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palm
01-27-2012, 09:02 PM
I am not a very effective debater. I was reading a thread here and apparently our far left friends would totally destroy me in a debate, and those are most of my church members. What can I do to effectively discourse, when I try the Socratic method it just leads to me being convinced of thier points. But I just realize our debt is out of control and the wars as well so I come back here.


So what can I do to assert myself and discuss politics on equal ground?

Ben Bernanke
01-27-2012, 09:04 PM
Read, Read, Read

palm
01-27-2012, 09:05 PM
Read, Read, Read

Politico, New York Times, Vague and Broad forum post in response to gullible political enthusiast?

Ben Bernanke
01-27-2012, 09:06 PM
Also the more debate, whether on a forum or in real life, the better you'll be at it. Practice makes perfect. Debating on a forum is nice because you have the internet at your fingertips to back up your argument. Helps you articulate your position better for live debates

Ben Bernanke
01-27-2012, 09:07 PM
Politico, New York Times, Vague and Broad forum post in response to gullible political enthusiast?

Well, what issue are you debating?

Mises.org
lewrockwell.org
infowars.com

All great liberty resources

palm
01-27-2012, 09:10 PM
Well, what issue are you debating?

Mises.org
lewrockwell.org
infowars.com

All great liberty resources


I just want to understand why libertarianism or, at least what ron paul plans to do is the best thing for our country; because Im telling you Obama supporters lie in live situations and I dont have direct claims nor evidence. Or facts why newt and romney even santorum are bad. I dont retain info well, but I am very evangelical.

Nate-ForLiberty
01-27-2012, 09:10 PM
Listen to Tom Woods lectures over and over. His way of presenting reason is wonderful to learn. Plus you will pick up great economic talking points.

palm
01-27-2012, 09:13 PM
thanks, I really appreciate the help. Im in school and teachers are very subtly liberal and I inherently know its wrong but I get tongue tied and pwned


where is the data to back this up?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/obamarecord.jpg/

iGGz
01-27-2012, 09:27 PM
[{}]

Jingles
01-27-2012, 09:55 PM
What you need is a strong dosage of Rothbard to get you to FULLY and TRULY embrace the NAP. I thought I did embrace it, but I had several reservations that I didn't even know about until Rothbard corrected them. Once you truly embrace in your heart and mind that the initiation of force/violence is immoral/unjust/etc... Everything just clicks into place so nicely.

May I suggest For A New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto by Murray N. Rothbard http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp

Some one mentioned Tom Woods. Listen to all his lectures over and over and over again (Go subscribe to anything related to the Mises Instutite on Itunes and you should be able to find them all. If not youtube). Like seriously, I didn't go to my 20th Century History class in college and instead listened to Tom Woods lectures and got an A. Read his blog. Read his books. Look for videos on youtube. Read anything by anyone associated with the Mises Instutite really as well as watching/listening to lectures. When I play video games I always have my headphones in my ears listening to mises.org lectures, those from this youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/LibertyInOurTime , or the Peter Schiff show. Walter Block is a pretty good go to guy in regards to taking on the positions that we get labeled as "hating the environment/poor people/etc... for)

Sites you need to visit everyday:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/
http://mises.org/
http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/
http://antiwar.com/

Lothario
01-28-2012, 12:44 AM
Well, what issue are you debating?

Mises.org
lewrockwell.org
infowars.com

All great liberty resources

Stefan Molyneux - freedomainradio.com

and

Stefan Molyneux and Stefan Molyneux

and

Stefan Molyneux.


How one of the best debaters in North America (who also happens to be liberty minded) isn't mentioned more often on here, I'll never know.

Ytrebil
01-28-2012, 09:18 AM
Something I use effectively from my debate toolbox is pointing out the eventual ineffectiveness/corruption of programs that were created with good intentions. So for instance, if you're talking with a liberal and they tell you how much we need government agencies like the FDA. My response would be "well you're right the FDA was created with really good intentions and in theory ofcourse everyone would like protections from poor quality food. But then just look at what happens, the FDA's power has run so rampant that now they help create laws preventing people from selling raw milk. Something humans have consumed for thousands of years is now suddenly illegal, who are they to say so?"

