Paul: Kim Jong Il dead, U.S. should leave S. Korea

[Evilfox]

http://widget.newsinc.com/fullplayerwvars.html?wid=2201&cid=993&spid=23556897&freewheel=90080&sitesection=usnews_pol

Great video, great time to advocate his foreign policy.

[craezie]

I am not sure that I agree on this one. While I 100% believe that we should not be policing other countries or occupying them with the military, I think this is somewhat akin to Social Security. The government should not be paying people's retirement either. However, when you created the mess, and you made promises (which the other party detrimentally relied on) then you do not just cut them off cold turkey. There needs to be an interim plan for them to begin to fully protect themselves without leaving them vulnerable. N. Korea is a mess, and that crazy son might just do something rash to prove his power.

[robertwerden]

With Social security we have a contract with the people who paid into it.

With South Korea, the people who made those choices to be there and to help them are gone. There is no contract.

[SpiritOf1776_J4]

South Korea is big enough to take care of themselves. If they need some time to build up their military since we're leaving, they should get the time.

We've been there how long? They are a rich country, they should be able to defend themselves. And troops in Europe is just dumb. Don't we ever leave? And we're paying for all this.

[Pennsylvania]

I can't view the video at the moment, but I could really use a succinct, packaged answer for why leaving the ROK would not be a disaster for Korea itself, or for us.

[thehungarian]

I am not sure that I agree on this one. While I 100% believe that we should not be policing other countries or occupying them with the military, I think this is somewhat akin to Social Security. The government should not be paying people's retirement either. However, when you created the mess, and you made promises (which the other party detrimentally relied on) then you do not just cut them off cold turkey. There needs to be an interim plan for them to begin to fully protect themselves without leaving them vulnerable. N. Korea is a mess, and that crazy son might just do something rash to prove his power.

Agreed. I fully support withdrawal of troops from all over the world, but the Korean DMZ has me worried. Especially so after learning more about NK and just how completely insane it is there. NK has one of the largest armies in the world and withdrawing from Korea could spark a conflict when it's avoidable.

[unknown]

But we cant do that, someone other bad person might come into power at which point we'll have to insert fresh skid marks into our underpants and give the military industrial complex billions more.

[randomname]

I am not sure that I agree on this one. While I 100% believe that we should not be policing other countries or occupying them with the military, I think this is somewhat akin to Social Security. The government should not be paying people's retirement either. However, when you created the mess, and you made promises (which the other party detrimentally relied on) then you do not just cut them off cold turkey. There needs to be an interim plan for them to begin to fully protect themselves without leaving them vulnerable. N. Korea is a mess, and that crazy son might just do something rash to prove his power.

+rep, if Ron addresses this in a debate it may also deflect the isolationist narrative somewhat

[Karsten]

Can't you get it into youtube.

[DerailingDaTrain]

Do something like fire one of their crappy missiles and have it fall into the ocean? Oh, they did that already. I'm pretty sure that SK can defend themselves from any NK soldiers coming across the DMZ and under (they've found tunnels and now have technology to search for them). I was watching CNN in this morning and they had those two women on who were imprisoned in NK for spying and Bill Clinton helped get them released. Anyway, they said that there seemed to be a split in the country between the military and the politicians (called something different though, ministry, something like that). They keep hundreds of thousands of their own citizens in prison camps and the rest of them are starving to death and passing out in the street (Except those in Pyongyang apparently). They can't go on for much longer and we will likely use this food shipment Obama is thinking about sending as a bargaining chip judging from H. Clinton's remarks today about NK.

[Icymudpuppy]

The S. Korean military may have fewer men, but is a much stronger army than NK. They have better equipment, better planes, better tanks, better everything. They are better trained, and have more food and ammunition to draw from. NK would get their clocks cleaned.

[PastaRocket848]

I can't view the video at the moment, but I could really use a succinct, packaged answer for why leaving the ROK would not be a disaster for Korea itself, or for us.

Because it's half a world away, is not Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, and we're the U.S. of friggin' A. If someone honestly believes that the U.S. is threatened by, well, anyone on the face of the earth that isn't China, they just don't believe in American military power, and thus don't support our military. You can't say "go team america, we're the best" while at the same time cowering in fear of a third world dictator.

[Pete Kay]

I am not sure that I agree on this one. While I 100% believe that we should not be policing other countries or occupying them with the military, I think this is somewhat akin to Social Security. The government should not be paying people's retirement either. However, when you created the mess, and you made promises (which the other party detrimentally relied on) then you do not just cut them off cold turkey. There needs to be an interim plan for them to begin to fully protect themselves without leaving them vulnerable. N. Korea is a mess, and that crazy son might just do something rash to prove his power.

