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Anti Federalist
11-30-2011, 08:14 PM
This is just incredible.

Just one of the jaw droppers:


Ms. Mermelstein argued that Mr. Heicklen could advocate jury nullification only in a public forum and not to jurors. The courthouse plaza, surrounded by concrete bollards, security booths and 24-hour video surveillance, was not like a public park or thoroughfare, she said.

So, because government put the whole area under 24/7 surveillance, it is no longer a "public place"?

So, that's everywhere then, right?

Jesus...


Prosecution Explains Jury Tampering Charge

By BENJAMIN WEISER
Published: November 27, 2011

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/nyregion/brief-details-jury-nullification-case-against-julian-heicklen.html?_r=3

Julian P. Heicklen, a 79-year-old retired chemistry professor, has often stood on a plaza outside the United States Courthouse in Manhattan, holding a “Jury Info” sign and handing out brochures that advocate jury nullification, the controversial view that if jurors disagree with a law, they may ignore their oaths to follow it and may acquit a defendant who violated it.

Julian P. Heicklen says he merely hands out brochures.

Then, last year, federal prosecutors had Mr. Heicklen indicted, charging that his activity violated the law against jury tampering. Lawyers assisting him have sought dismissal of the case on First Amendment grounds.

But now prosecutors are offering their first detailed explanation for why they charged Mr. Heicklen, arguing in a brief that his “advocacy of jury nullification, directed as it is to jurors, would be both criminal and without Constitutional protections no matter where it occurred.”

“His speech is not protected by the First Amendment,” prosecutors wrote.

“No legal system could long survive,” they added, “if it gave every individual the option of disregarding with impunity any law which by his personal standard was judged morally untenable.”

The filing in the unusual case comes as Judge Kimba M. Wood of Federal District Court considers the defense’s request to dismiss the case. She has scheduled oral arguments on the issue for next month.

Christopher Dunn, associate legal director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said: “The government is dangerously wrong in claiming it can criminalize sidewalk advocacy supporting jury nullification. Other than the extremely limited situations in which someone seeks to influence a known juror in a case, jury nullification advocacy is squarely protected by the First Amendment.”

Mr. Heicklen, who taught at Pennsylvania State University and now lives in Teaneck, N.J., has said that he does not try to influence specific jurors or cases, and that he merely distributes brochures to passers-by, with the hope that jurors are among them.

Reached by telephone on Friday, Mr. Heicklen said, “Since when is telling the truth a crime?” He was preparing his own response to the government brief, he said.

In an earlier interview, he had explained that his nullification activism began in the 1990s after his retirement from Penn State when he openly smoked marijuana in State College, Pa., to get arrested as a protest against marijuana laws.

He says that he does not favor nullifying the laws against, say, murder, but that he does believe in nullifying laws on drugs and gambling.

He has also acknowledged that his advocacy on a plaza outside the courthouse at 500 Pearl Street was part of a larger effort that has taken him to dozens of courthouses in places like Philadelphia, Albany, Hartford, Boston, and Orlando, Fla. He distributes his own materials and pamphlets produced by a national group called the Fully Informed Jury Association.

Lawyers assisting him (officially, he is acting as his own lawyer) wrote in a motion to dismiss that prosecutors were seeking “to imprison a man for disseminating a lawful message about a subject in which he has an honest and deeply held belief.”

The lawyers, Sabrina Shroff and Steven M. Statsinger, said the prosecution of Mr. Heicklen would only draw attention to the nullification issue and would “surely convert more to the cause than poor Mr. Heicklen ever could on his own.”

But a prosecutor, Rebecca Mermelstein, wrote in the government brief that Mr. Heicklen’s courthouse appearances, his “Jury Info” sign, his writings, and statements he made to an undercover agent posing as a passer-by showed his “intent to target prospective jurors in particular.”

“I’m not telling you to find anybody not guilty,” she quoted Mr. Heicklen telling the agent in a secretly recorded conversation.

“But,” he added, “if there is a law you think is wrong then you should do that.”

