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Matt Collins
11-10-2007, 10:24 PM
What's God Got to Do With It?
By Kathleen Parker
Friday, November 9, 2007

WASHINGTON -- When the founder of the Christian Coalition, who blames national disasters on abortion, gives his support to a thrice-married, pro-abortion, pro-gay-rights Catholic, does religion really matter anymore?

Pat Robertson's endorsement Wednesday of Rudy Giuliani for president just shifted "strange bedfellows" into "the weird turn pro" category. Robertson, who famously blamed Hurricane Katrina on our wanton ways -- and urged the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez -- announced his vote of confidence, saying that Giuliani has "proven time and time again that he is a social conservative."

Except that Giuliani hasn't and isn't, but that's OK because what Giuliani has proved time and again is that he was mayor of New York City on 9/11. And, as Robertson also said, Giuliani can be relied upon to defend the country against "the blood lust of Islamic terrorists."

Robertson's endorsement must have been a sticky moment for Giuliani, who couldn't rightly say, "no thanks," even if he might not relish being captured in the same frame with a man whose fellow evangelicals consider him only intermittently sane.

Generally speaking, politicians can move pretty quickly when they're about to be caught by the camera lens standing next to a fellow known for saying such things as liberal judges are a greater danger to America "than a few bearded terrorists who fly into buildings."

Then again, Robertson still holds sway with a daily average audience of almost 900,000 with his Christian Broadcasting Network's "The 700 Club." And Giuliani shares Robertson's concern about liberal judges, if not his sense that they're more dangerous than terrorists. Every chance he gets, Giuliani assures conservative audiences that, if elected, he'll appoint strict constructionist judges.

To evangelicals such as Robertson, that promise can be understood to mean: "I'm really on your team, but I have to get elected, don't I?"

But even conservative judges and Giuliani's tough posture on terrorism fail to tell what many believe is really behind Robertson's anointing of the most liberal Republican candidate for president. The real issue isn't fetuses or embryos or same-sex unions or bearded bad guys.

It's Clintons.

When it comes to that ol' time religion, nothing quite sparks the evangelical spirit like the thought of Bill and Hillary back in the White House and all the attendant imagery forever tattooed on buttoned-up brains.

Depending on one's view, Robertson is either unprincipled or brave. In fact, he has taken a courageous step by creating a crack in the conservative religious firmament. This at a time when religious conservatives have been threatening to stay home from the polls -- or support a third-party candidate -- rather than compromise principle.

Meeting in Salt Lake City recently, evangelical leaders discussed the third-party alternative. A Pew Research Center survey last month found that half of white evangelical Republicans would consider voting for a third-party candidate if Giuliani and Hillary face off next November.

But Robertson, for all his bluster and blunder, may have shifted the tectonic plates by giving evangelicals a green light to support Giuliani and forcing the question: Can evangelicals really afford to let Clinton win just so they can brag about being more virtuous than everyone else?

Michael Cromartie, director of the Evangelicals in Civic Life program at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, suggests Robertson's endorsement shows a growing pragmatic streak among religious conservatives. Many have learned, Cromartie says, that "politics is the art of making choices between relative goods and lesser evils.

Some evangelicals still insist they won't vote for Giuliani. Focus on the Family's James Dobson is one. Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, is another. Both have cited Giuliani's support for abortion and his multiple marriages.

Speaking to Newsweek last month, Land compared a vote for Giuliani to voting for a Klansman and said, "I cannot vote for someone who believes that it's all right to stop a beating heart."

Land also has said that evangelicals might support Mitt Romney despite theological differences. Cromartie agrees, but again, Hillary matters most.

"They just don't want her," he says of evangelicals.

So in 2008, if terror trumps bioethics, and Hillary puts terror in evangelical hearts, what does religious conviction mean? Is religion primarily a matter of virtue -- or of pragmatism?

Next November will tell. In the meantime, a glance at two recent surveys by the Pew Research Center provides a hint: Both parties' front-runners, Clinton and Giuliani, also lead among a broad spectrum of religious groups.

For now, it would appear that pragmatism is virtue, and religion on the right means beating Hillary.

Kathleen Parker is a syndicated columnist with the Washington Post Writers Group.


