How can International Supporters of Ron Paul who ARENT US Citizens legally contribute

[kimosabi]

How can International Supporters of Ron Paul who ARENT US Citizens legally contribute to the Ron Paul R3volution???

[Peterjar]

Go to www.ronpaulgraphs.com/chipin.html

Here you will find lots of chipin accounts that can accept money from anywhere. These are not affiliated with HQ so its totally legal. I run the Euro-Aid For Ron Paul Chipin. We will be raising money o produce buttons and stuff to send them to the US. If it takes off we are considerng putting together radio adds and such. Also we would like to raise awareness of Ron Paul here in Europe. Many of us are American but some are European. There are lots of Europeans who understand the importance of getting Ron elected. I think there is an untapped resource here for the campaign.

Also, if you are American please give directly to the campaign. However, grassroots effort need support too because these give our movement flexibility and diversity. November the fifth was a grassroots effort. If you are an American who has already donated $2300 also consider donating to chipin accounts.

Peter

[freedom_junkie]

chipins! can help fund grassroots efforts :) I've done it before :)

[M.Bellmore]

MODS! Is there any way to make this a title across tha main page?

"International supporters! Support the chip-ins!" (or something like that in a big banner)

[Bryan]

MODS! Is there any way to make this a title across tha main page?

"International supporters! Support the chip-ins!" (or something like that in a big banner)

Maybe- post in here to get mod attention:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=193

[IamVoting4RonPaul]

Non US-citizens cannot directly or indirectly fund a US federal election campaign. :(

ChipIns are indirectly funding a campaign -- am I wrong? Is it worth getting the official campaign in hot water? I don't think it would be fair to Dr. Paul. Email and let me know what you think.

Lisa C.
Brisbane, Australia
iamvoting4ronpaul(at)mac.com

Official info here: http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

[Indy Vidual]

ChipIns are indirectly funding a campaign -- am I wrong?

Very possibly., but we are not certain yet.

````````````

Important:

This thread has a very negative title which will chase money away.
Please, read the heated debate, but try not to post there. (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=38115)

It seems best if Ron's supporters would debate in the thread right here instead.

[hawkeyenick]

Non US-citizens cannot directly or indirectly fund a US federal election campaign. :(

ChipIns are indirectly funding a campaign -- am I wrong? Is it worth getting the official campaign in hot water? I don't think it would be fair to Dr. Paul. Email and let me know what you think.

Lisa C.
Brisbane, Australia
iamvoting4ronpaul(at)mac.com

Official info here: http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

The person spending the money is local though, it's THEIR money

[Indy Vidual]

How can International Supporters of Ron Paul who ARENT US Citizens legally contribute to the Ron Paul R3volution???

This is hopefully the correct answer (quoted below)
* If anyone else calls the FEC it is important to be able to document exactly what question is asked.

Thank you.
``````````

posted by=torchbearer

"Also- foriegners can use Chipins that support the RON PAUL FORUMS. They can use chipins for a billboard being bought by Billy Bob in Kansas.... and then they can legally drop money into a chipin that helps Stacey in Alaska paint Ron Paul all over her car...etc.
As long as the money donated does not ended up in the campaign... directly, or indirectly (meaning, i can't take their money and then donate it to the campaign as my own)"

`````````````

Edit:

Here is another key point related to the law:

"Monitoring Prohibited Contributions

When a federal political committee (a committee active in federal elections) receives a contribution it believes may be from a foreign national, it must:..."

This is written "about federal political committees" which are registered.
We are independent individuals.

[Indy Vidual]

chipins! can help fund grassroots efforts :) I've done it before :)

It's exciting to see how many people want to participate. :)

[thomaseusin]

This is hopefully the correct answer (quoted below)
* If anyone else calls the FEC it is important to be able to document exactly what question is asked.

Thank you.
``````````

