Romney/Paul tag team on Gingrich may get him out of the race

[Chomsky]

http://milwaukeestory.com/index.php/2012/01/24/romney-and-paul-attacks-on-gingrich-effective-in-florida-355/

"Romney has the money to control the message going forward after Florida in Nevada, Maine, Colorado and Minnesota. Romney won all four of these states in 2008. He has had organizations in these states for six years. These two facts are an overwhelming advantage for Romney following Florida...The central question may soon become whether or not Santorum's supporters abandon ship and flock to the Gingrich's camp. That may be the only way Gingrich, short of a resounding win in Florida, can sustain his campaign through the long debateless month at begins Friday morning."

I think no debates surrounding the four feb. contests is a huge advantage for Romney and Paul and Gingrich may have a hard time staying afloat financially, although the Limbaughs and Fox News of the world with try. He has little to no organization in these states where Romney and Paul have been for 6 years now. I hate to say it but Romney is our best friend until we can face him one on one.

I also think we want Santorum to stick around because his voters do not translate to us, so he dilutes the Newt vote thru at least Florida which is good for us and Romney.

I don't know if we beat Romney head to head but we sure get a truckload of delegates along the way and make things extremely complicated and all it takes is a Romney scandal and the nomination is ours.

[Indiana4Paul]

http://milwaukeestory.com/index.php/2012/01/24/romney-and-paul-attacks-on-gingrich-effective-in-florida-355/

"Romney has the money to control the message going forward after Florida in Nevada, Maine, Colorado and Minnesota. Romney won all four of these states in 2008. He has had organizations in these states for six years. These two facts are an overwhelming advantage for Romney following Florida...The central question may soon become whether or not Santorum's supporters abandon ship and flock to the Gingrich's camp. That may be the only way Gingrich, short of a resounding win in Florida, can sustain his campaign through the long debateless month at begins Friday morning."

I think no debates surrounding the four feb. contests is a huge advantage for Romney and Paul and Gingrich may have a hard time staying afloat financially, although the Limbaughs and Fox News of the world with try. He has little to no organization in these states where Romney and Paul have been for 6 years now. I hate to say it but Romney is our best friend until we can face him one on one.

I also think we want Santorum to stick around because his voters do not translate to us, so he dilutes the Newt vote thru at least Florida which is good for us and Romney.

I don't know if we beat Romney head to head but we sure get a truckload of delegates along the way and make things extremely complicated and all it takes is a Romney scandal and the nomination is ours.

Agree with much of the tought here but Gingrich isn't going to leave the race until at least after Super Tuesday. Yes, February is going to be a long month for him but his campaign is all about consolidating the anti-Romney vote which he can do effectively with an "air campaign".

[Chomsky]

Agree with much of the tought here but Gingrich isn't going to leave the race until at least after Super Tuesday. Yes, February is going to be a long month for him but his campaign is all about consolidating the anti-Romney vote which he can do effectively with an "air campaign".

I think you are right that Gingrich is going to stick around through super tuesday unfortunately. I just don't see his money drying up. There is a chance he may play much less of a role come super tuesday though and although he would not have technically dropped out yet, he won't have the money to be competitive and I think the media may tire of him. But then again I was wrong in 2008 and didn't think McCain had what it took to get through Super Tuesday and we all know what happened there.

[Indiana4Paul]

I think you are right that Gingrich is going to stick around through super tuesday unfortunately. I just don't see his money drying up. There is a chance he may play much less of a role come super tuesday though and although he would not have technically dropped out yet, he won't have the money to be competitive and I think the media may tire of him. But then again I was wrong in 2008 and didn't think McCain had what it took to get through Super Tuesday and we all know what happened there.

He doesn't need as much money because he's got surrogates in Hannity, Limbaugh, etc pushing him hard.

[Darthbrooklyn]

Sheldon Adelson just gave Grinch another $5MM... so well see how long his sugar daddy lasts... Remind me never to go to ANY Las Vegas Sands properties ever again...

[seapilot]

Newt will have some momentum going out of Florida if he wins. Santorum gets last he will likely drop out. If Ron Paul and Mitt Romney can make Newt Place dead last in the caucuses leading up to Super Tuesday it will knock his momentum down going into that contest.

