A Reader Writes to Andrew Sullivan

[AlienLanes82]

From AndrewSullivan.com:

A reader writes:

Andrew, I'm going to hurl if you don't get off this Ron Paul bandwagon. Aside from the fact he's a whackjob on economic issues, and hopelessly naiive on foreign policy, he is surrounded by really serious hate groups. Visit David Dukes site or the Stormfront site and note the RP columns and endorsements. This isn't some innocent eccentric Congressman riding a popular wave, it is tapping into a very sinister side of the US electorate.

Try to engage the Paulistas on any subject and within 5 minutes they are talking about international bankers, the Trilateral Commission and the CFR. And if you encourage them just a little they'll be talking about the Jews and their control of the US government, and before you know it they're off to the races. Freemasons, Illuminati, the guy on the grassy knoll…..its all there.

I fear you are letting Paul's (ignorant and unreasoned) opposition to the war make you a cheerleader based on the "my enemy's enemy is my friend" theory. He is not your friend, not a friend of this country.

[0zzy]

I don't.

Though many activist on this forum does.

Guys:
No more conspiracy theories, anti-Semite, etc.
No more cussing and name calling, especially at journalist.

When you want to debate with someone, just use facts. There's nothing else you can do. Say why you support him, say the facts. No name calling, no cussing, be proper.

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I'd like that person's address

[constituent]

what a maroon.

i'd like that reader to come engage any number of folks around here for five minutes... that'd be a blast!

[Mark Rushmore]

No more conspiracy theories... just use facts.

Do you have a link to the site that lists what's a conspiracy and what's a fact?

[AlienLanes82]

I thought it might be a good thing to post to show how some people perceive us.

[constituent]

I thought it might be a good thing to post to show how some people perceive us.

i think we're all aware of that perception... what it seems like you're attempting to do (on your what, 9th post?) is stir up the s*pot.

furthermore, i get a funny feeling that you know that (what, with so precious little time).

[Shink]

Blissful ignorance.

[thegearbox]

So what is the CFR then? A bunch of libertatians? Come on, people who choose to ignore these things that are going on behind the scenes are just dillusional. It is real, it is happening, and people just choose to ignore it. One only has to look up things like "CFR" and the Federal Reserve to know better.

[V4Vendetta]

I'd like that person's address

So would I

[murrayrothbard]

So what is the CFR then? A bunch of libertatians? Come on, people who choose to ignore these things that are going on behind the scenes are just dillusional. It is real, it is happening, and people just choose to ignore it. One only has to look up things like "CFR" and the Federal Reserve to know better.

No shit. It's not like the CFR is some made up thing. Damn, they have a website. Go read it. And yes, there really is a FED. Yes, it is a really BAD thing. It doesn't even require some elaborate conspiracy. Look at what it does. Study it. It is a horrible institution. Whether or not it was setup on purpose for nefarious ends is irrelevant.

[constituent]

I'd like that person's address

I think this individual registering as a forum member and identifying his or herself would suffice.

[adpierce]

The guy writing to Andrew Sullivan is promoting a stereotype of the typical Ron Paul supporter. He hasn't accurately described me. However he points out what I like to think of as a somewhat accurate stereotype. We use stereotypes to some degree or another. All stereotypes are generalizations... and if they're a good generalization they're useful for referring to a group of people as something or other. You marginalize the individual, like me in this example, but people do it. I do unfortunately think the letter here isn't a bad generalization. Sad but true. Lots of RP supporters are conspiracy theorists. The demographic needs to change for Ron Paul to get elected. Most people don't believe in conspiracies, and please don't help this stereotype along if you even remotely fit into this stereotype mentioned in this letter. We want as little things getting in the way of people supporting Ron Paul as possible. His ideas are controversial enough on their own. They require a paradigm shift in an of themselves, if people are thinking his supporters are whack jobs that's not helping Dr. Paul whatsoever.

[angelatc]

Andrew Sullivan is one of us. He's just making a point about how other people can see us.

Waking up is hard to do.

[moonbat]

Do you have a link to the site that lists what's a conspiracy and what's a fact?

Yes please, I would like to have that list as well.

[Mr. White]

Andrew Sullivan is one of us. He's just making a point about how other people can see us.

