Scottish Independence

[Pauls' Revere]

http://news.yahoo.com/uks-cameron-offers-talks-scottish-independence-vote-204732921.html


LONDON (Reuters) - British Prime Minister David Cameron offered on Sunday to hold talks with Scottish leader Alex Salmond to thrash out their differences over arrangements for a referendum on Scottish independence that could lead to a breakup of the United Kingdom.

His offer followed a day of manoeuvring between the government and Salmond's devolved Scottish administration as both sides competed for the high ground in an increasingly acrimonious debate over the future of the 300-year-old union between Scotland and England.

Salmond said this week he wanted to hold a referendum in late 2014 on breaking away from the rest of Britain, while Cameron has said it should be held sooner rather than later to dispel uncertainty he says is damaging the Scottish economy.

Cameron and all the main British parties want to keep the United Kingdom intact while Salmond's Scottish National Party (SNP) campaigns for Scottish independence.

Wonder what form of government the Scots would have and if they would welcome RP supporters?

[eduardo89]

Legally the referendum has no validity. The Scottish parliament was created by Westminster and given its devolved powers, meaning it can be scrapped at any moment by a vote in Westminster. Same goes for the Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies.

I personally don't want to see the United Kingdom dissolved, but do agree with devolution. I'd like to see the parliament in Westminster have much less power over local issues, with a stronger Scottish parliament and the establishment of stronger parliaments in Wales and Northern Ireland, as well as the establishment of an English parliament. Whether the English parliament is simply the MP's elected to Westminster representing English constituencies or a completely separate parliament is another matter. What needs to happen though is that England should have its own parliament and non-English MP's in Westminster should not have the ability to vote on purely English matters as English MP's don't have that power over any other of the constitutient countries.

[The_Ruffneck]

Scotland will be forced to adopt the Euro currency when they join as a separate nation.
Scotlands political decisions will be made more from Brussels than London.
Independence in this case is an illusion.

[moderate libertarian]

Very dangerous.

After Iraq anything is possible but this is like opening a can of very slippery freedom worms. Ireland world be next if Scotland got ind from UK.

Although UK neocons also contributed to intel that led to the biggest and most costly blunder in US history, this would be rather harsh punishment.

[Pauls' Revere]

Interesting, I'm unfamilar with the system setup in the United Kingdom. Seems that all parties would be better served if they voted for thier own constitutients and conversly to not vote in others. As an American I can't imagine one state and its citizens voting for another state's issues. For example, Florida voting for ballot measures in Montana? Is this a fair anaolgy?

[Karsten]

As someone with more than half Scottish ancestory I am all for it! I've been following this development for a year, and part of the reason they want independence is to detach themselves from the interventionist militarism of the UK. FREEDOM!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLrrBs8JBQo

[Karsten]

On a side note it's kind of interesting that, as Scotland is going to be voting on independence, Puerto Rico will be voting (on the general election day, 2012), whether to become independent (not likely), status quo, or to become the 51st state in the US. In both cases, the vote will be non-binding but political leaders have said they will follow the will of the voters.

[Inkblots]

Frankly, I think that both England and Scotland would be better off if the Union were dissolved. England's budget deficit and economy would be boosted by the cessation of transfer payments to north of the border (Scotland is essentially one giant welfare state supported by the Middle English taxpayer), and Scotland would receive the national pride and dignity necessary to turn around its social decay.

I don't think Scotland will be able to bestir itself from its malaise as long as its trapped in the Union. It's a sad fact that, even though shock therapy will likely liberalize its economy if it were to become independent, that independence will come about 300 years too late to really salvage the vitality of Scottish culture. England imposed a massively successful program of cultural extermination on the Highlanders and the Islanders following the Jacobite Uprising, and that entire culture has now disappeared in the wild.

[The_Ruffneck]

Politically speaking i can see why Labour wants to keep Scotland in the union , since Scotland always votes for Labour in greater numbers than Tory.
Can't see why Cameron wants to keep them in though.Does he fear NI and Wales also splintering off? If they want to just let them IMO.
What would be even better is if the city of London was itself seperated from the union so that the rest of the nation does not need to pay for the debts of the banks.
Take London out of the equation and the financial situation for the rest of the country would begin to look far brighter.

[eduardo89]

Interesting, I'm unfamilar with the system setup in the United Kingdom. Seems that all parties would be better served if they voted for thier own constitutients and conversly to not vote in others. As an American I can't imagine one state and its citizens voting for another state's issues. For example, Florida voting for ballot measures in Montana? Is this a fair anaolgy?

The way it works currently is like this:

There is a national parliament in London (commonly referred to the Westminster Parliament, since it's in a part of London called Westminster and th building itself is the Westminster Palace). This parliament is the supreme legislative body of the United Kingdom, sort of like the US Congress. However, since the UK isn't a federal state like the US and it's 4 constituent countries (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) are technically not separate states the Westminster Parliament can rule over them all and their respective national parliaments are the product of acts of the Westminster parliament. In the US each state's legislature is not dependent on an act of congress to exist.