You can pretty much find some crazy overreach in any government program. It's important, I find, to empathize with them saying that you agree with the good intentions of the dept/program/legislation whatever it may be but that in the long run these things come back to bite us. This is only one tool to use but I hope it helps.

roversaurus
01-28-2012, 09:26 AM
Best debate advice.
Don't bite off more than you can chew. You don't have to prove Ron Paul is the best thing since sliced bread.
Just pick a few issues or facts and learn a little more about them. On the rest just say, "Well ... you might have a point. I don't know enough about that but <change back to your area of expertise>"

roversaurus
01-28-2012, 09:30 AM
thanks, I really appreciate the help. Im in school and teachers are very subtly liberal and I inherently know its wrong but I get tongue tied and pwned


where is the data to back this up?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/obamarecord.jpg/

Since it was something found on the internet it's probably got some lies in it. But most of the numbers look reasonable to me. For example the unemployment rate is spot on with official statistics found here: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&met_y=unemployment_rate&tdim=true&fdim_y=seasonality:S&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+rate

I am impressed that the creator of the chart didn't use 9% as Obama's rate because that's what it was just a short time ago.

asurfaholic
01-28-2012, 09:57 AM
I just want to understand why libertarianism or, at least what ron paul plans to do is the best thing for our country; because Im telling you Obama supporters lie in live situations and I dont have direct claims nor evidence. Or facts why newt and romney even santorum are bad. I dont retain info well, but I am very evangelical.

Then read the Bible. Jesus taught peace and love, for all. Tolerance for those who aren't "like" you. There are warnings against trusting a king to rule, and there are calls for sound currency. The bible is also clearly against murder, and when slapped you are to turn the other cheek.

Id mention the golden rule, but that is unpopular in some parts....

Also, moral integrity counts. How can newt be a good prez if he can't even commit to one wife? How can anyone hold an office if they hate brown people? Use your strengths...

torchbearer
01-28-2012, 10:06 AM
watching Michael Badnariks Constitution class online would give you a great deal of knowledge on the constitution
http://www.archive.org/details/Michael_Badnarik

acptulsa
01-28-2012, 10:18 AM
I just want to understand why libertarianism or, at least what ron paul plans to do is the best thing for our country; because Im telling you Obama supporters lie in live situations and I dont have direct claims nor evidence. Or facts why newt and romney even santorum are bad. I dont retain info well, but I am very evangelical.

I've seen you in some great threads for your purpose.

When you see stuff here that makes you say, 'I can use that!', write it down. In this electronic age, it seems to be a forgotten technique, but physically writing things down is a great, great memory aid.

vechorik
01-28-2012, 10:22 AM
I'm a new supporter and I'm using the following method to get "up to speed" quickly.

Start making a "cheat sheet" by cutting and pasting good arguments/facts/material.
I get lots of information here for my "cheat sheet."
Condense it until it's as short as possible.

As you collect things, you'll memorize them. As you blog, a subject will come up and it jogs your memory that you have something about that on your "cheat sheet."
Find it and "paste" it as a response.
As you respond with the cut and paste, you'll learn facts/statistics/policies/Ron Paul quotes, etc. that are "talking points"

These golden snippets, when repeated to others, state hard/true facts that aren't easily dismissed. You'll even remember the source of the information.

I can sympathize with you as, my debate skills are not great, but I can remember things I "cut and paste!"
Knowledge is power. As my "cheat grows" so does my knowledge, but it also helps me verbalize what I know.

Good luck! Like everything in life, you'll get better the more you try/practice.

PS I also keep "cheat sheets" of the various candidates by name -- different sheet of Ron Paul by name (to help find info quickly)

vechorik
01-28-2012, 10:23 AM
I've seen you in some great threads for your purpose.

When you see stuff here that makes you say, 'I can use that!', write it down. In this electronic age, it seems to be a forgotten technique, but physically writing things down is a great, great memory aid.