[RonPaul101.com]

I'd rather have Newt take the reigns of first place from Romney and have him eventually drop out. Newt isn;t on the ballot in some upcoming contests, so we should hope for him to be THE establishment candidate if at all possible.

I see three possible outcomes of this Mitt/Newt battle for first:

#1 - If Newt keeps winning to the point that Rick and Mitt drop out and support him, Paul has a real chance. Newt is not on 7 contest's ballots, while Paul (and Mitt) are on ALL of them. For example, if Newt is #1 that hands Paul Virginia by default on Super Tuesday; Virginia has more delegates then SC, NH, or IA.

#2 - Newt eventually fades to Romney, but at least he kept as many delegates from Romney as he did from Paul. Paul never expected anything out of SC and FL, but I am certain Romney did. This may give Paul a chance especially in the rapid moving contests of early February. The others are in Fl, yet Paul is heading to Maine as we speak.

#3 - Everyone continues this garbage forever. Newt wins some, Mitt wins some, and hopefully Paul wins a few here and there. No one will have the 1144 delegates it takes to be nominated due to a 3 or 4 man race continuing. At the convention delegates will be able to vote however they see fit, which actually gives Paul a chance as well. He has a lot of organization from the ground up. One clue to how much organization will be visible in April when the Iowa Caucus delegates hold their vote. If Paul gets the most delegates there, even while coming in 3rd place in the straw vote, it will show the organizational strength behind the scenes.

[Indiana4Paul]

Newt will have some momentum going out of Florida if he wins. Santorum gets last he will likely drop out.

Santorum has said he is in it until at least Arizona. He may decide to skip the February Caucus states to focus solely on Arizona.

Of course he might bow to pressure to get out too.

[dfalken]

http://milwaukeestory.com/index.php/2012/01/24/romney-and-paul-attacks-on-gingrich-effective-in-florida-355/

"Romney has the money to control the message going forward after Florida in Nevada, Maine, Colorado and Minnesota. Romney won all four of these states in 2008. He has had organizations in these states for six years. These two facts are an overwhelming advantage for Romney following Florida...The central question may soon become whether or not Santorum's supporters abandon ship and flock to the Gingrich's camp. That may be the only way Gingrich, short of a resounding win in Florida, can sustain his campaign through the long debateless month at begins Friday morning."

How do you figure he is our best friend. I think we would be better served

I think no debates surrounding the four feb. contests is a huge advantage for Romney and Paul and Gingrich may have a hard time staying afloat financially, although the Limbaughs and Fox News of the world with try. He has little to no organization in these states where Romney and Paul have been for 6 years now. I hate to say it but Romney is our best friend until we can face him one on one.

I also think we want Santorum to stick around because his voters do not translate to us, so he dilutes the Newt vote thru at least Florida which is good for us and Romney.

I don't know if we beat Romney head to head but we sure get a truckload of delegates along the way and make things extremely complicated and all it takes is a Romney scandal and the nomination is ours.

What good does it do us to get a bunch of delegates if Romney is getting more at each state? I don't understand why so many think our priority should be attacking Newt at this point. The guys is unelectable, has no organization and is prone to blow up at any minute. I am hoping he is able to keep it together for another week before blowing up so he can beat Romney (hopefully handily) in Florida and knock more wind out of his sails, and then we can move to the caucus states and actually WIN them.

[dfalken]

I'd rather have Newt take the reigns of first place from Romney and have him eventually drop out. Newt isn;t on the ballot in some upcoming contests, so we should hope for him to be THE establishment candidate if at all possible.

I see three possible outcomes of this Mitt/Newt battle for first:

#1 - If Newt keeps winning to the point that Rick and Mitt drop out and support him, Paul has a real chance. Newt is not on 7 contest's ballots, while Paul (and Mitt) are on ALL of them. For example, if Newt is #1 that hands Paul Virginia by default on Super Tuesday; Virginia has more delegates then SC, NH, or IA.

#2 - Newt eventually fades to Romney, but at least he kept as many delegates from Romney as he did from Paul. Paul never expected anything out of SC and FL, but I am certain Romney did. This may give Paul a chance especially in the rapid moving contests of early February. The others are in Fl, yet Paul is heading to Maine as we speak.