So over the past two decades there's been a move towards devolution of powers. That's why the Westminster parliament created the Scottish Parliament and gave it certain powers, such as over healthcare, education, and various other "internal" matters. The military, foreign relations and other important powers of national interest are reserved to the parliament in London. Westminster also has the power to devolve more authority to the parliament in Scotland, or even scrap it all together.

The problem there is though is that while Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have their devolved parliament/assemblies, England does not. Every single constituent country sends members of parliament to Westminster, and Westminster legislates not only national laws, but laws specific to England. That means that the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have a say on matters that are purely English, whereas the English people don't get a say on those matters in the rest of the country.

It's sort of like Florida having its own state legislature and sending representatives to Washington who can then vote on Montana issues because Montana doesn't have it's own legislature, but the representative from Montana can't vote on Florida issues since those issues are voted locally in Florida and not in Washington.

[nano1895]

I read an article last year on the subject of Scottish Independence. There's a lot of people in support, in fact there was a vote/referendum or something on the issue and more than 50% voted for independence but it was nullified because you needed 50% total turnout. EX: if 50% of the popular vote goes to X candidate really only 25% of the country voted for him because US has ~50% turnout on election days.

[eduardo89]

Politically speaking i can see why Labour wants to keep Scotland in the union , since Scotland always votes for Labour in greater numbers than Tory.
Can't see why Cameron wants to keep them in though.Does he fear NI and Wales also splintering off? If they want to just let them IMO.
What would be even better is if the city of London was itself seperated from the union so that the rest of the nation does not need to pay for the debts of the banks.
Take London out of the equation and the financial situation for the rest of the country would begin to look far brighter.

Take out London and the UK loses almost 30% of its GDP (and 13% of its population).

[eduardo89]

I read an article last year on the subject of Scottish Independence. There's a lot of people in support, in fact there was a vote/referendum or something on the issue and more than 50% voted for independence but it was nullified because you needed 50% total turnout. EX: if 50% of the popular vote goes to X candidate really only 25% of the country voted for him because US has ~50% turnout on election days.

There hasn't been any referendum on Scottish independence yet, it's scheduled for 2014.

[The_Ruffneck]

Take out London and the UK loses almost 30% of its GDP (and 13% of its population).
Much of the GDP is banking ponzi.Did you see the article the other week saying that banking costs the UK 8 pounds for every 1 pound it produces?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/12/11/bankers-cost-each-one-of-us-8-40-for-every-1-they-produce-study-shows-115875-23626708/

[Pauls' Revere]

So, this is about representation or the lack thereof and the burden of transfer payments. Why does England want to maintain legislative influence over Scotland if Scotland has representaive power in Westminster?

[Paul Fan]

North sea oil.

Edit: Also, politicians like to be 'in charge' of more people so they feel more important. Interestingly, because of the welfare payments to Scotland, English people are more in favor of devolution than Scottish people are. http://m.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish_independence_referendum_greater_support_f or_independence_south_of_the_border_1_2058487

[eduardo89]

North sea oil.



North Sea oil is running out. Production peaked in 1985 and will only be 1/3rd of peak production in 2020. ~60% of known reserves have already been extracted.

[Paul Fan]

Just out of curiosity, why don't you favor UK breakup?

[John of Des Moines]

All the talk of Scottish Independence is just that - talk.

Question: Will the Queen still remain sovereign over an independent Scotland?

[Paul Fan]

The SNP aren't republican, so they aren't looking to get rid of her.

[GrahamUK]

Hmm Interesting stuff. I myself am from Scotland and its true that the majority of the nation does not favour Independence , I struggle to find anyone in my local area who does support this move. There are a few reasons for this but for me and many others the fact that Alex Salmond has already stated that an independant Scotland would go directly into the Euro-zone makes it an instant NO for me. I know the United Kingdom's economy is in dire straits but why leave a sinking ship for one thats already sunk? For most of us Scots its a heart vrs the head scenario were the appeal of being independant holds some romance and thoughts of a bygone era but in reality it doesn't make much sense for us now. We are such a small nation and have very little to offer the world in way of exporting and manufacturing that fueling an economy and funding our overweight wellfare state would break us..

[Paul Fan]

Scotland staying in the union just so it can keep taking welfare from England seems quite pathetic. And staying in because an independent Scotland might make the 'wrong' decisions is also pretty odd as it seems to suggest that English people are somehow better suited to make decisions for Scotland than Scottish people are. That is the same argument used against Ron Paul and following the Constitution (the states might make 'wrong' choices).

Question: would Salmond be able to take Scotland directly into the EU? or would there have to be another referendum? And if Scotland did join the EU, how would it get out again?

Edit: Welcome to Ron Paul Forums!

[GrahamUK]

I never said staying in the Union was about taking welfare from England ... Its not quite as extreme as that, we all as a nation pay into the UK treasury and its not just Scotland that has high unemployment, the north of England also suffers from high unemployment which is largly attributed to the Thatcher adminastration of the 80's since it was her that closed down alot of the industry and coal mining in those areas for cheaper oversea's labour. This is also why the Tory government does poorly in terms of votes in Scotland and northern England. Our industry was destroyed, Glasgow had one of the largest ship building yards in the world at one point and the more rural parts of the country helped supply the country with coal for domestic and industrial use, that work has all been sold away. All we have left is an ever decreasing supply of North Sea oil and whiskey exports .. What im saying i guess is that the UK is stronger as one rather than devided

As for the Euro referendum im not so sure what the ruling on that is but i know Salmond is and always has been pro EU and that to me isn't real independance and all we'd be doing is transfering power to Brussels and not taking responsibilty for ourselves..

