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View Full Version : Yet again, file under don't call the cops. "Autistic Teen Fatally Shot by Police at Home"




tropicangela
02-01-2012, 09:15 PM
Teen fighting with parents, didn't want to go to prison school. TV report just said he had a butter knife. Officers went to residence without tasers so chose to fire their guns instead. The police had been called to residence numerous times in the past to help manage the boy. Officer put on leave paid vacation. Shot twice in the head.


"They murdered my son, shot him twice in the head and decided to kill him," said Danelene Powell-Watts. "They didn't have to shoot him in the head, they could have tazed him. They could have hit him in his arm or his leg. They didn't have to kill a 15-year-old with autism."

Powell-Watts said she was asleep at the time, but the boy’s father, who suffers from pancreatic cancer, witnessed the shooting.

The father was trying to get his son off the computer to go to school when the boy got angry and out of hand, his mother said. In the past, when the son has had problems, police have been called to the house.

Police have had to taser the son in the past, his mother said.

"All we wanted was help," said the boy's uncle, Wayne Watts. "We didn't want no trouble. We are a law-abiding family and we believed in the police and for this to happen is devastating."

Calumet City Police Chief Edward Gilmore said that officers didn't have a choice.

"He is well known to this department as someone who will grab a knife, who likes to fight with his fists," Gilmore said. "Unfortunately today, when he slashed the officers arm, the officer felt his life was in jeopardy he nothing else to do but defend himself."

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/metro/teen-shot-police-fatal-calumet-city-home-reports-20120201

DamianTV
02-01-2012, 09:49 PM
http://lewrockwell.com/decoster/decoster191.html on School (skip the intro)

Since the Legal System is the exact opposite of Justice, they will most likely find the Officers did no wrong doing, of course.

jclay2
02-01-2012, 11:07 PM
I don't really know what to say. I saw this in one of the local media outlets. I have a sister with autism and this is deeply disturbing to me. The only advice I can take away from this is DON'T CALL THE POLICE! Please people, this is outright murder, don't let it happen to your pets and loved ones.

hxxp://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-calumet-city-shooting-20120202,0,6999817.story


Calumet City police had been called to subdue Stephon Watts 10 times in less than two years, using Tasers at least once on the 15-year-old with Asperger's syndrome.

On Wednesday, officers were called again to the teen's home, where two officers found Watts in his basement wielding a kitchen knife. Watts "lashed out" with the knife and struck one of the officers in the forearm, said police Chief Edward Gilmore.

"At that time, cornered and having no way to retreat back up the stairs, the officers fired one shot each, striking the (boy) twice," Gilmore said. "Unfortunately, the officer thought that his life was in jeopardy."

Watts later was pronounced dead at Franciscan St. Margaret Health hospital in Hammond.

Relatives of the autistic teenager, who was diagnosed with Asperger's when he was 9, questioned why police fired shots at Watts, especially because the department had dealt with him before.

"They didn't have to murder him," said the teen's mother, Danelene Powell-Watts. "This is nothing but murder."

Watts' father, Steven, witnessed the shooting and said his son was holding a butter knife when confronted by police.

"They're trained to disarm people," Steven Watts said. "Why did they have to use deadly force on a 15-year-old autistic kid?"

Steven Watts said his son was shot once in the leg, and when he moved, he was shot again in the head.

Gilmore said, "I'm not being told he was shot in the head" but said he needed to wait for the coroner's report. The Lake County, Ind., coroner late Wednesday did not indicate where the teen was shot.

On Wednesday morning, Stephon Watts declared he didn't want to go to school, and his father responded by taking away the teen's computer and putting it in the basement of their home in the 500 block of Forsythe Avenue.

Upset, the teen "tussled" with his father, who called police about 8:30 a.m. Steven Watts said he was following instructions given to the family by social workers and doctors who warned that when agitated, the teen should be handled by authorities. The family had followed that advice and called police at least 10 times since June 2010.

"This is an address that's flagged in our system as having an autistic young man there who is very strong and likes to fight with the police," Gilmore said.

Five officers responded, and two went to the basement, Gilmore said. The lead officer, whose cut arm was treated at the scene, had responded to the home before, Gilmore said.

Watts, who police said was 5-foot-10 and 220 pounds, has wielded knives on other occasions, including one instance where he barricaded himself in a bathroom, authorities said. Police had to call out a negotiator then, Gilmore said.

Most recently, on Dec. 10, Watts' birthday, police were called after the boy punched his mother in the face, Gilmore and Watts' family said. Watts fled his home with a knife, and officers gave chase, eventually subduing him with two strikes from a Taser.

Both officers involved in Wednesday's shooting are on paid administrative leave until the completion of an investigation by Illinois State Police.

All 84 Calumet City police officers last year attended a class about dealing with people with autism disorders, authorities said.

jclay2
02-02-2012, 05:47 AM
Bump....Wow, no comment when a 15 year old with asperger's is shot holding a butter knife?

Restore America Now
02-02-2012, 05:48 AM
A BUTTER KNIFE?! :mad:

Hospitaller
02-02-2012, 06:14 AM
A fucking Butter knife

Its ok citizen, the fine upstading police (man?) was proctecting and serving

Anti Federalist
02-02-2012, 06:30 AM
"All we wanted was help," said the boy's uncle, Wayne Watts. "We didn't want no trouble. We are a law-abiding family and we believed in the police and for this to happen is devastating."

People know RP's message and reject it for more war and spending and tyranny.

People know that cops are dangerous enforcers of the state, yet they continue to call them to "help".

My sympathy is running out for both, who then complain when their loved one is double tapped to death or they find themselves in a government prison.

Krugerrand
02-02-2012, 06:50 AM
People know RP's message and reject it for more war and spending and tyranny.

People know that cops are dangerous enforcers of the state, yet they continue to call them to "help".

My sympathy is running out for both, who then complain when their loved one is double tapped to death or they find themselves in a government prison.

Save them a little bit of sympathy ... they were following the directions given to them:

Upset, the teen "tussled" with his father, who called police about 8:30 a.m. Steven Watts said he was following instructions given to the family by social workers and doctors who warned that when agitated, the teen should be handled by authorities. The family had followed that advice and called police at least 10 times since June 2010.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?357642-Don-t-Call-the-Police!!!!&p=4126675&viewfull=1#post4126675

phill4paul
02-02-2012, 06:57 AM
Gaaaaahhhhhhhh!!!!! I'm gonna have to stop reading RPFs in the morning. Put's me in a foul mood all day.

Anti Federalist
02-02-2012, 07:09 AM
Jesus...

DamianTV
02-02-2012, 07:19 AM
Bump....Wow, no comment when a 15 year old with asperger's is shot holding a butter knife?

I read the story elsewhere, but yeah, very sad, and horrifying the impunity to which police act like they can get away with literally everything.

Butchie
02-02-2012, 07:23 AM
So, is this place turning into the DailyPaul now or what? Whole reason I like this site and not that one is this one seemed to be alot less of the "rage against the machine/conspiracy" crowd, now it's just like the DP, "bad cop" story on the hour, there are bad cops, we all know this, just as there are bad doctors, teachers, soldiers, you name it, picking out 1 wrong doing and then branding over a million people because of it is something Ron would never condone.

