NYC Cracks Down on "Roll your own" Cigarette Stores

[Rael]

'Roll your own' cigarette stores snuffed out by city

By LAURA ITALIANO

Last Updated: 6:18 PM, December 20, 2011

They're no longer on a roll.

A pair of "roll your own" tobacco stores -- one in Chinatown, the other in Staten Island, and both the bane of tax collectors -- have agreed to shut down by Feb. 1, city officials said today.

Island Smokes, which operates both locations, had been skirting cigarette tax laws by providing customers with loose tobacco, tubes of cigarette paper and in-store access to cigarette-making machines -- essentially, selling untaxed cigarettes, officials said.

The company had been sued by city lawyers, and today agreed to shut down in settlement of that lawsuit, according to a Law Department spokeswoman.

At least five other "roll your own" businesses have sprung up since Island Smokes came on the city's radar, and several have been issued case and desist letters, the spokeswoman said.

The letters warn that they do not close down voluntarily, they, too, will be subject to a lawsuit seeking a judge's order to shut them down.

Sales of non-taxed cigarettes rob the city of millions of dollars in lost tax revenue, officials said.

"The success of this lawsuit should serve as a reminder to others thinking of 'gimmicks' to skirt New York City's tough cigarette laws that the city will enforce these laws vigorously," said Michael Cardozo, who heads the Law Department, which brought the law suit.

[Kluge]

They've been trying to do that in PA, too. There's a nearby store with RYO machines. You can make something like 500 at a time, I believe the # is.

You buy the tobacco and filters, then rent an awesome automated rolling machine with a hamper. The state legislature's been trying to get the "pipe tobacco" (seems to often be inferior in quality... tiny sticks in all the brands I've seen, so far) they use for cigarettes further taxed to try making up the difference - and there's been talk of banning the machine renting altogether. As-is, RYO cigs are over 50% cheaper if you have your own machine.

It's not necessarily "cheaper," though. There are often lines to use the machines, you have to wait around while the machine works its magic, and the rental fee ends up making up something like 30-50% of the total RYO cost. So, no, it's not really the same as simply buying pre-fab cigs.

[Kluge]

Of course..... I think there's a big untapped market for cheaper tax-free cigarettes -- a black market... and if legislators continue to make acquiring cigs more difficult to do legally, others will make up for the slack, and take all control (and tax revenue) away from the USG. So, hey - more power to these legislators -- folks need the work.

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

Sales of non-taxed cigarettes rob the city of millions of dollars in lost tax revenue, officials said.


They have that really fucking backwards. Rob the city?? Really??

[Seraphim]

QFT!!!!

What a Twilight Zone statement...The State NOT being able to tax, is theft?!?!?!??!?

HAHAHAHAHAH. What a fucking joke.


They have that really fucking backwards. Rob the city?? Really??

[JK/SEA]

how many jobs lost, and how much biz tax did they pay?...its all about the children...

[slamhead]

Heard they are going to do this in California also.

[musicmax]

Sales of non-taxed cigarettes rob the city of millions of dollars in lost tax revenue, officials said.


You can't be "robbed" of that which you do not already rightly possess.

The city isn't being "robbed" a penny.

[robert9712000]

You can't be "robbed" of that which you do not already rightly possess.

The city isn't being "robbed" a penny.

ya beat me too it.How can you be robbed of what isnt yours to begin with

[Lafayette]

They have that really fucking backwards. Rob the city?? Really??

Who are the ones showing up with guns and threatening violence if you do not give them money?

[NYgs23]

Just another reminder that the state is force.

[libertybrewcity]

The cheapest pack of cigarettes I can find in southeastern wisconsin is around 7.75. Back in Virginia you can get a cheap pack for less than 5.

[Kluge]

The cheapest pack of cigarettes I can find in southeastern wisconsin is around 7.75. Back in Virginia you can get a cheap pack for less than 5.
Yeah. I actually did the calculations for RYO costs a few months ago for a bulk purchase in case of tax increases. 50 lbs of "pipe tobacco" should fill 20k rolls w/filter. That much cheapish tobacco costs ~$645 (+~$55 in PA tax), so $700. Then another $250 for 20k rolls. $950/20,000=$.0475/cig, or $.95 for a pack of 20. You can grab a decent rolling machine for <$100, so you can see why states (and, probably even moreso, major tobacco companies) really hate the idea of consumers rolling their own cigarettes.