If however Salmond was planning to build us on a simliar model to that of say Switzerland then I for one would be more willing to support it but not having the power to coin our own money is crazyness, if ive learned anything from listening to Dr Paul then its his finacial lessons

p's. Theres also the question of the United Kingdoms National debt to be resolved if we are to be independant we'll have a share of that to pay off. Westminster will not let us off 'Scot free' as it were. NOW, factor that into the debt we'll eventually create by joining the EU's debt paper ponzi scheme and you've got one hellavu mess...

But yeh what the hell!! FREEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM lol

[Lishy]

I'm a Quebecer, so I can kinda relate. Militarism is going too far these days, so we'd rather separate.

Course, being that we're also stuck in a common wealth country (Canada), I believe the royal family is just one big lala-fantasy, and people like Queen Elizabeth are born spoiled, and arrogant people. I think if I had a one on one talk with her, she would have an AWFUL personality! And To this day, I don't see what Queen Elizabeth II did sooooo amazing to us that we print herself on our money! Did she do ANYTHING for her people!?

It's really stupid in my opinion; A fantasy. So good luck separating to both of us!

[eduardo89]

Graham, to suggest the industrial demise of the industial UK is te fault of Thatcher and the Tories is completely wrong. The fact is British industry could not compete with the rest of the world and it came from decades of mismanagement by postwar governments, both Conservative and Labour. Britain after the Second World War became a socialist planned economy, it's per-capita output dropped while its labour costs soared, the cradle-to-grave welfare state required massive government spending, labour unions held great power, and the traditional industries of shipbuilding, coal mining and other heavy industry no longer made economic sense.

I think one of the biggest mistakes the UK has done is join the EU, which although has opened up Europe as a common market, has completely shut them off from their traditional Commonwealth trading partners, which is a much bigger market and has much more growth and potential than the crumbling continental European market.

[Paul Fan]

Graham, I was browsing and came across this post (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/2011/11/08/independent-scotland-eu/) which suggests that the question of the EU membership and the currency would be fairly open for Scotland to decide.

So freeeedommmm is the way to go!! Revolution...be a part of it!

[Cowlesy]

Will the future Charles III be the next Edward I? Somehow I doubt it.

Go Scotland!

[Paul Fan]

Lishy, do you know about this group (http://www.canadian-republic.ca/about.html)? It is interesting that they want a ceremonial head of state. Why not get rid of any 'head' and just have the elected government? Why are people so keen on the 'ceremonial' function of a 'head of state'?

[GrahamUK]

Graham, I was browsing and came across this post (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/2011/11/08/independent-scotland-eu/) which suggests that the question of the EU membership and the currency would be fairly open for Scotland to decide.

So freeeedommmm is the way to go!! Revolution...be a part of it!

Yeh its an interesting article but remember its prolly mostly propaganda to help persuade a rather unsure population to vote in favour ... Remember that the Pound Sterling is like the United States Dollar in that they are both nothing more than debt paper currency.. So if we did leave the Union and kept the Pound how free are we? For me we have to be looking at coining our money and building a properous economy of our own if we're to have even half a chance... The other options would mean nothing more than us being a nation of Serf's and the only question would be to which master. England or Brussels ?

[Pauls' Revere]

All the talk of Scottish Independence is just that - talk.

Question: Will the Queen still remain sovereign over an independent Scotland?

isn't that an oxymoron.

[GrahamUK]

If the we left the United Kingdom then id imagine she'd still be the sovereign much the same way as she is with Canada and Austarlia. Remember that the United Kingdom is a democracy and the Royal family don't have a say in making policy..

[Paul Fan]

Well there is no way the UK will go back to gold as long as they are being bailed out by the Fed. An independent Scotland might. Maybe not right away, but there is a better chance. If Dr. Paul wins then maybe he will set an example!

[Pauls' Revere]

A long article but worth the read.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2012/01/independence-debate-scotland-0

For instance, a big important question about Scottish independence concerns the new country's currency. Mr Salmond used to want to join the euro as soon as possible. He has gone a bit quiet about this (funnily enough). So at least for a while, his new Scotland would use the pound. That inspires alarm in some quarters, as people wonder if it is really wise to reproduce, via a new currency union of Scotland and England, the same wizard-wheeze that lies at the heart of the euro-crisis, namely a monetary union without a political and fiscal union over the top. I put this to Mr Salmond.

Oh not at all, he said. The fundamental problem of the euro is about uniting wildly diverging economies, with very different levels of competitiveness: countries like Greece and Germany. Scotland and England are very similar, even if (twinkle, twinkle) Scotland is more competitive by some measures.