Yep, I must have been typing as you posted this. What you say is very true!
+1

Ytrebil
01-28-2012, 10:29 AM
watching Michael Badnariks Constitution class online would give you a great deal of knowledge on the constitution
http://www.archive.org/details/Michael_Badnarik

+ a million

Badnarik is a boss and knows how to lay down information. Just watch it on one of those lazy Saturday/Sunday's and all of a sudden you very productively used the day.

Also very crucial to my understanding of rights was this video series:

Intro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJqSsrFDiSA

#1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXOrJtn1h2M

#2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOUS6OalV2I

#3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AgcVNzObWE

#4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3YxvySQqkk

#5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5_N86Pblj0

seapilot
01-28-2012, 10:39 AM
I just want to understand why libertarianism or, at least what ron paul plans to do is the best thing for our country; because Im telling you Obama supporters lie in live situations and I dont have direct claims nor evidence. Or facts why newt and romney even santorum are bad. I dont retain info well, but I am very evangelical.

I talked with an evangelical the other day and I could not debate well because they looked at the subject from a biblical point of view and I from a political point of view. Maybe you can figure out how to apply it to a biblical more than a political. The other candidates are hypocrites and that makes people not trust them. This is why Ron Paul character is more true than theirs. God views us as individuals not a collective. Libertarian thought is the same, as people should be viewed as unique individuals not a collective. Big government favors the herd mentality rather than liberty as it is easier to control groups than individuals.

KCIndy
01-28-2012, 12:43 PM
I am not a very effective debater. I was reading a thread here and apparently our far left friends would totally destroy me in a debate, and those are most of my church members. What can I do to effectively discourse, when I try the Socratic method it just leads to me being convinced of thier points. But I just realize our debt is out of control and the wars as well so I come back here.


So what can I do to assert myself and discuss politics on equal ground?


Palm,

First of all, thanks for discussing Dr. Paul with people! As a social introvert myself, I know how tough it can be to have ANY sort of political discussion, especially face to face.

In regard to debate tips, what I try to do is think from my opponent's viewpoint. If I were arguing the opposite position, what would my most effective argument be? Try to know what that is - and have your best answer ready - ahead of time, *before* you even begin to talk to people.

As far as Dr. Paul's political positions and the reasoning behind each one, I cannot give high enough praise to "Liberty Defined" which is Dr. Paul's most recent book. It is a collection of short, very easily readable essays on the 50 most common political topics and his views on each. It covers everything from sound money to abortion to foreign policy.

If you don't have a copy of this book, I would highly recommend you pick one up!

Wolverine302
01-28-2012, 01:00 PM
Read the constitution.
Read it again. =======> http://ratify.constitutioncenter.org/constitution/index_no_flash.php
Read the bill of rights.
Know your history.
Understand what fallacies are.
Do not argue topics which you are unfamiliar with, or cannot cite credibly.
Read what the founding fathers wrote.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeWHmehAH28

Wesker1982
01-28-2012, 01:19 PM
Educating yourself is the best way.

People have told me that I am a good debater, but I would attribute 80% of it to being better read on the subjects being debated. The other 20% is staying calm and being able to spot logical fallacies (http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html). It is important not to take the bait when they bust out a fallacy. Responding to them gives their fallacious argument legitimacy when it actually has none. Don't underestimate the importance of spotting fallacies, because they are very commonly used, especially when debating politics.

Here are some good resources if you plan to debate people on the left:

Medical Insurance that Worked — Until Government "Fixed" It (http://praxeology.net/libertariannation/a/f12l3.html)
The Libertarian Three-Step Program (healthcare) (http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/09/the-libertarian-three-step-program/)
A list of specific reasons the State makes healthcare expensive, and why the market is the answer (http://praxeology.net/aotp.htm#1)
Talking points against Obama to memorize (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tns6bstqIKE)

This is a MUST watch. Study it. Applying Economics to American History (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-LJ3wZjD4I)

Clips from that lecture:
The Wild West Myth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf2Escui9ig)
Robber Baron Myth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbIIPtLEVbA)
Child Labor and the Free Market (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNj2g2_dfkI)
Labor Union Myths (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYVAxNqRTKY)

These are all subjects that are very important to understand. Not understanding these is a huge error since they are very common objections. There is no excuse not to know these subjects.