Anti Federalist
02-02-2012, 07:31 AM
This is systemic.

This is not a "few bad apples".

This is the result of training at both the federal, state and local level that is training LE that we the people are the enemy, to be neutralized as quickly and harshly as possible.

Voluminous evidence to support this has been posted by me and others over the past four years.

A police force trained in this manner is not the hallmark of a free society.

It is, in fact, the standing army that the Founders warned us of, in place to tyrannize and subjugate the people.


So, is this place turning into the DailyPaul now or what? Whole reason I like this site and not that one is this one seemed to be alot less of the "rage against the machine/conspiracy" crowd, now it's just like the DP, "bad cop" story on the hour, there are bad cops, we all know this, just as there are bad doctors, teachers, soldiers, you name it, picking out 1 wrong doing and then branding over a million people because of it is something Ron would never condone.

phill4paul
02-02-2012, 07:35 AM
So, is this place turning into the DailyPaul now or what? Whole reason I like this site and not that one is this one seemed to be alot less of the "rage against the machine/conspiracy" crowd, now it's just like the DP, "bad cop" story on the hour, there are bad cops, we all know this, just as there are bad doctors, teachers, soldiers, you name it, picking out 1 wrong doing and then branding over a million people because of it is something Ron would never condone.

Gee, one would think that if there is a ""bad cop" story on the hour" that there might actually be a frikken PROBLEM. Or are we not to pay attention to abuses of authority?

Butchie
02-02-2012, 07:52 AM
Gee, one would think that if there is a ""bad cop" story on the hour" that there might actually be a frikken PROBLEM. Or are we not to pay attention to abuses of authority?

No, one who actually does his research would know that alot of times the "bad cop" videos turn out to be heavily edited and when watched in their entirety paint a completely different picture. Remember that video of those "horrible" cops pepper spraying those "peaceful innocent" students who were just sitting on the ground, well, watch the whole video, all I can say is those cops showed a hell of alot more patience and restraint than I would have. For people who are supposedly hip to media manipulation you guys sure seem to fall for it quite a bit.

phill4paul
02-02-2012, 07:56 AM
No, one who actually does his research would know that alot of times the "bad cop" videos turn out to be heavily edited and when watched in their entirety paint a completely different picture. Remember that video of those "horrible" cops pepper spraying those "peaceful innocent" students who were just sitting on the ground, well, watch the whole video, all I can say is those cops showed a hell of alot more patience and restraint than I would have. For people who are supposedly hip to media manipulation you guys sure seem to fall for it quite a bit.

Sure. You'd have rather waded into them dressed in shining battle armour with shield and baton. Nothing like cracking a few civi heads now is their?

specsaregood
02-02-2012, 08:26 AM
So, is this place turning into the DailyPaul now or what? Whole reason I like this site and not that one is this one seemed to be alot less of the "rage against the machine/conspiracy" crowd, now it's just like the DP, "bad cop" story on the hour, there are bad cops, we all know this, just as there are bad doctors, teachers, soldiers, you name it, picking out 1 wrong doing and then branding over a million people because of it is something Ron would never condone.

Its pretty simple really, just don't read this thread or threads like this one. They really make up less than 1% of the threads here, its pretty easy to skip them.
I have plenty of family members that are cops of some sort or retired from it, and these threads don't bother me none.

jkr
02-02-2012, 08:33 AM
no
standing
armies
.


read it again if your brain stuttered

get on the side of the people
or
be
swallowed

fisharmor
02-02-2012, 08:50 AM
No, one who actually does his research would know that alot of times the "bad cop" videos turn out to be heavily edited and when watched in their entirety paint a completely different picture. Remember that video of those "horrible" cops pepper spraying those "peaceful innocent" students who were just sitting on the ground, well, watch the whole video, all I can say is those cops showed a hell of alot more patience and restraint than I would have. For people who are supposedly hip to media manipulation you guys sure seem to fall for it quite a bit.

Actually, I've done enough research to know that
a) Cops have not always existed in this world
b) They are a relatively new phenomenon, showing up only in the early 19th century
c) In those free countries where they were introduced, there was significant resistance to the idea because
d) those arguing against a constabulary knew this sort of thing is the inevitable result of establishing one, and by the way
e) this sort of thing has been going on since the constabularies were first established.

If you think people were never brought to justice before the imposition of the constabulary, I've got some high-profile cases I can point to that prove otherwise.

I know you don't like this (are you a cop yourself?) but the facts are clear.
This is their job: to murder autistic kids, beat up old ladies, and throw people in rape cages for possession of plants.

This isn't a conspiracy. There is simply no other way the available facts add up.

TomtheTinker
02-02-2012, 08:51 AM
and to think..the N.W.A. had it right all along...**** the police!!!

flightlesskiwi
02-02-2012, 08:54 AM
This is systemic.

This is not a "few bad apples".

This is the result of training at both the federal, state and local level that is training LE that we the people are the enemy, to be neutralized as quickly and harshly as possible.

Voluminous evidence to support this has been posted by me and others over the past four years.

A police force trained in this manner is not the hallmark of a free society.

It is, in fact, the standing army that the Founders warned us of, in place to tyrannize and subjugate the people.

again, for emphasis:

A police force trained in this manner is not the hallmark of a free society.

It is, in fact, the standing army that the Founders warned us of, in place to tyrannize and subjugate the people.

Butchie
02-02-2012, 08:59 AM
Sure. You'd have rather waded into them dressed in shining battle armour with shield and baton. Nothing like cracking a few civi heads now is their?

Yep, that's just what I said, I'd say this childish response of yours wins my argument for me.


Actually, I've done enough research to know that
a) Cops have not always existed in this world
b) They are a relatively new phenomenon, showing up only in the early 19th century
c) In those free countries where they were introduced, there was significant resistance to the idea because
d) those arguing against a constabulary knew this sort of thing is the inevitable result of establishing one, and by the way
e) this sort of thing has been going on since the constabularies were first established.

If you think people were never brought to justice before the imposition of the constabulary, I've got some high-profile cases I can point to that prove otherwise.

I know you don't like this (are you a cop yourself?) but the facts are clear.
This is their job: to murder autistic kids, beat up old ladies, and throw people in rape cages for possession of plants.

This isn't a conspiracy. There is simply no other way the available facts add up.

Nope, not a cop, just don't believe in judging people I don't know, and nearly every society has had some sort of "law enforcement", the name may have changed but I don't know of any civilization that didn't have laws and didn't have some method of enforcing them. "Their job is to murder autistic kids and beat up old ladies"? Wow.

xFiFtyOnE
02-02-2012, 09:01 AM
I'm not saying that the cops didn't over react but I could totally understand how this could have got out of hand. One of my best friends has an autistic little girl(5 years old) and I honestly don't know how he deals with her. She kicks, bites, screams and there is no negotiating with her once she goes off. All I can imagine is say this 5 year old girl was the size of this boy, basically the size of a grown man at 5'10 & 220 pounds and there would be no stopping him. I think the parents probably should have looked into other options than calling people trained in lethal force to take care of their son who has mental issues...maybe a hospital or something. Just saying.

phill4paul
02-02-2012, 09:04 AM
Yep, that's just what I said, I'd say this childish response of yours wins my argument for me.