Waking up is hard to do.

For both sides. A number of us come across as extremely contemptuous of those that don't agree with us immediately. That's not how you get an ear, it's how you get a door closed. Some say that we don't need that kind of person, I disagree. I'd prefer someone else's inability to behave politely NOT close a door before I even get there.

Not condemning anyone, just pointing out a trend I see on these boards to react with great animosity towards anyone and everyone who doesn't buy into everything we do. Whether they are worthy of your contempt is irrelevant. Their vote still counts as much as yours.

[Mark Rushmore]

As usual, the way to correct other's misconceptions and silence one's detractors is not to fret over and pander to them, but rather to stodgily trudge on down the path of simple truth. Whatever the outcome of this election, Ron Paul's groundswell of support should reinforce that much.

[thegearbox]

Ignoring the fact is what got us into this mess. A few years ago it would have been ludicris to say that we would have a national ID card, and that we would be pursueing a borderless nation, and yet here we are. One would also call it crazy to say that the U.S. empowered Fidel, Sadam, and the regime in Iran, but thats all fact. One would call it crazy that we passed all of our money on to the Federal Reserve, but that's the truth. One would be crazy ti think thats all the mass media outlets are bought out, but that also is documented truth. One might be crazy to think that we could hold people with out a trial, but look at Guantanamo Bay. Heck, even a few years ago, we would call it crazy to think that the Government would pass an act giving them the right to spy on every bit of our lives without just cause. This is all truth, this is all fact. People ignore it because they think, "oh no, not this country". All I can say is that if we ignore this any longer then there will be nothing left of us.

[Mark Rushmore]

Ignoring the fact is what got us into this mess. A few years ago it would have been ludicris to say that we would have a national ID card, and that we would be pursueing a borderless nation, and yet here we are. One would also call it crazy to say that the U.S. empowered Fidel, Sadam, and the regime in Iran, but thats all fact. One would call it crazy that we passed all of our money on to the Federal Reserve, but that's the truth. One would be crazy ti think thats all the mass media outlets are bought out, but that also is documented truth. One might be crazy to think that we could hold people with out a trial, but look at Guantanamo Bay. Heck, even a few years ago, we would call it crazy to think that the Government would pass an act giving them the right to spy on every bit of our lives without just cause. This is all truth, this is all fact. People ignore it because they think, "oh no, not this country". All I can say is that if we ignore this any longer then there will be nothing left of us.

Good post.

[angelatc]

For both sides. A number of us come across as extremely contemptuous of those that don't agree with us immediately. That's not how you get an ear, it's how you get a door closed. Some say that we don't need that kind of person, I disagree. I'd prefer someone else's inability to behave politely NOT close a door before I even get there.

Not condemning anyone, just pointing out a trend I see on these boards to react with great animosity towards anyone and everyone who doesn't buy into everything we do. Whether they are worthy of your contempt is irrelevant. Their vote still counts as much as yours.

I think it's a brilliant post on Sullivan's blog. He's pointing out that some of us are right, some of us are a little nuts, and the source of the letter is a neo-con war monger anyway.

[Brinck Slattery]

Alien Lanes - great name, great album! I can understand why Sullivan would post this. I think it's important for all of us to stick our heads outside the Ron Paul bubble occasionally and examine how others see us - both the positives and the negatives.

I think the "bubble" mentality is why some people fly off the handle about "hit pieces" where there's no hit, just regular questions. Example: Wolf Blitzer segment yesterday - not a hit piece. Article about stolen credit cards - hit piece.

We can't assume that just because others aren't fawning over Ron Paul they are mortal enemies - everyone is a potential supporter, we just have to put forth the message in a way that appeals to the individuals we interact with.

[Mr. White]

I think it's a brilliant post on Sullivan's blog. He's pointing out that some of us are right, some of us are a little nuts, and the source of the letter is a neo-con war monger anyway.

agreed

[adpierce]

Yes please, I would like to have that list as well.

A conspiracy: Underground plot to do something malevolent.

Conspiracies do exist. In fact, some people think that if you believe that there's a conspiracy to create a North American Union. Our very own Dr. Paul is one of those people. Fortunately, he's got facts behind him.