South Korea has one of the most modern and well trained militaries in the world. Their military force is ranked up there with France and the UK. They aren't some helpless nation. They could easily defeat North Korea against an act of aggression. Japan, on the other hand, has a very small military, whose limits in size were imposed on them by the United States. If we were to leave Japan, they would quickly work to rearm themselves since we wouldn't be there to protect them. This could possibly lead to tensions with North Korea.

Even if we left Japan and South Korea, we'd still have troops in Guam, which is a US territory. We also have other territories nearby like the Northern Marianas Islands.

[PastaRocket848]

I am not sure that I agree on this one. While I 100% believe that we should not be policing other countries or occupying them with the military, I think this is somewhat akin to Social Security. The government should not be paying people's retirement either. However, when you created the mess, and you made promises (which the other party detrimentally relied on) then you do not just cut them off cold turkey. There needs to be an interim plan for them to begin to fully protect themselves without leaving them vulnerable. N. Korea is a mess, and that crazy son might just do something rash to prove his power.

Watch what/who you read. Much of what we know about North Korea is propaganda (ironic, no?). The general consensus is that the "crazy son" is actually very pro-western, to the point that it is a problem with the party bigwigs over there. Don't go calling people "crazy" and making suggestions for no reason. This could very well lead to DPRK opening up to western influence. They've been creeping that way over recent years. It could go either way.

[Krugerrand]

This is CRAZY TALK! We must protect South Korea. They make cell phones. If something happens to them, we'll have to buy them from China.

oh, wait, never mind. Just so long as I can buy my cell phone.

[Canderson]

Agreed. I fully support withdrawal of troops from all over the world, but the Korean DMZ has me worried. Especially so after learning more about NK and just how completely insane it is there. NK has one of the largest armies in the world and withdrawing from Korea could spark a conflict when it's avoidable.


North korea is completely insane, no argument there. However, yes their military is massive, but their equipment is horrendously outdated. The majority of their equipment is old Soviet and Chinese stuff from the 1950s and 1960s, and they even still have T34 tanks from WWII still on active duty. If there is anything Desert Storm taught us it is that size cannot make up for poor equipment and logistics when it comes to military combat. If S. Korea knew we were leaving they would quickly put together a nuclear weapon or two, they certainly have the ability, which would easily make them more than capable to take on the North. If we left, and the two Koreas went to war, assuming the North Koreans have large enough fuel reserves, the South would CRUSH the North in a matter of days with complete air superiority and a greater degree of mechanized logistics. First hand accounts from N. Korean defectors talk about how even the army had trouble filling rations in the last big famine, and all indicators point to not much improvement from that point. The problem would be China, but they are unlikely to act if the US isn't acting because the last thing they want to do is loose face on the international scene by siding with Kim jong un.

The one area where I see a problem with RP's foreign policy is Taiwan. How to we detach ourselves without China immediately pouncing afterwards.

[Krugerrand]

North korea is completely insane, no argument there. However, yes their military is massive, but their equipment is horrendously outdated. The majority of their equipment is old Soviet and Chinese stuff from the 1950s and 1960s, and they even still have T34 tanks from WWII still on active duty. If there is anything Desert Storm taught us it is that size cannot make up for poor equipment and logistics when it comes to military combat. If S. Korea knew we were leaving they would quickly put together a nuclear weapon or two, they certainly have the ability, which would easily make them more than capable to take on the North. If we left, and the two Koreas went to war, assuming the North Koreans have large enough fuel reserves, the South would CRUSH the North in a matter of days with complete air superiority and a greater degree of mechanized logistics. First hand accounts from N. Korean defectors talk about how even the army had trouble filling rations in the last big famine, and all indicators point to not much improvement from that point. The problem would be China, but they are unlikely to act if the US isn't acting because the last thing they want to do is loose face on the international scene by siding with Kim jong un.

The one area where I see a problem with RP's foreign policy is Taiwan. How to we detach ourselves without China immediately pouncing afterwards.


They could probably setup large food depots just across the border and let people come and take what they want. It would be mass NK desertion just to get the free food.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

N. Korea is a victim of our intervention. Also, bombing all of their cities into dust probably didn't help much for their infrastructure.

Let me get this straight, we destroy their infrastructure, then blame the government because people there are starving?

[IndianaPolitico]

South Korea has one of the most modern and well trained militaries in the world. Their military force is ranked up there with France and the UK. They aren't some helpless nation. They could easily defeat North Korea against an act of aggression. Japan, on the other hand, has a very small military, whose limits in size were imposed on them by the United States. If we were to leave Japan, they would quickly work to rearm themselves since we wouldn't be there to protect them. This could possibly lead to tensions with North Korea.