Ahem...


all I can say is those cops showed a hell of alot more patience and restraint than I would have.

Batons would be the next step in the force continuum. No?

pcosmar
02-02-2012, 09:05 AM
So, is this place turning into the DailyPaul now or what? Whole reason I like this site and not that one is this one seemed to be alot less of the "rage against the machine/conspiracy" crowd, now it's just like the DP, "bad cop" story on the hour, there are bad cops, we all know this, just as there are bad doctors, teachers, soldiers, you name it, picking out 1 wrong doing and then branding over a million people because of it is something Ron would never condone.

Cops should simply NOT EXIST. (in a free society)

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

Krugerrand
02-02-2012, 09:11 AM
Yep, that's just what I said, I'd say this childish response of yours wins my argument for me.

Well, I guess if your goal is to convince yourself, then sure - you win. If you goal is to change any other minds ... I haven't seen anything from to suggest being a cop is a morally dignified occupation.

First off, it's based on an intentionally misleading concept of "to protect and serve." Meanwhile, they have absolutely no obligation to protect anybody.

Secondly, their purpose is to protect the 'state' not the people. Thus, as our governments become more corrupt, the police are the strong arm of that corruption. If you are unsure of this, look up 'raw milk raids.'

Third, it is a FACT that people fear police. Watch driving patterns if you do not believe this. Freedom is when the government fears the people. Fear of police is a sign of oppression.

Fourth, interaction with police can only lead to loss of liberty. Our system is such that they exist to turn people over for prosecution. Anything you say will be used against you.

Fifth, they are corrupt. Stand and videotape a policeman for a while and see what the reaction is. For as much as they like to spout the "if you have nothing to hide" nonsense, they HAVE LOTS TO HIDE and they damn well intend to use force to keep it hidden. Even though they are charged with enforcing the law, they NEVER follow it. Have you ever watched how policeman drive? Have you never seen the little logos and means they have to identify themselves to each other as part of the 'club who need not follow the law?' There is an undeniable mindset in police that at least some laws do not apply to them.

Sixth, they serve no useful purpose that cannot be easily filled without them.

Butchie
02-02-2012, 10:00 AM
Ahem...



Batons would be the next step in the force continuum. No?

Possibly, but not because I'm some guy on a power trip who likes to needlessly beat people as you choose to paint it, but because I have right to protect myself if I'm threatened. If a hostile group of people formed a circle around me and were yelling and screaming obsenities and threats at me and said loud and clear they weren't going to let me leave then I would do what I had to do, as any of us would.

If you have watched the ENTIRE video you would see what I'm saying - they would not let the cops leave, they were asked several times to open a hole and let the cops out, they were warned several times if they did not they would be pepper sprayed, the police were extremely patient with those kids, if you threaten people like that, don't cry about it if they respond.

phill4paul
02-02-2012, 10:05 AM
Possibly, but not because I'm some guy on a power trip who likes to needlessly beat people as you choose to paint it, but because I have right to protect myself if I'm threatened. If a hostile group of people formed a circle around me and were yelling and screaming obsenities and threats at me and said loud and clear they weren't going to let me leave then I would do what I had to do, as any of us would.

If you have watched the ENTIRE video you would see what I'm saying - they would not let the cops leave, they were asked several times to open a hole and let the cops out, they were warned several times if they did not they would be pepper sprayed, the police were extremely patient with those kids, if you threaten people like that, don't cry about it if they respond.

LOL. Perhaps we didn't watch the same video? So you're saying that pepper spraying seated protesters allowed them egress?

enjerth
02-02-2012, 10:17 AM
So, is this place turning into the DailyPaul now or what? Whole reason I like this site and not that one is this one seemed to be alot less of the "rage against the machine/conspiracy" crowd, now it's just like the DP, "bad cop" story on the hour, there are bad cops, we all know this, just as there are bad doctors, teachers, soldiers, you name it, picking out 1 wrong doing and then branding over a million people because of it is something Ron would never condone.

People need to be faced with the bitter reality of where we are at. The Police State is at hand.

Repent! The Kingdom of the Police State is at hand!

heavenlyboy34
02-02-2012, 10:26 AM
Yep, that's just what I said, I'd say this childish response of yours wins my argument for me.



Nope, not a cop, just don't believe in judging people I don't know, and nearly every society has had some sort of "law enforcement", the name may have changed but I don't know of any civilization that didn't have laws and didn't have some method of enforcing them. "Their job is to murder autistic kids and beat up old ladies"? Wow.
Butchie, the cops' job is not to protect and serve. It is "law enforcement" (and this term is used very loosely). Numerous court cases at high levels have ruled that cops have no obligation to help anyone. They are not accountable to the very laws they supposedly uphold in any meaningful way. Anti-Federalist can point you to voluminous objective, factual literature on this subject.

You're right that most societies have had some sort of law enforcement. However, most of those same societies became police states in which the people feared the enforcers. During the relatively free era of this country, there were no police.

Butchie
02-02-2012, 10:41 AM
Butchie, the cops' job is not to protect and serve. It is "law enforcement" (and this term is used very loosely). Numerous court cases at high levels have ruled that cops have no obligation to help anyone. They are not accountable to the very laws they supposedly uphold in any meaningful way. Anti-Federalist can point you to voluminous objective, factual literature on this subject.

You're right that most societies have had some sort of law enforcement. However, most of those same societies became police states in which the people feared the enforcers. During the relatively free era of this country, there were no police.

So what then, is your fullproof solution to it all? I'm dying to know.

For the record, I was falsely accussed of rape once, so I know all about how messed up the system can be, BELIEVE ME! But I don't blame the beat cop who arrested me, I blame the prosecutor who put a warrant out for me even tho I hadn't even been interviewed, the rape kit had not even come back, and the few witness contradicted her story. After months of grief and few thousand dollars of lawyer fees, all tests came back negative, the girl had changed her story so many times your head would spin (whereas mine never changed once) and I was cleared.

That prosecutor ran for DA, I went after her with a vengeance, and the funny thing is those elections are so obscure very few people vote in them and all it took was me rallying about 25-30 people against her (the cop who arrested me and his partner were two of them) and she lost, and I walked right up to her and told her who I was and why I did what I did, she didn't remember me ofcourse, but I guarantee she went and looked me up and she'll think twice next time before she so casually takes away somone's freedom so easily.

If you guys really want to change things, do what I did, I am telling you, it is easier than you think to get a judge or DA out of their position, those elections have such a small turnout a tiny group can do alot.

fisharmor
02-02-2012, 11:05 AM
So what then, is your fullproof solution to it all? I'm dying to know.

For the record, I was falsely accussed of rape once, so I know all about how messed up the system can be, BELIEVE ME! But I don't blame the beat cop who arrested me, I blame the prosecutor who put a warrant out for me even tho I hadn't even been interviewed, the rape kit had not even come back, and the few witness contradicted her story. After months of grief and few thousand dollars of lawyer fees, all tests came back negative, the girl had changed her story so many times your head would spin (whereas mine never changed once) and I was cleared.

