Help with neocon Father

[libertyfanatic]

It was pretty easy to convert my mother to Ron Paul. She has finally woken up to the police state that we now live in. My father on the other hand is a hardcore neocon even though he refutes this. He is extremely closed minded and thinks that he is an expert on politics and the world. A couple of debates ago, I decided to watch the debate with my father. We started talking about Iraq and it ended with him screaming and telling me to get out of his office because I "hate America" after saying that America was a foreign aggressor. A few months ago, he was the biggest Perry supporter. He told me that Rich Perry would cut taxes and spending and repeal Obamacare.

Now he is a Gingrich supporter. He is always talking about how brilliant Newt is and how he is an "idea man." I've tried facts about Newt's past with him but to no avail. I told him how Newt supported an individual mandate in 2005. He replied that everyone changes their mind and if you didn't, then something was wrong with you. He then went on a tirade about how the world changed after 9/11, even though healthcare and 9/11 are not even correlated. What is the best way to deal with people who are extremely closed minded when it comes to politics? The other day, I was telling him about the bill that would essentially suspended the habeas corpus. He refused to acknowledge that such a bill even existed because Bill O'Reilly had not talked about it. I then got him to watch the Judge for a couple of minutes where he talked about the Bill and siad that that was merely his interpretation of the bill. He said that if such a bill existed, then all of the media would be talking about it. It is extremely frustrating dealing with such a person. I really want to convince him to support Ron Paul but I can not break through. All advice is appreciated.

[sailingaway]

Tell him that having actually been in the military Ron thinks our recent presidents are ignorant about how best to use the military. Give him this, specifying that it is from a paper which is NOT a fan of Ron Paul's but is intrigued by his military strategy: http://www.nysun.com/opinion/ron-paul-will-be-missed-at-forum-of-jewish/87591/

tell him that with Ron Paul as commander in chief the budget could be balanced in three years without cutting medicare or social security, whereas Romney's doesn't balance ever, and does cut medicare. Tell him one reason Ron can do this is he knows military strategy having been so long on the foreign services committee and in the military, and knows what can be done with nuclear submarines and letters of marque, to save money from military spending. Throwing money at it hasn't won the war on terror.

[69360]

What does he think was the cause of 9/11?

[Okie RP fan]

Well, first off, while you definitely want to work on him, don't push too hard. Eventually, he will see the light. Well, hopefully.

Just bring up the fact that a President Paul would secure the borders and institute a strong national defense instead of offense. Tell him that occupying other countries also creates resentment, then, ask him if he would like China, Russia, or even a country such as Brazil building bases on our soil and taking our land.

[matt0611]

I'm in pretty much the same position, I got my mom to support Ron, but my dad is a Romney guy.
My Dad eats up whatever the neocons tell him on foreign policy.
He's so stubborn, I've stopped trying to convince him.

Hey buys into the whole "if you got nothing to hide who cares if they spy on you or can hold you indefinitely etc, they're the government, they're doing it for good reasons etc"

"Hey dad did you know that they can hold you indefinitely now without charges if they think you're helping al queda?"

"So?"

"Its against the constitution...it goes against our rights, what the founding father fought for etc"

"So what?"

...

Sorry I can't be of much help, but I know where you're coming from, believe me.

[libertyfanatic]

What does he think was the cause of 9/11?

That the Muslims that attacked us are crazy and hate us because we are Christians/free and prosperous. I told him about how the CIA overthrew the Iranian government in 1953 and he refused to believe it until I showed him an article on it. He basically refuses to believe anything that has America being wrong. He believes that America is always right.

[eleganz]

If your dad doesn't believe such a bill existed, why not just get the actual bill for him to read?or how about Rand Paul's senate speech? Does your father believe in protecting the family in case of disaster? The bill even targets people with 7 or more days of food stores as a suspicious terrorist act.

[Okie RP fan]

That the Muslims that attacked us are crazy and hate us because we are Christians/free and prosperous. I told him about how the CIA overthrew the Iranian government in 1953 and he refused to believe it until I showed him an article on it. He basically refuses to believe anything that has America being wrong. He believes that America is always right.

