Would you support forced labor in the US prison system?

[Ashhhhh]

As a libertarian, I think society would benefit from prisoner labor. I am also a firm upholder of the Constitution and the Constitution supports prison labor.

"The 13th Amendment of the American Constitution in 1865 explicitly allows penal labor as it states that "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

"In 2006, $68,747,203,000 was spent on corrections. In 2001 among facilities operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons, it cost $22,632 per inmate, or $62.01 per day."

Why do taxpayers have to support prisoners? They should work just like everyone else does.

[Becker]

I wouldn't support forced labor, but I would support allowing cheap or free labor as an alternative to traditional prisons if it meant saving tax payers money. I don't care if it saves prisons money if they dont pass the savings back to tax payers.

[CaptainAmerica]

NO

[Revolution9]

As a libertarian, I think society would benefit from prisoner labor. I am also a firm upholder of the Constitution and the Constitution supports prison labor.

"The 13th Amendment of the American Constitution in 1865 explicitly allows penal labor as it states that "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

"In 2006, $68,747,203,000 was spent on corrections. In 2001 among facilities operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons, it cost $22,632 per inmate, or $62.01 per day."

Why do taxpayers have to support prisoners? They should work just like everyone else does.

Depends on the crime. Most in prison committed no real crime but a legislative infraction. I do not support that as the leaglities now are prosecuted as it will be used under current paradigms to generate wealth for a private individual and will of course be misused and the local hoosegaw sentences will increase to fill the need for labor by the private individual obtaining wealth from the arrangement leding to injustice.

Rev9

[Ashhhhh]

Depends on the crime. Most in prison committed no real crime but a legislative infraction. I do not support that as the leaglities now are prosecuted as it will be used under current paradigms to generate wealth for a private individual and will of course be misused and the local hoosegaw sentences will increase to fill the need for labor by the private individual obtaining wealth from the arrangement leding to injustice.

Rev9
I think the prisoners assault everyone's liberty by not only committing a crime but also by costing taxpayers nearly 69 billion annually. If they go to jail for a minor offense then they will likely be out sooner.

[kylejack]

Forced labor, no. Optional labor by prisoners for money that they can spend in the commissary, yes, except we need to be extremely cautious that the prison system is not being exploited by commercial interests. Right now it seems to me that we have a prison-industrial complex that is designed to imprison as many people as possible for profit.

[kylejack]

I think the prisoners assault everyone's liberty by not only committing a crime but also by costing taxpayers nearly 69 billion annually. If they go to jail for a minor offense then they will likely be out sooner.
Some of them didn't harm anyone and are there because they smoked a joint.

[Becker]

Forced labor, no. Optional labor by prisoners for money that they can spend in the commissary, yes, except we need to be extremely cautious that the prison system is not being exploited by commercial interests. Right now it seems to me that we have a prison-industrial complex that is designed to imprison as many people as possible for profit.

its ridiculous how much prisons cost right now, pretty sad.

http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/6_cj_inmatecost.aspx?catid=3
It costs only $1400 a year in food, but 20k in security? (facility operations is separate, and medical costs is only $9k a year)

WTF? What security do you need? The whole point of prison is to keep them locked so you don't need to pay personnel!

[ronpaulfollower999]

Slavery is illegal and immoral.

[Becker]

Slavery is illegal and immoral.

letting them live at the expense of tax payers is not immoral...right?

[Anti Federalist]

For profit prisons and prison labor for the MIC?

Both horrible ideas.

[kylejack]

letting them live at the expense of tax payers is not immoral...right?
We pay a price to maintain a peaceful society. Need to end the Drug War, though.

[ronpaulfollower999]

letting them live at the expense of tax payers is not immoral...right?

Taxation is theft.

[Ashhhhh]

Slavery is illegal and immoral.
Read the constitution. Forced prison labor is legal and I believe it is very moral. How is it fair that prisoners attack our liberty by commiting crimes then forcing us to pay 69 billion dollars annually?

[kylejack]

Read the constitution. Forced prison labor is legal and I believe it is very moral. How is it fair that prisoners attack our liberty by commiting crimes then forcing us to pay 69 billion dollars annually?
Perhaps the problem is that your template for morality is the Constitution, a document which counted blacks as three-fifths of a person. Something can be constitutional and immoral.