Even if we left Japan and South Korea, we'd still have troops in Guam, which is a US territory. We also have other territories nearby like the Northern Marianas Islands.
South Korea is also preparing a full blue water navy. North Korea's speed boats will be blown out of the water. Then again, they already are...

[jcarcinogen]

South Korea is big enough to take care of themselves. If they need some time to build up their military since we're leaving, they should get the time.

We've been there how long? They are a rich country, they should be able to defend themselves. And troops in Europe is just dumb. Don't we ever leave? And we're paying for all this.

But Fox told me that Paul's foreign policy is 'nuts'.

[Canderson]

N. Korea is a victim of our intervention. Also, bombing all of their cities into dust probably didn't help much for their infrastructure.

Let me get this straight, we destroy their infrastructure, then blame the government because people there are starving?

No offense, but we didn't cause all the ills around the world. North Korea is batshit crazy all by itself. We unintentionally helped divide the peninsula, but on this one it was the Soviets who installed Kim Il Sung not the US.

[jcarcinogen]

No offense, but we didn't cause all the ills around the world. North Korea is batshit crazy all by itself. We unintentionally helped divide the peninsula, but on this one it was the Soviets who installed Kim Il Sung not the US.

By having sanctions on them and not trading with them it enables the regime of the DPRK to more easily control the people by not having influence of outside nations.

[Krugerrand]

Let's face it, we hate them because they give the FED counterfeiting competition.

[Icymudpuppy]

N. Korea is a victim of our intervention. Also, bombing all of their cities into dust probably didn't help much for their infrastructure.

Let me get this straight, we destroy their infrastructure, then blame the government because people there are starving?

60 years ago we took part in damaging some of their infrastructure, but considering that we didn't get any more than 50 miles into their territory with land forces, and our airstrikes were pretty limited in that war, they have had more than enough time to rebuild. Germany rebuilt in what, 4 years? Japan rebuilt Hiroshima and Nagasaki in about 10 years.

[jsem]

By having sanctions on them and not trading with them it enables the regime of the DPRK to more easily control the people by not having influence of outside nations.
That is true though. NK is the closest one could come to an isolationist nation, with very closed borders. Sanctions only hurt those lowest in the food chain in NK, that is the poor starving.

[Bodhi]

I don't know, we have been in South Korea for such a long time and probably took on too much responsibility. With the death of Kim Jong Il, I don't think it would be fair to pull the troops out immediately. I think it would be better to pull other troops from other countries first. I don't think North Korea is a threat to us but it is a threat to South Korea and I think we should stay friends with South Korea. We should not have been there in the first place but there should be, just like with social security and government agencies, a transitional period. We have been part of South Korea's national defense, we should not have been, but we have been.

I do think we should leave South Korea but do it a bit slower and make sure whatever roles we have played in their national defense are handed back to them in way that does not leave them feeling like we just up and left when there is real uncertainty and possibly instability on the Korean peninsula. We should not have been involved in this entangling alliance with South Korea in the first place, but the fact is we are. If they are happy with the thought of us leaving right now, then lets get out of there, but if they feel dependent on us, we should in my opinion, in this case wean them off of that dependence as diplomatically as possible. I think we undermine their sovereignty by being there, we should leave, but in way where whatever job a US Soldier is doing over there is handed back to a South Korean soldier.

[chris41336]

The Korean situation is slightly different from other situations simply because there is still a war going on. There has been no peace treaty, only an Armistice. It is sad, this is the last vestige of the cold war, but at the end of the day we and one of our allies are at war right now.

I support pulling out regardless. But we need to make sure that we leave South Korea prepared. This isn't like having troops in Japan or Europe where they serve no purpose.

[Bodhi]

The Korean situation is slightly different from other situations simply because there is still a war going on. There has been no peace treaty, only an Armistice. It is sad, this is the last vestige of the cold war, but at the end of the day we and one of our allies are at war right now.

I support pulling out regardless. But we need to make sure that we leave South Korea prepared. This isn't like having troops in Japan or Europe where they serve no purpose.

That is what I was trying to say, I think you said it a lot better with less words.

[bbartlog]

...our airstrikes were pretty limited in that war,

I agree with most of what you wrote, but this part is wrong. Our strategic bombing against North Korea involved a million sorties and killed two million or more. True that a better managed society would long since have rebuilt, though.

[chris41336]

That is what I was trying to say, I think you said it a lot better with less words.

I would like to point out, thought, that I don't believe this is an entangling alliance strictly due to the fact that we are still at war. If we were at peace, i would be for immediate withdrawal.