Man, I hate to say it, but he's going to be such a tough sell, that you may want to slow down and start putting your energy and effort in other people/places. All I can propose is to start printing off or showing him articles/evidence as you did with verifiable proof in them to counter his paradigm.

Best of luck.

[Spikender]

Ugh... I hate to say it, but I'm having the same problem. I've gotten to my mother and brother to see that Ron Paul is the right guy for the job, but my dad is a bit of a neocon who refuses to acknowledge that Ron Paul is a viable candidate and is likely to stick with Newt, citing that he has "Great debating skills and would wipe the floor with Obama in a debate". Don't get me wrong, he actually says positive things about Paul, but always says that Paul doesn't understand the dangers that other nations pose to us. Pretty much it's the same deal of getting hung up on foreign policy, even though Paul's foreign policy fits everything my dad claims. I'm trying to get together as much information about Ron Paul as possible before trying a serious, sit down debate with my dad, as I want to make sure my first impression on him with Paul is a strong one. I've talked passively about politics with him before, but I seriously need to sit down with him and try to convince him to go the way of my mother and brother.

[69360]

That the Muslims that attacked us are crazy and hate us because we are Christians/free and prosperous. I told him about how the CIA overthrew the Iranian government in 1953 and he refused to believe it until I showed him an article on it. He basically refuses to believe anything that has America being wrong. He believes that America is always right.

Try to explain the concept of blowback, if he is open to listening to that show him the you tube video of the interview with Micheal Schuerer on blowback.

What about Vietnam? He must know we were wrong there right? And now we have trade and diplomatic relations with them.

[James Madison]

That the Muslims that attacked us are crazy and hate us because we are Christians/free and prosperous. I told him about how the CIA overthrew the Iranian government in 1953 and he refused to believe it until I showed him an article on it. He basically refuses to believe anything that has America being wrong. He believes that America is always right.

Why not demand physical evidence that Muslims attacked us because of our freedoms?

[ONUV]

block o'reilly on his tv :D

[kylejack]

Have you tried arsenic?

[kylejack]

I'm kidding!

[libertyfanatic]

Try to explain the concept of blowback, if he is open to listening to that show him the you tube video of the interview with Micheal Schuerer on blowback.

What about Vietnam? He must know we were wrong there right? And now we have trade and diplomatic relations with them.

I'vee tried to explain blowback to him but he pretends that it does not exist. I've explained to him that Americans would be outraged if China or Russia put a military base in America but he says that since we are America, we can do what ever we want. He thinks that Vietnam was right along with all other wars fought during the Cold War because they "helped to save America from communism."

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I've come to realize that family members who are that hostile toward you when you talk about politics, that hostility is not about politics. It's some subconscious family past bullshit. You are trying to install MacOS on a Windows 95 computer. Will never work. Save your energy and yourself. Go work on other people.

[ForLiberty2012]

Tell him Ron Paul is the most honest and consistent politician out there. Tell him he's always voted against raising taxes. Tell him terrorism is an idea, not a group of people... that they are inspired by our bombing/occupying of their countries, not because we are Christians. Tell him Michael Scheuer, the head of the CIA Bin Laden unit said Ron Paul is "exactly right" on foreign policy, and the 911 commission report states that our meddling in the middle east caused the motivation for 9/11. Tell him Ron Paul warned us in the 90s that bombing Iraq would cause blowback. Tell him Ron Paul predicted that the housing bubble would bust in 2001.

Then, ask him if he would be okay if you died in Iraq fighting for the United States?? Does he think it's truly worth fighting and shedding American blood for? Ask him if he can tell you what our government's mission is and how we can end the war. Terrorism is an Idea.... It doesn't have an army... an idea cannot be stopped by bombs.

[69360]

I'vee tried to explain blowback to him but he pretends that it does not exist. I've explained to him that Americans would be outraged if China or Russia put a military base in America but he says that since we are America, we can do what ever we want. He thinks that Vietnam was right along with all other wars fought during the Cold War because they "helped to save America from communism."