#3 - Everyone continues this garbage forever. Newt wins some, Mitt wins some, and hopefully Paul wins a few here and there. No one will have the 1144 delegates it takes to be nominated due to a 3 or 4 man race continuing. At the convention delegates will be able to vote however they see fit, which actually gives Paul a chance as well. He has a lot of organization from the ground up. One clue to how much organization will be visible in April when the Iowa Caucus delegates hold their vote. If Paul gets the most delegates there, even while coming in 3rd place in the straw vote, it will show the organizational strength behind the scenes.

The risk I see with strategy #3 which seems to be the preferred one by the campaign and many supporters is that we would be facing up to the establishment at that point and we all know they will lie, cheat and steal to keep Ron from winning and I am not convinced our organization can get around a stacked deck of cards. I really think we need to start winning several states and become a true contender. The 4 upcoming caucuses are truly make it or break it, if we can't win at least one then nothing short of a hail mary will get Ron elected.

[Todd]

#1 - If Newt keeps winning to the point that Rick and Mitt drop out and support him, Paul has a real chance. Newt is not on 7 contest's ballots, while Paul (and Mitt) are on ALL of them. For example, if Newt is #1 that hands Paul Virginia by default on Super Tuesday; Virginia has more delegates then SC, NH, or IA.

I keep hearing this, but the only ones that one can find are Missouri and Virginia.

Link please..

Edit: Did see Ohio too.

[Esoteric]

At a brokered convention, there is a 0% chance that Paul will get Romney or Newt delegates. One will endorse the other, in a massive-scale backroom deal.

[cajuncocoa]

I was not unhappy at all to see Romney attacking Newt hard in the debate last night.

[Sublyminal]

If Romney drops out, there is no chance in hell of him endorsing Gingrich. And hear me out. Romney seems like the type to hold a grudge, and he will see Newt as the reason why he is out of the race and lost the nomination. If anything he'll throw his support behind Ron, who has not really attacked Romney and they both seem to like each other.

[Shredmonster]

At a brokered convention, there is a 0% chance that Paul will get Romney or Newt delegates. One will endorse the other, in a massive-scale backroom deal.

Unfortunately I believe this to be the case. USA is fucked I think. I think the sheeple are too damned stupid for self government. Sheeple don't want to face the real world problems and prefer to bury their heads in the sand and always get the government they deserve while dragging the rest of us with them.

I would love nothing more than for Ron Paul to win. I donated to his campaign. But one man cannot take on the whole corrupt system and all of its money as well as the medias influence.

I can't believe all the friggen idiots - guys I thought would know better like Limbaugh - ripping Paul for his foreign policy. They don't know what the hell his foreign policy would be as he does not get a chance to fully explain ever. Nor do they give him the benefit of the doubt.

I am fucking angry. Ron Paul is head and shoulders above the rest you gotta be blind and in denial not to see it. All these people say they want to save the country and then they go for establishment types ? Stick a fork in the USA as we ARE going to be a police state. Never ever thought I would see this in my life time although I knew it was coming.

Funny thing is I just really learned about Ron Paul this year. People in the media that don't agree mock Paul supporters because they are passionate. Yeah - passionate to stay out of slavery, totalitarianism, fascism, authoritarianism...... How otherwise educated supposedly smart people cannot see this for what it is is beyond me. Too stupid for self government I say.

[Sublyminal]

Unfortunately I believe this to be the case. USA is fucked I think. I think the sheeple are too damned stupid for self government. Sheeple don't want to face the real world problems and prefer to bury their heads in the sand and always get the government they deserve while dragging the rest of us with them.

I would love nothing more than for Ron Paul to win. I donated to his campaign. But one man cannot take on the whole corrupt system and all of its money as well as the medias influence.

I can't believe all the friggen idiots - guys I thought would know better like Limbaugh - ripping Paul for his foreign policy. They don't know what the hell his foreign policy would be as he does not get a chance to fully explain ever. Nor do they give him the benefit of the doubt.

I am fucking angry. Ron Paul is head and shoulders above the rest you gotta be blind and in denial not to see it. All these people say they want to save the country and then they go for establishment types ? Stick a fork in the USA as we ARE going to be a police state. Never ever thought I would see this in my life time although I knew it was coming.


This has been happening for the last 50-odd years. "You will conform or you will be FEMA'd!" - NWO.

[D.A.S.]