The inevitable monopoly objections:
CREATING MONOPOLIES THAT CONTROL US (http://www.ruwart.com/Healing/chap7.html)
Evil Monopolies Are Fairy Tales In Free Markets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO8ZU7TeKPw)
Fear of Monopoly (http://mises.org/daily/621)
Monopoly (http://www.fff.org/freedom/0592c.asp)
The Myth of Natural Monopoly (http://mises.org/daily/5266/The-Myth-of-Natural-Monopoly)
Big Business will dominate the free market? (http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/24150/415382.aspx#415382)

***Very important!!!***

***Anti-Market Ethics*** (http://mises.org/rothbard/mes/chap18a.asp)
***Anti-Market Ethics pt2*** (http://mises.org/rothbard/mes/chap18b.asp)

All of this is really must know stuff. Remember that you are going up against decades of indoctrination, so be prepared. Save all of these links or favorite this post. Just make sure you have this information readily available.

Also read Economics In One Lesson (http://www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson/) if you haven't. At least take a look at the table of contents and read the chapters that address likely arguments (min wage, unions, spread the work schemes).

RiseAgainst
01-28-2012, 01:38 PM
Stefan Molyneux - freedomainradio.com

and

Stefan Molyneux and Stefan Molyneux

and

Stefan Molyneux.


How one of the best debaters in North America (who also happens to be liberty minded) isn't mentioned more often on here, I'll never know.

Because there's lots of Stef hate here. 1. He's an anarchist, for a big majority of posters here who are somewhere on their journey from hardline GOPers, the term and the thought of 'no monopolistic government' almost causes their heads to explode. 2. Because Stef is incredibly principled in his anarchism and does not believe in government AT ALL, even in bringing about change, he has been critical of Dr. Paul. Of course he has clarified his position a billion times that he loves the Dr. and his message, but is completely against the use of government as a vehicle to achieve liberty, but people here just latch on to the "He's not 100% standing fully behind Dr. Paul so he must be against us" train of thought.


And to OP I'll add a couple more videos to help you out:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P772Eb63qIY

ronpaulhemp
01-28-2012, 02:26 PM
Check out TomWoods.com - very informative.

WilliamC
01-28-2012, 02:38 PM
I cut my teeth as it were debating for libertarianism back in the days of usenet in the late '90's early 2000's. Just don't get in such a rush to reply that you forget to proofread what you are about to post, and sometimes even wait a while after you write it to make sure it's really what you want to say.

A good resource for training yourself to spot logical fallacies in your or other peoples reasoning is http://www.logicalfallacies.info/.

Take time to ponder why you believe what you do, and be willing to abandoned beliefs that you cannot back up with reason.

This is an excellent thread, and I hereby give it the

http://www.deviantart.com/download/201213745/charlie_sheen_seal_of_win_by_iceyninjagurl-d3bspip.jpg

MyEyesTheyBurn
01-28-2012, 02:50 PM
I cut my teeth as it were debating for libertarianism back in the days of usenet in the late '90's early 2000's. Just don't get in such a rush to reply that you forget to proofread what you are about to post, and sometimes even wait a while after you write it to make sure it's really what you want to say.

A good resource for training yourself to spot logical fallacies in your or other peoples reasoning is http://www.logicalfallacies.info/.

Take time to ponder why you believe what you do, and be willing to abandoned beliefs that you cannot back up with reason.

This is an excellent thread, and I hereby give it the

http://www.deviantart.com/download/201213745/charlie_sheen_seal_of_win_by_iceyninjagurl-d3bspip.jpg

+ rep'd. Logical Fallacies has been a hot topic in my freethinkers group over the last few months. Very good to understand them. Funny how we all use them. A lot. Even when we know that we shouldn't.

Working Poor
01-28-2012, 03:24 PM
My dad was a supporter of Barry Goldwater and loved to engage me in debate. Back then I thought I was a liberal LOL.