If a black marketeer were to sell packs of 200 @ just $20 (which'd otherwise cost the consumer $50+ buying cheap packs in relatively low-tax states), that fellow'd be looking @ $10 profit for each set of 200 cigs sold. In NYC, packs of cigs can actually reach an astonishing $10+. I don't think the black marketeer would have any trouble moving packs of 200 @ $50 or even $80 - while still needing only to pay $15/200 in operating expenses. Now, using a manual injection roller, it takes about 20m to spit out 200 cigarettes after getting skilled and taking the time to get excess tobacco out of the cig. Let's say the guy spends 3h a day to make 1800 cigs (or 9 packs of 200), and 1h to move those packs. If he sells @ $50/200, and pays $10/200 for supplies, he's making $360/day working 4h, or $90/hr tax-free -- just using a cheap manual machine (they make super-fast automatic machines, too, for a fairly small investment). If he worked 4h/day 6d/wk for a year, he'd make well over $100k/yr. That's some crazy bank just from the laws already in place, probably higher than selling much more legally-dangerous drugs, and definitely way easier than having to find a steady black-market supplier.

[puppetmaster]

I own one of these stores. We follow the laws as written. I do not sell cigarettes, only the supplies to make them and a person is exempt from the excise tax if you make cigarettes for your own personal consumption.

[newbitech]

A store like this just opened up down the road from my house. I paid $13.40 for 100 cigs. These cigs are rolled tight from the machine, last longer, do not have the chemical perservatives, and are fresh so burn smooth. The 2.68 a pack saves me almost 1.50 per pack from the brand I switched to and is nearly 3x's cheeper than the premium brands. I like them because I don't need to smoke as much to satisfy my craving. These are "shorts" and the way I have been smoking them, one of these is worth 2 of the "longs" I am used to smoking. So really, I smoke "less" of this cigarette than I do of the discount or premium brands. Probably because those brands are designed to burn fast and deliver less nicotine.

So double those savings, and the smoke is probably not nearly as toxic. I imagine there is a market out there for hand rollers that are willing to take the risk in building up clients. To me, this process proves easily that the concept is viable.

[Humanae Libertas]

How can you lose money you never had? Only the government would say such a ridicoulous thing.

[Suzu]

A store like this just opened up down the road from my house. I paid $13.40 for 100 cigs. These cigs are rolled tight from the machine, last longer, do not have the chemical perservatives, and are fresh so burn smooth. The 2.68 a pack saves me almost 1.50 per pack from the brand I switched to and is nearly 3x's cheeper than the premium brands. I like them because I don't need to smoke as much to satisfy my craving. These are "shorts" and the way I have been smoking them, one of these is worth 2 of the "longs" I am used to smoking. So really, I smoke "less" of this cigarette than I do of the discount or premium brands. Probably because those brands are designed to burn fast and deliver less nicotine.

So double those savings, and the smoke is probably not nearly as toxic. I imagine there is a market out there for hand rollers that are willing to take the risk in building up clients. To me, this process proves easily that the concept is viable.

If you want to smoke even more cheaply, forget about the paper tubes and rolling machines, and roll them by hand (which takes less than five minutes to learn to do). You will smoke less because you can't just grab one and light up, and they don't keep burning in the ashtray either.

Get tobacco in bulk ($15/lb.) pound and rolling papers by the box - 24 packs of papers to a box ($19), 115 papers in each pack (Bugler brand) and it takes about 5 packs to roll up a pound of tobacco.

The total cost ends up being less than $7 for the equivalent of a carton (200 cigarettes). As opposed to your current cost of $26.80 for the same number.

[XTreat]

If you want to smoke even more cheaply, forget about the paper tubes and rolling machines, and roll them by hand (which takes less than five minutes to learn to do). You will smoke less because you can't just grab one and light up, and they don't keep burning in the ashtray either.

Get tobacco in bulk ($15/lb.) pound and rolling papers by the box - 24 packs of papers to a box ($19), 115 papers in each pack (Bugler brand) and it takes about 5 packs to roll up a pound of tobacco.