Unfortunately I believe this to be the case. USA is fucked I think. I think the sheeple are too damned stupid for self government. Sheeple don't want to face the real world problems and prefer to bury their heads in the sand and always get the government they deserve while dragging the rest of us with them.

I would love nothing more than for Ron Paul to win. I donated to his campaign. But one man cannot take on the whole corrupt system and all of its money as well as the medias influence.

I can't believe all the friggen idiots - guys I thought would know better like Limbaugh - ripping Paul for his foreign policy. They don't know what the hell his foreign policy would be as he does not get a chance to fully explain ever. Nor do they give him the benefit of the doubt.

I am fucking angry. Ron Paul is head and shoulders above the rest you gotta be blind and in denial not to see it. All these people say they want to save the country and then they go for establishment types ? Stick a fork in the USA as we ARE going to be a police state. Never ever thought I would see this in my life time although I knew it was coming.

Funny thing is I just really learned about Ron Paul this year. People in the media that don't agree mock Paul supporters because they are passionate. Yeah - passionate to stay out of slavery, totalitarianism, fascism, authoritarianism...... How otherwise educated supposedly smart people cannot see this for what it is is beyond me. Too stupid for self government I say.

Who said taking Liberty back will be easy?

There will be anger, there will be frustration, but we have to be willing to go the distance, to June, without second-guessing what MIGHT be. What we do will define what happens. So get involved, get on the phone and participate in Phone from Home, and if that's not possible, find some local Ron Paul supporters and organize local events to make Ron Paul visible and show our defiant spirit to take the country back.

[Sublyminal]

Who said taking Liberty back will be easy?

There will be anger, there will be frustration, but we have to be willing to go the distance, to June, without second-guessing what MIGHT be. What we do will define what happens. So get involved, get on the phone and participate in Phone from Home, and if that's not possible, find some local Ron Paul supporters and organize local events to make Ron Paul visible and show our defiant spirit to take the country back.


I wonder if after June comes and if RP doesn't get the nod, if he'll announce he's running Indy. If so the Indy vote and the disenfranchised Democrats is pretty much locked up. Sad thing is he'd need a ton of money to do this, since he doesn't have Perot's billions, to self fund a campaign.

[Indiana4Paul]

At a brokered convention, there is a 0% chance that Paul will get Romney or Newt delegates. One will endorse the other, in a massive-scale backroom deal.

I disagree that Romney and Newt would ever reach a deal. I think we'd end up with a big movement to nominate someone like John Hoeven.

Strategically, Hoeven would go a long way towards delivering the Upper Midwest states like MN, IA, WI, MI, IN, and OH that Obama won in 2008. He has a very good record of creating jobs and growing the state's economy which they'll want to contrast with Obama's record. He built the economy with investment in Energy which is an issue the RNC wants to hang around Obama's neck. Furthermore, before he was Governor he ran the Bank of ND which is something he can use to push pro-growth, entreprenuership and contrast starkly with the Big Bank Wall Street Model. He is pro-life, has been in the Senate since 2010 which means he has no real record of controversial votes that Team Obama can attack and at the same time can speak credibly about the dysfunction of Washington. He looks boring, been married forever and he has absolutely destroyed every Democrat that he has run against.

He is also reportedly very pro state's rights when it comes to Drug control...

------
Edited to add that he was Dartmouth/Northwestern educated so he also has the intellectual chops.

[One Last Battle!]

I wonder if after June comes and if RP doesn't get the nod, if he'll announce he's running Indy. If so the Indy vote and the disenfranchised Democrats is pretty much locked up. Sad thing is he'd need a ton of money to do this, since he doesn't have Perot's billions, to self fund a campaign.

Sore loser laws would keep him from being registered in about 2/3rds of the states. It would make far more sense to endorse Gary Johnson.

[bbartlog]

I think it's actually more likely that Romney would get squeezed, assuming we are successful. Gingrich is still favored to win Florida. If he does that and if we manage to beat Romney in some of the caucuses (say, Maine and Minnesota), then Romney starts to look pretty weak. Now of course it might be that Romney will win all those caucuses, but frankly then it's us getting squeezed.


I wonder if after June comes and if RP doesn't get the nod, if he'll announce he's running Indy.

Hope not. Those resources would be better spent organizing and getting other liberty candidates in office. Seriously: if we can't win the (R) primary, why would we be able to win the more difficult 3-way running as Independent?