If he thinks Vietnam was right and saved us from communism, you have no hope, he is out of touch with reality, we lost and Vietnam turned out mostly ok.

Do something to help Ron get elected instead, maybe phone from home.

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

I am sure he has disagreed with something at some point in his life. Tell him since you observed this anti government sentiment that you are now obligated to say something and call DHS. After a nice intrusive investigation for simply practicing his constitutional rights he might begin to change his tune.

[libertyfanatic]

Go work on other people.

Would love to but most of the people that I know don't give a damn about politics or the world. They are too caught up in their pathetic lives of reality tv and other trivialities. Whenever I bring up politics, it is usually met with hostility.

[kylejack]

Would love to but most of the people that I know don't give a damn about politics or the world. They are too caught up in their pathetic lives of reality tv and other trivialities. Whenever I bring up politics, it is usually met with hostility.
Phonebank and find Ron Paul voters in Iowa.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Would love to but most of the people that I know don't give a damn about politics or the world. They are too caught up in their pathetic lives of reality tv and other trivialities. Whenever I bring up politics, it is usually met with hostility.

You're a good person which means you want to share the truth with the people you care about the most. Part of waking up is leaving some people behind. That doesn't mean they are no longer in your life, but it does mean that your life begins to expand beyond their scope. It will feel a little lonely at times, but you can't save everyone. It just doesn't work that way. People begin to wake up when they choose. You can't make that choice for them. Your energy is best spent on phone from home.

When you become successful, they will come to you.

[Revolution9]

Would love to but most of the people that I know don't give a damn about politics or the world. They are too caught up in their pathetic lives of reality tv and other trivialities. Whenever I bring up politics, it is usually met with hostility.

Talk about it with your mom when he is around. When he butts in tell him you will be glad to discuss politics with him once he is informed as well as your mother is... His beef is yer supposed to be learning from him. When his ego on this is blown there will be cognitive dissonance. "My offspring thinks they know more about politics than me??!!" At that point lead him to lead you to RP with your mom's help.. Tell her "pillow talk".

Rev9

[Luieburger]

I grew up with a liberal, Clinton-loving mother and a conservative Bush-loving father. Most of my grandparents, aunts, and uncles loved bush. Thankfully some of my family now love Ron Paul. However, my parents were both registered independent before WA state got rid of party registration in favor of (pick your party's ballot) type voting.

I don't know who my dad supports, but he says "If Ron Paul gets the nomination I'll vote for him" (basically, anybody but Obama). He probably supports Gingrich. My mom doesn't say much about Ron when I talk to her about the topic. I think somewhere inside she is really tempted to go open-caucus for him because he is truly anti-war, but ultimately she supports Obama no matter what.

My advice to you is, don't waste time trying to teach old dogs new tricks. I can't change my mom, I can't change my dad. They have been around forever, and they are set in their ways. I sent my parents e-mails with a few Ron Paul things here and there that might open their eyes, but I don't put a lot of time into it. Convincing them that they are wrong would only make them defensive (possibly what your dad feels), and make them cling tighter to their ways.

Your time is better spent working for your future, phone banking for Ron, and spreading the message to your younger and more malleable friends. Keep watching debates with your dad, keep spending time with your family. That is good. Just don't worry if your parents don't agree with you. Mine rarely do, so I show up to my Ron Paul HQ regularly and make phone calls, donate, and send out Super-Voter brochures. I talk to my close friends, and I try to organize my precinct for the WA State March 3rd caucuses.

[Harald]

Try a different tack. Temporarily agree to disagree on foreign policy.
Let him to agree that Ron Paul is the only guy he can trust to follow through on his domestic agenda and not become compassionate conservative.

Show uniqueness of Ron Paul as a statesman, not a politician. Show that in the entire US history there were very few people and politics who spoke the truth and stick to their convictions no matter what.

Ron Paul is ahead of his time. He does not follow the trends, he sets the trends. He was able to put an issue of the federal reserve in the spotlight.

[Johnny Appleseed]

tell him if he's against the Good Dr. then he is against the constitution and thats down right super un-American...also being his son even if what you do say makes him think about the Good Dr. he probably won't let you know given the personality you have portrayed.