That prosecutor ran for DA, I went after her with a vengeance, and the funny thing is those elections are so obscure very few people vote in them and all it took was me rallying about 25-30 people against her (the cop who arrested me and his partner were two of them) and she lost, and I walked right up to her and told her who I was and why I did what I did, she didn't remember me ofcourse, but I guarantee she went and looked me up and she'll think twice next time before she so casually takes away somone's freedom so easily.

If you guys really want to change things, do what I did, I am telling you, it is easier than you think to get a judge or DA out of their position, those elections have such a small turnout a tiny group can do alot.

All you need to do to understand our position is this.
You need to entertain the possibility that the entire system is broken.
You need to let your guard down long enough to truly consider whether everything you were told growing up is, in fact, a lie.

Once you entertain the possibility that the system we live under was never intended to have a professional constabulary, it becomes painfully clear that the only possible effect said professional constabulary can have on society is to further the loss of liberty and to directly harm individuals under illegitimate pretexts.

You also need to separate the job of "law enforcement" from policing. They are not the same - and cops don't enforce the law. That police are not in the job of law enforcement is axiomatic. Everyone reading this has been let off with a warning in the past. Thus it follows that they are not law enforcement.

You use your case as an example of how easy it is to change the system.
I submit that the system didn't change one iota.
You prevented a particularly bad actor from gaining a position where she could have used her power to evil ends.
The position still exists. It still attracts bad actors.
They still get into that position and still use that power to evil ends.
Nothing has changed at all.

But that's not what we're talking about, either. We're talking about the enforcement caste. If the cops who showed up and arrested you had clubbed you in the skull until you had to eat through a straw the rest of your life (if you were still alive) that would be more analogous to the things we point to as evidence that cops are rotten.
These things happen every single day.
The men who do it are almost never taken to task.
The men who stand by them close ranks and defend them.

There are bad cops, so there are no good cops.

Icymudpuppy
02-02-2012, 11:06 AM
Bump....Wow, no comment when a 15 year old with asperger's is shot holding a butter knife?


A BUTTER KNIFE?! :mad:


A fucking Butter knife

Its ok citizen, the fine upstading police (man?) was proctecting and serving


Calumet City police had been called to subdue Stephon Watts 10 times in less than two years, using Tasers at least once on the 15-year-old with Asperger's syndrome.

Playing devils advocate here.

First of all... WTF have the police had to come out there 10 times in the past?!?! That's insane. From a taxpayers perspective, what a waste of money. From a parenting perspective these parents obviously can't discipline their own child and probably ought not to be parents regardless of "special needs". From an RPF's perspective well there you go... 10% of all cop calls result in killing the wrong person. Don't call the cops.

Now regarding the butter knife comments...
Okay folks. it nowhere says "Butter knife". It says kitchen knife. That could be a butcher knife, chef knife, steak knife, sushi knife, bread knife, cheese knife, butter knife, and many others. Of those, only the butter knife is dull. The rest are usually quite sharp. While I don't condone the police action here, I will tell you now that the parents literally ASKED for it. They routinely called the police everytime they had an altercation with their child, and they did it when their child was brandishing a weapon. In a rare case of restraint, the officers actually waited to be attacked first when the perpetrator slashed one officer's forearm. What did they think was going to happen?

seraphson
02-02-2012, 11:26 AM
I suppose it was inevitable seeing as these "parents" used the local police as Backup Daddy. (You know, the once you shit pants over when Mom says "Wait till' your Father gets home!") But why would you do a double headshot? You can't talk the kid down and give it time?

Krugerrand
02-02-2012, 11:45 AM
Playing devils advocate here.

Now regarding the butter knife comments...
Okay folks. it nowhere says "Butter knife". It says kitchen knife. That could be a butcher knife, chef knife, steak knife, sushi knife, bread knife, cheese knife, butter knife, and many others. Of those, only the butter knife is dull.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-calumet-city-shooting-20120202,0,6999817.story

Watts' father, Steven, witnessed the shooting and said his son was holding a butter knife when confronted by police.

blabam
02-02-2012, 11:47 AM
Parents who need cops to handle their children = EPIC FAIL.

Krugerrand
02-02-2012, 11:55 AM
Parents who need cops to handle their children = EPIC FAIL.

I'd cut them some slack. The learning experience should also be, don't blindly follow your doctor's advice:

Upset, the teen "tussled" with his father, who called police about 8:30 a.m. Steven Watts said he was following instructions given to the family by social workers and doctors who warned that when agitated, the teen should be handled by authorities. The family had followed that advice and called police at least 10 times since June 2010.

heavenlyboy34
02-02-2012, 12:07 PM
All you need to do to understand our position is this.
You need to entertain the possibility that the entire system is broken.
You need to let your guard down long enough to truly consider whether everything you were told growing up is, in fact, a lie.

Once you entertain the possibility that the system we live under was never intended to have a professional constabulary, it becomes painfully clear that the only possible effect said professional constabulary can have on society is to further the loss of liberty and to directly harm individuals under illegitimate pretexts.

You also need to separate the job of "law enforcement" from policing. They are not the same - and cops don't enforce the law. That police are not in the job of law enforcement is axiomatic. Everyone reading this has been let off with a warning in the past. Thus it follows that they are not law enforcement.

You use your case as an example of how easy it is to change the system.
I submit that the system didn't change one iota.
You prevented a particularly bad actor from gaining a position where she could have used her power to evil ends.
The position still exists. It still attracts bad actors.
They still get into that position and still use that power to evil ends.
Nothing has changed at all.

But that's not what we're talking about, either. We're talking about the enforcement caste. If the cops who showed up and arrested you had clubbed you in the skull until you had to eat through a straw the rest of your life (if you were still alive) that would be more analogous to the things we point to as evidence that cops are rotten.
These things happen every single day.
The men who do it are almost never taken to task.
The men who stand by them close ranks and defend them.

There are bad cops, so there are no good cops.
Beat me to it, thanks :) -and well said. It's important to move past this fascistic, antiquated model of "law enforcement" and find a model that provides actual, objectively measurable security.

Butchie
02-02-2012, 12:29 PM
Beat me to it, thanks :) -and well said. It's important to move past this fascistic, antiquated model of "law enforcement" and find a model that provides actual, objectively measurable security.

Such as? You guys are full of criticism but no solutions. I am not "brainwashed" about anything regarding the police, unlike most of you however I don't have a heart attack everytime I see one and, GASP, SIGH, I've actually talked to them, am friends with them, yes, even the guy who arrested me, crazy thing you'll find is they are people too, and the previous post you are agreeing with here is false, I did make a change in my own little part of the world, maybe if other's did the same we'd see a change on a broader scale.

I simply don't agree with you guys, you are correct on that, I feel there is a need for a police force, and although I've heard Ron criticize some police actions, as he should, I've yet to hear him mention anything about abolishing the police in America.

