People, It is On

[georgiaboy]

The talking heads, I believe, have gotten the memo to engage the RP folks head on and try to discredit them and Ron Paul's candidacy. Be on your toes.

First Rush earlier, now Hannity. In the same day.

Just caught a piece of Hannity's show. I'll summarize as best I can remember.

A caller came on and went right into stating he supported Ron Paul and his foreign policy views.

Sean and he went gloves off after that. Sean kept asking the guy, "Did America play a role in causing 9/11? Are you a Blame America kinda guy? Yes or No. Yes or No." over and over. The guy wouldn't answer the question initially, since it's obviously a trap, but finally said 'No', to which Sean then said, "Then you're not really a Ron Paul type." The guy coulda done better here. Needed a good response for this.

The guy got in some good points, like you can't change a people by invading them and forcing them, America did it internally and by leaving oppressive places and starting fresh here, not by someone forcing us into democracy by force.

Sean vehemently disagreed with the guy and stated unequivocally that this is where he parted ways with Ron Paul. He envisioned that if we removed ourselves from the Middle East, it would all unite eventually (generation or two from now) as one Islamic Regime, and it would be unstoppable. Therefore we have no choice but to stay involved and democratize it.

I'd have to give the bout to Sean by a split decision, but the guy held his own at a disadvantage (callers always have the disadvantage on these shows).

We can and must win this foreign policy debate. It's the last holdout. If what I heard is all Sean has got, we can overcome.

Engage.

[Sola_Fide]

He envisioned that if we removed ourselves from the Middle East, it would all unite eventually (generation or two from now) as one Islamic Regime, and it would be unstoppable. Therefore we have no choice but to stay involved and democratize it.

That is one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while, on so many different levels...

[69360]

His answer should have been, no the average American did not cause 9/11 but our governments policy certainly did.

Hannity could have easily been proven wrong about the middle east uniting. You have shiites v. sunnis and the Iranian sphere of influence, the saudis and the pakistanis. None of them particulary like each other and have little chance of uniting without a common enemy to fight ie. the US in their lands.

[georgiaboy]

abuddha, i know, right?

Do Sean and his listeners really think that way? Talk about paranoia gone overboard, sheesh. The odds of that happening are so zero.

[georgiaboy]

yep, 6, I thought of that one. Sean wouldn't accept that any little piece pointed in America's direction. But what you stated can be used as the basis.

Also, calling Sean out on his Wilsonian and fundamentally liberal policy would've been good.

They both started yelling a bit. I think it would've served the guy better if he could've been calmer and let Sean just go off and look desperate.

Sean also was talking about how Iran was a bully. I couldn't help but wonder how little the bullies were in his school.

[ShaneEnochs]

Unstoppable Middle East... kinda like the Soviet Union? All empires collapse. It's in the very nature of an empire. IF the Middle East somehow united, it wouldn't take more than a year or two for it to fall. The only thing it could do to hurt us is cut off our supply of oil, which means we would have to start drilling here. We have enough oil to sustain the United States for decades, I'd bet. Then guess what happens when it begins drying up? The free market takes over and finds a cheap alternative.

[Sola_Fide]

abuddha, i know, right?

Do Sean and his listeners really think that way? Talk about paranoia gone overboard, sheesh. The odds of that happening are so zero.

Yeah, like hey Sean, don't you understand that it is our policy of intervention that is CAUSING the consolidation of Muslim countries against the US?

If we stopped making all these Muslim countries our common enemy, then they would go back to fighting each other, like they have historically done.

And he thinks we can "democratize" them by force? Interesting choice of words. Force never makes people free. Freedom makes people free. We could "democratize" the middle east and the world if we had a policy of neutrality and free trade.

[georgiaboy]

exactly, Shane. Also, if the ME did unite and become a world power, no way they're going to start nuclear armageddon with us.


Another argument I thought about regarding the "Blame America" point: Sean, let's assume for a minute the US military had zero presence in the Middle East in 2001. Do you think the World Trade Center towers would still be here?