[Ashhhhh]

For profit prisons and prison labor for the MIC?

Both horrible ideas.
Forced labor prisons have been used in China and Russia

[kylejack]

Forced labor prisons have been used in China and Russia
Do you consider this a defense of it as a good practice?! Both have long histories of civil liberty violations.

[Ashhhhh]

Perhaps the problem is that your template for morality is the Constitution, a document which counted blacks as three-fifths of a person. Something can be constitutional and immoral.
I don't understand why you feel we have to pay prisoners for being in prison. Because that is what is currently taking place

[Anti Federalist]

Forced labor prisons have been used in China and Russia

Ummm...my point?

[kylejack]

I don't understand why you feel we have to pay prisoners for being in prison. Because that is what is currently taking place
Prisoners are paid for labor. If you don't want to let them labor, you don't have to pay them.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't understand why you feel we have to pay prisoners for being in prison. Because that is what is currently taking place

Because providing a profit motive to throw people in forced labor camps is a horrendous idea.

Everything is against the law, you commit three felonies a day.

Once the state runs out of "criminals" to work in their labor camps, it will come after you, and me.

[kylejack]

Ash, prison labor is a profitable enterprise. Even with the money paid to the prisoners (which is trivial, below minimum wage even) it is still profitable to have them hammering out license plates or whatever else they're doing.

[Ashhhhh]

Prisoners are paid for labor. If you don't want to let them labor, you don't have to pay them.
It cost 23k per year for each prisoner. I don't think they should be paid. There could be other incentives

[Becker]

Taxation is theft.

ok then.

[Ashhhhh]

Ash, prison labor is a profitable enterprise. Even with the money paid to the prisoners (which is trivial, below minimum wage even) it is still profitable to have them hammering out license plates or whatever else they're doing.
Yes but it is not necessary to pay them. With the right incentives and punishments you won't have to

[kylejack]

It cost 23k per year for each prisoner. I don't think they should be paid. There could be other incentives
And do you have any studies showing that these other incentives would be as compelling as money? Somehow I doubt they will be, and then you won't have enough workers to perform the tasks they're currently performing.

Also consider that many get out of prison and use that money to re-assimilate. It helps to get people back on track rather than going back to drugdealing or robbing or whatever.

[Anti Federalist]

Ash, prison labor is a profitable enterprise. Even with the money paid to the prisoners (which is trivial, below minimum wage even) it is still profitable to have them hammering out license plates or whatever else they're doing.

What else they are doing is building parts for the war machine.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/prisoners-help-build-patriot-missiles

[Ashhhhh]

And do you have any studies showing that these other incentives would be as compelling as money? Somehow I doubt they will be, and then you won't have enough workers to perform the tasks they're currently performing.

Also consider that many get out of prison and use that money to re-assimilate. It helps to get people back on track rather than going back to drugdealing or robbing or whatever.
Physical punishment and food rationing are just a few effective punishments. New technology could help in the physical punishment part. I'm sure there are many incentives that can be used as well.

[ronpaulfollower999]

Physical punishment and food rationing are just a few effective punishments. New technology could help in the physical punishment part. I'm sure there are many incentives that can be used as well.

Wait…so we should torture prisoners?

[kylejack]

Physical punishment and food rationing are just a few effective punishments. New technology could help in the physical punishment part. I'm sure there are many incentives that can be used as well.
Well, I don't believe in hitting people or starving them as a means of rehabilitating them. I don't believe these tactics work well.

[Ashhhhh]

Wait…so we should torture prisoners?
Not torture. But physical punishments work extremely well to mentally condition prisoners. In end it rarely needs to be used. Watch a video from Russian prison camps and see how completely obedient and compliant they are

[kylejack]

You joined a few days ago and are advocating torture of criminals if they don't work. It sure looks like a troll to me.

[Ashhhhh]

You joined a few days ago and are advocating torture of criminals if they don't work. It sure looks like a troll to me.
No I'm advocating an effective means of psychological conditioning. I don't understand why people think criminals are victims? You really think it is fair that we pay for them to sit around and do nothing while we work?