Hmm, I said. Are we not now living in a world that has learned a bitter lesson from the euro crisis, so that bond traders are much less likely to take things like sovereign creditworthiness on trust, and are much more sceptical about breezy assurances that economies are jolly similar?

Ah, the euro is just a bad comparison, he continued. A better analogy is Belgium and Luxembourg, and their currency union before the euro.

Hmm, I thought (for I am a sad geek of an ex-foreign correspondent who once covered the Luxembourg referendum on the ill-fated EU constitution, and interviewed various Luxembourgeois about their views of currency union, who told me how humiliating it had been in the days when the Luxembourg franc was basically the Belgian franc in drag and Luxembourg had no monetary independence at all). Hmm, I said, expressing some of that out loud, are you sure Scots would accept such limited monetary independence?

Mr Salmond was off, dancing and diving, explaining how much more credit-worthy Scotland would be, how modest its stocks of debt, and how restrained its borrowing. Well, hang on, I said, in this suspicious new world, assurances of fiscal rigour are out of fashion. Over in euro-land, people want binding debt brakes written into constitutions, and deficit rules policed by supranational judges. Would an independent Scotland accept legally binding debt and deficit rules as the price of sharing sterling?

"I'm in favour of a stability pact," Mr Salmond said. What does that mean, I asked. Binding rules? The first minister was off again, explaining how an England-Scotland monetary union was not like the euro, and how the great advantage of holding a referendum meant that after a clear vote, Scotland and England would be negotiating in an atmosphere of goodwill. Pushed one last time, he delivered the gnomic pledge: "We'd negotiate a stability pact appropriate for the circumstances."

Another big, tricky question is what to do about defence policy in the event of a break-up. Would Scotland leave NATO, I asked? Ah, replied Mr Salmond happily. SNP policy is that Scotland would not be in the command structures of NATO. That means it would be like Sweden or Ireland.

[GrahamUK]

A long article but worth the read.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2012/01/independence-debate-scotland-0

For instance, a big important question about Scottish independence concerns the new country's currency. Mr Salmond used to want to join the euro as soon as possible. He has gone a bit quiet about this (funnily enough). So at least for a while, his new Scotland would use the pound. That inspires alarm in some quarters, as people wonder if it is really wise to reproduce, via a new currency union of Scotland and England, the same wizard-wheeze that lies at the heart of the euro-crisis, namely a monetary union without a political and fiscal union over the top. I put this to Mr Salmond.

Oh not at all, he said. The fundamental problem of the euro is about uniting wildly diverging economies, with very different levels of competitiveness: countries like Greece and Germany. Scotland and England are very similar, even if (twinkle, twinkle) Scotland is more competitive by some measures.

Hmm, I said. Are we not now living in a world that has learned a bitter lesson from the euro crisis, so that bond traders are much less likely to take things like sovereign creditworthiness on trust, and are much more sceptical about breezy assurances that economies are jolly similar?

Ah, the euro is just a bad comparison, he continued. A better analogy is Belgium and Luxembourg, and their currency union before the euro.

Hmm, I thought (for I am a sad geek of an ex-foreign correspondent who once covered the Luxembourg referendum on the ill-fated EU constitution, and interviewed various Luxembourgeois about their views of currency union, who told me how humiliating it had been in the days when the Luxembourg franc was basically the Belgian franc in drag and Luxembourg had no monetary independence at all). Hmm, I said, expressing some of that out loud, are you sure Scots would accept such limited monetary independence?

Mr Salmond was off, dancing and diving, explaining how much more credit-worthy Scotland would be, how modest its stocks of debt, and how restrained its borrowing. Well, hang on, I said, in this suspicious new world, assurances of fiscal rigour are out of fashion. Over in euro-land, people want binding debt brakes written into constitutions, and deficit rules policed by supranational judges. Would an independent Scotland accept legally binding debt and deficit rules as the price of sharing sterling?

"I'm in favour of a stability pact," Mr Salmond said. What does that mean, I asked. Binding rules? The first minister was off again, explaining how an England-Scotland monetary union was not like the euro, and how the great advantage of holding a referendum meant that after a clear vote, Scotland and England would be negotiating in an atmosphere of goodwill. Pushed one last time, he delivered the gnomic pledge: "We'd negotiate a stability pact appropriate for the circumstances."

Another big, tricky question is what to do about defence policy in the event of a break-up. Would Scotland leave NATO, I asked? Ah, replied Mr Salmond happily. SNP policy is that Scotland would not be in the command structures of NATO. That means it would be like Sweden or Ireland.


Yeh so after reading all that and perhaps having some experience of this man and his politics should almost certainly show hes in no position to run an independant Scotland... He doesn't even understand the importance of monetary policy. Or, he's just as crafty as every other politician and good at dodging questions while trying to work his agenda.. Which i might add is forcing Scotland to accept the Euro as its currency and although to some glory seeking Scots he may become the man who delivered the nations independance but at what cost? and what sort of independance would that be?

At the end of the day hes already led a devolved government with a fairly decent success but its only devolved, hes not handling issues of taxation or monetary policy and nor will he ever have to since we'd be off to Euro-Land on the first bus... So hes not really gona be leading an independant Scotland but more like managing a company under new owners...