Cutlerzzz
02-02-2012, 12:30 PM
I blame the video games and the rap music.

QuickZ06
02-02-2012, 12:48 PM
I blame the video games and the rap music.

Here, here. LOL.

crh88
02-02-2012, 12:56 PM
Such as? You guys are full of criticism but no solutions. I am not "brainwashed" about anything regarding the police, unlike most of you however I don't have a heart attack everytime I see one and, GASP, SIGH, I've actually talked to them, am friends with them, yes, even the guy who arrested me, crazy thing you'll find is they are people too, and the previous post you are agreeing with here is false, I did make a change in my own little part of the world, maybe if other's did the same we'd see a change on a broader scale.

I simply don't agree with you guys, you are correct on that, I feel there is a need for a police force, and although I've heard Ron criticize some police actions, as he should, I've yet to hear him mention anything about abolishing the police in America.

There are many proposed solutions to the problem. The most simple and obvious is removing the immunity police have when they commit a crime. Make them accountable for their actions. Most importantly though, there should not be a monopoly on force. That's all the state is, and the police are the method. I'm not going to write you an essay about it, and I doubt most of the people here are either. Try reading a book about a society with limited or no government.

heavenlyboy34
02-02-2012, 01:10 PM
Such as? You guys are full of criticism but no solutions. I am not "brainwashed" about anything regarding the police, unlike most of you however I don't have a heart attack everytime I see one and, GASP, SIGH, I've actually talked to them, am friends with them, yes, even the guy who arrested me, crazy thing you'll find is they are people too, and the previous post you are agreeing with here is false, I did make a change in my own little part of the world, maybe if other's did the same we'd see a change on a broader scale.

I simply don't agree with you guys, you are correct on that, I feel there is a need for a police force, and although I've heard Ron criticize some police actions, as he should, I've yet to hear him mention anything about abolishing the police in America.

A brief history of police in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#History):
HistoryIn 1626, the New York City Sheriff's Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Sheriff's_Office) was founded. In 1635, the Town of Boston started its first "Night Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Watch)". The first local modern police department established in the United States was the Boston Police Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Police_Department) in 1838, followed by the New York City Police Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department) in 1845. Early on, police were not respected by the community, as corruption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_corruption) was rampant. In the late 19th and early 20th century, there were few specialized units in police departments.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#cite_note-reiss-1992-1)
The advent of the police car, two-way radio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-way_radio), and telephone in the early 20th century transformed policing into a reactive strategy that focused on responding to calls for service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calls_for_service).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#cite_note-reiss-1992-1) In the 1920s, led by Berkeley, California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley,_California) police chief, August Vollmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Vollmer), police began to professionalize, adopt new technologies, and place emphasis on training.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#cite_note-2) With this transformation, police command and control became more centralized.
O.W. Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Winfield_Wilson), a student of Vollmer, helped reduce corruption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_corruption) and introduce professionalism in Wichita, Kansas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichita,_Kansas), and later in the Chicago Police Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Police_Department).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#cite_note-cdlib-3) Strategies employed by O.W. Wilson included rotating officers from community to community to reduce their vulnerability to corruption, establishing of a non-partisan police board to help govern the police force, a strict merit system for promotions within the department, and an aggressive, recruiting drive with higher police salaries to attract professionally qualified officers.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#cite_note-nytimes-1960-4) Despite such reforms, police agencies were led by highly autocratic leaders, and there remained a lack of respect between police and minority communities. During the professionalism era of policing, law enforcement agencies concentrated on dealing with felonies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony) and other serious crime.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#cite_note-5)
Following urban unrest in the 1960s, police placed more emphasis on community relations, and enacted reforms such as increased diversity in hiring. The Kansas City Preventive Patrol study (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_preventive_patrol_experiment) in the 1970s found the reactive approach to policing to be ineffective.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#cite_note-6) In the 1990s, many law enforcement agencies began to adopt community policing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_policing) strategies, and others adopted problem-oriented policing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem-oriented_policing). In the 1990s, CompStat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompStat) was developed by the New York Police Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Police_Department) as an information-based system for tracking and mapping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_mapping) crime patterns and trends, and holding police accountable for dealing with crime problems. CompStat, and other forms of information-led policing, have since been replicated in police departments across the United States and around the world.
In 1905, the Pennsylvania State Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_Police) became the first state police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_police) agency established, as recommended by Theodore Roosevelt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt)'s Anthracite Strike Commission and Governor Samuel Pennypacker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Pennypacker).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States#cite_note-7) See also Coal Strike of 1902 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_Strike_of_1902). plus who started the police force was Sir Robert Peel


California municipalities were among the first to hire women and minorities as officers. The first female police officer was Alice Stebbins Wells, who was hired by the Los Angeles Police Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Police_Department) in 1910. The LAPD also hired its first two African American police officers, Robert William Stewart and Roy Green, in 1886. The first female deputy sheriff, Margaret Q. Adams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Q._Adams), was hired by the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_County_Sheriff's_Department) in 1912.
-------
(pay special attention to the bolded above)
Police have been an epic FAIL from the beginning, as you see. Just about anything would be better than government run police. The first and most important line of defense is a well-armed and trained population. From there, solutions will vary from place to place.

Pericles
02-02-2012, 01:17 PM
Principles of policing - Sir Robert Peel

The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

jclay2
02-02-2012, 04:10 PM
I told this story to my coworkers. Their response? "Good for them. Shoot first, ask questions later". I was so taken aback, I did not know how to respond. Pure shock.

jclay2
02-02-2012, 04:11 PM
Playing devils advocate here.

First of all... WTF have the police had to come out there 10 times in the past?!?! That's insane. From a taxpayers perspective, what a waste of money. From a parenting perspective these parents obviously can't discipline their own child and probably ought not to be parents regardless of "special needs". From an RPF's perspective well there you go... 10% of all cop calls result in killing the wrong person. Don't call the cops.

Now regarding the butter knife comments...
Okay folks. it nowhere says "Butter knife". It says kitchen knife. That could be a butcher knife, chef knife, steak knife, sushi knife, bread knife, cheese knife, butter knife, and many others. Of those, only the butter knife is dull. The rest are usually quite sharp. While I don't condone the police action here, I will tell you now that the parents literally ASKED for it. They routinely called the police everytime they had an altercation with their child, and they did it when their child was brandishing a weapon. In a rare case of restraint, the officers actually waited to be attacked first when the perpetrator slashed one officer's forearm. What did they think was going to happen?

Unless the father is lying:
Watts' father, Steven, witnessed the shooting and said his son was holding a butter knife when confronted by police.

QuickZ06
02-02-2012, 04:22 PM
I told this story to my coworkers. Their response? "Good for them. Shoot first, ask questions later". I was so taken aback, I did not know how to respond. Pure shock.

Well then tomorrow at lunch when one of them picks up a plastic knife, shoot him in the head and when his buddies look at you in shook just say hey, shoot first ask questions later right.?!?

Mitt Romneys sideburns
02-02-2012, 04:28 PM
You guys saying the officers were not in danger, you guys are just clueless. One time I poked my finger with a butter knife. It almost broke the skin! So you should really research how dangerous a butter knife is before you talk and stuff. Some day you might be at home trying to cut through some frozen butter and accidently jam the thing into your hand, and maybe then you will feel different when you are not so lucky!

