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View Full Version : Help Converting a Christian Neocon!




timreichstein
12-27-2011, 03:04 AM
So I shared the newest Foreign Policy youtube on my facebook. "you like ron paul except on foreign policy"

I got this response from a relative - he is a minister, christian, vet - we have had debates before, and it seems that he is opening up, if just very slightly...

"Tim, I watched the entire video. This veteran doesn't support Ron Paul. I don't think his foreign policy is 'wacky.' I think it is naive.
The Cold War was difficult and complex and 'blowback' occurred. This video is very nicely produced, but it ignores about 50 years of details in that post-WWII Cold War with communist Russia and China.
Given the nature of our enemies and the asymmetrical nature of warfare today, it is dangerous to bring all US troops home. Fundamental Islam, the Russians, the Chinese, narco-terrorists and others will not cease trying to destroy our nation just because we become protrectionist and xenophobic in our foreign policy as Rep. Paul suggests. Becoming energy independent and securing our borders are the two most important steps, prior to bringing any troops home.
Also, Ron Paul co-sponsored marijuana legalization with Reps. Jared Polis and Barney Frank, two very strange 'bedfellows.' I think a man is known by the company he keeps. He also says that government should be 'out of the marriage business.' Traditional marriage (and the stable families which result) is the bedrock of any stable society, and along with education, should be promoted and protected by our government - not ignored and neglected as Rep. Paul advocates.
Ron Paul is out of the mainstream of conservatism. He is a libertarian. I like many of his perspectives, esp. a return to Constitutional governance and fiscal policy, but don't try to sell me on his naive foreign policy. We live in a different world now. He would make a fine Secy of the Treasury."

I wrote this - but didn't send it, because I figured it would turn him off...

"XXXX - we have had this debate before. It's become clear to me - you are anti-constitution when it comes to foreign policy and when it comes to social policy. The constitution clearly defines the federal governments role. You talk about education - do you want the federal government to have a larger say in our education? Marriage - do people take marriage seriously because the government has a role in it? Energy Independence - do you want the federal government to give more corporate welfare to companies in the name of energy independence? Securing Borders - which ones? Ours, or Afghanistans/Iraq/Pakistan?? The 10th amendment gives the states the right to prohibit any drug it wants to. Do you want the FDA to have more power over what we put in our body in the name of protecting us? Whats next - Health care??

I see no difference between Newt Romney and Barack Obama. They are both pro big government. I will not throw my vote away by voting against principle. I will vote for Ron Paul as the republican nominee, if he is not, then I will vote Libertarian/Constitution party, or write his name in. I have no doubt that you will vote for Newt Romney, your pro big government rhetoric is a perfect fit."

timreichstein
12-27-2011, 03:05 AM
Any ideas on what I should really say?? Or is he a lost cause...

ryanmkeisling
12-27-2011, 03:19 AM
I never even try with people like this because they are afraid, do not support freedom, and really do believe some fanciful things.

You could pick many statements in his email and ask him to substantiate:

"Given the nature of our enemies and the asymmetrical nature of warfare today, it is dangerous to bring all US troops home." Is there any verifiable evidence besides government propaganda that these are even enemies?

"Fundamental Islam, the Russians, the Chinese, narco-terrorists and others will not cease trying to destroy our nation just because we become protrectionist and xenophobic in our foreign policy as Rep. Paul suggests." Where is there direct evidence that this is now or ever has been true? Who is trying to destroy our nation?

"Traditional marriage (and the stable families which result) is the bedrock of any stable society, and along with education..." This also, can he even give an example, in all of history, of a stable society, let alone one where this is true.

This person is obviously grossly misinformed and uninformed about the world he is living in. You did your best but this guy is an absolute crazy person and a megalomaniac. Let it go. IMHO not worth the time. People have to be ready for freedom, not convinced of it or that it is even possible.

timreichstein
12-27-2011, 06:22 PM
My Response:

XXXX - please substantiate your claim that the Fundamental Islam, the Russians, the Chinese, narco-terrorists and others are trying to destroy our nation. You are the one that sounds Xenophobic with your views of the world. Ron Paul's foreign policy is more about free trade and diplomacy than it is "isolationism". Fact - His defense budget will still be 5x greater than China's.

The constitution clearly defines the federal governments role in our lives. The 10th Amendment gives the states the rights to prohibit drugs. I feel that the FDA has way to much power, power that needs to be stripped, and given back to the states. For Ron Paul to "legalize marijuana", would simply mean the federal government is not going to trample on the 10th amendment right the states have to prohibit, or to open it up to the free market like alcohol is.

You talk about education - but the dept of ed is a disaster. What should the federal governments role in education be??

You talk about marriage, but I don't hold my vows sacred because of the federal government.

You talk about energy independence, and again, should the federal government be picking winners and loser with corporate welfare (subsidies)?

We could easily secure our borders, yet we focus on Iran's, Pakistan's, Afghanistan's, and Iraq's borders. (Germany, Japan, S. Korea, and many more countries as well)

You say you like his constitutional governance and fiscal policy, but your rhetoric clearly sides on big government, or what I like to call it - the Nanny State.


My wife told me to take out the part when I called him a bigot for his language regarding Ron and Barney as bedfellows...

I also linked the christian just war theory video and the Leno interview for him. Probably wont do much, but we will see...

Dr.3D
12-27-2011, 06:42 PM
Well, since he is a minister, I would probably ask him these things.