[Lishy]

Lishy, do you know about this group (http://www.canadian-republic.ca/about.html)? It is interesting that they want a ceremonial head of state. Why not get rid of any 'head' and just have the elected government? Why are people so keen on the 'ceremonial' function of a 'head of state'?
It's interesting to note that no one in Quebec I've met actually likes the royal family. In fact, according to thestar, 54% of people aged 18 and 34 throughout ALL OF CANADA don't even care about the visit at all!

Quite the contrary, here in Quebec we're actually mad OUR TAX DOLLARS was wasted on THEIR vacation in Canada! Why the hell did I have to pay for them to put flowers and ribbons inside a hospital TOILET for Kate to use!? What, is Kate so damn spoiled she can't use a normal toilet like everyone else!? Not only that, but their visit essentially blocked anyone from entering the hospital they were visiting. Some of us had EMERGENCIES!

But we also had to pay for their cooking lessons here after too? The Duke and Duchess' of Cambridge are RICH! Why the heck do we have to waste OUR money for something stupid like cooking lessons!? It's just stupid!

The money used to fund their ridiculous vacation could have been used on a million other things! In the city of Montreal for example, couldn't we have used the wasted money on something like improving or sewage situation, or fixing potholes instead?

Having an unelected Head of State is also dangerous because she could dissolve our parliament if she didn't like something we did, or involve us in a war. By all means, a ceremonial position is nice, but why waste the tax dollars we do, and why give her real power?

[eduardo89]

It's interesting to note that no one in Quebec I've met actually likes the royal family. In fact, according to thestar, 54% of people aged 18 and 34 throughout ALL OF CANADA don't even care about the visit at all!

Quite the contrary, here in Quebec we're actually mad OUR TAX DOLLARS was wasted on THEIR vacation in Canada! Why the hell did I have to pay for them to put flowers and ribbons inside a hospital TOILET for Kate to use!? What, is Kate so damn spoiled she can't use a normal toilet like everyone else!? Not only that, but their visit essentially blocked anyone from entering the hospital they visited normally. Some of us had EMERGENCIES!

But we also had to pay for their cooking lessons here after too? The Duke and Duchess' of Cambridge are RICH! Why the heck do we have to waste OUR money for something stupid like cooking lessons!? It's just stupid!

The money used to fund their ridiculous vacation could have been used on a million other things! In the city of Montreal for example, couldn't we have used the wasted money on something like improving or sewage situation, or fixing potholes instead?

I don't think anyone in Canada in general cares much for the royal family, but republicanism isn't widespread. There just seems I be an apathy towards both the monarchy, but also towards abolishing it.

I agree with the outrage on spending taxpayer dollars on a royal visit, but in the grand scheme of things it's a drop in the bucket and there are much more pressing issues for Quebecers and Canadians to worry about, such as privatizing healthcare, getting out of Afghanistan, lowering taxes and reforming immigration.

I personally wouldn't like Quebec to split off from the rest of the country, but if the people of Quebec (and remember, it's not just francophones who live there) decide they want more autonomy, I have no problem with that.

[bluesc]

This will suck balls for me considering I'm probably going there to study, but on the other hand, I do love freedom and independence.

[eduardo89]

This will suck balls for me considering I'm probably going there to study, but on the other hand, I do love freedom and independence.

Where are you going to study?

Don't worry about this though, Scottish independence is a pipe dream for a minority. It's not going to happen.

[GrahamUK]

Don't worry about this though, Scottish independence is a pipe dream for a minority. It's not going to happen.

Speaking as someone who's lived in Scotland all his life this statement is 100% fact... No-one really wants it sept a minority and even then the great Alex Salmond, Champion of freedom has not even to this date told the Scottish people what his plan for independance will actually envolve, yet his party and its whole reason for being have campaigned on the back of it for as far back as i can recall. (only reason hes inpower in my mind is due to the freeze on some tax rises hes made and free doctors prescriptions).

Q. Should Scotland gain independance from the UK?
A. NO


Also, although i consider myself a loyalist and in favour of my Monarchy i don't believe it is fair for folks in the likes of Canada to pay for Royal visits :)

[bluesc]

Where are you going to study?

Don't worry about this though, Scottish independence is a pipe dream for a minority. It's not going to happen.

Politics and International Relations.

There is a lot of talk about it. If it did happen there are two outcomes - Scotland as an independent state joins the EU and my education becomes free, or they don't and I pay international student fees.

What sucks is that my tax money right now subsidizes EU student fees in Scotland so they can study for free, while non-Scottish UK residents have to pay the full UK mandated maximum, while I also subsidize the Scottish people so they can have free university education there too.

The whole system is backwards. If they don't get independence, at least give them a separate budget which would force them to move towards a more capitalistic approach.

[eduardo89]

Politics and International Relations.

There is a lot of talk about it. If it did happen there are two outcomes - Scotland as an independent state joins the EU and my education becomes free, or they don't and I pay international student fees.

What sucks is that my tax money right now subsidizes EU student fees in Scotland so they can study for free, while non-Scottish UK residents have to pay the full UK mandated maximum, while I also subsidize the Scottish people so they can have free university education there too.