[torchbearer]

we need a three way race for a brokered convention. and we need the other two candidates to hate each other very much.

[Sublyminal]

I think it's actually more likely that Romney would get squeezed, assuming we are successful. Gingrich is still favored to win Florida. If he does that and if we manage to beat Romney in some of the caucuses (say, Maine and Minnesota), then Romney starts to look pretty weak. Now of course it might be that Romney will win all those caucuses, but frankly then it's us getting squeezed.



Hope not. Those resources would be better spent organizing and getting other liberty candidates in office. Seriously: if we can't win the (R) primary, why would we be able to win the more difficult 3-way running as Independent?


Same reason Perot would have won had he not dropped out five months before. The Indy vote + the Disenfranchised Democrats + all of us.

[CaptainAmerica]

Ron should have been attacking Newt lastnight . Newt will be too busy trying to fight off Romney with all his money in FL because its a winner take all state....Newt won't waste money trying to attack Paul because itd make him look bad and its a waste of money since his real fight in FL is against Romney. Paul needs to stop being mr nice guy with newt.

[torchbearer]

Ron just needs to run ads about himself explaining his positions better.
let Romney and Gingrich throw shit at each other. we are in the driver seat of a three way convention.

[RonPaulMyPresident]

Its not a good idea to go with Romney because we are competing for the same voters he's competing for (the educated intelligent voters).

If you look at the race so far, Gingrich was only successful in South Carolina because SC is a hawkish state. He was far behind in Iowa and NH, the states Ron Paul and Mitt Romney did well in.


Gingrich's popularity will diminish once we move up north. Its Mitt Romney we have to be worried about.

[RonPaulMyPresident]

Ron should have been attacking Newt lastnight . Newt will be too busy trying to fight off Romney with all his money in FL because its a winner take all state....Newt won't waste money trying to attack Paul because itd make him look bad and its a waste of money since his real fight in FL is against Romney. Paul needs to stop being mr nice guy with newt.

Sit back, relax, and watch Gingrich and Romney attack each other. They both made big fools out of themselves last night.

[torchbearer]

Its not a good idea to go with Romney because we are competing for the same voters he's competing for (the educated intelligent voters).

If you look at the race so far, Gingrich was only successful in South Carolina because SC is a hawkish state. He was far behind in Iowa and NH, the states Ron Paul and Mitt Romney did well in.


Gingrich's popularity will diminish once we move up north. Its Mitt Romney we have to be worried about.

we should worry about neither, and do the things we need to do to win delegates where we can.
we need those two retards to split the rest of the votes.
if one knocks the other out of the race, we have a hard time winning this thing.

[Liberty1789]

For RonPaulMyPresident

From exit polls so far, share of Paul's votes cast by education:
Never attended College 16%
Some College 20%
College Grads 18%
Postgraduates 15% (Romney cruising at 40% here: the Harvard halo effect!)

So Paul is not disproportionately attractive to the educated (to my great disappointment!).

[torchbearer]

For RonPaulMyPresident

From exit polls so far, share of Paul's votes cast by education:
Never attended College 16%
Some College 20%
College Grads 18%
Postgraduates 15% (Romney cruising at 40% here: the Harvard halo effect!)

So Paul is not disproportionately attractive to the educated (to my great disappointment!).

where people get their info is a greater at determining how someone thinks about ron paul.
if all you watched is fox news, you'd have a negative view of ron paul.
if you tv was stuck on a loop of freedom watch, you'd have a positive view of ron paul.
if everyone you knew was a ron paul supporter- you'd probably be a ron paul supporter.
if everyone you knew was trapped in the same fox news reality as you were, you'd hate ron paul.
we base our decisions in life on the information we have available.

[Jingles]

I've seen a lot of people hoping/thinking Mitt Romney will drop out if Gingrich begins to overshadow him. This isn't happening. Romney is in it for the long haul.

[torchbearer]

I've seen a lot of people hoping/thinking Mitt Romney will drop out if Gingrich begins to overshadow him. This isn't happening. Romney is in it for the long haul.

and this works out for us in the end.

[iamse7en]

If Romney drops out, there is no chance in hell of him endorsing Gingrich. And hear me out. Romney seems like the type to hold a grudge, and he will see Newt as the reason why he is out of the race and lost the nomination. If anything he'll throw his support behind Ron, who has not really attacked Romney and they both seem to like each other.