[Becker]

No I'm advocating an effective means of psychological conditioning. I don't understand why people think criminals are victims? You really think it is fair that we pay for them to sit around and do nothing while we work?

because this is America, we defend criminals and complain the government is too big.

[kylejack]

No I'm advocating an effective means of psychological conditioning. I don't understand why people think criminals are victims? You really think it is fair that we pay for them to sit around and do nothing while we work?
Paid to sit around and do nothing? Which prison does that?

[Ashhhhh]

Paid to sit around and do nothing? Which prison does that?
It cost around 23k per prisoner every year. Costs that taxpayers pay

[kylejack]

It cost around 23k per prisoner every year. Costs that taxpayers pay
That is a cost of segregating them from society, not money paid to the prisoner. If you want to save the money, I'm sure they'd be happy to be back on the streets. We imprison them for our benefit.

[Ashhhhh]

That is a cost of segregating them from society, not money paid to the prisoner. If you want to save the money, I'm sure they'd be happy to be back on the streets. We imprison them for our benefit.
lulz i don't even.....................I'm sure all the murderers, rapists, thieves and child molesters would love to be free. But actually there are a large number of people in prison that enjoy being there.

[kylejack]

lulz i don't even.....................I'm sure all the murderers, rapists, thieves and child molesters would love to be free. But actually there are a large number of people in prison that enjoy being there.
Probably not the kind of people we want mixing with society. So I'm glad they're there.

[Becker]

Paid to sit around and do nothing? Which prison does that?

oh, what do they do then, I mean, what do they do that is of value to us?

[Becker]

Probably not the kind of people we want mixing with society. So I'm glad they're there.

i would prefer they be executed, but if not, imprisonment is 2nd best.

[Becker]

That is a cost of segregating them from society, not money paid to the prisoner. If you want to save the money, I'm sure they'd be happy to be back on the streets. We imprison them for our benefit.

why isn't executing them an option?

[Ashhhhh]

Probably not the kind of people we want mixing with society. So I'm glad they're there.
Exactly we don't owe them anything. They aren't victims. In fact most of them have victims. Look, all I'm saying is that instead of siting around all day doing nothing prisoners should work like you and I work to pay for them. It would also be a deterrent that would keep other people from committing crimes

[ronpaulfollower999]

i would prefer they be executed, but if not, imprisonment is 2nd best.

Bringing back the guillotine would be the cheapest option. You could even charge spectators to help pay for the cost.


/sarcasm

[kylejack]

oh, what do they do then, I mean, what do they do that is of value to us?
It is of value to me not having dangerous people walk the streets.

[kylejack]

why isn't executing them an option?
Because the justice system sometimes gets it wrong and executing innocent people is unacceptable.

[Becker]

It is of value to me not having dangerous people walk the streets.

that wasn't the question, the question was, "what do they DO" other than "sit around and do nothing"?

[Becker]

Because the justice system sometimes gets it wrong and executing innocent people is unacceptable.

I'm glad I don't have your empathy.

[Ashhhhh]

It shows you how entitled our society is when people get angry b/c you think that prisoners should work instead of sit around doing nothing. Prisoner labor is covered in our Constitution

[cindy25]

most systems pay a minimal amount to the inmate for work. 15c an hour or something like it.

[Becker]

It shows you how entitled our society is when people get angry b/c you think that prisoners should work instead of sit around doing nothing. Prisoner labor is covered in our Constitution

LOL exactly. see why I don't believe in rights? (j/k) I admit I am extreme, but its funny how people have become so sensitive to criminals.

[Becker]

most systems pay a minimal amount to the inmate for work. 15c an hour or something like it.

which would be nice if it was savings passed on the tax payers, but it isnt.

[Ashhhhh]

LOL exactly. see why I don't believe in rights? (j/k) I admit I am extreme, but its funny how people have become so sensitive to criminals.
Exactly the work could be as simple as pedaling on a bike to make electricity.
Could also use them to undercut factory jobs that have left the US. The government takes the "wage" as profit. The profit is used to reduce taxes

[Anti Federalist]

lulz i don't even.....................I'm sure all the murderers, rapists, thieves and child molesters would love to be free. But actually there are a large number of people in prison that enjoy being there.