There are videos of Bob Craig reading Ron's book "Liberty Defined" on youtube they are excellent I will post a few links for you. I hope you will listen to all of them:

http://youtu.be/F3k5Fw5P8-4

http://youtu.be/aeqdXMsJ2Q8

http://youtu.be/yrQwjZCbJrY

http://youtu.be/zk6GAibZerQ

RiseAgainst
01-28-2012, 03:41 PM
@Working Poor

Where did your avatar come from? Everytime I see it I think it's Sarah Palin in a blonde wig...

Kylie
01-28-2012, 04:00 PM
A good book that makes it easy to spot fallacies(bullshit arguments) is called "Aristotle and the aardvark go to Washington". Itsquite funny, and it explains how we use these fallacies so you can call others and yourself out on it.

If your argument doesnt have good logic and reasoning hehind it, then you should check your premise.

Read, my friend. Constantly, all the time. And come here like you are now. Its helped all of us learn and hone our skills.

bolil
01-28-2012, 04:07 PM
Sounds to me like your an independent thinker that is forced to argue against people given ready made lines of argument by a variety of sources (newsweek etc). If you want to get on equal footing just read what they read so that you can anticipate their rebuttals and form your own. Also, get a book an elementary logic I have one by W. V. Quine called Elementary Logic. It is pretty good. The Socratic method is good not good for winning arguments, just baiting other people into contradicting themselves.

FreeTraveler
01-28-2012, 04:08 PM
[ derail]

From the title of this thread, I thought it would be about the Second Amendment Solution.

I haz a sad.

That is all.

[/derail]

Butchie
01-28-2012, 04:11 PM
Well, what issue are you debating?

Mises.org
lewrockwell.org
infowars.com

All great liberty resources

Infowars?!?!?!?! You are not serious are you? Please, to the OP, DO NOT use infowars, they do have SOME truth but Alex is also a big conspiracy nut, if you quote things he says and they are false (which they often are) you can easily be made a fool of.

Jingles
01-28-2012, 04:16 PM
Infowars?!?!?!?! You are not serious are you? Please, to the OP, DO NOT use infowars, they do have SOME truth but Alex is also a big conspiracy nut, if you quote things he says and they are false (which they often are) you can easily be made a fool of.

I don't have a problem with Alex Jones, but I will agree with you that citing him in a debate isn't helpful.

Butchie
01-28-2012, 05:12 PM
I don't have a problem with Alex Jones, but I will agree with you that citing him in a debate isn't helpful.

I dont' mind him as some fun entertainment, but the moment you mention his name as a source you will lose the argument I guarantee that.

RiseAgainst
01-28-2012, 06:00 PM
I dont' mind him as some fun entertainment, but the moment you mention his name as a source you will lose the argument I guarantee that.

The moment the source of an argument is more important than it's content, you are having the wrong argument.

Lothario
01-28-2012, 06:04 PM
The moment the source of an argument is more important than it's content, you are having the wrong argument.

+1000

ronpaulitician
01-28-2012, 06:20 PM
1. Less is more. Pick at most a handful of individual issues and make those your bread and butter. I wouldn't pick libertarianism as a whole.
2. Do your own research. Even if someone you trust tells you "this is a fact", make sure to trace everything down all the way to the source.
3. Be ready to change your view.

The point is that you shouldn't be debating as much as just expressing your views. The better researched those views are, and the more you make them your own, the more convincing your explanations will be and the more weight your words will have.

Plus, always make sure to throw in a bunch of humor and to keep it lighthearted. You want the person you talk to to walk away with a smile.

iamse7en
01-28-2012, 06:26 PM
I use google to search these libertarian "encyclopedias." For example, type into google "site:lewrockwell.com vietnam war" without the quotes. I use this method for lewrockwell.com, mises.org, fff.org, infowars.com, etc. You can be prepared on any subject. I created a shortcut search engine for each of these sites in my Chrome browser. I use them all the time so I can learn more and more.