QuickZ06
02-02-2012, 04:30 PM
You guys saying the officers were not in danger, you guys are just clueless. One time I poked my finger with a butter knife. It almost broke the skin! So you should really research how dangerous a butter knife is before you talk and stuff. Some day you might be at home trying to cut through some frozen butter and accidently jam the thing into your hand, and maybe then you will feel different when you are not so lucky!

Quoted for truth! :toady:

noneedtoaggress
02-02-2012, 04:40 PM
Such as? You guys are full of criticism but no solutions. I am not "brainwashed" about anything regarding the police, unlike most of you however I don't have a heart attack everytime I see one and, GASP, SIGH, I've actually talked to them, am friends with them, yes, even the guy who arrested me, crazy thing you'll find is they are people too, and the previous post you are agreeing with here is false, I did make a change in my own little part of the world, maybe if other's did the same we'd see a change on a broader scale.

I simply don't agree with you guys, you are correct on that, I feel there is a need for a police force, and although I've heard Ron criticize some police actions, as he should, I've yet to hear him mention anything about abolishing the police in America.

http://mises.org/daily/2088

It's not that the police "aren't people", or that they're all just rotten individuals. The problem is with the way law enforcement operates as an institution. Why do you "feel there is a need for a police force"? Why can't their services be handled by a free market? The police have no obligation to protect individuals, their obligation is to protect an abstract concept of "society", which effectively translates to threatening people with violence over the edicts of the state and necessarily involves invading rather than protecting individual rights. They are the government's army of mercenaries in the struggle to appropriate wealth from and to subjugate it's citizens to power and authority in the name of keeping them safe from themselves.

Those who would give up liberty for safety and all that... well we got neither.

tropicangela
02-02-2012, 04:41 PM
19 Crazy Things That School Children Are Being Arrested For In America
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/19-crazy-things-that-school-children-are-being-arrested-for-in-america

Just like the guy who was bound and pepper sprayed to death at the Sheriff Dept, this incident was in the same county:
"#17 A few months ago, police were called out when a little girl kissed a little boy during a physical education class at an elementary school down in Florida."

libertygrl
02-02-2012, 04:45 PM
I don't really know what to say. I saw this in one of the local media outlets. I have a sister with autism and this is deeply disturbing to me. The only advice I can take away from this is DON'T CALL THE POLICE! Please people, this is outright murder, don't let it happen to your pets and loved ones.

hxxp://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-calumet-city-shooting-20120202,0,6999817.story

I have a nephew with PDD. This is an outrage. Very sad...

libertygrl
02-02-2012, 04:51 PM
I told this story to my coworkers. Their response? "Good for them. Shoot first, ask questions later". I was so taken aback, I did not know how to respond. Pure shock.

Not surprised. You think it was coincidence when the tv series 24 came out right after 9-11 and made torture acceptable? I used to watch that show regularly and it was good but it was very violent. There is no doubt in my mind that it was meant to desensitize us to accept torture/violence. Violent video games play into this as well.

amonasro
02-02-2012, 04:52 PM
The comment section of that article dropped my IQ a couple points. Ugh.

noneedtoaggress
02-02-2012, 04:58 PM
Not surprised. You think it was coincidence when the tv series 24 came out right after 9-11 and made torture acceptable? I used to watch that show regularly and it was good but it was very violent. There is no doubt in my mind that it was meant to desensitize us to accept torture/violence. Violent video games play into this as well.

I wonder if it's more along the lines of a symptom of what happens when people are so emotionally connected to their government that they have to make justifications for actions they would otherwise consider immoral.

Butchie
02-02-2012, 05:11 PM
http://mises.org/daily/2088

It's not that the police "aren't people", or that they're all just rotten individuals. The problem is with the way law enforcement operates as an institution. Why do you "feel there is a need for a police force"? Why can't their services be handled by a free market? The police have no obligation to protect individuals, their obligation is to protect an abstract concept of "society", which effectively translates to threatening people with violence over the edicts of the state and necessarily involves invading rather than protecting individual rights. They are the government's army of mercenaries in the struggle to appropriate wealth from and to subjugate it's citizens to power and authority in the name of keeping them safe from themselves.

Those who would give up liberty for safety and all that... well we got neither.

The govt's Army of mercanaries? What cops do you know? This is why I completely disagree with you guys, I know many cops personally and what you describe is so opposite of the way they are. You say a private police force? OK, who will determine what rules they have to follow? Won't they then become mercenaries of whoever writes their check?

Just like Adam Kokesh and his gang who hate cops, but then when a private security guard (yaknow, the kind you want to take over) "assaulted" Adam, guess what his buddy immediately did: called 911 - typical. Maybe listen to some police dispatchers when people call, it's "Hurry, we need the police now!" You honestly think cops enjoy going to the same trailer park, for the same smelly couple that gets drunk every weekend and starts beating on each other? Despite what you think the cops are usually there because someone called them there, not because they're out looking for helpless citizens to beat on.

PierzStyx
02-02-2012, 05:35 PM
People know RP's message and reject it for more war and spending and tyranny.

People know that cops are dangerous enforcers of the state, yet they continue to call them to "help".

My sympathy is running out for both, who then complain when their loved one is double tapped to death or they find themselves in a government prison.

People are conditioned so well by the government that they embrace this amount of doublethink regularly and joyfully.

PierzStyx
02-02-2012, 05:36 PM
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. Murder a handicapped person and get a paid vacation. Its sickening. Someone should crucify that police chief.

noneedtoaggress
02-02-2012, 06:00 PM
The govt's Army of mercanaries? What cops do you know?

That's completely irrelevant, but if you want to play that game, my girl's brother is ex-leo. Now is it supposed to be my turn to argue about how many more police officers she may know than you do? I can put her on if you really want to see who has the biggest nightstick, but I don't really see how is this even relevant to anything I said?


This is why I completely disagree with you guys, I know many cops personally and what you describe is so opposite of the way they are.

How did I say "they are"? How are they the opposite?


You say a private police force? OK, who will determine what rules they have to follow? Won't they then become mercenaries of whoever writes their check?

You could start answering some of the questions you have by checking out the link I'd provided:

http://mises.org/daily/2088


Just like Adam Kokesh and his gang who hate cops, but then when a private security guard (yaknow, the kind you want to take over) "assaulted" Adam, guess what his buddy immediately did: called 911 - typical.

They didn't call the police for help there, my friend.


Maybe listen to some police dispatchers when people call, it's "Hurry, we need the police now!" You honestly think cops enjoy going to the same trailer park, for the same smelly couple that gets drunk every weekend and starts beating on each other? Despite what you think the cops are usually there because someone called them there, not because they're out looking for helpless citizens to beat on.

I never said they were "out looking for helpless citizens to beat on", did I?


It's not that the police "aren't people", or that they're all just rotten individuals.

Like I said, they aren't all rotten individuals. It's the institution. You've turned this into such a personal issue that you won't even read what I'm saying, you're just putting words in my mouth about how I somehow said police are all evil human beings who want to beat up old ladies or something. This isn't about dishonoring your buddies.