They get "institutionalized" just like people on the outside who think they are free.

But I can't think of a single case where somebody "enjoyed" it.

And I've been there.

[Becker]

Exactly the work could be as simple as pedaling on a bike to make electricity.
Could also use them to undercut factory jobs that have left the US. The government takes the "wage" as profit. The profit is used to reduce taxes


you know what's funny? why haven't any libertarian millionaires invested in a private model prison whose goal is to be efficient and cheap?

[Anti Federalist]

Exactly the work could be as simple as pedaling on a bike to make electricity.
Could also use them to undercut factory jobs that have left the US. The government takes the "wage" as profit. The profit is used to reduce taxes

Wow, there's a brilliant idea.

Make middle class working folks compete against prison wages for jobs that have already been outsourced.

This thread has gotten way too stupid.

I'm out.

[Nastynate]

This can only work if the inmates agree to this, perhaps they'll get better living conditions and working everyday would help pass the time. Only voluntarily because anything else is slavery.

[Ashhhhh]

you know what's funny? why haven't any libertarian millionaires invested in a private model prison whose goal is to be efficient and cheap?
I'm sure you'll tell me

[Ashhhhh]

This can only work if the inmates agree to this, perhaps they'll get better living conditions and working everyday would help pass the time. Only voluntarily because anything else is slavery.
No. Just no. Under the Constitution it is not slavery. As I said before, a system of rewards and punishments will ensure that they will work

[ryanmkeisling]

Isn't the reason our prisons are so full the fact that we lock up non violent drug "criminals" en masse? Wouldn't the first step be to address unjust and immoral laws?

[kylejack]

that wasn't the question, the question was, "what do they DO" other than "sit around and do nothing"?
That's the punishment, and there are programs in prisons to rehabilitate them.

[kylejack]

you know what's funny? why haven't any libertarian millionaires invested in a private model prison whose goal is to be efficient and cheap?
They have. The whole system is called the prison-industrial complex. The prisons get paid by the state to imprison the people, and the prison companies pay politicians big bucks to keep the inmates coming, hence the Drug War.

[kylejack]

No. Just no. Under the Constitution it is not slavery. As I said before, a system of rewards and punishments will ensure that they will work
That is not correct. The Constitution says that slavery is not allowed, except as punishment for a crime. That means the Constitution acknowledges that it is slavery, and that it is permitted in this case.

[Becker]

That's the punishment, and there are programs in prisons to rehabilitate them.

oh, I know that's the punishment, so you're not disputing that they sit around and do nothing most of the time then.

[Becker]

They have. The whole system is called the prison-industrial complex. The prisons get paid by the state to imprison the people, and the prison companies pay politicians big bucks to keep the inmates coming, hence the Drug War.

they're not saving money for tax payers, which is my goal.

[Delivered4000]

Release non-violent offenders of victimless crimes (marijuana possession) and you immediately save on 2 million prisoners. The US is a carceral state, with the highest rate of incarceration per 100,000 in the world

[kylejack]

oh, I know that's the punishment, so you're not disputing that they sit around and do nothing most of the time then.
I don't have statistics on what percentage of the time they sit around, no.

[Becker]

Release non-violent offenders of victimless crimes (marijuana possession) and you immediately save on 2 million prisoners. The US is a carceral state, with the highest rate of incarceration per 100,000 in the world

also one of the most liberal on immigration and most aggressive on multicultural integration.

[Danke]

Finally we'll be able to compete with China's labor!

[kushaze]

The first step to fixing the prison system is by fixing the statutes of individual states. You have to fix it at a state level. Once the laws make sense and the sentencing guidelines make sense you can work on rehabilitation/punishment issues. I don't think it was the constitution's intention to turn the prison system into an industry.

[Xenophage]

No I'm advocating an effective means of psychological conditioning. I don't understand why people think criminals are victims? You really think it is fair that we pay for them to sit around and do nothing while we work?

Many criminals ARE victims. Victims of a police state. Victims of violations against their individual rights and sovereignty. Locked away with the murderers and thugs are so-called "tax cheats" and harmless stoners. Not to mention, a fair number of incarcerated individuals are innocent to begin with.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

I don't know why there's so much backlash against this. Maybe we need a more friendly term, Frank Luntz style. Community Service.
Anyway I say no, because that would make imprisoning people profitable.