[Okie RP fan]

Would love to but most of the people that I know don't give a damn about politics or the world. They are too caught up in their pathetic lives of reality tv and other trivialities. Whenever I bring up politics, it is usually met with hostility.

You are not alone. I experience exactly what you do, except not with hostility, but with remarks meant to belittle or make fun of. People just don't care, they are too involved in television or petty things. Just keep up the good work you are doing, do not be discouraged.

As stated, I think it's best you use your energy somewhere else.

Edit: someone today posted that Dr. Paul had the most conservative voting record in the house since the 1930s. I'll try to find it so you can show your dad.

Here is the thread, link is in the first post:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?334796-Ron-Paul-the-Most-Conservative-House-Member-since-1937

[libertyfanatic]

Talk about it with your mom when he is around. When he butts in tell him you will be glad to discuss politics with him once he is informed as well as your mother is... His beef is yer supposed to be learning from him. When his ego on this is blown there will be cognitive dissonance. "My offspring thinks they know more about politics than me??!!" At that point lead him to lead you to RP with your mom's help.. Tell her "pillow talk".

Rev9

This makes sense. Since he is my father, he is supposed to be teaching me, not the other way around. I've brought up politics when they are both together but my mom is not very knowledgeable on the issues and the same things applies to her. My dad feels that since he is "the man" that he should be teaching her too. My mom refuses to vote for Gingrich because of his past and my father just tells her that she needs to get over it.

[Brett85]

It was pretty easy to convert my mother to Ron Paul. She has finally woken up to the police state that we now live in. My father on the other hand is a hardcore neocon even though he refutes this. He is extremely closed minded and thinks that he is an expert on politics and the world. A couple of debates ago, I decided to watch the debate with my father. We started talking about Iraq and it ended with him screaming and telling me to get out of his office because I "hate America" after saying that America was a foreign aggressor. A few months ago, he was the biggest Perry supporter. He told me that Rich Perry would cut taxes and spending and repeal Obamacare.

Now he is a Gingrich supporter. He is always talking about how brilliant Newt is and how he is an "idea man." I've tried facts about Newt's past with him but to no avail. I told him how Newt supported an individual mandate in 2005. He replied that everyone changes their mind and if you didn't, then something was wrong with you. He then went on a tirade about how the world changed after 9/11, even though healthcare and 9/11 are not even correlated. What is the best way to deal with people who are extremely closed minded when it comes to politics? The other day, I was telling him about the bill that would essentially suspended the habeas corpus. He refused to acknowledge that such a bill even existed because Bill O'Reilly had not talked about it. I then got him to watch the Judge for a couple of minutes where he talked about the Bill and siad that that was merely his interpretation of the bill. He said that if such a bill existed, then all of the media would be talking about it. It is extremely frustrating dealing with such a person. I really want to convince him to support Ron Paul but I can not break through. All advice is appreciated.

That sounds like my dad, except for the screaming. He's supporting Newt as well.

I won't even waste my time trying to get my dad to support Ron. I wouldn't even bet that he would vote for Ron over Obama.

[wide awake]

I would start with the following:

a. Does your Dad consider himself a fiscal conservative?
b. Does your Dad believe that the Federal Budget should be balanced starting in 2013?
c. Does your Dad think that our economy is a greater threat to our nation than Islam?

If he answers yes to these questions, print out the proposed 2012 budget and ask him how he would balance it. Be sure to point out that prior to a year or so ago:
- war funding was not part of the budget
- it was funded through "supplemental and emergency spending"
- the 2012 budget includes war funding under the line item "Overseas Contingency Planning"
- the proposed war funding for 2012 is 181 billion dollars (ask if he really believes that will come anywhere near the direct cost of these wars in 2012)

Next, ask him if he believes in Capitalism.

If he does, ask him if he thinks it is right that the number of no-bid defense contracts have tripled since 9/11??
Ask him if it is capitalism when 39% of our Defense contracts are no-bid and awarded without any competition between defense contractors?