I agree with this... let's be honest - Romney only cares about being president. He does not want to be a Sentaor or Congressman. This is his last try. If he can't win, I just don't see how he could tell everyone to support Newt. Dropping out and endorsing McCain last year was merely a political move. I kinda feel bad for the guy (but not really). He tried to do EVERYTHING to please the establishment, the CFR, the banking cartel, and the military-industrial complex... and they don't want him! Should be a lesson to opportunists out there... don't cater to the evil side, unless you're one of them, they don't want you. Romney is not evil. Newt certainly is. Newt depends upon his political power for his money and influence.

[Chomsky]

At a brokered convention, there is a 0% chance that Paul will get Romney or Newt delegates. One will endorse the other, in a massive-scale backroom deal.

I agree with this, I think RP collecting delegates is truly trying to win the nomination, but short of that it is more just keeping the message in the limelight than thinking they will have any tangible success at a brokered convention. I would be entertaining though, there is no question about that.

[Mini-Me]

I agree with this... let's be honest - Romney only cares about being president. He does not want to be a Sentaor or Congressman. This is his last try. If he can't win, I just don't see how he could tell everyone to support Newt. Dropping out and endorsing McCain last year was merely a political move. I kinda feel bad for the guy (but not really). He tried to do EVERYTHING to please the establishment, the CFR, the banking cartel, and the military-industrial complex... and they don't want him! Should be a lesson to opportunists out there... don't cater to the evil side, unless you're one of them, they don't want you. Romney is not evil. Newt certainly is. Newt depends upon his political power for his money and influence.

I wouldn't necessarily say, "They don't want him." They'll be happy to take him, so don't think they won't...it's just that he's not their first choice. :p I think it's also a mistake to say, "Romney is not evil." Romney isn't as close to the globalist elites as Gingrich, and he's nowhere near as volatile, but he's still a total narcissist without a conscience, so that qualifies I think.

[speciallyblend]

Attack Romney, Newt is just a gnat.

[JJ2]

I also think we want Santorum to stick around because his voters do not translate to us, so he dilutes the Newt vote thru at least Florida which is good for us and Romney.

I think we would get some of the social conservative/pro-life/Evangelical voters from Santorum who don't want to support Newt or Mitt. And also those who don't see Newt or Mitt as true conservatives so they are voting for Santorum.

[goldpants]

I think we would get some of the social conservative/pro-life/Evangelical voters from Santorum who don't want to support Newt or Mitt. And also those who don't see Newt or Mitt as true conservatives so they are voting for Santorum.

I agree with this. There are a lot of conservatives floating in the Santorum only because Ron is perceived as unelectable or hardly seen period. We would land many of his evangelicals and gun rights/pro-life folks. I would like to see froth gone after FL.

[dvalukis]

idk if February is going to stay debateless. FOX'll throw one together if they feel necessary

[Edward]

I think we would get some of the social conservative/pro-life/Evangelical voters from Santorum who don't want to support Newt or Mitt. And also those who don't see Newt or Mitt as true conservatives so they are voting for Santorum.


I agree with this. There are a lot of conservatives floating in the Santorum only because Ron is perceived as unelectable or hardly seen period. We would land many of his evangelicals and gun rights/pro-life folks. I would like to see froth gone after FL.

I disagree. The cross tabs in the last PPP poll out of South Carolina (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_SC_1201023.pdf) (PDF, p.24) show that Santorum voters like Gingrich, are split on Romney, and do not like Paul. Those folks are going Newt's way.

[CaptainAmerica]

Ron should have been giving Newt Gingrich the steven seagal choke hold from behind because Romney and Gingrich are too busy throwing tons of money at eachother in Florida.

[cindy25]

isn't it better of Romney drops out?

[Chomsky]

isn't it better of Romney drops out?

It would actually be best if Gingrich dropped out because it would be easier to contrast Ron Paul with Romney to the undecided conservative voters and get some of Gingrich's old supporters, many of his supporters aren't super loyal anyway. Just look at how much his poll numbers have fluctuated in just the last 3 months. Romney however has steady support, but a ceiling on that support at around 30-35% nationally. Ron Paul was at around 25% before the newsletter stuff and he could surpass that easily with independent support.