[Johnny Appleseed]

I think they should be used to make whatever the government uses,furniture, clothing, food. Let them maintain roads and parks all the while teaching a skill they can use on the outside. Most people are in jail because they have no purpose in life.

on another note when the shtf and all the prisoners are set lose I plan to takeover a prison and make it my fort

[Demigod]

if its corruption YES.If he stole money he has to work until he pays them back

[tod evans]

I think they should be used to make whatever the government uses,furniture, clothing, food. Let them maintain roads and parks all the while teaching a skill they can use on the outside. Most people are in jail because they have no purpose in life.

on another note when the shtf and all the prisoners are set lose I plan to takeover a prison and make it my fort


The federal system (B.O.P.) does mandate that every prisoner who is not in solitary confinment work 8hrs per day.
Some of those jobs maintain the facility while others are for UNICOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Industries).
UNICOR is of itself a governmental scam where the military is mandated to purchase from them over private businesses.
Thinking prisoners in the B.O.P. "sit on their asses" is a fallacy, and the statement made by the propaganda machine that "employment at UNICOR is voluntary" is very missleading. If a prisoner chooses not to work for UNICOR they must rely on outside sources for money, so those who`s families have been financially ruined by their federal conviction are realistically "forced" to seek employment at UNICOR.

As far as "on another note when the shtf and all the prisoners are set lose".....you can bet your bottom dollar that if the "shtf" not one federal prisoner will leave the walls unless he's in a body bag.

Reality really is different than the movies and i sincerely hope none of you folks ever find out.

[Carole]

Depends on the crime. Most in prison committed no real crime but a legislative infraction. I do not support that as the leaglities now are prosecuted as it will be used under current paradigms to generate wealth for a private individual and will of course be misused and the local hoosegaw sentences will increase to fill the need for labor by the private individual obtaining wealth from the arrangement leding to injustice.

Rev9


^ This, unfortunately.

[DamianTV]

There is no possible way I would support a Forced Labor System for Inmates as long as we have a Corrupted Legal System. We need to set the example of how not to turn people into Slaves, and with the state of our current Legal System, that is impossible. We would be setting the worst possible example that one could set. "Oh, did I find some pot on you? Yep, off to 20 years of Hard Labor while I, the Uniformed Criminal get to enjoy my life of leisure at your expense."

When proposing ideas of how to make society better, think about those that would take advantage can take advantage, and then you can conclude for yourself whether or not said change is a good idea or not.

[Carole]

I don't know why there's so much backlash against this. Maybe we need a more friendly term, Frank Luntz style. Community Service.
Anyway I say no, because that would make imprisoning people profitable.

I read somewhere a couple years ago that it already is profitable.

Here is one story:

Wackenhut: Prisons, profits and golf umbrellas
h xxp://www.greenleft.org.au/node/24971

[pcosmar]

NO.
I do not even support the present prison system.

[amy31416]

For fuck's sake--we just had a case here in PA where a judge was getting kickbacks for sending kids to prison--and several of you are advocating making it EASIER for these scumbags to profit off of the destruction of people?

I'm all for it if it's tried and convicted serial rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc. But we are so damned far from having a decent justice system that to suggest it is asinine. WTF is wrong with you people? Are you not paying attention?

[pcosmar]

As a libertarian, I think society would benefit from prisoner labor.


Forced labor prisons have been used in China and Russia

WTF?

You are no libertarian. I do not even believe you understand the concept of liberty.

Folks,, Read the post history.

:(

[nobody's_hero]

I don't know if anyone remembers Sheriff Dart from Cook County (the one who wouldn't just evict people from their homes because the banks said to do so), but he came up with a plan to let inmates work in the county animal shelter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgIr-__CFsA

Is there a potential for abuse? Sure. That worries me. It should NEVER be forced. However, if inmates are given options that they feel will benefit them in terms of learning skills they can use when their sentences are up, then, in my opinion, they should be given that option, even if it means a private business will make some money in the process.

