What is up with the Keystone XL Pipeline?

[Brian4Liberty]

So it seems that the Keystone XL Pipeline extensions have turned into a huge political issue. Many arguments are being made with regard to special interests, including the argument that Warren Buffet doesn't want the pipeline so that crude oil can continue to be shipped via his railroad.

Two phases of the pipeline have already been built and put into production. Two new proposed extensions are controversial. Stepping back from vested industrial interests, what really makes sense? Americans need refined oil products such as gasoline, not crude oil. Why not build more refineries instead of more pipelines? It doesn't make sense to pipe crude oil all the way across the country, only to refine it and potentially ship it all the way back as gasoline.

Why not build more refineries at the source, and also along the existing pipelines? This avoids all of the sticky issues related to eminent domain, property rights, and environmental concerns and risks that surround a new pipeline.

For clarity, this is the pipeline that already exists and is in production:

http://markosun.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/keystone-pipeline-route-map.jpg

Here are the proposed extensions:

http://casualmereluxeeco.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/map-of-keystone-pipeline-and-addition.jpg?w=640

[eduardo89]

You can build all the refineries you want, but unless you habe crude they're useless. Keystone is a good project IMO, because it will allow for the US to increase its energy security by importing more crude from Canada, especially considering the fact the Mexico (3rd largest import partner) is experiencing dramatic declines in production and that needs to be filled.

[wgadget]

Today on Fox News there was something about Congressman Waxman taking a 10 minute recess to check out how/if the Koch brothers are involved in it.

[Brian4Liberty]

You can build all the refineries you want, but unless you habe crude they're useless. Keystone is a good project IMO, because it will allow for the US to increase its energy security by importing more crude from Canada, especially considering the fact the Mexico (3rd largest import partner) is experiencing dramatic declines in production and that needs to be filled.

Like I said in my OP, two segments are already completed and in production. There is Canadian Oil being pumped into the US already. And what's wrong with a refinery in Canada where the crude oil is being produced? The US border States can import gasoline instead of crude oil from Canada.

[eduardo89]

Like I said in my OP, two segments are already completed and in production. There is Canadian Oil being pumped into the US already. And what's wrong with a refinery in Canada where the crude oil is being produced? The US border States can import gasoline instead of crude oil from Canada.

This pipeline will increase capacity by almost a million barrels a day. There are no gasoline refineries in Canada that can handle this much crude, there are existing refineries in Texas that need crude. Also, Texas already has the infrastructure to distribute the refined products across the US and to other countries (Mexico, for example, doesn't have a single gasoline refinery and imports it all from Texas). It just makes more sense to send the crude south than to refine it in Alberta.

[TonySutton]

If the private corporations can get permission to build the pipeline from the private property owners then they should be free to invest their money in this endeavor. I do not see a reason for the government to be involved at all.

[Brian4Liberty]

This pipeline will increase capacity by almost a million barrels a day. There are no gasoline refineries in Canada that can handle this much crude, there are existing refineries in Texas that need crude. Also, Texas already has the infrastructure to distribute the refined products across the US and to other countries (Mexico, for example, doesn't have a single gasoline refinery and imports it all from Texas). It just makes more sense to send the crude south than to refine it in Alberta.

Which is why I said build more refineries along the existing pipeline. Building refineries will create jobs just like building a pipeline will, with the added benefit of not have to use all of that land for a new pipeline. No one said to shut down existing refineries in Texas. The oil industry has used the excuse of not enough refining capacity for decades, so it;s time to build some new ones.

As far as exporting gasoline outside of the US, I didn't consider that as a solution to US needs for gasoline. You may want gasoline in Mexico, and the big crony oil corporatists may want to be able to export oil and refined products, but that is not being openly discussed. As a matter of fact, having these politicians tell us that the "US needs energy independence" as a ploy to build a pipeline so that petroleum products can be exported would be fraud, and quite frankly, bordering on treasonous. Our representatives are supposed to represent the US, not foreign countries or international oil conglomerates.

[Brian4Liberty]

If the private corporations can get permission to build the pipeline from the private property owners then they should be free to invest their money in this endeavor. I do not see a reason for the government to be involved at all.

The government will be involved. That is not disputable. Eminent domain, new regulations and no doubt a lot of government money.