This ex-leo definitely had the right mindset: http://freekeene.com/2011/04/21/on-violence/

phill4paul
02-02-2012, 06:11 PM
The govt's Army of mercanaries? What cops do you know? This is why I completely disagree with you guys, I know many cops personally and what you describe is so opposite of the way they are. You say a private police force? OK, who will determine what rules they have to follow? Won't they then become mercenaries of whoever writes their check?

Just like Adam Kokesh and his gang who hate cops, but then when a private security guard (yaknow, the kind you want to take over) "assaulted" Adam, guess what his buddy immediately did: called 911 - typical. Maybe listen to some police dispatchers when people call, it's "Hurry, we need the police now!" You honestly think cops enjoy going to the same trailer park, for the same smelly couple that gets drunk every weekend and starts beating on each other? Despite what you think the cops are usually there because someone called them there, not because they're out looking for helpless citizens to beat on.

You do know that the Dept. of Homeland Security is majorly funding and training local L.E. these days? This goes back to a discussion we had regarding 'force continuum.' Remember that? Do you even know what 'force continuum' is? And that it has now changed to 'immediate compliance?'
Good lord man. You've got your head in the sand. They are flying drones, no knock raiding wrong apartments, shooting peoples dogs in the owners houses and yards, raping women, killing others over who throws darts better, killing more without evidence of justification, and pepper spraying non-violent protestors. All while covering each others asses.
Under any circumstance I'd call that a gang. Or a mafia.
And if you think they do not target 'helpless' citizens you're sadly mistaken. Because every citizen that they target that is not helpless usually ends up giving more than they can bear to get.

JK/SEA
02-02-2012, 06:22 PM
Autistic kid with a knife and SWAT wasn't called?...wtf is the matter with police these days?

i will say that i for one, am grateful for cops. Why just last summer i was pulled over doing 6 over in a 25 and he let me go. I immediately went to the grave of a Newfoundland dog that got blown away by cops in a nearby city last year and put some roses on her grave with the money i saved.

kuckfeynes
02-02-2012, 06:42 PM
If your definition of "good cop" is one that isn't blatantly criminally abusive of his authority, then yes there are more good cops than bad cops.

BUT if your definition of "good cop" is one that fits the above criteria AND doesn't passively stand silent while being aware of others engaging in such behavior, then surely that ratio gets turned on its head.

Most cops are not looking to actively abuse their authority, but at the same time most cops do not want to be the guy ostracizing himself by rocking the boat either. Which makes it very easy for the actual criminal cops to get away with what they do with minimal accountability.

It is the classic culture of protectionism and cronyism that plagues every bureaucratic institution. Acting like police are somehow magically above this basic human instinct is naive at best.

If these were not the people we have been bred from birth to accept as our "protectors" -- If they were, say, well-known football coaches that did nothing wrong besides staying silent when evidence of child abuse was brought to their attention -- The reaction would be QUITE different.

TheTexan
02-02-2012, 07:26 PM
I agree that the institution itself is flawed and unnecessary in a free society. This would still happen in a 'free society' though. The parents would have requested private help instead of public help, but the same thing could have happened.

It would be a hell of a lot less likely in a free society though. Because in a free society the parents could sue these individuals who killed their son, and the privatized version of 'police' would be far more careful about who they shoot. Unlike our police which are basically immune from prosecution.

Anti Federalist
02-03-2012, 07:24 AM
Sell it to the family of Nick Christie, who called cops for "help" as he was acting "depressed".

They helped him alright.

By gagging, binding, and torturing him until he died of chemical burns.

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/Christie.jpg

You have said you were a victim of a false rape charge, yet hold no animosity toward the cop that arrested you, just the prosecutor.

Stockholm Syndrome?

Don't you realize they are all part of the same system, and that hundreds of thousands of people were not as lucky as you, railroaded into jail by corrupt trimuverate of cops, prosecutors and judges?



No, one who actually does his research would know that alot of times the "bad cop" videos turn out to be heavily edited and when watched in their entirety paint a completely different picture. Remember that video of those "horrible" cops pepper spraying those "peaceful innocent" students who were just sitting on the ground, well, watch the whole video, all I can say is those cops showed a hell of alot more patience and restraint than I would have. For people who are supposedly hip to media manipulation you guys sure seem to fall for it quite a bit.

flightlesskiwi
02-03-2012, 07:29 AM
You have said you were a victim of a false rape charge, yet hold no animosity toward the cop that arrested you, just the prosecutor.

Stockholm Syndrome?

Don't you realize they are all part of the same system, and that hundreds of thousands of people were not as lucky as you, railroaded into jail by corrupt trimuverate of cops, prosecutors and judges?

But, AF, those cops were just following orders!

Papers, please...

aGameOfThrones
02-03-2012, 07:41 AM
But, AF, those cops were just following orders!

Papers, please...

Haha I was about to post that


http://crimethinc.com/texts/images/police1.gif

Butchie
02-03-2012, 10:45 AM
That's completely irrelevant, but if you want to play that game, my girl's brother is ex-leo. Now is it supposed to be my turn to argue about how many more police officers she may know than you do? I can put her on if you really want to see who has the biggest nightstick, but I don't really see how is this even relevant to anything I said?



How did I say "they are"? How are they the opposite?



You could start answering some of the questions you have by checking out the link I'd provided:

http://mises.org/daily/2088



They didn't call the police for help there, my friend.



I never said they were "out looking for helpless citizens to beat on", did I?



Like I said, they aren't all rotten individuals. It's the institution. You've turned this into such a personal issue that you won't even read what I'm saying, you're just putting words in my mouth about how I somehow said police are all evil human beings who want to beat up old ladies or something. This isn't about dishonoring your buddies.

This ex-leo definitely had the right mindset: http://freekeene.com/2011/04/21/on-violence/

I did read it, I don't see how you feel that system would be immune to corruption or abuse either? ANY system you ever create can be abused which is why "the price of freedom is ETERNAL VIGILANCE", people get angry at politicians, yet re-elect them, people get angry at prosecutors and judges yet don't bother get involved in their elections either.

I was not trying to prove who has the "bigger nightstick" BTW, I was just saying all of these broad accussations, not that all of them came from you personally, that people are making about police were simply false.

Butchie
02-03-2012, 10:52 AM
Haha I was about to post that


http://crimethinc.com/texts/images/police1.gif

Ha ha, you guys are SOOOOO clever, so now you want a cop to be judge and jury when he sees someone has a warrant? Sounds kinda hypocritical, Stockholm Syndrome? Yeah, I developed SS in that whopping 20min car ride to the station, what grade are you in? I also love how you guys keep thinking you're going to show me these random police abuses and that's somehow evidence of the entire police force of over 1million being corrupt, let me tell you, I could google any group of people, say - black criminals, white criminals, female criminals, christian criminals, etc, and I guarantee you I will find no shortage of videos portraying those groups doing horrible things, so, by your logic that entire group is bad and should be feared right?