Facts: Cold Hard Evidence that nobody can with any intellectual honesty can deny from a reputable source who can provide proof of how he arrived at his conclusion.

Reputable Source: Somebody who is a well respected academic, journalistic or governmental authority who is known for integrity in reporting.

If you do believe in a so-called conspiracy however and people don't believe that it real then you should refer back to the basic elements of what the Greeks referred to as a good argument:
Logos: Logical ... Reasoned argument
Pathos: Presented in a relevant way, strikes the audience as an important topic
Ethos: Proven Integrity... the basic personal background of the person presenting the argument.

[Flirple]

I thought it might be a good thing to post to show how some people perceive us.

I have been trying for 6 months to get this message across to that segment of RP supporters to try to get them to change their ways but there is no reasoning with them.

It is a problem that we need to address because this is going to get worse in the near future as media covers us more. But I don't have the answers.

[thegearbox]

Yeah, lets all let people tell us what to think while we sit here and fight for our rights!

[me3]

Do Ron Paul supporters have anything good to say about Huckabee or Giuliani supporters?

[thegearbox]

Most have nothing to say, and that's better then what everyone else is doing.

[Mark Rushmore]

I have been trying for 6 months to get this message across to that segment of RP supporters to try to get them to change their ways but there is no reasoning with them.

It is a problem that we need to address because this is going to get worse in the near future as media covers us more. But I don't have the answers.

So long as the message keeps getting spread and more and more people start signing on, the problem won't get worse but rather fade away. Do you think there aren't a few hundred Hillary supporters wacked out of their minds wanting to kill all males and let science handle reproduction or whatever the case may be? I'm sure there are, but when the "Hillary" portion of the population is so large, the fringe elements seem properly fringe.

The trouble now is that one of the exact same sorts of personality that might lead a person to strongly embrace Ron Paul's message is the sort that, as you put it, isn't going to change their ways. After all, the subtext of the campaign is that we shouldn't, and should never have, changed our ways as a country and abandoned our constitutional principles. Nevertheless, as a more moderate following develops, the more radical early-adopters will make up a smaller representative slice of the "Ron Paul" population.

General legitimacy will increase without any need to try and suppress the fervent supporters. What's most important is that we don't fall into the trap of infighting and second-guessing other supporters when we all have the same goal in sight. There seems to be a rash of threads and articles all with this same gist, and with each one a bit of time is possibly detracted from the overall campaigning work we might do. We just have to keep on keeping on, and let the message of truth and freedom carry the day.

[adpierce]

Yeah, lets all let people tell us what to think while we sit here and fight for our rights!

I'm not going to tell you what you can and cannot say, and as to what you can think I'm not even going to presume to pretend that I can change what is in your mind. I'm simply saying that some things people say are unnecessary distractions from the already difficult to get across message of liberty that Dr. Paul is promoting. I advocate that if you're a Dr. Paul supporter that you focus on articulating the message as well as you can and leave the controversial stuff for another time when Dr. Paul is not a candidate for the Presidency.

[Flirple]

So long as the message keeps getting spread and more and more people start signing on, the problem won't get worse but rather fade away. Do you think there aren't a few hundred Hillary supporters wacked out of their minds wanting to kill all males and let science handle reproduction or whatever the case may be? I'm sure there are, but when the "Hillary" portion of the population is so large, the fringe elements seem properly fringe.

The trouble now is that one of the exact same sorts of personality that might lead a person to strongly embrace Ron Paul's message is the sort that, as you put it, isn't going to change their ways. After all, the subtext of the campaign is that we shouldn't, and should never have, changed our ways as a country and abandoned our constitutional principles. Nevertheless, as a more moderate following develops, the more radical early-adopters will make up a smaller representative slice of the "Ron Paul" population.

General legitimacy will increase without any need to try and suppress the fervent supporters. What's most important is that we don't fall into the trap of infighting and second-guessing other supporters when we all have the same goal in sight. There seems to be a rash of threads and articles all with this same gist, and with each one a bit of time is possibly detracted from the overall campaigning work we might do. We just have to keep on keeping on, and let the message of truth and freedom carry the day.

Yes I think you've got a pretty good handle on this issue. That is what I am hoping. I think we are at that critical stage where the more people start to join us the more the "fringe" element will become irrelevant. Which then makes it even easier for the reluctant to join in without being called a "kook" by their co-workers and neighbors.