[musicmax]

Keystone's former inspector says the company does sub-standard work:

http://journalstar.com/news/opinion/editorial/columnists/mike-klink-keystone-xl-pipeline-not-safe/article_4b713d36-42fc-5065-a370-f7b371cb1ece.html?mode=story

"Let's be clear — I am an engineer; I am not telling you we shouldn't build pipelines. We just should not build this one. Pipelines can and do stand the test of time, but TransCanada already has shown that they cannot."

[Brian4Liberty]

Mexico, for example, doesn't have a single gasoline refinery and imports it all from Texas.

Why doesn't Mexico have any refineries near it's oil fields?

[crh88]

The government will be involved. That is not disputable. Eminent domain, new regulations and no doubt a lot of government money.

I think his point was that it shouldn't be involved, not that it won't be. Ideally, eminent domain should not exist, nor should regulations, nor should "government money"/taxpayers' stolen money. And if none of that existed, this would be a moot point. The free market would handle this issue, and the companies would do whatever makes the most sense (be that more pipeline or refineries).

[Brian4Liberty]

I think his point was that it shouldn't be involved, not that it won't be. Ideally, eminent domain should not exist, nor should regulations, nor should "government money"/taxpayers' stolen money. And if none of that existed, this would be a moot point. The free market would handle this issue, and the companies would do whatever makes the most sense (be that more pipeline or refineries).

Of course. I assumed that was from the "what should be" perspective.

[Brian4Liberty]

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/election/2012/01/25/republicans-step-up-attack-on-obama-over-keystone-pipeline/


Boiled down, the debate mainly revolves around jobs and the environment. Republicans – and some Democrats – say construction of the pipeline would create thousands of American jobs and lessen the nation’s dependency on foreign oil.

Piping Canada's oil across the US and exporting that oil and gasoline out of the US helps how?


Republican presidential contenders are also invoking Keystone frequently in debates and campaign appearances as a means to attack Obama’ policies as anti-business and anti-jobs. “Because he has to bow to the most extreme members of the environmental movement, he turns down the Keystone pipeline,” Mitt Romney said last week.


It must be a good thing if Romney wants to do it.

[eduardo89]

Why doesn't Mexico have any refineries near it's oil fields?

Mexico doesn't have oil fields, it's all offshore. And there's only one oil company that is state owned, Pemex. Our government gets a big deal of its revenue from Pemex and its led to huge mismanagement of the company. Oil production has gone down every year for the past decade, infrastructure is crumbling and there just isn't the money to build refineries which cost tens of billions of dollars.

[eduardo89]

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/election/2012/01/25/republicans-step-up-attack-on-obama-over-keystone-pipeline/

Piping Canada's oil across the US and exporting that oil and gasoline out of the US helps how?


Because Canada is a stable, friendly trading partner. Also Canada is the largest buyer of US goods, which means most dollars will flow back. Wouldn't you rather your oil come from Canada than Saudi Arabia? Canada is already the largest oil exporter to the US (twice as much as the Saudis)

[Brian4Liberty]

Because Canada is a stable, friendly trading partner. Also Canada is the largest buyer of US goods, which means most dollars will flow back. Wouldn't you rather your oil come from Canada than Saudi Arabia? Canada is already the largest oil exporter to the US (twice as much as the Saudis)

Sure trade with Canada is great. But this situation and propaganda from the establishment is like complaining that there are starving people at a table and asking them to pass plates of food from the fat guy on one end of the table down to the rich guy on the other end. The only thing that the people in the middle get is exercise passing plates and the risk of spilling hot gravy in their laps.

[phill4paul]

I'm kinda seeing where you are at on this Brian4Liberty. Personally, I've always been a little befuddled that we put all our eggs in one basket in Texas. From a national security standpoint.

[Brian4Liberty]

I'm kinda seeing where you are at on this Brian4Liberty. Personally, I've always been a little befuddled that we put all our eggs in one basket in Texas. From a national security standpoint.

Yeah, that and it reeks of corporatism. They have reduced the choices down to pipeline, or sky high gasoline prices. Take your pick. Where is competition? Where's the market that is open to new players and new refineries?

The ironic part of this is that the same government regulations and procedures that the Oil companies have negotiated over the years to prevent entry of new competition is now biting them. They want to expand something, and they are hemmed in by the competition killing, regulatory monster they helped to create. They have a great time when there is a friendly sheriff enforcing the laws that they wrote, but it becomes a problem when the new sheriff isn't as pliable to their desires. No worries though, the new sheriff just wants a new deal for himself and his friends. After all of the appropriate palms are greased, Obama will sign off on their plan.