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View Full Version : San Francisco Raising their Minimum Wage to $10




mello
12-12-2011, 10:49 AM
Unintended Consequences beginning in...3...2...1

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2073138/Minimum-wage-San-Francisco-1st-city-America-10.html

dannno
12-12-2011, 10:51 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IU0g7TEL8dI/TNuRAz5wx2I/AAAAAAAAAd4/UXn7zcl6Vrg/s320/Sign_Hill_sm.jpg

LoneWolf
12-12-2011, 10:52 AM
Can someone explain why not having a minimum wage is better than making companies pay people a livable wage? My wife makes 8$ an hour I get SSI because I am disabled together we might bring in 1700$ in a good month and we are pinching pennies to make sure the kids have diapers and clothes and for Christmas make sure they got some toys. Etc Etc Etc....I don't see why making companies pay their slave laborers a livable wage is a bad thing...I mean personally that's what my wife is treated like a low wage slave...she worked for Wal Mart made 8.90 an hour which wasn't horrible but barely livable...

LibertyEagle
12-12-2011, 11:01 AM
They are both basically the same thing. Both are job killers. Look, most of the jobs in our country come from small business. When government dictates the wage, that means that jobs that used to be available, no longer are created at all. If I think it is worth it to work for someone for a given amount, even if it is less than the government, in all their esteemed wisdom (sic), have edicted that I must be paid, what business is it of theirs? Shouldn't it be between me and the employer?

If you cede your ability to make these choices for yourself, and choose where you work, you have ceded more of your decision-making to the government. Right now, we make the decision where we work. If I don't think a company is treating me the way I want to be treated, or paying me what I think I should be making, I can quit and go work elsewhere; or start my own company, for that matter. If a lot of other talented people feel the same way and quit, guess what, that company will be forced by the market to start offering better salaries and perks, or the market will force them out of business.

But, just to sit back and ask the government to take the place of the market, well, that is what far too many people have done for far too long and is one of the reasons why our economy is in the toilet right now.

oyarde
12-12-2011, 11:01 AM
O h yeah , that will fix everything .....

Tunink
12-12-2011, 11:05 AM
Can someone explain why not having a minimum wage is better than making companies pay people a livable wage? My wife makes 8$ an hour I get SSI because I am disabled together we might bring in 1700$ in a good month and we are pinching pennies to make sure the kids have diapers and clothes and for Christmas make sure they got some toys. Etc Etc Etc....I don't see why making companies pay their slave laborers a livable wage is a bad thing...I mean personally that's what my wife is treated like a low wage slave...she worked for Wal Mart made 8.90 an hour which wasn't horrible but barely livable...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca8Z__o52sk&feature=related

silverhandorder
12-12-2011, 11:08 AM
Can someone explain why not having a minimum wage is better than making companies pay people a livable wage? My wife makes 8$ an hour I get SSI because I am disabled together we might bring in 1700$ in a good month and we are pinching pennies to make sure the kids have diapers and clothes and for Christmas make sure they got some toys. Etc Etc Etc....I don't see why making companies pay their slave laborers a livable wage is a bad thing...I mean personally that's what my wife is treated like a low wage slave...she worked for Wal Mart made 8.90 an hour which wasn't horrible but barely livable...
What happens if your wife gets layed off?

Diurdi
12-12-2011, 11:08 AM
Nice. More employment opportunities for illegals and other participants in the gray market (wage laws don't apply to them).
Too bad for all the honest folks who won't get jobs/will get fired.


I can't believe people still think minimum wages or livable income wages work.

Ronulus
12-12-2011, 11:09 AM
Can someone explain why not having a minimum wage is better than making companies pay people a livable wage? My wife makes 8$ an hour I get SSI because I am disabled together we might bring in 1700$ in a good month and we are pinching pennies to make sure the kids have diapers and clothes and for Christmas make sure they got some toys. Etc Etc Etc....I don't see why making companies pay their slave laborers a livable wage is a bad thing...I mean personally that's what my wife is treated like a low wage slave...she worked for Wal Mart made 8.90 an hour which wasn't horrible but barely livable...

Raising the wages causes a raise in prices. Will you be better off making 15$ an hour when it still purchases the same amount of goods and services, or even less? You might think 2$ an hour isn't a lot to raise it, but when a company employes 500,000 people that's 1 million extra a week in payroll. However not all get payed minimum wage and those that work harder and hold higher positions will likely not see their pay increase.

The minimum wage in Texas used to be 5.50 an hour. I was making 7.50 an hour as a shift manager at a small retail store. Once the minimum wage increased to 7.25 my wages went up to 8.00. I was now making less as I was only getting .75 more than minimum wage to do a lot more work than our part time employees. I ended up leaving the place as soon as I got another job offer. I now get 14.50 an hour with steady increases.

A company is better off offering higher wages to employees without it being a 'law'. That way it motivates employees and makes them want to hold on to that job and even raise themselves up in the company. If they are paid higher because of a new 'law' than they are less likely to be motivated to work hard as they will get that same rate at ANY job in the state, guaranteed.