What are the peacemakers considered?
Answer: Matthew 5:9

How should we threat others? This includes other countries.
Answer: Luke 6:31

Which candidate is saying we should do that?
Answer: Ron Paul

vechorik
12-27-2011, 06:49 PM
Confessions of a neocon:
I was a neocon and didn't know it. Ron Paul supporters called me that, so I looked up the definition on You Tube. Ron Paul's video with a definition and listing names was interesting to me. I had loved ones killed in war and was tired of constant war. I was sad to know I was a neocon, but didn't do anything about it.

Light bulbs didn't go off for me until I learned about United Nations Agenda 21, that Bush I signed and every president since has pushed.
I realized THAT was what is changing America.
I ran as fast as I could to learn more about Ron Paul, because I realized he is the only one saying the US should get out of the UN -- he was the only one that wasn't a neocon!

So........be sure to get those two points across -- neocon -- Agenda 21.
Might help.

tennman
01-01-2012, 01:04 AM
Here's a Christian site that sports a "Christian Voting Guide" (http://gracecentered.com/christian_voting_guide_voters.htm) and they seem to be pro-Paul.

sratiug
01-01-2012, 01:40 AM
The government didnt' become involved in marriage and issue licenses until after the Civil War when states attempted to keep blacks and whites from inter-marrying. Divorce rates have skyrocketed with increasing government involvement.

We lost the Vietnam War, now we trade with Vietnam. We fought that war ostensibly to all of east Asia from going communist. But after we left, Vietnam fought a war with China, another communist country.

We gave foreign aid to the Soviet Union since the 70's, huge amounts of wheat, that propped up their communist system.

The Bible says usery (charging of interest) is a sin. Yet our politicians (all but one) are controlled by the owners of the unconstitutional Federal Reserve System which devalues our currency continuously through inflation of the money supply, destroying our middle class. and benefitting large corporations. The Bible calls for sound money. Genesis 47:15 speaks of the money failing and the people selling themselves into slavery.

jhost0311
01-07-2012, 09:30 AM
Did Jesus preach Peace or preventive war? Where does it say in the bible we should suppress others such that they do not rise up against?

libertygrl
01-08-2012, 01:37 PM
I would suggest checking out some of Pastor Chuck Baldwin's articles. He's a big Ron Paul supporter. Good Luck!

hxxp://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwina.htm

Also, Ron's speech at the Faith and Freedom Conference
Ron Paul: True Liberties Come From Our Creator, Not the Government


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2ggqApNI6s

Freedoms
01-09-2012, 09:00 AM
Ryanmkeisling has the best approach to persuading this person.

Persuasion is rarely (if ever) achieved through argument. Calling people neocons, bigots, xenophobic, etc will cause them to mentally shut out anything you say - even if you are 100% right. Persuade - don't argue!

The best way to help people realize the fallacy of their beliefs, is NOT by lecturing them - it is by asking them questions (such as the questions Ryanmkeisling suggested). That's how you help them to realize they really have no evidence or basis for their irrational fear/beliefs.

And the way you ask these questions is important as well - do NOT ask these questions in an interrogative way. Ask them in a curious way - like you are really curious and interested in finding out where they're coming from.

georgiaboy
01-09-2012, 09:17 AM
The real question here is do you think this person is willing to change views when presented with logic and truth. If they're willing to be open-minded, then I think based on how the person responded, a primer in the role of fed vs. state gov't under the US constitutional republic is in order, along with some history.

It's gonna take time to turn this person, they're in pretty deep.

One other approach that hasn't been mentioned is to compare Ron vs. the other candidates. For instance, Ron is the only candidate who is really talking about cuts. If you're anti-bailout, stimulus, etc., Ron's your only choice.

georgiaboy
01-09-2012, 09:19 AM
My Response:

XXXX - please substantiate your claim that the Fundamental Islam, the Russians, the Chinese, narco-terrorists and others are trying to destroy our nation. You are the one that sounds Xenophobic with your views of the world. Ron Paul's foreign policy is more about free trade and diplomacy than it is "isolationism". Fact - His defense budget will still be 5x greater than China's.

The constitution clearly defines the federal governments role in our lives. The 10th Amendment gives the states the rights to prohibit drugs. I feel that the FDA has way to much power, power that needs to be stripped, and given back to the states. For Ron Paul to "legalize marijuana", would simply mean the federal government is not going to trample on the 10th amendment right the states have to prohibit, or to open it up to the free market like alcohol is.

You talk about education - but the dept of ed is a disaster. What should the federal governments role in education be??

You talk about marriage, but I don't hold my vows sacred because of the federal government.

You talk about energy independence, and again, should the federal government be picking winners and loser with corporate welfare (subsidies)?

We could easily secure our borders, yet we focus on Iran's, Pakistan's, Afghanistan's, and Iraq's borders. (Germany, Japan, S. Korea, and many more countries as well)

You say you like his constitutional governance and fiscal policy, but your rhetoric clearly sides on big government, or what I like to call it - the Nanny State.

As a quick rebuttal to the person's points, I like this response.

Liberty74
01-09-2012, 09:27 AM
JUST WAR THEORY!!!

flightlesskiwi
01-09-2012, 09:40 AM
JUST WAR THEORY!!!

HA!! good luck with that. with his mention of Islam piggybacked onto Russia and China, i can almost guarantee the OP is dealing with an islamophobe.