If none of that works... say "Maybe you should be a liberal if you think the government should protect you no matter what it costs."... that won't work, but I love the look on people's faces when I say it after I realize they can't be convinced :p

[rpwasright]

Bud I feel your pain. I started a thread that sounded almost identical to this one a month ago. My dads a stubborn fool but I have got my Mom to seriously consider it. She even asked me what she could do to prepare for a collapse of the dollar. My dad would always try to change the subject when I brought up politics because he knows I'm hardcore libertarian. But about 2 weeks ago I finally got him to have a debate with me. When I tossed down his objections with actually facts he hoped out of his and started yelling at me. Thats the kind of debate these stubborn jackasses give you. I don't don't even bring up the subject anymore expect here recently I have been rubbing Pauls poll numbers in IA in his face (he always talks about how he has no chance). He is completely brainwashed by Fox News and especially Orielly. I want Paul to win if for no other reason I can rub it into his face for 4 years.

[Anti Federalist]

That the Muslims that attacked us are crazy and hate us because we are Christians/free and prosperous. I told him about how the CIA overthrew the Iranian government in 1953 and he refused to believe it until I showed him an article on it. He basically refuses to believe anything that has America being wrong. He believes that America is always right.

It's people like your dad, sadly, that would be marching with the neo-Stalinists in Russia right now, looking for a return of the USSR.

Move on to greener pastures, friends and especially family are the toughest nuts to crack.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

[Anti Federalist]

That's downright scary, especially when people like that are being urged all day long to:

See Something, Say Something.


I'm in pretty much the same position, I got my mom to support Ron, but my dad is a Romney guy.
My Dad eats up whatever the neocons tell him on foreign policy.
He's so stubborn, I've stopped trying to convince him.

Hey buys into the whole "if you got nothing to hide who cares if they spy on you or can hold you indefinitely etc, they're the government, they're doing it for good reasons etc"

"Hey dad did you know that they can hold you indefinitely now without charges if they think you're helping al queda?"

"So?"

"Its against the constitution...it goes against our rights, what the founding father fought for etc"

"So what?"

...

Sorry I can't be of much help, but I know where you're coming from, believe me.

[icon124]

Sorry guy but it sounds like your dad is the group I like to call - dumbasses who destroyed America.

Nothing can save this guy...he thinks he knows everything, but gets all of his ideas from 2-3 hardcore war hawks who profit from us being at war. Shoot him in the face and tell your mom to date someone real.

Lol just kidding about the shoot part...but I wouldn't be mad if I saw one less neo-con on this earth. Just wait until we collapse and then laugh at him hysterically for hours on end...


One question though....does your dad know all the details about Newt? Even the ethics issues, three wives, and the flip flopping? If so, and he still supports this guy that sorry to say this, but your dad has no backbone. or he just likes unethical shady people

[libertyfanatic]

Someone earlier mentioned asking him how he would feel if I joined the military and died try to stop Iran from "obtaining" nuclear weapons. I'm going to try this approach next debate and see what he says.

[bunklocoempire]

We started talking about Iraq and it ended with him screaming and telling me to get out of his office because I "hate America" after saying that America was a foreign aggressor.



Your father shouldn't be equating people with failed government policies. Our founders didn't.

You certainly don't hate 'America'. Like our founders -who risked everything to break free from empire, you also see the dangers of empire and are simply sounding the alarm.

Our founders weren't blaming people, our founders were blaming policy.

Does your father place failed government policy over the individual? I would think that he actually doesn't, perhaps he hasn't thought it all the way through.

Find a nice way to show him that.:)

After about 2 years of arguing about 'Muslims', my pop finally converted to Liberty after I sent him this:
http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin455.htm

Good luck! It is possible! :)

EDIT: My pop is a proud Paul donor this time around! From scared of Paul to donating a decent amount of $'s to Paul in a matter of a couple years.



Bunkloco

[Jingles]

I find family and politics don't really mix personally unless they are actually open to what you have to say. I have a bit of a luxury regarding my grandparents and I'll get them in the end. The perceive me as be extremely intelligent and feel if I'm arguing the case for something then I have a very good, sound, intellectual reason to be doing so. Once they finally connect Ron Paul + what I am saying they will be in the bag.