[georgiaboy]

and also, Sean, how has all the regime change we've been involved in thus far worked out over the last several decades, huh? So we need to continue this?

[klamath]

Yeaw hanity how is that democratized middle east working for ya. Every one that has voted has voted for stronger islam. Isn't that what hanity and folks fear?

[sailingaway]

The answer is 'no and neither is Ron Paul' and when Hannity pressed, "Ron Paul PREDICTED several times prior to 9.11 that terrorist attacks would come here because unscrupulous people overseas could USE our unwanted presence in countries to radicalize people. They would have had a harder time without that excuse. When it happened, just as he predicted, pointing that out does not make him 'blame America', but only raises the fact that we should reconsider what in fact is the best foreign policy for this country.

[Okie RP fan]

We've got a major fight on our hands. I, as well as others such as yourself have noticed that it's gloves off for the media against Ron Paul. They've received their marching orders.

Let's remain civil and steadfast. Continue pushing and informing others.

You're right, now's the time to engage. Let's get to it!

[bluesc]

They usually ALWAYS block Ron Paul supporters, and they rarely - if ever - get through. Weird that two biggest radio shows let them through today. It is definitely on.

[ctiger2]

His answer should have been: No! The average American did not cause 9/11, however, our governments foreign policy most certainly did.

DING DING DING ! ! !

[Kodaddy]

Hey, Sean, do you think if our airforce was patrolling our waters, instead of being half way across the globe, that we could've intercepted those hi-jacked in less than twenty minutes, instead of an hour and a half?

[ShaneEnochs]

The answer is 'no and neither is Ron Paul' and when Hannity pressed, "Ron Paul PREDICTED several times prior to 9.11 that terrorist attacks would come here because unscrupulous people overseas could USE our unwanted presence in countries to radicalize people. They would have had a harder time without that excuse. When it happened, just as he predicted, pointing that out does not make him 'blame America', but only raises the fact that we should reconsider what in fact is the best foreign policy for this country.

You really think Hannity would have let him say all of that? He would have cut the call off after "neither is Ron Paul" and said, "well, I guess you don't know much about your own candidate!"

[Kodaddy]

Hey, Sean , if they hate us for our freedoms, why hasn't Canada, or Switzerland or the Netherlands been attacked?

[MJU1983]

Related:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y205/MJU1983/FP_Comparison.jpg

[Akus]

I am afraid we will suffer a blow back if we all try to call Hannity and Hannity likes to prove them wrong.

First of all, we won't.
Second of all, we will look like lunatics, and we already have that reputation in some circles.
All the talk radio ppl will simply shout us down or talk over us or simply turn us off.

I don't intend to do this, and I seriously caution everyone else against this. This of this as Iraq. We will finally invade, try to run things our way, will not be allowed to, will be forced to leave by simply pressing a release button and will be made look like uncouth fringe loons.

Instead, talk to actual people. Pick your battles. Some people will close their ears and go lalalalala. Don't try to out lalalalala them. Move on.

[RDM]

The answer is 'no and neither is Ron Paul' and when Hannity pressed, "Ron Paul PREDICTED several times prior to 9.11 that terrorist attacks would come here because unscrupulous people overseas could USE our unwanted presence in countries to radicalize people. They would have had a harder time without that excuse. When it happened, just as he predicted, pointing that out does not make him 'blame America', but only raises the fact that we should reconsider what in fact is the best foreign policy for this country.

Exactly. This is why I hate when someone calls into these shows unprepared. They do Ron Paul more harm than good. If you're going to call into one of these shows you better have your talking points down and you better be articulate.

[georgiaboy]

honestly, when Sean came at him with, "do you blame America for causing 9/11?" the guy should've gotten offended at how Sean was cheapening the American lives, property, and treasure that were lost by trying to play word games with it.

[georgiaboy]

I am afraid we will suffer a blow back if we all try to call Hannity and Hannity likes to prove them wrong.