The biggest thing is this: be patient. I was completely politically naive 4 years ago. I've had a lot more free time than the average person over the last 4 years (school, unemployment, and now a job with quite a bit of free time during the day), but I have learned so much and developed into the "go-to" guy among all who know me for information on history, economics, politics, etc. Just 4 years of constant reading. Don't get caught up too much in the daily news cycles. Read a lot of books. It's great to read many articles, and keep doing so, but books are more comprehensive in many ways. It just takes time. Read, read, read, and you'll slowly develop the confidence to debate anyone. And be likeable in your debating style. I always smile, try not to seem like I know everything (though I know a lot more than these idiots I debate issues with), stay humble, and help others get to the same conclusions as you.

This thread right here is the perfect symbol of the Ron Paul movement. He inspires people to read and study and learn so they can defend liberty. He did the same to me a few years ago, and it's changed me forever! And this is why we love you, Ron!

Hospitaller
01-28-2012, 06:42 PM
Stefan Molyneaux: How to debate Liberty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKOTqRb5nvg

RiseAgainst
01-28-2012, 06:44 PM
This thread right here is the perfect symbol of the Ron Paul movement. He inspires people to read and study and learn so they can defend liberty. He did the same to me a few years ago, and it's changed me forever! And this is why we love you, Ron!

+rep

I hope that history never forgets the impact Ron has made in millions of peoples lives, and hopefully on the very course of our history.

Working Poor
01-28-2012, 06:51 PM
@Working Poor

Where did your avatar come from? Everytime I see it I think it's Sarah Palin in a blonde wig...

Actually it is me I made it.

Jingles
01-28-2012, 06:52 PM
Actually it is me I made it.

It has something to do with yahoo doesn't it?

RiseAgainst
01-28-2012, 06:52 PM
Actually it is me I made it.

Oops, sorry. :-]

Revolution9
01-28-2012, 07:26 PM
Stefan Molyneux - freedomainradio.com

and

Stefan Molyneux and Stefan Molyneux

and

Stefan Molyneux.


How one of the best debaters in North America (who also happens to be liberty minded) isn't mentioned more often on here, I'll never know.

Perhaps because many family oriented folks view him as a jerk for his views on family. He thinks kids should be removed from their parents to abide with his philosophy. I despise his useless and condescending view of the community of artists that he has, which in his myopic world view is comprised wholly of gallery hacks that he then proceeds to wade through and demolish his self made straw man like a benzedrine charged Nazi doing bayonet practice on a Stalin poster. He entirely discounted the other 99.2% of the artists community, the graphics, the sfx, the video editors, the mechanical illustrators, biological and species, museum, architectural sculptors, fashion, advertising, industrial designers etc, etc, etc. in his effort to be all counter culture and shit. I would kick his sociopathic ass in a debate. I don't play his shenanigans.

Rev9

Revolution9
01-28-2012, 07:31 PM
I just want to understand why libertarianism or, at least what ron paul plans to do is the best thing for our country; because Im telling you Obama supporters lie in live situations and I dont have direct claims nor evidence. Or facts why newt and romney even santorum are bad. I dont retain info well, but I am very evangelical.

Find one point of congruence at a time and try to explain it to someone who does not mind listening to you. Try to make it as clear as possible. When you can make it clear when explaining then you have grasped the concept. String several of the concepts together and you have a philosophical base for your understandings and subsequent explanations and then counterpoints in debating scenarios. Find the most interesting subjects in the catalog so that your focus is not diffused when digesting the structure of the arguments and premises. The beauty of the RP platform is that all the struts and beams of the structure lock together and make the finished structure rock steady and capable of dealing with even unforeseen onslaughts.

HTH
Rev9

Revolution9
01-28-2012, 07:34 PM
Actually it is me I made it.

Cool. I thought it was from that FOX TV show about the redneck town and the guy who sells propane. <--shows ya how much attention I pay to the idiot box..

:)
Rev9

heavenlyboy34
01-28-2012, 07:38 PM
when I was in debate class, I found it pays off to research every point of view on a subject-especially the ones you disagree with. Another useful thing is to learn formal logic so you can point out errors in opponents' thinking. (statist logic is full of inconsistencies and errors) BTW, arguing about ridiculous hypotheticals ("how will we be safe without the MIC occupying the world and a giant police State-and some turrist builds an evil mega-bomb that only blows up caucasians?") is a terrible idea. Stick to applied principles and logic.