posted by=torchbearer

"Also- foriegners can use Chipins that support the RON PAUL FORUMS. They can use chipins for a billboard being bought by Billy Bob in Kansas.... and then they can legally drop money into a chipin that helps Stacey in Alaska paint Ron Paul all over her car...etc.
As long as the money donated does not ended up in the campaign... directly, or indirectly (meaning, i can't take their money and then donate it to the campaign as my own)"

`````````````

Edit:

Here is another key point related to the law:

"Monitoring Prohibited Contributions

When a federal political committee (a committee active in federal elections) receives a contribution it believes may be from a foreign national, it must:..."

This is written "about federal political committees" which are registered.
We are independent individuals.

Excellent post. Have been asked before and wanted to ask this in the main Grassroots forum. I'm assuming this goes with the legal residents as well (green card holders, business visa etc). For these guys, Chipin it is!

[jordie]

I would like to propose that all us from overseas put into a fund where advertisements on the internet are purchased. It would be a way we could directly contribute to the campaign in a legal fashion, but also get the message directly to American voters. The aim would be to advertise on websites frequented by those in the position to vote for him in the primaries. I would like to know what everyone thinks about this one?

[BrianH]

I would like to propose that all us from overseas put into a fund where advertisements on the internet are purchased. It would be a way we could directly contribute to the campaign in a legal fashion, but also get the message directly to American voters. The aim would be to advertise on websites frequented by those in the position to vote for him in the primaries. I would like to know what everyone thinks about this one?

So many proposals, not enough dollars and action. I am pleading with you to support actions that are being done at grassroots level through chipins. Ours is at http://www.ronpaulinternational.com/ at the top of the list in Iowa but we've received no new donations - probably because you have to go through several pages and all ask that you have a green card or are a US citizen. These folks can give directly to the campaign. What we need is support for chipins. YOU cannot get Dr Paul in trouble because these donations DO NOT go to the official campaign. He cannot be responsible for what he has no control over.

We need massive lit drops now and local paper ad buys which are very cheap. And the media gives 10x the coverage to the "top tier" so even now many many people have never heard of Ron Paul or think he has no chance.

PLEASE SUPPORT CHIPINS!!! The grassroots really needs the support. I need to buy ads, yard signs and slimjims to get to the 12,000 voters in our county in Iowa but we have no money. see http://www.myspace.com/ronpaul_liberty to donate. You don't have to be a US citizen to give a few dollars to chipins.

Thanks !

[jordie]

So many proposals, not enough dollars and action. I am pleading with you to support actions that are being done at grassroots level through chipins. Ours is at http://www.ronpaulinternational.com/ at the top of the list in Iowa but we've received no new donations - probably because you have to go through several pages and all ask that you have a green card or are a US citizen. These folks can give directly to the campaign. What we need is support for chipins. YOU cannot get Dr Paul in trouble because these donations DO NOT go to the official campaign. He cannot be responsible for what he has no control over.

We need massive lit drops now and local paper ad buys which are very cheap. And the media gives 10x the coverage to the "top tier" so even now many many people have never heard of Ron Paul or think he has no chance.

PLEASE SUPPORT CHIPINS!!! The grassroots really needs the support. I need to buy ads, yard signs and slimjims to get to the 12,000 voters in our county in Iowa but we have no money. see http://www.myspace.com/ronpaul_liberty to donate. You don't have to be a US citizen to give a few dollars to chipins.

Thanks !

Hi Brain,

Thanks for the information. I'm more than happy to donate to the chip-ins, and I plan to. I just noted that I didn't see any chipin group for internet advertisements, which i think can play a crucial role, specifically about increasing awareness about Ron Paul within America.

I was talking to trevor from teaparty about having an 'international fund' that would be separate, but would still be aimed at having a large donation on the same day. He did put up a page, www.teaparty07.com/chipin.htm. He however has since taken this page down, due to advice. Most likely his call to FEC from what I've read just now.

I'll try to get in touch with him again, as from these forums it appears chipins might be allowed. But perhaps instead we could get him to list or link to all the current chipins instead? This would get a lot more traffic from the teaparty site and newsletter. It would also get international supports more likely to spread the message if they know they and their friends can be involved. This in-turn would also inform more Americans.

[BrianH]

Our primary is January 3rd so we need to ramp up some action now as well as in late December. Grass roots supporters strength is in those DISSILLUSIONED with politics and these folks are very reluctant to respond to the RP official campaign pleas to do telephoning. But they will do lit drops on cars. We need to but local ads and buy slim jims but our supporters all donated on Nov 5th and don't have money for more donations. So I think we have the only Iowa chipin right now and we are first in the Primaries. Our chipin is at http://www.myspace.com/ronpaul_liberty

Thanks

