HK clones?

[1000-points-of-fright]

So I'm thinking of getting an evil black rifle for 3 reasons...1) I want one, 2) If Hillary wins they'll be banned, 3) it'll come in handy when the shit eventually hits the fan.

Under-folding AKs and the Robinson XCR side-folder are cool, but the HK retractable stock is just bad ass. Anyone have experience with the Vectors or the PTR91 HK clones?

[vis-à-vis]

So I'm thinking of getting an evil black rifle for 3 reasons...1) I want one, 2) If Hillary wins they'll be banned, 3) it'll come in handy when the shit eventually hits the fan.

Under-folding AKs and the Robinson XCR side-folder are cool, but the HK retractable stock is just bad ass. Anyone have experience with the Vectors or the PTR91 HK clones?

Nice. There are rumors floating around the Supreme Court is about to majorly disappoint the anti-gun crowd come Tuesday!

check out the Professional Arms MK5 coming out in June 2008! That's what I am getting.

http://www.professional-arms.com/

[Dequeant]

I'm also planning on buying an AR before the election for that purpose. Also will do you well to buy up lots of AMMO since they've tried to heavily tax and regulate ammo before in a way to get around the 2nd amendment. It didn't work then, but hillary wasn't president then either.

Besides.......with global warming, a near inevitable failure of the U.S. government, plus an uncontrollable influx of violent illegals......we'll need all the guns we can get.

Once the dollar fails, ammo becomes currency.

[jdmac44]

I have a PTR-91, it's a great rifle and arguably the best HK91 clone around, some even say it's better than the original HK since it was made on HK licensed tooling from the blue prints with improvements. But I'm actually planning on switching to a DSA SA-58 (a FAL clone), imo they are the standard by which all others are measured.

To give you and idea, take a look at one of the magazine articles posted on their site, a 10,000 round torture test. http://www.dsarms.com/magazine_articles.asp No failures (okay one but it was an easy fix) The HK roller lock design has issues, one thing that made me nervous about it is the fact that the roller wear down and you have to replace them after awhile and eventually you can't replace them anymore, you have to replace the rifle.

Also, while PTR did a good job with the actually metal parts of the rifle, the furniture leaves much to be desired, very cheap plastic stock. Which for a range queen is no big deal, but think about if the SHTF and you actually have to use it and your stock gets broken and you can't replace it, kind of hard to sight in properly.

Speaking of sights, the PTR has decent ones, but it cannot be adjusted for windage on the fly and has no click-in for exact measurements. It's pretty much meant to be set as a battle sight zero and left there. The SA-58 has a better stock sight and for extra you can get a click adjustable type just like the AR/M-16 design rear sight. Don't know how much you'd actually use windage adjustment in a firefight, but I was in the Marine Corps and they taught it to us and so it's kind of important to me. One good reason to have windage adjustment is if you change ammunition types that will change your point of impact/zero.

If you really want a rifle that's going to see you through thick and thin, I would spend the extra money and get the SA-58 (you can get the cheaper STG-58, but it's made from surplus Austrian parts with the non-heat treated receiver, so not as durable/reliable, the torture test doesn't apply) The HK is sexier (FAL is UGLY) but pretty is as pretty does. Oh yeah and the PTR uses a heavy bull target barrel that really makes it front heavy, which would become a real pain patrolling and lugging it around in a real combat type scenario.

[Mauiboy86]

The next Gun Show is at the Charleston Exchange Fairground November 24 and 25th. Bring some brochures and help introduce Ron Paul to gun owners.

[1000-points-of-fright]

check out the Professional Arms MK5 coming out in June 2008! That's what I am getting.

http://www.professional-arms.com/

The MK5 looks cool, but I wish it came in a rifle caliber. Someone should make a rifle with everything I want on it. Rifle caliber, built in rails, switchable threaded barrels like the Robinson XCR and a collapsible stock like the HK91.

Of course, this is what I would really want if it cam in a civilian model... HK MP7A1 (http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/le_mp7a1_general.html)

[RedHawk]

I recommend the PTR-91 over the FAL. Yes the stock furniture is junk but it's easy to replace it with original HK parts. As far as replacing rollers; very easy. The rollers basically determine headspace. Check the headspace every thousand rounds or so, you should do this with other rifle types as well. A PTR/HK-91 will last a lifetime.

Accuracy is another matter. The PTR has a well deserved reputation for being very accurate; not so for DSA.

After saying all that, my personal ranking for 7.62 NATO semi-autos.

1. AR-10, most accurate and ergonomic, best optics platform
2. PTR-91, it isn't great at anything, but good at everything
3. M14 clone, fine rifles, my LRB M14SA is a rifle I treasure
4. DSA FAL, once again, good but not great. more of a personal bias than anything.

I own each rifle listed, well, I sold the FAL last year. If at all possible go to a range and try them out. Your list might look totally different from mine.
Lastly, I cannot state strongly enough THE HK COLLAPSIBLE STOCK IS TORTURIOUS TO SHOOT WITH.

[jdmac44]

yes changing rollers is easy, but each roller is larger and eventually you can't go any larger.

[Richard in Austin]

A few considerations to throw into the mix:
- cost of ammo - .308 has gone up considerably. 7.62x39 is less expensive
- reliability - the AKs and HKs are great in this regard
- availability and cost of spare parts and accessories - HK parts and accessories are expensive
- ergonomics - try and handle one of each at a gun show if you can

[conner_condor]

A few considerations to throw into the mix:
- cost of ammo - .308 has gone up considerably. 7.62x39 is less expensive
- reliability - the AKs and HKs are great in this regard
- availability and cost of spare parts and accessories - HK parts and accessories are expensive
- ergonomics - try and handle one of each at a gun show if you can


You have to think of range and penatration also. I would opt for the 308 when you consider the body armor that is worn. If you can get steel jacket bullets then it wouldn't be bad for the smaller calibers. But you have to know the connections to get that ammo I have to say. Ruger is a nice alternative. High capacity clips and cosmetics at a better price I have to say. Quite durable to take abuse of what one would encounter in the outdoors and what mother nature dishes out.

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FASubType?type=Rifle&subtype=Autoloading

[jarmoore]

Another +1 to the PTR-91. I've had mine for over a year and couldn't be happier. The only downside I can think of is the cost of surplus 7.62x51mm/.308 ... I was lucky to find some South African still on the net last year (750 rounds).

[mordechai]

I keep on hearing those PTRs are the way to go.