First of all, we won't.
Second of all, we will look like lunatics, and we already have that reputation in some circles.
All the talk radio ppl will simply shout us down or talk over us or simply turn us off.

I don't intend to do this, and I seriously caution everyone else against this. This of this as Iraq. We will finally invade, try to run things our way, will not be allowed to, will be forced to leave by simply pressing a release button and will be made look like uncouth fringe loons.

Instead, talk to actual people. Pick your battles. Some people will close their ears and go lalalalala. Don't try to out lalalalala them. Move on.

Actually, I agree with much of this. We should be phoning from home, canvassing, etc., primarily.

Call-ins should only be attempted by the extremely talented and prepared debaters (not me). We can win without this. This thread is primarily intended as a 'beware, be ready' for this new tactic by the media.

[AuH20]

I'm disappointed with some of the Ron Paul callers because they walk right into these traps. Here's a few points you need to arm yourself with before you call up a show like Hannity's.

(A) Muslim extremism existed well before 911 and some of this inflexibility is codified in the Koran. The kingdoms of Eastern Europe had been locked in a death struggle with Muslims for centuries. This belligerence didn't materialize out of thin air due to American imperialism. When you ignore this point, you may as well stick your face into Hannity's bear trap. With that said, blow-back certainly has riled up the natives for the worse, but don't make believe that's the sole primary reason for their angst. That would be disingenuous.

(B) The Arab world is far from being united. The Iranians are technically Persians, and even they aren't looked upon too highly upon by the general populations in Saudi Arabia & Egypt. Now as far as societal divides go, Sunni vs. Shiite to this day still ravages the country of Iraq. So Hannity is taking many liberties with this caliphate theory at the moment.

(C) Do not let someone like Hannity label you as an isolationist. Explain what you could consider a legitimate threat to the sovereignty of the United States. Take away that common-used arrow from his quiver.

[acptulsa]

Exactly. This is why I hate when someone calls into these shows unprepared. They do Ron Paul more harm than good. If you're going to call into one of these shows you better have your talking points down and you better be articulate.

If you get cut off in the middle of your first sentence, you're doing it right.

If you are speaking to real people and have a chance to finish your sentences, don't fall into the trap. Stick to these lines: Did we do everything we could have to prevent 9/11, or did we let the terrorists slip between our layers of bureaucracy? Do we do more good with less backlash shoving freedom down their throats, or by keeping our own freedoms, enjoying them and inspiring them to do likewise? If we give up our freedoms out of fear, aren't we letting the terrorists win?


(B) The Arab world is far from being united. The Iranians are technically Persians, and even they aren't looked upon too highly upon by the general populations in Saudi Arabia & Egypt. Now as far as societal divides go, Sunni vs. Shiite to this day still ravages the country of Iraq. So Hannity is taking many liberties with this caliphate theory at the moment.

In fact, the only thing that could possibly unite them is a common enemy--like us.

[Tod]

The answer is 'no and neither is Ron Paul' and when Hannity pressed, "Ron Paul PREDICTED several times prior to 9.11 that terrorist attacks would come here because unscrupulous people overseas could USE our unwanted presence in countries to radicalize people. They would have had a harder time without that excuse. When it happened, just as he predicted, pointing that out does not make him 'blame America', but only raises the fact that we should reconsider what in fact is the best foreign policy for this country.


Ooooo....VERY GOOD.....I like that!!

[georgiaboy]

Another great tactic might be to just avoid foreign policy altogether. Engage these guys with the stuff we all agree on, the 95%!

Hey, Sean, would you rather have a guy that you agree with 100% of the time who is 50% trustworthy , or a guy that you agree with 95% of the time who is 100% proven trustworthy? :)

[Tod]

There are a number of people pushing for an endorsement of RP from the Tea Party Patriots (the group says they won't endorse anyone but are just an "educational" group). One of the things that is repeatedly brought up is that there would be no Tea Party except for RP.