Many chipins are listed by Dan at Ronpaulgraphs.com I really encouraged him to do this and he's got tons there now. By the time we got ours set up his page was full and not accepting new chipins. From what I can see there is not much action there in terms of donations. The grassroots in rural areas holds the key to getting a lot of votes and needs support.

[Julian Morrison]

There is one guaranteed legal way to support him: produce our own stuff. YouTubes, pamphlets, posting links to news sites, blogging, spreading the word. What we do by ourselves, for ourselves, is simply outside the scope of USA law - no matter how it's interpreted.

[Elijah]

Send me money and I will donate it on the 16th. I will not be able to afford much for the 16th.

Besides that you could donate towards a Youtube Ron Paul Blimp - YRPB.

[jordie]

Send me money and I will donate it on the 16th. I will not be able to afford much for the 16th.

Besides that you could donate towards a Youtube Ron Paul Blimp - YRPB.

I would love to, but that has been deemed most clearly illegal by the FEC. Its considered 'indirectly' funding the campaign by foreigners. If we went ahead with it and people found this post, you'd be in deep trouble and we'd might have trouble entering the US on travel. So we shouldn't go ahead with it at all.

We need to find proper methods for how international supporters can help out within the system. For now, chipins and personal works seem the best route. The last thing we want is to endanger the campaign through illegal activity and gain bad press. Its not like it is 'any press is good press' either, as I can't see Americans being too happy about it as the media would surely represented it as foreigners trying to meddle in American politics.

[kill the banks]

So many proposals, not enough dollars and action. I am pleading with you to support actions that are being done at grassroots level through chipins. Ours is at http://www.ronpaulinternational.com/ at the top of the list in Iowa but we've received no new donations - probably because you have to go through several pages and all ask that you have a green card or are a US citizen. These folks can give directly to the campaign. What we need is support for chipins. YOU cannot get Dr Paul in trouble because these donations DO NOT go to the official campaign. He cannot be responsible for what he has no control over.

We need massive lit drops now and local paper ad buys which are very cheap. And the media gives 10x the coverage to the "top tier" so even now many many people have never heard of Ron Paul or think he has no chance.

PLEASE SUPPORT CHIPINS!!! The grassroots really needs the support. I need to buy ads, yard signs and slimjims to get to the 12,000 voters in our county in Iowa but we have no money. see http://www.myspace.com/ronpaul_liberty to donate. You don't have to be a US citizen to give a few dollars to chipins.

Thanks !

ok brian , i chipped in ... every little bit helps

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9435/blackwsmallyh7.gif (teaparty07.com)

kill the banks

[ashevillejerry]

IANAL, but I am a paralegal, and I have researched this subject extensively, as I am forming a 527 soft money fund, and would love to be able to receive money from foreign nationals, but I cannot. I cannot give you legal advice, but I can give you my $.02.

IamVoting4RonPaul is correct. Direct or indirect influence by foreigners in US elections is illegal. ChipIns, PAC's, 527's, or other funds where the money will be used to influence elections are not allowed, either.

While this thread is titled about foreign nationals, there are some mentions about those in the US. With most ChipIn funds, the donors can reasonably expect a substantial portion of their contributions to go to the express advocacy of Ron Paul's election. Accordingly, it will count as a donation to his campaign.

I have found one way that is 100% legal for foreign nationals to contribute to sharing an important message of liberty that is very aligned with Ron Paul. There is even legal precedent on it. The details are at http://www.ronpaulmax.com/foreign_nationals.html.

Please pass word.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[GHoeberX]

IANAL, but I am a paralegal, and I have researched this subject extensively, as I am forming a 527 soft money fund, and would love to be able to receive money from foreign nationals, but I cannot. I cannot give you legal advice, but I can give you my $.02.

IamVoting4RonPaul is correct. Direct or indirect influence by foreigners in US elections is illegal. ChipIns, PAC's, 527's, or other funds where the money will be used to influence elections are not allowed, either.

While this thread is titled about foreign nationals, there are some mentions about those in the US. With most ChipIn funds, the donors can reasonably expect a substantial portion of their contributions to go to the express advocacy of Ron Paul's election. Accordingly, it will count as a donation to his campaign.

I have found one way that is 100% legal for foreign nationals to contribute to sharing an important message of liberty that is very aligned with Ron Paul. There is even legal precedent on it. The details are at http://www.ronpaulmax.com/foreign_nationals.html.

Please pass word.

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry

So basically what you are saying is that foreigners can only donate to http://nccs.net or other 501(c)(3) organisations?

[ashevillejerry]

So basically what you are saying is that foreigners can only donate to http://nccs.net (http://nccs.net/) or other 501(c)(3) organisations?

501(c)(4)'s should work, too, but none have yet been submitted. If any are submitted where donations would be likely to have any meaningful impact on the upcoming election, but still be allowed for foreign nationals, they will be added at RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com).

To elaborate on the inclusion of NCCS (http://nccs.net/constitution-activist-program.html), besides being able to legally accept donation from foreign nationals, it was listed for several other important reasons:
NCCS is geared so that, with your donations, constitutional activists can get copies of the Constitution into the hands of people at political events who have a burning interest in learning more about the Constitution. Because Ron Paul is the only candidate so clearly operating on constitutional principles, these folks are natural Ron Paul supporters, as are many of the Constitutional activists who volunteer for NCCS.
NCCS does this program on a frugal budget. Often, while the activists are giving away free Constitutions, they collect donations to get a whole lot more printed, so your dollars could generate double or triple the actual number of copies that NCCS promises to deliver.
The NCCS version of the Constitution is the most authentic. Many other versions, such as the one from the U.S. Government Printing office have been "corrected." For example, in many places the Constitution referred to united states, with small letters, meaning independent states that are modified by the adjective, united. The government version uses capitals, meaning a federal entity. This is just one example.
There is almost no limit on how much money they could put into this program immediately. Donations to most other charities would take too long to generate any result.I am not part of NCCS, nor do I get any part of the donations to it.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[Sey.Naci]

What if I want to get a Ron Paul t-shirt, jacket, or other apparel? Can't do that either?

[Peterjar]

Sorry, I dont see how Foreign nationals living abroad could possibly be subject to US FEC laws. This is nonsense.

Sorry no offense, but should we really be listening to a paralegal. Aren't there any international law people on the forum who have passed the bar.

I can't believe we have let our first amendment rights slip so far that we are even having to have this discussion.

[ashevillejerry]

What if I want to get a Ron Paul t-shirt, jacket, or other apparel? Can't do that either?

Again, it depends on your expectation. If you are buying a product and paying market value for it, that is one thing. On the other hand, if you buy a campaign button with a market value of $1, pay $1000 for it, and reasonably expect that your seller will use a significant portion of the remainder for the express advocacy of Ron Paul's election, it would be a violation.

Keep all the same facts, but change the price paid for the button to $10, and the law is the same, but the chances of being prosecuted get reduced. Nonetheless, I recommend we stay away from even that level of breaking the law. We can follow all the rules and still win, and that is what I suggest we do.

Yours in liberty,


Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[akovacs]

Has anyone tried contacting the campaign about this? I would think they would have a lawyer that is well versed in these laws.

BTW, if donating to chip-ins is illegal, there are plenty of libertarian/constitutionalist sites that do not specifically endorse him, but spread his message. You could donate to sites like lewrockwell.com (Though since they're endorsing him, they lost their non-profit, so may be illegal), or gun owners of america, or the von mises institute (mises.org). Your money may not be used directly in the election, but it will help reinforce his message even if he doesn't get the nomination. They're also used to working with minimal funding, so you can be sure that it will be spent wisely :P

[ashevillejerry]

Sorry, I dont see how Foreign nationals living abroud could possibly be subject to US FEC laws. This is nonsence.

In the same way you may not:
Ship illegal drugs into the US;
Ship money in to buy illegal drugs,
Send money to a foreign address for the benefit of a US person so you can buy illegal drugs,you cannot ship your money here to influence US elections. Even if you do not get prosecuted for it, the campaign can get fined, plus have to pay legal fees. Plus any american who assists somebody to do this has exposure, both criminally and civilly.


Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[Peterjar]

Sorry again, but you are a new member and your post makes no sense, the link doesn't help at all, and you are spreading fear about how we raise money. Sound like a cog in the wheel of the revolution to me.

[Sey.Naci]

Jerry, then how might I get a Ron Paul jacket and t-shirt?

I live on Vancouver Island, BC. Loads of Americans also live - and vacation - here. Not only could I use a new jacket and t-shirt*, but as a walking advertisement, I could reach a lot of people.

*Seriously. Am on very low income and haven't purchased new clothing for years. Might this be considered a legitimate reason for the purchase?

[ashevillejerry]

Has anyone tried contacting the campaign about this? I would think they would have a lawyer that is well versed in these laws.

The FEC information division is very helpful, and very knowledgable about the law. I have spoken to them many times, and I have never found them to make a mistake. They will even acknowledge where there are gray areas.


BTW, there are plenty of libertarian/constitutionalist sites that do not specifically endorse him, but spread his message. You could donate to sites like gun owners of america, or the von mises institute (mises.org). Your money may not be used directly in the election, but it will help reinforce his message even if he doesn't get the nomination. They're also used to working with minimal funding, so you can be sure that it will be spent wisely

The reason neither of those orgs and many other similar orgs were not listed at RonPaulMax.com is that they do not have specific plans in place to get the message out timely. NCCS (http://nccs.net/constitution-activist-program.html) does. Give them money today, and the Constitutions will go out right away to activists in the field in direct contact with voters.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[ashevillejerry]