I could go on if you want more information.

Travlyr
12-12-2011, 11:10 AM
They are WAY behind the times.

If they want workers to earn as much purchasing power today as our parents, then the minimum wage should be about $30.00 per hour.

In 1964, when silver certificates were fully redeemable, and coins were 90% silver, the minimum wage was $1.25 which is equal to $29.65 per hour today.

Ronulus
12-12-2011, 11:11 AM
Nice. More employment opportunities for illegals and other participants in the gray market (wage laws don't apply to them).
Too bad for all the honest folks who won't get jobs/will get fired.


I can't believe people still think minimum wages or livable income wages work.

That's not true either. The only businesses that really hire illegals are small business owners and most are in construction or some physical labor tasks as they often can pay employees with cash. If you do not have the ability to pay with cash you are not going to be hiring illegals and paying them under minimum wage.

dannno
12-12-2011, 11:11 AM
Can someone explain why not having a minimum wage is better than making companies pay people a livable wage? My wife makes 8$ an hour I get SSI because I am disabled together we might bring in 1700$ in a good month and we are pinching pennies to make sure the kids have diapers and clothes and for Christmas make sure they got some toys. Etc Etc Etc....I don't see why making companies pay their slave laborers a livable wage is a bad thing...I mean personally that's what my wife is treated like a low wage slave...she worked for Wal Mart made 8.90 an hour which wasn't horrible but barely livable...

As others have said, it's the same thing.

So, the question is, what would happen if your company was forced to pay your wife $10/hour and she only produces $9.90/hour for the company? The company would be losing money by keeping her employed, so they would let her go.

But wait, there's more!!

Not only is your wife now unemployed, but unless she increases her skill set or finds something that is worth more than $10/hour for her to do, she won't be able to find another job... and on top of all that.... ALLL of those things which your wife and others COULD be producing won't get produced. Raising the standard of living and keeping prices down is based on PRODUCTION. So the decrease in production will make things more expensive, and your government checks won't go nearly as far as they used to.

No good can come of a minimum wage, we need free markets so that if your wife is underpaid then she has the option of going to another employer who is free to do business and use her skills in a more productive way.

Darthbrooklyn
12-12-2011, 11:11 AM
HAHAHA What a joke.... Now the businesses that are not hiring at $9.92/hr are going to start hiring people like crazy at $10.24...lol

Krugerrand
12-12-2011, 11:12 AM
They should just raise it to $300/hr then everybody can be RICH!

LibertyEagle
12-12-2011, 11:12 AM
HAHAHA What a joke.... Now the businesses that are not hiring at $9.92/hr are going to start hiring people like crazy at $10.24...lol

Yup, that about sums it up, doesn't it.

Wesker1982
12-12-2011, 11:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMMN3UIQmEk

Ronulus
12-12-2011, 11:16 AM
They should just raise it to $300/hr then everybody can be RICH!

Everyone in China would be at least. Helping the poor people of that country is always a positive thing, lets get this law passed!

Diurdi
12-12-2011, 11:18 AM
That's not true either. The only businesses that really hire illegals are small business owners and most are in construction or some physical labor tasks as they often can pay employees with cash. If you do not have the ability to pay with cash you are not going to be hiring illegals and paying them under minimum wage. True, however many larger firms will either have to resort to machinery or to give up some market share. And this market share will then be taken over by Grey Labour Small Businessess.

Either way, the net social benefit is negative.

cooker263
12-12-2011, 11:21 AM
Minimum wage... gives a few people higher-paying jobs, gives more people no jobs. It's discriminatory against those who have low skills.

But... it sounds good, right? The end results aren't important.

:confused:

specsaregood
12-12-2011, 11:23 AM
Well next time I go to san fran I expect to find no homeless people about!

Rothbardian Girl
12-12-2011, 11:28 AM
Can someone explain why not having a minimum wage is better than making companies pay people a livable wage? My wife makes 8$ an hour I get SSI because I am disabled together we might bring in 1700$ in a good month and we are pinching pennies to make sure the kids have diapers and clothes and for Christmas make sure they got some toys. Etc Etc Etc....I don't see why making companies pay their slave laborers a livable wage is a bad thing...I mean personally that's what my wife is treated like a low wage slave...she worked for Wal Mart made 8.90 an hour which wasn't horrible but barely livable...
This is from a few days into my college microecon class:

A minimum-wage law may increase the price of the labor (that is, your wage), but it also reduces the quantity of labor demanded (so, firms will hire fewer workers). Therefore, you may enjoy higher pay, but this has a lot of "unintended consequences" as the OP mentioned.