[Original_Intent]

I'm not going to tell you what you can and cannot say, and as to what you can think I'm not even going to presume to pretend that I can change what is in your mind. I'm simply saying that some things people say are unnecessary distractions from the already difficult to get across message of liberty that Dr. Paul is promoting. I advocate that if you're a Dr. Paul supporter that you focus on articulating the message as well as you can and leave the controversial stuff for another time when Dr. Paul is not a candidate for the Presidency.

In response to the bolded section I would say this. It is hard to sell a liberty message to someone who does not realize they are enslaved.

On the other hand, just like in The Matrix, if you wake up somebody to the truth to quickly they will not thank you for it and even if they believe you they will be so overwhelmed that they will reject what you are saying. If someone has been wearing a blindfold for years, whipping off the blindofld and shining a bright light in their eyes is not going to help them see, in fact it could blind them permanently.

/confucios :D

[Kandilynn]

I'm a paul supporter and I do nothing that this person says a supporter does.

[MS0453]

I'm a paul supporter and I do nothing that this person says a supporter does.

Than you're doing something wrong. :p

[Malakai0]

The CFR is just a conspiracy theory folks, duh.


www.cfr.org


http://www.cfr.org/publication/8102/ (blueprint for a north american community)

[adpierce]

In response to the bolded section I would say this. It is hard to sell a liberty message to someone who does not realize they are enslaved.

On the other hand, just like in The Matrix, if you wake up somebody to the truth to quickly they will not thank you for it and even if they believe you they will be so overwhelmed that they will reject what you are saying. If someone has been wearing a blindfold for years, whipping off the blindofld and shining a bright light in their eyes is not going to help them see, in fact it could blind them permanently.

/confucios :D

I totally agree, to accept the message of liberty that Dr. Paul is promoting requires a profound paradigm shift from where most people are at in their thinking about government. In general it's difficult to sell the message of liberty. It takes time for a person to understand it's truth. It helps that our country was founded on this idea of liberty. Just imagine how hard the founders of this nation had to fight to show the inherent truth in their philosophy of liberty. They had to shed blood to do it. Now it's ingrained deep within our culture, even if recently it has been perverted and twisted into the system we have now. Our task to help get Dr. Paul elected is not a simple one, it'll take hard work and cost us much, but it will be worth it. Keep fighting, and leave the controversial stuff out, it just distracts.

[moonbat]

A conspiracy: Underground plot to do something malevolent.

Conspiracies do exist. In fact, some people think that if you believe that there's a conspiracy to create a North American Union. Our very own Dr. Paul is one of those people. Fortunately, he's got facts behind him.

Facts: Cold Hard Evidence that nobody can with any intellectual honesty can deny from a reputable source who can provide proof of how he arrived at his conclusion.

Reputable Source: Somebody who is a well respected academic, journalistic or governmental authority who is known for integrity in reporting.

If you do believe in a so-called conspiracy however and people don't believe that it real then you should refer back to the basic elements of what the Greeks referred to as a good argument:
Logos: Logical ... Reasoned argument
Pathos: Presented in a relevant way, strikes the audience as an important topic
Ethos: Proven Integrity... the basic personal background of the person presenting the argument.

Thank you so much but I really didn't need you to define what a conspiracy theory or a fact is. :rolleyes:

[dc74rp]

I don't remember who said it, or the exact wording, but the spirits there:

"A prophets job is to slam the whole truth down on the people, who will reject it and kill him. A leaders job is to feed the people as much truth as they can handle at a time, so that they will follow him the rest of the way to it."

Do we want the movement to elect Ron Paul to be a prophet or a leader?

As for what's "fact" and what's "conspiracy", who am I to say? But in my view, if Paul makes it one of his official positions, then it's one of his positions. And if not, then it's not one of his positions. I don't agree with Paul on everything, but I'm not going to associate him with any of my views he hasn't come out in support of.

[freeslacker]

i think we're all aware of that perception... what it seems like you're attempting to do (on your what, 9th post?) is stir up the s*pot.

furthermore, i get a funny feeling that you know that (what, with so precious little time).

I agree with this sentiment.