The whole system is backwards. If they don't get independence, at least give them a separate budget which would force them to move towards a more capitalistic approach.

I'm also doing Politics and International Relations, but as an external degree with the London School of Economics (doing it as a second degree while I finish my current one). What university are you going to?

And why would university be free if they join the EU? There's no mandate for EU countries to provide free university. I'm at a public university here in Spain and I pay, although I'm not a citizen yet, but my brother is and it's not free for him either.

The full rate in the UK isn't that much though, although it has gone up a lot since last year, but it's still about 1/3rd the price of university in the US. I remember when I was at a private university in London, THAT was expensive.

[eduardo89]

Speaking as someone who's lived in Scotland all his life this statement is 100% fact... No-one really wants it sept a minority and even then the great Alex Salmond, Champion of freedom has not even to this date told the Scottish people what his plan for independance will actually envolve, yet his party and its whole reason for being have campaigned on the back of it for as far back as i can recall. (only reason hes inpower in my mind is due to the freeze on some tax rises hes made and free doctors prescriptions).

Q. Should Scotland gain independance from the UK?
A. NO


Also, although i consider myself a loyalist and in favour of my Monarchy i don't believe it is fair for folks in the likes of Canada to pay for Royal visits :)

I went to boarding school in Scotland and that's the same impression I got. Then again I went to quite a loyalist school (The Duke of Edinburg and Prince Charles went to my school), but in general there isn't that much support for full independence, although there is a lot of rhetoric. It's just not going to happen, we'll see when it comes to the referendum, but I doubt it will pass and if it does it will be due to extremely low turnout.

[bluesc]

I'm also doing Politics and International Relations, but as an external degree with the London School of Economics (doing it as a second degree while I finish my current one). What university are you going to?

And why would university be free if they join the EU? There's no mandate for EU countries to provide free university. I'm at a public university here in Spain and I pay, although I'm not a citizen yet, but my brother is and it's not free for him either.

The full rate in the UK isn't that much though, although it has gone up a lot since last year, but it's still about 1/3rd the price of university in the US. I remember when I was at a private university in London, THAT was expensive.

From LSE? That's where I plan to apply to do my Masters. I should be going to Aberdeen unless I run into some ridiculously bad luck in the next month.

The Scottish government covers non-UK EU fees through the SAAS. They were worried about the English flooding their universities, so they raised the fees, only to go on to offer a free ride for the rest of the EU. Now, for example, over 40% of undergrad students at Aberdeen are not from the UK.

Well I can expect the full rate wherever I go, that's no problem, I just object to paying for Polish students to graduate while I also have to pay for myself to do it :p.

How many degrees do you have :eek:?

[eduardo89]

From LSE? That's where I plan to apply to do my Masters. I should be going to Aberdeen unless I run into some ridiculously bad luck in the next month.

The Scottish government covers non-UK EU fees through the SAAS. They were worried about the English flooding their universities, so they raised the fees, only to go on to offer a free ride for the rest of the EU. Now, for example, over 40% of undergrad students at Aberdeen are not from the UK.

Well I can expect the full rate wherever I go, that's no problem, I just object to paying for Polish students to graduate while I also have to pay for myself to do it :p.

How many degrees do you have :eek:?

I'm planning of applying to LSE for my masters too, maybe we'll see each other there lol. I had no idea you're English though.

I'm going to have 3 degrees by next year :p I'm doing a dual-degree program right now (BBA+LLB) and doing a BSc Politics and International Relations on the side for fun. It's a lot of work, (especially because I also have a kid to take care of) but its been a lot of fun.

I have a few friends studying in Aberdeen, they like it. It's not somewhere I would have ever chosen to go to myself...horrible weather and Scotland just depresses me haha. I was at boarding school in Scotland and I didn't like it a lot so that's probably why I wouldn't study there. You'll surelu enjoy it though once you get a good group of friends, and Aberdeen airport is surprisingly well connected to the rest of Europe, so if you have the time/money to travel take advantage of that.

[bluesc]

I'm planning of applying to LSE for my masters too, maybe we'll see each other there lol. I had no idea you're English though.

I'm going to have 3 degrees by next year :p I'm doing a dual-degree program right now (BBA+LLB) and doing a BSc Politics and International Relations on the side for fun. It's a lot of work, (especially because I also have a kid to take care of) but its been a lot of fun.

I have a few friends studying in Aberdeen, they like it. It's not somewhere I would have ever chosen to go to myself...horrible weather and Scotland just depresses me haha. I was at boarding school in Scotland and I didn't like it a lot so that's probably why I wouldn't study there. You'll surelu enjoy it though once you get a good group of friends, and Aberdeen airport is surprisingly well connected to the rest of Europe, so if you have the time/money to travel take advantage of that.

Yeah, if I manage to gain entry :p. Yep, I have a lot of family in the US, which is why I concentrate on US politics so much.

You're probably going to be the most employable person on the planet. Get a Masters at LSE and I could imagine you as an ambassador or something :p.