Sorry again, but you are a new member and your post makes no sense, the link doesn't help at all, and you are spreading fear about how we raise money. Sound like a cog in the wheel of the revolution to me.

Dear Peter,

I may be a new member to this forum, but not new to the movement (http://www.liberty527.org/team.html).

What part of my post do you not understand? If you go to the link, I have even a cited legal decision and an FEC brocure written for laypeople.

If trying to keep RP supporters and the campaign from getting into trouble with the FEC makes me a cog in the wheel, than I am one. If showing supporters legal ways they can contribute to share the message of liberty, whether they are individuals who have maxed out, corporations, unions, or foreign nationals makes me a troll, I would have see the dictionary you are using.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com
(http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[ashevillejerry]

Jerry, then how might I get a Ron Paul jacket and t-shirt?

I am sure that there are websites, and maybe even threads, with info about products. It would probably not be filed under the international forum.

Some PAC's might not be able to sell them to you, and the campaign may not be able to do so either, because the sale of merchandise might still be considered a contribution. My focus has been on pure donations, not sales of merchandise. You might check with the FEC.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

[Peterjar]

In the same way you may not:
Ship drugs into the US;
Ship money in to buy drugs,
Send money to a foreign address for the benefit of a US person,you cannot ship your money here to influence US elections. Even if you do not get prosecuted for it, the campaign can get fined, plus have to pay legal fees. Plus any american who assists somebody to do this has exposure, both criminally and civilly.

Yours in Liberty,

Jerry
RonPaulMax (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

This also doesn't make sense. There is nothing illegal about t-shirts (that happen to have Ron Paul's name on them). Also, what if we dont ship them. We can distribute them in Europe, for instance, to get the expat vote out.

LEts get someone who realy knows the law to answer these questions.

[ashevillejerry]

Sorry no offense, but should we really be listening to a paralegal.

I would suggest you listen to anybody who has reasonable input, but come to your own conclusions, keeping in mind what is best for RP.


I can't believe we have let our first amendment rights slip so far that we are even having to have this discussion.

Sorry, but foreign nationals have no First Amendment right to influence U.S. elections.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[ashevillejerry]

This also doesn't make sense. There is nothing illegal about t-shirts (that happen to have Ron Paul's name on them). Also, what if we dont ship them. We can distribute them in Europe, for instance, to get the expat vote out.

Peter, As I posted earlier, I an not focused on merchandise. If all you are dealing with is a few T-shirts, it is unlikely that anybody will get into trouble, no matter what the law really says on it. My focus is on larger money donations, with no merchandise involved. That is where a real difference can be made, but also where there is more potential for trouble if it is not done according to the law.


LEts get someone who realy knows the law to answer these questions.

I would love to hear from somebody else in the field, ideally an attorney, who knows more on this.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[Peterjar]

I have found one way that is 100% legal for foreign nationals to contribute to sharing an important message of liberty that is very aligned with Ron Paul. There is even legal precedent on it. The details are at http://www.ronpaulmax.com/foreign_nationals.html.




Your post refers to your own webpage (???) where the same potential disinformation is presented in a more formal context. The text does not specify what a "donation" is. Is it a direct donation to a political org? Chipins do not fall into this category. They do not interface with the campaign. All is heresy until we get an expert opinion. I doubt very much the FEC even knows what a chipin is.

Europeans do not have to follow FEC regulations and they also have the right to free speech (mostly).

[ashevillejerry]

Your post refers to your own webpage (???) where the same potential disinformation is presented in a more formal context.

Yes, it is more formally presented. It has citations to legal authority.


The text does not specify what a "donation" is. Is it a direct donation to a political org? Chipins do not fall into this category. They do not interface with the campaign. I doubt very much the FEC even knows what a chipin is.

From: http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/citizens.shtml#contribution:

"anything of value given to influence a Federal election is considered a contribution."

(Yes, this is quoted from a brochure for citizens, but the law upon which it is based applies to any contribution, from anybody. For simplicity, because it has anchor links to the exact paragraph, and because the audience here is more laypeople than attorneys, I have cited the brochure.)

It does not matter who it is given to, be it the campaign, a PAC, a 527 or a ChipIn. I would really love to be able to accept contributions from foreign nationals in the 527 that I am organizing, but I may not.


All is heresy until we get an expert opinion.

Peter, you have no idea who I am. Paralegal is a broad term, encompasing people from glorified legal secretaries all the way to people who attorneys treat as unlicensed peers. I have many testimonials (http://www.inspirationparalegal.com/testimonials), many of them from attorneys, of my competence.