PierzStyx
01-28-2012, 07:49 PM
I think something to remember is that the liberals are starting off on the wrong assumptions. If you try to argue their ideas, then of course they "win". You need to chop their knees out from under them. Their assumptions are wrong leading to wrong conclusions, no matter how logical they seem. I usually suggest stick to the Constitution. Its the law of the land, and the measure by which all other laws are taken. If something contradicts it then it is legally wrong and shouldn't be done.

Also learn more about the difference between Keynesian economics, and Austrian Economics. Liberals usually make their economic judgments based on Keynesian economics, a flawed system if eve there was one. The more Keynesian our economics have gotten the poorer we have gotten. Learn about Austrian Economics and be able to explain how it is a better system to run your economy with. Here is a link explaining the two well and a good place to start: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/03/01/837337/-Smackdown:-Keynes-vs-Hayek-With-Poll

palm
01-28-2012, 07:52 PM
When I say evangelical I mean this definition
: militant or crusading zeal
I am not a fundamentalist - at all


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This thread is good,it might be good to, like mises, create a thread of liberty basics, if there isn't one already. Foir newcomers to the movement, because ignorance internally and externally will hurt the movement -trust me I know. :|

CaptainAmerica
01-28-2012, 07:54 PM
I am not a very effective debater. I was reading a thread here and apparently our far left friends would totally destroy me in a debate, and those are most of my church members. What can I do to effectively discourse, when I try the Socratic method it just leads to me being convinced of thier points. But I just realize our debt is out of control and the wars as well so I come back here.


So what can I do to assert myself and discuss politics on equal ground?

Go to your local bookstore and look or ask a clerk to help you find a historical account of why and how the Roman Empire collapsed. This will give you a very good insight to why Ron Paul is right about everything in foreign policy and economics and the people you debate cannot refute history.

CaptainAmerica
01-28-2012, 07:59 PM
When I say evangelical I mean this definition
: militant or crusading zeal
I am not a fundamentalist - at all


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This thread is good,it might be good to, like mises, create a thread of liberty basics, if there isn't one already. Foir newcomers to the movement, because ignorance internally and externally will hurt the movement -trust me I know. :|

In Genesis God promises Abraham through a covenant a blessing to all the nations. Not just a "chosen " nation or a group of certain nations. God clearly spoke to Abraham and said through Abraham all the nations would be blessed by God. Jesus was the blessing to all nations. Go to the book of Galatians and study it, Paul confronts Peter for his hypocrisy of disregarding Christs gift of salvation(grace) and treating himself as if he is above gentiles and as if he can earn salvation. Those who believe in a physical kingdom and that a "chosen nation" exists are WRONG! that is anti-christ. Paul says that neither Jew or Gentile are above or below each other but equal through Christ. Israeli firsters are completely naive to the truth, its in Genesis,Matthew,Mark,Luke,John and Galatians as well as a few other bible books. Jesus did not come to establish a physical kingdom,he said he was of another world and that the kingdom of heaven was on earth through those who believe and follow him. Establishing physical borders,propping up governments and man made power was what the pharisees seeked to do and expected...this is why they rejected Christ ...because Christ took their authority away and he placed it into believers/followers.



Galatians 3

Faith or Works of the Law

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]
7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Paul confronts the church of Antioch and Peter ^ he references "salvation"through strict works of following law vs salvation by grace(gift from God we could never earn) then calls the hypocrites out for their racism,and piousness to place one group of people over another group.Now that last sentence might have been confusing the way I said it. Grace is the only reason we have salvation.Salvation cannot be earned by color,creed or status.Jesus did not choose one group over another,he died for all who believe in him and all who follow and believe in him are equal,and that is why Paul was mad and confronted the church for their hypocrisies at Antioch. This is one of the reasons I am completely against israeli-firster mentality, because it paints a picture that everyone in every other nation is less deserving of Christ and that they are evil which can't be farther from the truth.

Lothario
01-28-2012, 09:57 PM
Stefan Molyneaux: How to debate Liberty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKOTqRb5nvg

Good post. Debate genius right here.