Personally, OP, I wouldn't be able to stand such hostile arguments with a family member and would just stop. If they aren't going to be open to it, it just won't work. Your father seems very prideful and is probably the kind that would take his son being right and him wrong very harshly to his ego. Father's don't like being proven wrong by their sons.

[Brett85]

Bud I feel your pain. I started a thread that sounded almost identical to this one a month ago. My dads a stubborn fool but I have got my Mom to seriously consider it. She even asked me what she could do to prepare for a collapse of the dollar.

That's funny. My mom is also much more receptive to Ron Paul than my dad is. I've gotten her to mostly agree with Ron Paul on foreign policy issues. It's just the social issues she has a problem with him on, as she's a hardcore social conservative. My sister said she's actually considering supporting him, and she's not political at all. It seems like older men are more opposed to Ron than any other age group.

[SkarnkaiLW]

If he is a hardcore Red vs Blue team player, perhaps show him this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hJTisovvjc&feature=related

and blame 9/11 on Clinton ;)

[Eric21ND]

Sit down and watch this with him. See what he says afterward. The end goal is to stop terrorism right? Either by force or other means, well what if other means are more effective? Tell him Scheuer would be Paul's Secretary of State and if he'd rather have Scheuer or Hillary Clinton?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEQviZPyeXk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qffUUbMJyag

[Akus]

It was pretty easy to convert my mother to Ron Paul. She has finally woken up to the police state that we now live in. My father on the other hand is a hardcore neocon even though he refutes this. He is extremely closed minded and thinks that he is an expert on politics and the world. A couple of debates ago, I decided to watch the debate with my father. We started talking about Iraq and it ended with him screaming and telling me to get out of his office because I "hate America" after saying that America was a foreign aggressor. A few months ago, he was the biggest Perry supporter. He told me that Rich Perry would cut taxes and spending and repeal Obamacare.

Now he is a Gingrich supporter. He is always talking about how brilliant Newt is and how he is an "idea man." I've tried facts about Newt's past with him but to no avail. I told him how Newt supported an individual mandate in 2005. He replied that everyone changes their mind and if you didn't, then something was wrong with you. He then went on a tirade about how the world changed after 9/11, even though healthcare and 9/11 are not even correlated. What is the best way to deal with people who are extremely closed minded when it comes to politics? The other day, I was telling him about the bill that would essentially suspended the habeas corpus. He refused to acknowledge that such a bill even existed because Bill O'Reilly had not talked about it. I then got him to watch the Judge for a couple of minutes where he talked about the Bill and siad that that was merely his interpretation of the bill. He said that if such a bill existed, then all of the media would be talking about it. It is extremely frustrating dealing with such a person. I really want to convince him to support Ron Paul but I can not break through. All advice is appreciated.
I don't want to be a debby downer, but it sounds like you did what you needed to do.
You presented facts and logic and he just stuck his fingers in his ears and went lalalalalalalalalalalaaa

Let go.
You said the name. You applied logic. You quoted resources and showed them to him.
I think if you push further, you'll just be in this trap, chasing the horizon or your own tail (pick your expression), trying to accomplish something you never will.

Hopefully, if Ron Paul doesn't win the nomination and Newt loses SOUNDLY to that Kenyan Muslim Osama bin Laden relative from Nazi Germany, your dad will see the light. It'll be too late, but at least your conscience should be clean.

Because you did your part.

[Revolution9]

This makes sense. Since he is my father, he is supposed to be teaching me, not the other way around. I've brought up politics when they are both together but my mom is not very knowledgeable on the issues and the same things applies to her. My dad feels that since he is "the man" that he should be teaching her too. My mom refuses to vote for Gingrich because of his past and my father just tells her that she needs to get over it.

She can nail him with the.."well honey..would you leave me for another woman if I was dying of cancer?". That will put him in a place where he has to think about who he is identifying with. Talk to your mom and make it your little conspiracy for good together. The idea is to make your dad be the one who thinks he thought of it. You lead him to lead you with your mom's help.

Rev9