The brief, filed last month, also cited one of Mr. Heicklen’s pamphlets, which says jurors may vote to acquit if they believe the government was “just trying to flex its muscle by making an example out of the defendant.” The brochure also “strongly suggests that jurors lie to judges in order to avoid being excused from a panel,” Ms. Mermelstein wrote.

She noted that historically, jury nullification had at times produced just results, like acquittals by Northern juries in prosecutions under the fugitive slave laws. But more frequently, nullification was used to frustrate justice, she added, citing hung juries in the 1964 trials of Byron De La Beckwith in Mississippi for the murder of the civil rights leader Medgar Evers the previous year.

Ms. Mermelstein argued that Mr. Heicklen could advocate jury nullification only in a public forum and not to jurors. The courthouse plaza, surrounded by concrete bollards, security booths and 24-hour video surveillance, was not like a public park or thoroughfare, she said.

Mr. Heicklen, who could face a six-month sentence if convicted, has asked for a jury trial. Ms. Mermelstein, opposing that demand, cited as one reason Mr. Heicklen’s ardent stance that juries should nullify. He would probably “urge a jury to do so in a case against him,” she wrote.

Danke
11-30-2011, 08:21 PM
Because they are not Article III courts. So Jury Nullification doesn't apply.

Rael
11-30-2011, 10:30 PM
Ironically, they cannot prosecute him without bringing the idea of jury nullification before the jury. Maybe they will engage in a little jury nullification.

low preference guy
11-30-2011, 10:31 PM
Ironically, they cannot prosecute him without bringing the idea of jury nullification before the jury. Maybe they will engage in a little jury nullification.

mind blown!

Anti Federalist
11-30-2011, 10:44 PM
Ironically, they cannot prosecute him without bringing the idea of jury nullification before the jury. Maybe they will engage in a little jury nullification.

http://memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11526/11803374.jpg

roho76
11-30-2011, 10:58 PM
Ironically, they cannot prosecute him without bringing the idea of jury nullification before the jury. Maybe they will engage in a little jury nullification.

Since Jury Nullification is a terrorist threat to national security they will invoke secrecy and move straight to a guilty verdict based on secret evidence.

ShaneEnochs
11-30-2011, 10:58 PM
I don't understand this. Are they saying that the area around the courthouse is not public property because it's being monitored?

Eryxis
11-30-2011, 11:38 PM
I don't understand this. Are they saying that the area around the courthouse is not public property because it's being monitored?

That seems to be EXACTLY what they're saying. It's completely illogical, but that's never stopped them.

Anti Federalist
12-01-2011, 12:01 AM
I don't understand this. Are they saying that the area around the courthouse is not public property because it's being monitored?

That's what it appeared like to me as well.

kylejack
12-01-2011, 12:04 AM
Ironically, they cannot prosecute him without bringing the idea of jury nullification before the jury. Maybe they will engage in a little jury nullification.
Which is precisely why the prosecutor has requested he be denied a jury trial.

kylejack
12-01-2011, 12:05 AM
I don't understand this. Are they saying that the area around the courthouse is not public property because it's being monitored?
In fact, they actually argue that he shouldn't be able to express these views anywhere.

DamianTV
12-01-2011, 02:22 AM
Which is precisely why the prosecutor has requested he be denied a jury trial.

He still has a Constitutional Right to a Jury Trial, regardless of what the Prosecutor wants. That would be the same as issuing a sentence before a verdict of guilt or innocense is reached, and also, he is innocent until proven guilty. I swear that the Impunity that the Criminal Courts are operating with are making the thieves and murderers look like a well behaved church choir!

kylejack
12-01-2011, 08:18 AM
He still has a Constitutional Right to a Jury Trial, regardless of what the Prosecutor wants.
He has a Constitutional right to free speech as well, but that's precisely what they are trying to deny him.


That would be the same as issuing a sentence before a verdict of guilt or innocense is reached, and also, he is innocent until proven guilty.
Well, if the judge denied him the jury trial the judge would preside over the trial, and could find him guilty or not guilty.

Travlyr
12-01-2011, 08:38 AM
Because they are not Article III courts. So Jury Nullification doesn't apply.
Establishing jurisdiction is of utmost importance.