I am also the former Bylaws chair of the LP of California. This kind of thing is second nature to me, certainly more so than an attorney who does unrelated law. Such attorneys would come to me to present to them what I have presented on the link in my first post on this thread. Based upon such a presentation, they would come to the same conclusions that I have.

Call the FEC information division. They are very helpful, and I have never gotten any incorrect information from them.

From reading your posts, it seems you had some plans to encourage foreign nationals to contribute via ChipIns. You may be dissappointed that I and some others have pointed out how doing so would violate FEC regulations if such funds are used to influence a US election. Shooting the messenger will not change the truth of a message that you may not like.

Fortunately, there are other options for foreign nationals that are legal. I urge you to focus on those ways to help and spread the word to others.


Europeans do not have to follow FEC regulations

People in the US who accept foreign money have to follow the FEC regulations.


Europeans ... also have the right to free speech (mostly).

Nonetheless, the US has the right to provide for its own rules of how elections are conducted. If it wants to exclude foreign money, it may do so. RP supports this, too.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[fabijo]

What if someone outside the U.S. opened up a U.S. bank account, like through HSBC, then gave money through that account's credit card? The recipient of the money in the U.S. would have no way of knowing that the money came from outside the U.S.

Here is HSBC's international page:
http://www.us.hsbc.com/1/2/3/international-services/relocation


To speak to an International Account Manager, contact the HSBC International Banking Center:

1.877.850.4722 – Toll free in North America
+1.716.841.7542 – Call collect worldwide
us.ibc@us.hsbc.com

By the way, I'm new here. I've been a fan of Ron Paul since earlier this year when I accidentally stumbled upon a YouTube video of him. I just found this site the other day when I was looking for Ron Paul avatars to use on another site unrelated to Ron Paul.

[BrianH]

There's been a lot posted on this, but it seems the FEC just relaxed the rules to allow US citizens to buy ads promoting a candidate as Llepard as done in USA Today.

And confirmation by several on this thread that this is OK:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=39975&page=3

So the question is is the FEC going to worry about a non US citizen putting $50 into a US citizens paypal account which he then buys an ad in his local paper promoting Ron Paul providing it is not connected to the official campaign?

I hardly think so!

[ashevillejerry]

There's been a lot posted on this, but it seems the FEC just relaxed the rules to allow US citizens to buy ads promoting a candidate as Llepard as done in USA Today.

As far as I know, the rules allowing individual activity by U.S. citizens have always been there. It is a 1st Amendment issue.


So the question is is the FEC going to worry about a non US citizen putting $50 into a US citizens paypal account which he then buys an ad in his local paper promoting Ron Paul providing it is not connected to the official campaign?

I hardly think so!

Whether or not somebody can get away with something and whether or not it is legal are two different questions. I have repeatedly posted that small violations will probably not be a problem (although I do not recommend even them).

However, for larger donations, we need systems that are within the law and above question. While there are only a few people capable of very large donations, their support can make a huge difference, and we need to get word out to them.

Whether somebody may or may not get away with an illegal activity using their pocket change is probably not that important. I want to focus on getting word out to the large donors who need legal vehicles by which to help share the message of liberty. I encourage you to help get that word out.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

Jerry
RonPaulMax.com (http://www.ronpaulmax.com/)

[ashevillejerry]

What if someone outside the U.S. opened up a U.S. bank account, like through HSBC, then gave money through that account's credit card? The recipient of the money in the U.S. would have no way of knowing that the money came from outside the U.S.

Giving money in somebody else's name is prohibited. Helping foreign national to do so is a criminal offense.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

[liam]

I have scanned a few of the messages here and am not sure what the final answer is. However it strikes me that if a Ron Paul supporter puts something up for sale which has an indeterminate value i.e. something autographed by a celebrity, such as the guy who thought of the 5th November or built the website, then we as europeans can legally bid for such an item as can anyone else in the world! We have bought in competition with the world and what you do with the proceeds is up to you! We have no guarantee what you will do with the proceeds. Tonight I hope to buy the liberty dollars one supporter is selling and I will make a sensible bid as I want one, he says he will donate the proceeds but I have no guarantee!!

So how can this possibly be illegal, he sells something and will not know who the final bid is from, and we don't know actually know what will be done with the proceeds.

?????

[ashevillejerry]

So how can this possibly be illegal, he sells something and will not know who the final bid is from, and we don't know actually know what will be done with the proceeds.

?????

Expectation is the key factor, not what you are absolutely guaranteed.

Again, I repeat, I am sure that people will find ways to channel money into express advocacy of the election of Ron Paul that violates the regs and not get caught. That is not the point.

For people donating large amounts, however, it is imperative they follow the rules. Word needs to get out to them of ways to do that.