[raider4paul]

When people try to pull all the "oh he blames America" crap I like to use the following example:

Imagine you're walking along a sidewalk and accidentally step on a guys shoe. The guy turns around, pulls out a gun, and shoots you because of it.

No rational person would ever say that it's your fault and you're to blame. The guy would be spending a long time in prison. But no rational person would say you did nothing to motivate it either, considering you stepped on his foot. It's not a perfect example, but it seems to work okay.

[Carole]

The problem with Limbaugh and Hannity and the rest of these types is that they refuse to engage in rational discourse and they keep interrupting, over and over, just like in this example with Hannity. They "bully" the caller and arrogantly attempt to defend by the name calling and marginalizing. It makes me want to puke on them. :D

If they were actually intent on being fair, they know they would lose their argument; therefore, they avoid fairness and press on with their agenda. It really is degrading and immature, but their audiences never catch on to this and just accept it as the "correct" way to think and have discourse. They are not bright enough to discern that they are being duped and used cheaply and in such a derogatory manner. Disrepected even.

It is pointless to call them because they will not allow a conversation to take place.

[ShaneEnochs]

When people try to pull all the "oh he blames America" crap I like to use the following example:

Imagine you're walking along a sidewalk and accidentally step on a guys shoe. The guy turns around, pulls out a gun, and shoots you because of it.

No rational person would ever say that it's your fault and you're to blame. The guy would be spending a long time in prison. But no rational person would say you did nothing to motivate it either, considering you stepped on his foot. It's not a perfect example, but it seems to work okay.

Except it's more like you moving into the guy's house and start shooting at everyone who comes in the door.

[raider4paul]

Except it's more like you moving into the guy's house and start shooting at everyone who comes in the door.

Yep, but most people don't recognize that. Gotta keep it simple for the simpleminded.

My goal with that is to make them think that we were still innocent but maybe we did SOMETHING to help motivate it, and that that's all RP means. It makes them feel better about accepting Ron's views.

[KramerDSP]

Slightly off topic but good ammo for those who think Paul is weak. Paul could be the most ruthless wartime President the country has seen in several decades, but it would be because Congress declared war and he would go and win it "all-out".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKse3W0Yt_k


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKse3W0Yt_k

[milo10]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM202BVLf78&feature=related

[Carole]

We have enough oil to sustain the United States for decades, I'd bet. Then guess what happens when it begins drying up? The free market takes over and finds a cheap alternative.

And only in a true free market with a truly constitutional republic because for decades alternatives to oil have been suppressed by the government in order to enrich big oil. We could have and should have advanced beyond our current gasoline run vehicles decades ago. But in a soft tyranny and corporatocracy such as we have had for so long, the PTB will always suppress progress when it benefits their agenda. Patents are purchased or stolen and then buried never to be seen again. I often wonder that if a man like Disney could envision and accomplish what he did decades ago, there should have been no reason whatsoever that our country could not have become far more advanced had the free market existed with no interference from the government and corporations to allow progress to occur. But that did not happen. We have had precious little advancement in the twentieth century with regard to transportation. A hundred years and we are still using the same basic gasoline powered vehicles. Each decade in other areas, such as computers, look how fast we advanced. But not vehicles. And this is no accident.

[Crickett]

[QUOTE=69360;3815418]His answer should have been, no the average American did not cause 9/11 but our governments policy certainly did.]

And then, he should have quoted Hannity this: As then-Secretary of State John Quincy Adams explained in a July 4, 1821 address to Congress:

Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will [America’s] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own …


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/06/billions-for-defense-but-not-one-cent-for-empire/#ixzz1foTTGij4

This is what Ron is trying to say, and the point he wishes to bring us back to..

[georgiaboy]

How about this - kind of on the fence about whether it makes the right point or not:

I blame America for 9/11 as much as I blame America for skyrocketing unemployment, a falling dollar, our S&P downgrade, our $15T national debt, gas prices going through the roof, our unfunded entitlements, etc.

[Epic]

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