The total cost ends up being less than $7 for the equivalent of a carton (200 cigarettes). As opposed to your current cost of $26.80 for the same number.

I was gonna say, we got this far and no one has mentioned hand rolling? It's cool to boot.

[BamaAla]

Of course..... I think there's a big untapped market for cheaper tax-free cigarettes -- a black market... and if legislators continue to make acquiring cigs more difficult to do legally, others will make up for the slack, and take all control (and tax revenue) away from the USG. So, hey - more power to these legislators -- folks need the work.

They already have! There was a few nightly news stories about it a few years back; come to think of it, I believe there was one earlier this year. Folks were driving down to Virginia, buying them on the cheap, bringing them back to NYC, and making a killing. I'm sure, as taxes continue to rise in the city, this is becoming more prevalent.

[XTreat]

If you want to smoke even more cheaply, forget about the paper tubes and rolling machines, and roll them by hand (which takes less than five minutes to learn to do). You will smoke less because you can't just grab one and light up, and they don't keep burning in the ashtray either.

Get tobacco in bulk ($15/lb.) pound and rolling papers by the box - 24 packs of papers to a box ($19), 115 papers in each pack (Bugler brand) and it takes about 5 packs to roll up a pound of tobacco.

The total cost ends up being less than $7 for the equivalent of a carton (200 cigarettes). As opposed to your current cost of $26.80 for the same number.

I was gonna say, we got this far and no one has mentioned hand rolling? It's cool to boot.

[Krugerrand]

Simple rolling machines are pretty cheap on amazon. It would be a great way from somebody to make some extra cash while watching TV.

[oyarde]

The cheapest pack of cigarettes I can find in southeastern wisconsin is around 7.75. Back in Virginia you can get a cheap pack for less than 5. I am paying 4.52 in Southern Indiana for Marlboro 72's . One dollar Fed tax , one dollar state tax and 7 % sales tax , so , about 2.20 without tax.

[gls]

People already buy cartons of cigs from South Carolina and then sell them by the pack on the streets of NYC for huge profits (but still a lot cheaper than you can get them in the store). It's a win-win for everyone but the government leeches. That type of activity is only going to increase.

[Krugerrand]

There are some "brew your own" beer and wine places with similar business models.

[eduardo89]

I was gonna say, we got this far and no one has mentioned hand rolling? It's cool to boot.


I am paying 4.52 in Southern Indiana for Marlboro 72's . One dollar Fed tax , one dollar state tax and 7 % sales tax , so , about 2.20 without tax.

Damn that's cheap! Even with the tax. Here in Spain and Germany a pack of Marlboro is €5 ($6.50). Just a year and a half ago it was only €2.75 ($3.60).

[oyarde]

Damn that's cheap! Even with the tax. Here in Spain and Germany a pack of Marlboro is €5 ($6.50). Just a year and a half ago it was only €2.75 ($3.60). When I lived in Germany in the 80's , they were four marks a pack even then .

[oyarde]

Cheaper in Kentucky , less tax.

[oyarde]

Damn that's cheap! Even with the tax. Here in Spain and Germany a pack of Marlboro is €5 ($6.50). Just a year and a half ago it was only €2.75 ($3.60). I would rather pay the 2.20 and cut the govt out ;)

[jkr]

NOW, who was it thated hated "us" for our freedoms again!(my question mark is broken)

[fisharmor]

I just put the butts down again a week an a half ago, and now that I read this, I'm gonna go smoke a $5/pack Virginia cigarette and tell my buddies how much New York sucks.

[Tod]

I have long been surprised that there aren't more people growing their own tobacco and rolling their own. Maybe an approach like owning a share of a cow.

[puppetmaster]

A person making a tobacco product from raw tobacco is exempt under the internal revenue of the US. USC title 26 Sub Title E Chapter 52 Subchapter A, 5702 defines a tobacco product as

(c) Tobacco products
Cigars, Cigarettes, Smokeless tobacco, pipe tobacco, and roll your own tobacco.

(d) manufacturer of tobacco products
means any person who manufactures cigars, cigarettes, smokeless tobacco, or roll your own tobacco, except for his own personal consumption or use.