Please focus on spreading that word rather than on how to slip in a few bits of pocket change and get away with something.

Update: New thread here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=40239).

[fabijo]

I have scanned a few of the messages here and am not sure what the final answer is. However it strikes me that if a Ron Paul supporter puts something up for sale which has an indeterminate value i.e. something autographed by a celebrity, such as the guy who thought of the 5th November or built the website, then we as europeans can legally bid for such an item as can anyone else in the world! We have bought in competition with the world and what you do with the proceeds is up to you! We have no guarantee what you will do with the proceeds. Tonight I hope to buy the liberty dollars one supporter is selling and I will make a sensible bid as I want one, he says he will donate the proceeds but I have no guarantee!!

So how can this possibly be illegal, he sells something and will not know who the final bid is from, and we don't know actually know what will be done with the proceeds.

?????

In that case, I can't see how it would be considered an indirect donation. Once it is profit that a person makes, then it is that person's money. What that person does with that money is his/her business. It would become illegal the moment there was an agreement between the foreigner and U.S. citizen that the proceeds will be used for the campaign.

[fabijo]

Giving money in somebody else's name is prohibited. Helping foreign national to do so is a criminal offense.

I never meant to say a U.S. citizen should help this to happen. I just meant that if it happened, how would the citizen know that the money was coming from a non-U.S. citizen?

[ashevillejerry]

if it happened, how would the citizen know that the money was coming from a non-U.S. citizen?

Campaigns, PAC's, and 527's all have to report who the donors are, and the donors have to attest that they are U.S. citizens or permanent residents.

Please, instead of focusing on how to break the rules and get away with it, focus on spreading word to donors who can make large contributions that there are ways they may share the message of liberty that are perfectly legal.

Update: New thread here.

[liam]

So just suggest to members to post what they want on ebay and inform the forum and then anyone we can see if we want to purchase it. Remember anyone can bid for these items so they have no idea whether they are a supporter or not, its just some additional advertising for their sale via the forum.

[Aaron Wright]

I'm from Canada. I bought a t-shirt. No law against buy a Ron Paul Revolution t-shirt and wearing it EVERYWHERE.

[SteveMartin]

Here is a brand new way, that was actually formulated with help from international supporters. Visit www.RonPaulLoveBomb.com.

This is where the idea originated:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=455574&posted=1#post455574

[Peterjar]

Dear ashevillejerry,


You may be a paralegal, but I am a Ph. D. organic chemist. If you came to me and asked a question about inorganic chemistry I would refer you to a colleague in my department not provide advice myself. Unless you are a paralegal who is trained in international law, for example, I would still want a second opinion.

On a more general topic, this issue sounds like the issue of liable. It is very difficult to prove “expectation” isn’t it? Just like it is difficult to prove that someone says something with the intent of hurting someone’s career, for instance.

My concern is that this thread will cause panic and fear and will lead to less donations to chipins. PLEASE DONATE.

[ashevillejerry]

Dear ashevillejerry,

You may be a paralegal, but I am a Ph. D. organic chemist. If you came to me and asked a question about inorganic chemistry I would refer you to a colleague in my department not provide advice myself. Unless you are a paralegal who is trained in international law, for example, I would still want a second opinion.

Dear Peter,

This has nothing to do with international law; it is an election law issue.

I am very familiar with election law, more so than most attorneys. I have been involved in political action for many years. When I was the chairman of the bylaws committee of the Libertarian Party of California, the party was embroiled in court battles against the State of California on election law issues. The state wanted the party to be governed by the election code; the party wanted its bylaws to govern its affairs. Even in a biased court we won on many key issues.

I suggested you call the FEC to get a second opinion. Did you do that? Or are you just relying on your opinion as the second opinion?

Nobody has cited anything resembling legal authority to rebut what I have said. All I have seen are people posting ways to cheat, notwithstanding the law.



On a more general topic, this issue sounds like the issue of liable. It is very difficult to prove “expectation” isn’t it?

The standard is not what the actual donor expects, but what a reasonable donor under such circumstances would expect. That is quite easy to establish.

I have repeatedly said that somebody might be able to get away with some cheating. That is not the issue.

I started another thread because this one is too cluttered with people trying to get away with something. While that might appeal to a few people with pocket change, most donors contributing substantial amounts will want to follow the law, even if they do not agree with it.


My concern is that this thread will cause panic and fear and will lead to less donations to chipins.

The law is nothing to have panic and fear about. If my posts keep foreign nationals from illegally contributing to ChipIn's, that will be good. There are other ways they can help that are legal, and I want to show those options.

I would encourage you to spread the correct word, even if it means a course correction for you.