Keith and stuff
12-01-2011, 08:44 AM
So New York is not New Hampshire.

http://freekeene.com/2011/11/25/new-jury-outreach-flier-for-all-of-nh/


Thanks to the folks at NHJury.com for putting together an awesome trifold for sharing information about Jury Nullification with NH jurors! Previous to this trifold, we had been using a flier from the Fully Informed Jury Association. FIJA’s flier had great information and was certainly the inspiration for this new NH-based trifold, which in my opinion, is very impressive. FK blogger Meg McLain did the graphics work (you can hire her to make your projects look amazing) and Rich Angell and Bob Constantine provided the text. Free Keene sponsored the print run.

Feel free to pick some up next time you’re in Keene, or better yet, just grab the files and send them to your favorite printer:

Side 1
Side 2

The best way to distribute these is at your local superior court as potential jurors arrive for juror selection day. Contact your local court for details on when this happens in your area.

front http://freekeene.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Juror_Trifold_Side1.jpg

back http://freekeene.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Juror_Trifold_Side2.jpg

Acala
12-01-2011, 09:11 AM
I don't understand this. Are they saying that the area around the courthouse is not public property because it's being monitored?

No.

Established First Amendment law recognizes that different levels of speech rights apply to different kinds of public property. For example, the courts would say you don't have a right to enter a court room and read your manifesto through a bullhorn during proceedings. And you don't have a right to stage a sit in at NORAD. And you can't enter a state prison and preach violent riot. So the courts have said that some kinds of public property - parks and sidewalks for example - are traditional public fora where the full speech rights apply subject only to reasonable "time, place, and manner" restrictions that are content neutral and the least restrictive possible to meet compelling government interests. For example, on a public sidewalk you can say whatever you want, but you can't say it in a residential district at midnight through a 1000 watt bullhorn. But other public property has less or even no free speech protection.

So what the court is saying here is that the area in question is not a traditional public forum and therefore speech can be regulated to a greater extent.

ShaneEnochs
12-01-2011, 09:30 AM
So the courts have said that some kinds of public property - parks and sidewalks for example - are traditional public fora where the full speech rights apply subject only to reasonable "time, place, and manner" restrictions that are content neutral and the least restrictive possible to meet compelling government interests.

That's a slippery fucking slope there.

kylejack
12-01-2011, 09:33 AM
That's a slippery fucking slope there.
I don't think so, I think it's quite reasonable. Hard to hold a trial if protesters are screaming in the court room while someone is trying to testify.

However, I think the prosecutors are going to totally bomb on trying to apply the restrictions to a plaza that any passerby has access to.

donnay
12-01-2011, 10:08 AM
Because they are not Article III courts. So Jury Nullification doesn't apply.

Correct! They are ruling under Admiralty Law.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?331835-Admiralty-law-common-law-and-the-sovereign&p=3780600#post3780600

ShaneEnochs
12-01-2011, 10:12 AM
I don't think so, I think it's quite reasonable.

The Founders didn't think so.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Acala
12-01-2011, 10:17 AM
That's a slippery fucking slope there.

It is actually a pretty well-established doctrine, the main points of which are fifty years old. There is still some arguing around the edges and issues with new technology. But it is pretty solid law.

The solution to most of the problem is to get rid of public property, but as long as you have public property with a multitude of uses, many of which are not compatible with unrestrained speech, I don't see any way to make much improvement to existing law.

I will give you a real-world example. One of the possible solutions to the Occupy ______ problem for a City is to designate a park where no permits and no off hours apply. Basically just let the protesters do what they want within the designated area so long as they don't create a health and safety hazard etc. This would be considered reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions. However, the City would have to give the same opportunity to anyone regardless of their message. In other words, they would have to allow the Nazis to camp out as well. That is content-neutral, reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions.

Acala
12-01-2011, 10:18 AM
The Founders didn't think so.

So it is your opinion that the Founders had in mind that anyone could freely enter the Congress or the Supreme Court whenever it is in session and have a rock concert?