I like the idea of Aberdeen for the same reasons you hate it. I like the weather, and specifically Aberdeen because it's near the mountains and has a huge snowboarding student association, and that well connected airport means they travel all over Europe for snowboarding trips. Also for the surfing. Another good reason is because of all of the international students there. It's great to network and make contacts, since I have no intention of staying in the UK forever.

[LibForestPaul]

not sure why, but English nationalism makes me lol.

[Shotdown1027]

As far as Scotland is concerned, I'm in favor of independence.

But more importantly--HAIL HAIL! GO CELTIC!

[GrahamUK]

As far as Scotland is concerned, I'm in favor of independence.

But more importantly--HAIL HAIL! GO CELTIC!

Hahaha thats just bloody typical small mindedness from a moniority... All for Independance but you feel declaring your love of a football team more important... lmao thats just insane... Have fun with your over inflated Euro Dollars and massive price incereases for everyday goods, O and btw if it does all go wrong like it has in Ireland do YOU think England will bail us out like the UK has had to do in Irelands case after rejecting Westminster?

Look Bro-ham, at least look into the practical reasons and weigh up the pros and cons...

[heavenlyboy34]

not sure why, but English nationalism makes me lol. All Nationalism makes me rofl :D

[The_Ruffneck]

Hahaha thats just bloody typical small mindedness from a moniority... All for Independance but you feel declaring your love of a football team more important... lmao thats just insane... Have fun with your over inflated Euro Dollars and massive price incereases for everyday goods, O and btw if it does all go wrong like it has in Ireland do YOU think England will bail us out like the UK has had to do in Irelands case after rejecting Westminster?

Look Bro-ham, at least look into the practical reasons and weigh up the pros and cons...
Yup , i'm from the UK and would whole heartedly support Scottish independence but the fact remains if all they are doing is shifting rule of Scotland from London to Brussels and switching to the Euro fact is they will have LESS independence....If Salmond set the record straight and stated he would keep the pound with the option to later moving towards a floating currency for Scotland whilst at the same time moving away from the EU beaurocrats he would recieve whole hearted support for his referendum plan.

[Shotdown1027]

Hahaha thats just bloody typical small mindedness from a moniority... All for Independance but you feel declaring your love of a football team more important... lmao thats just insane... Have fun with your over inflated Euro Dollars and massive price incereases for everyday goods, O and btw if it does all go wrong like it has in Ireland do YOU think England will bail us out like the UK has had to do in Irelands case after rejecting Westminster?

Look Bro-ham, at least look into the practical reasons and weigh up the pros and cons...

It was a joke Broseph :P. Just some light-hearted fun. I'm from America and I'm not Scottish--so I've got no bone to pick. I'd like to see an independent Scotland regardless of the economic situation (Though I think it would benefit them to not live in a welfare state--handling their own finances would encourage them to stop this welfarism) because I think too much of Scottish culture has been subsumed by the English culture.

And what makes you think I'm a minority?

[Paul Fan]

Graham, I'm genuinely interested - how do you reconcile support for the monarchy with support for equal rights? The Canada republic site I posted earlier explains how the monarchy violates gender equality, religious equality, equal
opportunity, etc.

[GrahamUK]

Graham, I'm genuinely interested - how do you reconcile support for the monarchy with support for equal rights? The Canada republic site I posted earlier explains how the monarchy violates gender equality, religious equality, equal
opportunity, etc.

The rules of succession were changed this year giving equal oppertunity to females in the royal line, This now also applies to Catholics as of this year and royals are now permitted to marry persons of that faith again... The royal family, remember, hold no powers of government in Britain and are merely head of state and comonwealth countries.. They do alot of good work within charities and also bring in alot of tourism to the United Kingdom... IF they still held power and we lived in a country RULED by a monarchy rather than a democratic parliament then id have issues...

The Scotland issue and independance isn't really independance if we're just gona default right into the eurozone and hand the powers of westminster to a bunch of people in Europe. I've already stated id support an independant Scotland if we were gona perhaps model ourselves on Switzerland and be truely our own nation handling our own monetary policy and keeping the hell out of all these crazy conflicts that do nothing more than serve the rich and special interests. I'd like to see us have a go at it ourselves, I truely would, but joining the eurozone is madness imo, look at the state of it, look at the mess the smaller member nations are in. Greece, Italy and Ireland to name a few are all in trouble and these nations are all on the periphery of the EU, that is were Scotland will be aswell so its not hard to see that after a few years and the intial money awarded by the EU for joining is spent that we'd be up the creek w/o a paddle too. Again, i'd love to see us have a go at true independance but joining the EU means more wars and more debt and less freedom...

[Paul Fan]

Graham, I missed that change and it looks like the Canadians did too.

Actually, just checked and it looks like Catholics are still not allowed to become 'monarch'. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15492607 Also, no one can become 'monarch' unless they are born a Windsor. So that isn't really equal opportunity.

By the way, I found this article when I was looking into the Catholic thing. Did you know that the Queen and also Prince Charles have the power to veto bills they don't like? http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/30/prince-charles-offered-veto-legislation

[GrahamUK]

Hmm, I did not know that the prince had power of veto. I don't think that many will be aware of this, if he is able to influence parliament then thats rather disturbing quite frankly

[Paul Fan]

Yeah, I was surprised too since several people had told me they had no power. I guess they try to keep it quiet so people don't get annoyed and try to stop them having this power.