[Elijah]

I would love to, but that has been deemed most clearly illegal by the FEC. Its considered 'indirectly' funding the campaign by foreigners. If we went ahead with it and people found this post, you'd be in deep trouble and we'd might have trouble entering the US on travel. So we shouldn't go ahead with it at all.

We need to find proper methods for how international supporters can help out within the system. For now, chipins and personal works seem the best route. The last thing we want is to endanger the campaign through illegal activity and gain bad press. Its not like it is 'any press is good press' either, as I can't see Americans being too happy about it as the media would surely represented it as foreigners trying to meddle in American politics.


Hehe - I wish sarcasm showed up clearer than this. I would never ask someone to send me money like that.

[MDrollette]

The best way to avoid legal issues is to have all non-American supporters donate to the Ron Paul Blimp Project. This avoids all of the legal issues with international contributions and it has the greatest impact on the campaign. http://ronpaulblimp.com

[Hatband]

As far as getting non US contributions into RP's campaign, why doesn't someone just call the Clinton campaign and ask Hillary how she does it?

[Mark]

The best way to avoid legal issues is to have all non-American supporters donate to the Ron Paul Blimp Project. This avoids all of the legal issues with international contributions and it has the greatest impact on the campaign. http://ronpaulblimp.com

Again, it is illegal for non US citizens to donate to the blimp. Their Paralegal has said so many times and it's explicitly outlined on the donation pages.

By all means, if you want to, try, but if it's found out, at the least, the money would have to be returned.

FEC Regulations, of course, don't apply to non-US citizens, but they do apply to US companies like the LLC for the blimp.

Just a FYI/CYA

[Mark]

I need to call the FEC Monday to clear up some points, but, in the meantime,
I'm not going to solicit contributions from Foreign Nationals for my Church's Electoral Education Project.

We still, however, can of course solicit donations from FNs for the Church's general fund.

If FNs really want a completely legal method of helping Americans in their struggle
against the tyrannical direction the current administration is leading this country,
please contribute to my legally Incorporated Church.

It is completely legitimate, and has been Incorporated for over 9 years.

We are not brand new just for this point in time,
we have never asked for contributions before. Not ever in our 9 year history.

I opened a bank account for it several years ago with $5, and it still has $5 in it.

We just could use a little bit of help now, that's all there is to it.

Whatever you can do will help, thanks.

http://toomchurch.chipin.com/please-help-our-church

[tobefree]

Jerry I wanted to know your thoughts about having a foreign national gift money to a Ron Paul supporter. There is no contractual obligations for the Ron Paul supporter to contribute to the campaign. The supporter has free choice to use the money anyway he wants such as eat out or buy new clothes. However the supporter is more likely to contribute his own money to the campaign. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

[Joe3113]

We need someone in the US to start a "Help Ron Paul Supporters Pay Their Bills" Chip-in. So if we donate to it the FEC can't then say international folks were helping the campaign, but obviously if the RP supporters are having their bills paid they will be able to donate more.

[Mark]

Jerry I wanted to know your thoughts about having a foreign national gift money to a Ron Paul supporter. There is no contractual obligations for the Ron Paul supporter to contribute to the campaign. The supporter has free choice to use the money anyway he wants such as eat out or buy new clothes. However the supporter is more likely to contribute his own money to the campaign. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

He's probably busy with the blimp now and not reading the forum much, maybe I can help.

FEC regulations in this area apply to all people, regardless of Nationality.

Money cannot be given to anyone under the stipulation of obligation to donate for political campaigns.

For example, an employer cannot give 100 employees $2000 to donate for Dr Paul.

However, an employer CAN give a bonus of $2000 to 100 employees to spend as they see fit.

For example, if you have a friend that you want to give $100 to for Christmas, of course, certainly you can.

Legally though, you can't give that gift specifically in order for your friend to donate to Dr Paul.

[Mark]

We need someone in the US to start a "Help Ron Paul Supporters Pay Their Bills" Chip-in. So if we donate to it the FEC can't then say international folks were helping the campaign, but obviously if the RP supporters are having their bills paid they will be able to donate more.

I think something like the http://FiveForFreedom.com is for that to help NH volunteers.

Personally, my Incorporated Church Organization can't give to the campaign,*
or even buy from the Campaign Store (I even called them yesterday to check),

however, I as an individual purchased 20 limited edition buttons, (below)
which I'll donate to my Church,
and then my Church can offer them as a gift to contributors.

~~~~~~~~~
*Prohibited Contributions and Expenditures

The FECA places prohibitions on contributions and expenditures by certain individuals and organizations.
The following are prohibited from making contributions or expenditures to influence federal elections:
Corporations;
Labor organizations;
Federal government contractors; and
Foreign nationals (http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml)

http://www.ronpaul2008store.com/catalog/ButtonGREENbig.JPG

[Ozwest]

Got family or friends in the U.S.?

Encourage them to support Ron Paul.