ShaneEnochs
12-01-2011, 10:22 AM
So it is your opinion that the Founders had in mind that anyone could freely enter the Congress or the Supreme Court whenever it is in session and have a rock concert?

You're using the same argument that people use for the Patriot Act. "The Founders never envisioned the terrorist threat, so we must curtail your freedoms."

I don't know what the Founders had in mind, but did make a way to change the Constitution.

Anti Federalist
12-01-2011, 10:32 AM
I don't know what the Founders had in mind, but did make a way to change the Constitution.

That +1776

"Established jurisprudence" and "reasonable restrictions", my ass.

There is an amendment process, use it, instead of just ignoring the law.

That's what's got us in this mess.

Acala
12-01-2011, 10:33 AM
You're using the same argument that people use for the Patriot Act. "The Founders never envisioned the terrorist threat, so we must curtail your freedoms."

I don't know what the Founders had in mind, but did make a way to change the Constitution.

As I understand it, you are asserting that the government cannot restrict public speech activities on ANY public property in ANY way at all ever. If that is your assertion, you MUST answer the question "what happens when someone wants to have a regular bullhorn shouting session in the Supreme Court every day?" You must either say it is okay, in which case the Supreme Court cannot function as specified in the Constitution, OR you must say that some restriction is necessary, in which case you need to define the limits on the restriction. The Supreme Court took the second path.

Acala
12-01-2011, 10:34 AM
That +1776

"Established jurisprudence" and "reasonable restrictions", my ass.

There is an amendment process, use it, instead of just ignoring the law.

That's what's got us in this mess.

So you are advocating amending the First Amendment to allow for necessary restrictions on speech?

Acala
12-01-2011, 10:36 AM
That +1776

"Established jurisprudence" and "reasonable restrictions", my ass.

There is an amendment process, use it, instead of just ignoring the law.

That's what's got us in this mess.

Perhaps. But in theory you could have a situation where the inability to control speech in the Congress so business could handled would prevent amending the Constitution to allow controlling speech in Congress.

I think the much abused necessary and proper clause actually does authorize Congress to enact laws that are necessary to performing the enumerated functions. Having a Congress and a Court that can function requires some restrictions on speech.

Krugerrand
12-01-2011, 10:46 AM
The Founders didn't think so.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Just to clarify ... the founders only intended that restriction be placed on "Congress." To my knowledge, this is not a federal case.

kylejack
12-01-2011, 10:51 AM
You're using the same argument that people use for the Patriot Act. "The Founders never envisioned the terrorist threat, so we must curtail your freedoms."

I don't know what the Founders had in mind, but did make a way to change the Constitution.
The First Amendment doesn't mean you have unrestricted access to all government facilities. You can't speak out in a federal prison because they won't let you in. If you speak out in a court room out of turn, the judge will ask the bailiff to remove you.

kylejack
12-01-2011, 10:54 AM
Just to clarify ... the founders only intended that restriction be placed on "Congress." To my knowledge, this is not a federal case.
It's a federal case. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/nyregion/brief-details-jury-nullification-case-against-julian-heicklen.html

Still, I think the judge is going to find that the plaza is a public forum, and that if they wanted to, they could have closed off the plaza to the public and ordered him to leave. They're going to lose.

aGameOfThrones
12-01-2011, 10:55 AM
Just to clarify ... the founders only intended that restriction be placed on "Congress." To my knowledge, this is not a federal case.

New York constitution:


[Freedom of speech and press; criminal prosecutions for libel]

§8. Every citizen may freely speak, write and publish his or her sentiments on all subjects, being responsible for the abuse of that right; and no law shall be passed to restrain or abridge the liberty of speech or of the press.

[Right to assemble and petition; divorce; lotteries; pool-selling and gambling; laws to prevent; pari-mutual betting on horse races permitted; games of chance, bingo or lotto authorized under certain restrictions]

§9. 1. No law shall be passed abridging the rights of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government, or any department thereof;

Krugerrand
12-01-2011, 11:12 AM
New York constitution:

Well, with the correction of this being handled by the federal courts, I'd say NY law trumps any Federal law. He wins.