[Paul Fan]

Sorry I took this thread off-track. Getting back to Scotland, Murray Rothbard said that "national liberation is the only solution to the great world problems of territorial disputes and oppressive national rule. Yet all too many anarchists and libertarians mistakenly scorn the idea of national liberation and independence as simply setting up more nation-states; they tragically do not realize that, taking this stand, they become in the concrete, objective supporters of the bloated, imperialistic nation-states of today." (Lib Forum vol I, no XI, Sep 1, 1969.)

Rothbard goes on, after postulating a hypothetical Walldavia that has been occupied by another country, to say that "The fact that we might not agree with the Walldavian rebels on all philosophical or political points is irrelevant. ... If [nationalism] is aggressive, we should oppose it, if liberatory we should favor it."

This makes sense to me. Scottish nationalism is liberatory; and the UK is imperialistic and warmongering. So libertarians should whole-heartedly support Scottish independence, even if the SNP doesn't (yet) have a sound monetary policy, because independence is a step in the right direction.

[GrahamUK]

That's OK it happens lol I've been following the discussion here but atm its mostly just a lot of political to'ing and fro'ing.. Alex Salmond was on TV today and made some interesting points, which this article details:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/alex-salmond-wants-equal-relationship-6293035.html

To me its an interesting idea... Like yesterday hes talking about Scotland having a small, non-nuclear based defence force (i'm all for this btw). He's also not talking about the Euro-zone as far as i can tell...

Still tho for me it has to be beneficial. We have to get off debt paper money, and I'd like to see us work toward having free market economics... We have a fair bit of oil and we also have a large refinery (largest in the UK) so we can pump our own oil and produce our own petrol... Switzerland works as a small independant nation state and Hong-Kong has been a beacon of the free market for decades now...

[Paul Fan]

Interesting article. It is a good sign that Salmond doesn't want to join the Euro; it means that there is a chance that Scotland could adopt a sensible monetary policy once it became independent.

In fact, an independent Scotland would not be dominated by the bankers in the City, so maybe it would have a much better chance of a sensible monetary policy? The City bankers will oppose that fiercely as they are the main beneficiaries of the inflationary policies and central bank fiddles. So dumping the City, in favor of commodities like oil, puts Scotland in a much better place to be able to fix its money. (How powerful are the bankers in Edinburgh?)

If Scotland also adopted sensible tax policies, it could very well become another Switzerland or Hong Kong.

[heavenlyboy34]

I'm planning of applying to LSE for my masters too, maybe we'll see each other there lol. I had no idea you're English though.

I'm going to have 3 degrees by next year :p I'm doing a dual-degree program right now (BBA+LLB) and doing a BSc Politics and International Relations on the side for fun. It's a lot of work, (especially because I also have a kid to take care of) but its been a lot of fun.

I have a few friends studying in Aberdeen, they like it. It's not somewhere I would have ever chosen to go to myself...horrible weather and Scotland just depresses me haha. I was at boarding school in Scotland and I didn't like it a lot so that's probably why I wouldn't study there. You'll surelu enjoy it though once you get a good group of friends, and Aberdeen airport is surprisingly well connected to the rest of Europe, so if you have the time/money to travel take advantage of that.
Congrats on the useless degrees. ;) :D

[onlyrp]

Scottish Independence? Is that coming before Irish United, Kurdistan independence, Palestine recognized?

[GrahamUK]

Scottish Independence? Is that coming before Irish United, Kurdistan independence, Palestine recognized?

Don't know about the other countries but you can't have a United Ireland as you put it when 80% of the population in the north don't support and have infact voted agaisnt it fairly recently...Its a romantic DREAM and pure fantasy unless those people suddenly change their mind over night, which i very much doubt since religion is the key factor :P

[Paul Fan]

Here's an article about Kurdistan independence. http://kurdistantribune.com/2011/kurdistan-its-not-independence-but-oil-revenues-stupid/

Looks like they face some similar issues to Scotland - should they go independent based on oil, or stay connected in hope of keeping a more generous welfare state. The big difference is that Kurdistan really does have to worry about security, while my guess is that Scotland doesn't.

[eduardo89]

Here's an article about Kurdistan independence. http://kurdistantribune.com/2011/kurdistan-its-not-independence-but-oil-revenues-stupid/

Looks like they face some similar issues to Scotland - should they go independent based on oil, or stay connected in hope of keeping a more generous welfare state. The big difference is that Kurdistan really does have to worry about security, while my guess is that Scotland doesn't.

Kurdistan also covers at least 4 countries: Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria.

[Paul Fan]

Getting back to Scotland, here is a very good article that I think captures why independence (or devo max) is a good idea. It isn'tthat Scotland will adopt sensible policies as part of the process of becoming independent, but rather that once Scotland is independent, reality will induce it to adopt better policies. http://www.thecommentator.com/article/838/leaving_the_politics_aside_scotland_deserves_freed om