Column:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/KathleenParker/2007/11/09/whats_god_got_to_do_with_it

Matt Collins
11-11-2007, 05:20 PM
Bump

ladyliberty
11-11-2007, 05:30 PM
If Janet Folger of the Values Voters Debate fame has her way - we should all vote for Mike Huckabee - that is who she claims is our "David" blah blah blah

I maintain that Ron Paul is the only Christian running for office who actually practices what he preaches - the rest are all a bunch of hypocrits, including Janet Folger (who seems to have only skimmed the Bible and never really read it - especially the part in 1 Corinthians that tells us women are to remain silent in church!) and Pat Robertson - who ought to be taken off the airways completely.

Matt Collins
11-11-2007, 08:31 PM
Janet Folger (who seems to have only skimmed the Bible and never really read it - especially the part in 1 Corinthians that tells us women are to remain silent in church!) LOL

Actually that scripture wasn't in the original texts. It was added in by someone much later. Any college freshman humanities course will teach you that ;-)

ladyliberty
11-11-2007, 08:49 PM
:rolleyes: I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist - not an Evangelical like Folger is.

Matt Collins
11-24-2007, 08:23 PM
I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist - not an EvangelicalPlease explain the difference

inibo
11-24-2007, 09:42 PM
Please explain the difference

Having once been a fundamental Baptist I will say the differences would be obscure to an outsider. Evangelical is a term that encompasses almost all protestant denominations, some would say there are even evangelical Catholics. The inclusion of liturgical churches, such a Methodists, Episcopalian, Lutheran, along with groups like Pentecostals, all of which have considerable doctrinal conflicts with fundamentalism puts them outside the pale. Even though the basis tenets of Evangelicalism including sola scriptura and sola fide, along with a personal conversion experience and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ coincide with fundamental doctrine, including other things, like transubstantiation, consubstantiation, clericism, ecclesiasticism and the varying degrees of acceptance of the efficacy of ritual observances such as infant baptism found in "mainline" churches is considered anathema. At least that's the line I took. Perhaps those who are still active in fundamental churches could do a better job of explaining it than I can.

ziggy_encaoua
11-24-2007, 09:47 PM
Speaking personally I wish religion wasn't an issue period in any election

Matt Collins
11-24-2007, 10:51 PM
Having once been a fundamental Baptist I will say the differences would be obscure to an outsider. Evangelical is a term that encompasses almost all protestant denominations, some would say there are even evangelical Catholics. The inclusion of liturgical churches, such a Methodists, Episcopalian, Lutheran, along with groups like Pentecostals, all of which have considerable doctrinal conflicts with fundamentalism puts them outside the pale. Even though the basis tenets of Evangelicalism including sola scriptura and sola fide, along with a personal conversion experience and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ coincide with fundamental doctrine, including other things, like transubstantiation, consubstantiation, clericism, ecclesiasticism and the varying degrees of acceptance of the efficacy of ritual observances such as infant baptism found in "mainline" churches is considered anathema. At least that's the line I took. Perhaps those who are still active in fundamental churches could do a better job of explaining it than I can.

And you just explained why I quit going to church... too much bs for things that are really not important.

inibo
11-24-2007, 11:42 PM
And you just explained why I quit going to church... too much bs for things that are really not important.

For people who believe it it is very important. The thing that finally did it in for me was the concept of verbal, plenary inspiration of the Bible. It takes a serious suspension of logic to accept that doctrine. It got to be to much work, my brain got tired. Then one day I came to the realization that I was a hypocrite, trying to convince people of something I knew wasn't true. It was sort of liberating. I went through a very bitter anti-Christian phase, practiced Paganism, initiated into Wicca, flirted with the O.T.O. and discovered the Sefer Yetzirah. That was an eye opener. Now I read the Bible more than I have in years. Stripped of its externalities and dogmatic baggage it is really a wonderful book.

American
11-24-2007, 11:46 PM
I want to know when its becomes to good idea to vote Apocalypse. At which part in the weekly sermon does this bright idea cross there minds..."Hmmm, you know what, GOD needs MY help"

Matt Collins
11-25-2007, 11:20 AM
I went through a very bitter anti-Christian phase, practiced Paganism, initiated into Wicca, flirted with the O.T.O. and discovered the Sefer Yetzirah. That was an eye opener. Now I read the Bible more than I have in years. Stripped of its externalities and dogmatic baggage it is really a wonderful book.Geeze... I haven't lost my faith, it's still strong as a rock, I just keep it very simple and don't cloud it with externalities like most organized religion does.

Matt Collins
01-09-2008, 12:43 AM
Bump for relevence