How about you google "good cops", or "cop saves life", I will bet you will find far more videos of cops saving people than killing people, but no one likes to hear the good, only the bad.

TheTexan
02-03-2012, 01:19 PM
How about you google "good cops", or "cop saves life", I will bet you will find far more videos of cops saving people than killing people, but no one likes to hear the good, only the bad.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg195/scaled.php?server=195&filename=googlecop.png&res=medium

Butchie
02-03-2012, 01:57 PM
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg195/scaled.php?server=195&filename=googlecop.png&res=medium

I'd say that's all a word game, I just googled "good cop" got:

About 13,100,000 results (0.60 seconds)

Googled bad cop got:

About 8,040,000 results (0.42 seconds)

So, I will concede, poor choice of words on my part, but as I also stated people love to hear the bad more than the good, surely you would know this, how often does the news report someone doing something good vs. someone doing something bad, I shoveled 5 driveways yesterday, bet you didn't hear that on the news, if had murdered those 5 people, bet you'll hear about that, so again, poor choice of words from me.

Anyhow, Im tired of even talking about this, you guys all believe what you will, you haven't changed my mind and I know I won't change yours, time to get back to the election, which was kinda my whole point in the first place.

enjerth
02-03-2012, 01:58 PM
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg195/scaled.php?server=195&filename=googlecop.png&res=medium

I know. It's because the people they kill are all almost always guilty, or at least in the official report.

Gotta put your best game-face on and put your best foot forward, even if it is just a facade.

noneedtoaggress
02-03-2012, 03:12 PM
I did read it, I don't see how you feel that system would be immune to corruption or abuse either?

I never said anything would be "immune" to corruption. Let's put this in perspective.

A socialized security organization has a legal monopoly, is funded through threats of violence with the objective of enforcing the decrees of a bureaucratic "governing body". For fulfilling this role, agents get special privileges and bad behavior tends to get brushed under the rug or they get heavily reduced punishments compared to what private citizens would face.

A free-market private security organization has to compete with other security organizations for customers. They are funded voluntarily. Their objectives are to secue the person/property of their customers. If they do something wrong, their organization cannot just appropriate funds from everyone in a given area that they claim are their "customers" and promise "reform". A security officer is a private citizen, and doesn't get special privileges.

Which of these institutions do you believe would be more prone to corruption and abuse?



ANY system you ever create can be abused which is why "the price of freedom is ETERNAL VIGILANCE", people get angry at politicians, yet re-elect them, people get angry at prosecutors and judges yet don't bother get involved in their elections either.

Yeah, and the point is to decentralize power so as to create an environment in which it's less possible to become abused.


I was not trying to prove who has the "bigger nightstick" BTW, I was just saying all of these broad accussations, not that all of them came from you personally, that people are making about police were simply false.

You were getting offended because you have buddies that are LEO and felt like people in this thread were disparaging them through association. Which "broad accusation" did come from me? That they're hired mercenaries? They are, my friend, even if they don't realize it. They are consistently made to invade our rights on behalf of the governments who hire them, when they're supposedly there to protect our rights. I never said they were all bad people or got into LEO for bad reasons, and stated otherwise. You took it that way due to relationships you have with some police officers which made this an emotional issue about their friendship and your loyalty to them, but it's keeping you from looking at the big picture.

Nothing I said in that post was about how individual police officers are evil people, I didn't call your buddies evil, but that's what you responded with... "well you don't know my buddies, they're cops and they're good people HOW MANY COPS DO YOU KNOW?" This isn't about individual people and their individual choices and intentions. My whole post was about systemic issues with the way things currently function.

Anti Federalist
02-04-2012, 06:30 AM
Anyhow, Im tired of even talking about this, you guys all believe what you will, you haven't changed my mind and I know I won't change yours, time to get back to the election, which was kinda my whole point in the first place.

An effort to elect an honest man to a corrupt and out of control government.

A corrupt and out of control government that has a million heavily armed enforcers, just itching to light our asses up.

You see...?

You're making an argument based on individuals, when it is the system that the individuals are serving that is the problem.

Do you think every Nazi SS officer or KGB agent was some sort of gibbering demon with guts in their teeth?

Of course not, they were, for the most part, mild mannered civil servants who thought they were doing nothing more than their job and patriotic duty.

And in the course of that, committed some of the worst atrocities mankind has ever seen.

Anti Federalist
02-08-2012, 07:35 AM
According to Canadian historian Robert Gellately's analysis of the local offices established, the Gestapo was—for the most part—made up of bureaucrats and clerical workers who depended upon denunciations by citizens for their information.[30] Gellately argued that it was because of the widespread willingness of Germans to inform on each other to the Gestapo that Germany between 1933 and 1945 was a prime example of Panopticism.[31] Indeed, the Gestapo—at times—was overwhelmed with denunciations and most of its time was spent sorting out the credible from the less credible denunciations.[32] Many of the local offices were understaffed and overworked, struggling with the paper load caused by so many denunciations.[33] Gellately has also suggested that the Gestapo was "a reactive organization" that "...which was constructed within German society and whose functioning was structurally dependent on the continuing co-operation of German citizens"

Pericles
02-08-2012, 10:31 AM
According to Canadian historian Robert Gellately's analysis of the local offices established, the Gestapo was—for the most part—made up of bureaucrats and clerical workers who depended upon denunciations by citizens for their information.[30] Gellately argued that it was because of the widespread willingness of Germans to inform on each other to the Gestapo that Germany between 1933 and 1945 was a prime example of Panopticism.[31] Indeed, the Gestapo—at times—was overwhelmed with denunciations and most of its time was spent sorting out the credible from the less credible denunciations.[32] Many of the local offices were understaffed and overworked, struggling with the paper load caused by so many denunciations.[33] Gellately has also suggested that the Gestapo was "a reactive organization" that "...which was constructed within German society and whose functioning was structurally dependent on the continuing co-operation of German citizens"

And carried over to the Stasi, as east Germany refined the model.

Anti Federalist
06-14-2014, 12:51 AM
This is systemic.

This is not a "few bad apples".

This is the result of training at both the federal, state and local level that is training LE that we the people are the enemy, to be neutralized as quickly and harshly as possible.

Voluminous evidence to support this has been posted by me and others over the past four years.

A police force trained in this manner is not the hallmark of a free society.

It is, in fact, the standing army that the Founders warned us of, in place to tyrannize and subjugate the people.

In the two years that have passed since I wrote this, it has been confirmed, more than once, that is precisely what is happening.

Spikender
06-14-2014, 12:55 AM
In the two years that have passed since I wrote this, it has been confirmed, more than once, that is precisely what is happening.

For as much flak as Adam caught for this video from users on here, he covered that subject a little later on in the video when talking about the SPLC and how they're training cops to view American citizens as the enemy and as belonging to hate groups:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UDFOpqqW9M#t=15

It's sad when these signs go ignored and people continue to go on and cheer on their own destruction. Every time a cop curb stomps a father, he was just following orders and he was under stress. Whenever a person snaps and shoots an officer, we have 24/7 coverage of the cop's grieving family and how he was a great officer and this is a tragedy.

Fuck everything.