1) Higher unemployment
2) The companies may pass the increased costs onto the consumers, so no real money is being saved
3) Probably (this is just conjecture on my part) insulates larger companies against competition, because they can afford to deal with increased costs of labor, whereas small businesses suffer

Now, you mentioned otherwise being forced to live and work in essentially sweatshop conditions. This should be a concern of many libertarians, but I find that it is often not sufficiently explained. The way to deal with that is alternative methods of employee organization. Things such as strikes and employee co-ops, as well as less of a reliance on the bureaucratic triangle mode of organization that is often found in larger companies can help improve workers' conditions. The typical right-libertarian response you will get is that "Sweatshops are a form of voluntary organization", which on a very technical level may be true, but honestly, if it comes down to that option and nothing else for a person looking for work, the human community has lost its way. There are better ways of organizing that don't involve state-enforced rules like a minimum wage.

The state protects and encourages patterns of inequality. Those handouts are meant as crutches for when the government breaks both your legs. How can an entity like the state that bombs people and steals your wealth via inflation be expected to protect you with measures such as the minimum wage and government benefits? Of course, there is no shame in taking them, because the state's nature makes it so that there really is not a whole lot of viable alternatives to taking its poison. If the choice is between starving and managing to survive somehow, most people are going to make the choice to survive. But these people can and should be focused on improving their lots in life by working to bring down the tyrant that keeps them down, not continuing to depend on aid. I can see how it would be a very difficult task, but it needs to be done.

If you want to read more on a typical left-libertarian critique of sweatshops, here's an excellent article on the subject: http://c4ss.org/content/8840

Philhelm
12-12-2011, 11:32 AM
Can someone explain why not having a minimum wage is better than making companies pay people a livable wage? My wife makes 8$ an hour I get SSI because I am disabled together we might bring in 1700$ in a good month and we are pinching pennies to make sure the kids have diapers and clothes and for Christmas make sure they got some toys. Etc Etc Etc....I don't see why making companies pay their slave laborers a livable wage is a bad thing...I mean personally that's what my wife is treated like a low wage slave...she worked for Wal Mart made 8.90 an hour which wasn't horrible but barely livable...

I have a college degree, and a certification on top of that in a few months, and make $14.00/hour entry-level. If they raise minimum wage, the cost of goods will raise to compensate, so it won't really help those working for minimum wage, and will certainly not help me or the middle class. Business will turn a profit, no matter what. They'll simply raise the prices, which offsets whatever "gains" are made in minimum wage. I'm assuming those on minimum wage will purchase products that use minimum wage labor at some level. It's important to look at the value of each dollar, not just the arbitrary number of dollars they are receiving.

gls
12-12-2011, 11:34 AM
Unions are the driving force behind the minimum wage because it limits employer choice. If the minimum wage is $8/hr, an employer might hire two people whose skills and experience warrant that amount. However if the minimum wage is $10/hr, it is no longer feasible to hire those two people, so instead a union employee making $15/hr is hired. Peter Schiff explains it better...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_IMuxMXd3E

Czolgosz
12-12-2011, 11:44 AM
There's a natural balance between when the free market is involved. Price setting creates ramifications not considered by the price setter themselves. Further, there's a natural balance between employer and employee via the union, free association is a good thing.

When third parties get involved shit gets fucked up, it's a simple and true principle.

Lafayette
12-12-2011, 11:44 AM
If the minimum wage is at the very least supposed to reduce poverty, why do we have still have so much? Why not raise it to $20,$50, or $100 an hour?

Travlyr
12-12-2011, 11:47 AM
The real question is: Why were employers in 1964 able to afford to pay a minimum wage of $30 per hour? Supervisors at the time were making the equivalent of $50 per hour. Are you doing that well today?

When you understand why minimum wage today is worth 1/4 of what workers were paid in 1964, then you'll have your answer. People were much wealthier then. The answer: Redeemable currency.

oyarde
12-12-2011, 11:48 AM
If the minimum wage is at the very least supposed to reduce poverty, why do we have still have so much? Why not raise it to $20,$50, or $100 an hour? Well , that would do away with fat kids :) , the govt agencies would not have to snatch them , nobody is paying a $100 for a happy meal !!

RM918
12-12-2011, 11:48 AM
Even still, pitch getting rid of minimum wage laws and most people will seriously think that will result in legalized slavery.

cooker263
12-12-2011, 11:50 AM
If the minimum wage is at the very least supposed to reduce poverty, why do we have still have so much? Why not raise it to $20,$50, or $100 an hour?

Just like the stimulus, meign - it needs to be bigger. So yeah, $50 min wage is a good starting point. Then let's go break some windows - who's in?

oyarde
12-12-2011, 11:52 AM
Even still, pitch getting rid of minimum wage laws and most people will seriously think that will result in legalized slavery. Current tax codes are legalized slavery .

Ronulus
12-12-2011, 12:00 PM
Current tax codes are legalized slavery .

Good point. Even though I may make 24,000 a year I have already had over 3,000 taken out.

oyarde
12-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Good point. Even though I may make 24,000 a year I have already had over 3,000 taken out. State , County & Federal ?

oyarde
12-12-2011, 12:13 PM
Good point. Even though I may make 24,000 a year I have already had over 3,000 taken out. And you are likeley young , single , no home mortgage , so you will not be getting any significant Federal tax paid back ?