears economic freedom, the inevitable result is we will have neither. The argument in government about its citizens has not been 'how much liberty can we provide and empower the people', it's 'how much liberty can we revoke, to be more powerful'

^I win arguments for Ron Paul and his allies with both sides, and moderates, and independents with statements like it. use it. and even when it doesn't win: INCEPTION!

[Hyperion]

I would say the most politically oriented leftists are basically a lost cause and incapable of supporting Ron Paul . I was reading a NYT article on the very Pro-Paul community of Pahrump, Nevada and the comments section was just filled with the worst amount of wrath originating from East Coast leftists. Personally, I can't stand being around that particular crowd and I don't see how their world view is in any way compatible with ours. If you think Neocons worship government power, then you've really seen nothing until you've been around the 'I hope there will be a government program to wipe my ass' crowd.

Your garden variety Democrat or Republican can be awaken once they actually research the situation.

[Liberty74]

The vast majority of the Democrats are a lost cause. Generations of brainwashing is hard to undo.

[tbone717]

They are not a lost cause per se if you are looking to add to the people that would support Paul in a primary, but the percentages will be small. So if you are thinking that we can suddenly win the nomination by bringing some Dems over to our side, that is a lost cause simply because the numbers do not work out.

[Boss]

I'm sympathetic to Dems because many of them are against corporatism and special interests. Many Repubs are convinced that special interests in politics is a good thing and that corporatism is a good thing. Repubs have no idea why they believe this, other than they think it is to support capitalism (not realizing this is antithetical to capitalism).

Thus, I've opened the eyes of many Dems by just asking them to follow through with their logic. I borrow Ron Paul's argument that the inflationary actions of the Federal Reserve, bailouts, and the welfare state are the three key culprits in the shrinking middle class and the growing disparity between wealthy and poor. These three items are main reasons why Dems support the government. So show them how government corruption in these areas is the problem, and they start to see that government corruption is a major culprit because it enables corporatism and special interests to control the money supply and the business climate through legislation. When they start to see that its actually their own policies that have led to increased corruption, they start to think a bit differently on their policies.

[Blue]

I was a democrat once.

[acptulsa]

I was talking to a former blue dog Democrat just yesterday. Definitely not a lost cause. Rather, a new convert.


The vast majority of the Democrats are a lost cause. Generations of brainwashing is hard to undo.

How long ago would you have considered yourself a lost cause?

When the light bulb comes on, the darkness goes away...

[Carole]

No more than Republicans are.

But the change in belief will not come until the final crash in the next couple of years or so. Then all will be believers in a lot of things they never expected to believe.

[Blue]

No more than Republicans are.

But the change in belief will not come until the final crash in the next couple of years or so. Then all will be believers in a lot of things they never expected to believe.

It is very sad to say, but a vast majority of the public won't wake up until it is too late.

[Peace&Freedom]

From a Libertarian perspective, that views the standard Republican and Democratic leadership as the twin bedmates of disaster, the Democrats are no more hopeless than the Republicans are. The leadership is a lost cause, but the rank and file is not. Reagan attracted tens of millions of Democratic voters in the '80's despite decades of brainwashing. The Ron Paul Democrat who ran against Lindsay Graham got over 40% of the vote. Based on a message that stresses civil liberties, ending war and military waste, and defending the constitution, the welfare state disagreements with other Democrats can be managed. And there will be plenty of Dems who are receptive to the defacto social conservative message (Christians, blacks) a RP Democrat political activist or candidate could bring to the table.

[Carole]

The vast majority of the Democrats are a lost cause. Generations of brainwashing is hard to undo.

Most Republicans and Democrats are a lost cause. Generations of brainwashing is hard to undo.

However, there are those among the remainder who are open on both sides who can still be swayed. :)

[Carole]

It is very sad to say, but a vast majority of the public won't wake up until it is too late.

I almost added that, but thought I was already negative enough. :D

[affa]

The best way to convert anyone, in my opinion, is use the points you agree on, to force the person you're talking to to see their side in a new light. You need to be able to shut down lines of reasoning on the fly, but -always- by connecting to corruption they already understand and agree with. This conversion will likely not happen during the conversation. It's a seed that may take days, or weeks, or months to grow... if not longer.

But, for example, both sides are quick to discuss government corruption and waste... but only on things they disagree with. So once you lay the groundwork (Pentagon over paying for hammers, toilet seats, etc.) you point out that waste is endemic to all bureaucracy. Point out that big industry and lobbyists infiltrate and corrupt all government agencies and policies, regardless of how good the intentions are. A particularly good example of this is Obama's appointment of Monsanto's Michael Taylor to the FDA, but the examples are endless, really. Use examples close to the Left's heart... another favorite of mine is the corruption of the 'Organic' label... regulation and certification have hurt every small, local farmer [from our many local farmer's markets] I know. They simply can't afford it, while big-farm not only can afford Organic certification, there are loopholes in the regs to allow traditionally non-organic food to get the label.

Another great example is this:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-july-28-2011/dodd-frank-update

The left understands that the Patriot act isn't patriotic. That the "Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform & Consumer Protection Act" didn't reform Wall Street or protect consumers. And that's what people need to realize. You can not expect a corrupt institution to pass uncorrupt laws. The problem isn't Republicans, nor Democrats... it's on both sides of the table.
At some point, you can ask the big question - how is it that we don't trust government to wage war, we don't trust lobbyists and big industry, we don't trust any of the laws they write... yet we trust them, in alliance with big-pharm and the insurance industry, to write health laws? Why do we always expect they'll get 'our' pet projects right, even though it's commonplace to assume they mess every other thing up?

It is my opinion that once someone on the Left realizes regulations are easily and inevitably corrupted by the lobbyists, industry, and corrupt politicians... the seed is planted. It may take days or months or years... but it's the critical first step.

And if they point out 'well, then we'll need to elect good people to office'... just ask 'how's that working out for you?'

EDITED TO ADD:
At which point, you can begin to spread Ron Paul's message -- the best way to defang the thugs in office is to return power to the local communities. This begins by removing Federal jurisdiction on issues where it's unconstitutional [bring up the War on Drugs, perhaps] and returning it to the States. If a politician doesn't have power over something, the lobbyists won't be in their office.

[TheGrinch]

A great strategy I've seen used is to emphasize the fact that every other candidate but Paul has been bought out by the corporate lobbyists, including Obama.

I think bringing up who has and hasn't been bought by corporate interests will go a long way in disputing claims that he's just like the other republicans, only serving corporate interests (I've seen quite a few of you already dispute it with, "Then why don't the powerful interests support him then?"). This is also very helpful in bringing over disenfranchised Democrats who feel duped by believing Obama's "change" rhetoric...

Don't give up guys, as long as you work on winning "hearts and minds", and don't just try to fight with liberals and neocons and put them on the defensive, there are aspects of this campaign that greatly appeal to everyone. Know your audience and win them over with logic on the things you're more likely to come to agreement on, and then they just might be open to learning more about the issues that are tougher for them to swallow.

Don't give up guys. The progress we're making in spite of media blackouts is really amazing...

[TheGrinch]

Haha, you posted this at the same time as I did, with essentially the same point. Find common ground first for them to realize that you stand for some of the same things (there are different aspects of the campaign that can appeal to any different group); You absolutely do not want to put someone on the defensive about their political beliefs, unless you're prepared for a very stubborn fight. People don't like being told their beliefs are wrong, and will put up a fight if they feel their belief structure is being attacked.

That's not to say they will or won't change, but like you said, plant the seed that this viewpoint might be appealing to research and consider.

The best way to convert anyone, in my opinion, is use the points you agree on, to force the person you're talking to to see their side in a new light. You need to be able to shut down lines of reasoning on the fly, but -always- by connecting to corruption they already understand and agree with. This conversion will likely not happen during the conversation. It's a seed that may take days, or weeks, or months to grow... if not longer.

But, for example, both sides are quick to discuss government corruption and waste... but only on things they disagree with. So once you lay the groundwork (Pentagon over paying for hammers, toilet seats, etc.) you point out that waste is endemic to all bureaucracy. Point out that big industry and lobbyists infiltrate and corrupt all government agencies and policies, regardless of how good the intentions are. A particularly good example of this is Obama's appointment of Monsanto's Michael Taylor to the FDA, but the examples are endless, really. Use examples close to the Left's heart... another favorite of mine is the corruption of the 'Organic' label... regulation and certification have hurt every small, local farmer [from our many local farmer's markets] I know. They simply can't afford it, while big-farm not only can afford Organic certification, there are loopholes in the regs to allow traditionally non-organic food to get the label.

Another great example is this:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-july-28-2011/dodd-frank-update

The left understands that the Patriot act isn't patriotic. That the "Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform & Consumer Protection Act" didn't reform Wall Street or protect consumers. And that's what people need to realize. You can not expect a corrupt institution to pass uncorrupt laws. The problem isn't Republicans, nor Democrats... it's on both sides of the table.
At some point, you can ask the big question - how is it that we don't trust government to wage war, we don't trust lobbyists and big industry, we don't trust any of the laws they write... yet we trust them, in alliance with big-pharm and the insurance industry, to write health laws? Why do we always expect they'll get 'our' pet projects right, even though it's commonplace to assume they mess every other thing up?

It is my opinion that once someone on the Left realizes regulations are easily and inevitably corrupted by the lobbyists, industry, and corrupt politicians... the seed is planted. It may take days or months or years... but it's the critical first step.

And if they point out 'well, we need to elect good people to office'... just ask 'how's that working out for you?'

[seekingliberty]

My Mom was a dem for as long as I can remember. She was resistant to Paul at first because of the abortion issue but said she thought she was more libertarian than dem. She liked Johnson more than Paul but then he left the GOP race. She then saw an article saying that Huntsman was a libertarian leaning republican so she preferred him because of what he claimed his foreign policy was. Then he dropped so she seems to be in full support of Ron now. She forwarded me an email last week and it was from the RP meet-up group from her county. :) I think a lot of dems are looking for someone other than Obama. There is a big diff between dems that lean socialist and those that prefer dems because of the abortion issue. Food freedom issues are big as well and Ron is right on in that area as well.