There are programs that allow inmates to get some useful skills while they're wasting away in prison. When you look at it in that regard, yes, we should be letting prisoners try to better themselves instead of just turning them loose after their sentences and leaving them with the same lack of skills they had when they went in (which means they will probably return straight to crime). An even better program that I've heard about is this one, which seems pretty damn cool:

You may want to skip to 12:30 mark, if you just want to see how the prison auto restoration program works:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM3OLGsggII

I do think our prison system needs reform.

—Our whole legal system needs reform because we need to first define what a 'violent offender' is and what a 'non-violent offender' is. But we also have a lot of 'revolving door' inefficiency, simply because these people sit in prison for 10 years and don't do anything but become more bitter and hardened to the world. So when they get out, they're right back at it.

Something to think about.

[Carole]

Wackenhut: Prisons, profits and golf umbrellas
h xxp://www.greenleft.org.au/node/24971

[Carole]

For fuck's sake--we just had a case here in PA where a judge was getting kickbacks for sending kids to prison--and several of you are advocating making it EASIER for these scumbags to profit off of the destruction of people?

I'm all for it if it's tried and convicted serial rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc. But we are so damned far from having a decent justice system that to suggest it is asinine. WTF is wrong with you people? Are you not paying attention?

Good post.

[matt0611]

I'm for making work optional for prisoners that help get them time off, like cleaning the streets, cleaning the parks, community service etc

They help the public out by doing some service and get some time knocked off their sentence, everyone wins.

Easy.

[pcosmar]

I'm for making work optional for prisoners that help get them time off, like cleaning the streets, cleaning the parks, community service etc

They help the public out by doing some service and get some time knocked off their sentence, everyone wins.

Easy.

Why would you want a murder or pedophile to get time off their sentence?
Why would you want them in streets or parks?

:confused:

[tod evans]

Wackenhut: Prisons, profits and golf umbrellas
h xxp://www.greenleft.org.au/node/24971


Prisons are only one part of the money machine...look at the dollars involved before and after prison.
The cops, lawyers on both sides, courts, prison, parole and all the hoopla associated with it from half-way houses to manditory rehab and manditory drug testing....

There's lot's of money involved in the current system, probably as much as is involved in the "war machine".

Getting folks to vote to cut their own income source is pretty hard...
Think about all the "private sector" jobs associated with our prison system.

[matt0611]

Why would you want a murder or pedophile to get time off their sentence?
:confused:

What's the difference? Its punishment, either time or time+work, either way it doesn't matter.
Its not going to knock 10 years off or anything. We're talking a small difference.
Jails are filled with much more than murderers and pedophiles you know.



Why would you want them in streets or parks?


They would be under armed guard and/or chained up?
If they're too dangerous even for that, then fine, don't let them out. But I don't see it being a problem.

[Revolution9]

I think the prisoners assault everyone's liberty by not only committing a crime but also by costing taxpayers nearly 69 billion annually. If they go to jail for a minor offense then they will likely be out sooner.

Then explain why some guy in Texas gets nine years for a joint and a murderer gets three years. Furthermore many are in jail over infractions that would never have gone to jail for such decades back. Smoking pot for example which was legal and lawful till 1937. It is still lawful in that it hurts nobody but it i illegal in that in corporate jurisdiction under UCC it is a controlled commodity of the cabals. Arms,money and drugs =, mortar, slime and stone. They have had the monopoly on these classes of product and resource for centuries and are more than loathe to give up these cash cows. Now, should someone also be forced into slave labor for violating what amounts to corporate stricture of their natural rights? We are not talking common law violations like theft, bodily injury, murder or fraud.

If anything they should be able to tend a farm whose produce is used in the prison kitchen. The idea of prison should be reform and not punishment. Why? Because these people will be released back into society in many cases. Getting hands and back into the earth and having the patience to watch things grow can do wonders to change a mindset and brace someone to the wonders of the natural world instead of wound up in the illusions of the world of civilized man (civilised = tamed) which is the source of most criminality.

Rev9

[Revolution9]

Read the constitution. Forced prison labor is legal and I believe it is very moral. How is it fair that prisoners attack our liberty by commiting crimes then forcing us to pay 69 billion dollars annually?

People went to jail only for common law crimes in those days. There are very few of these and they must have damage to a second party to be valid. Most legal stricture these days under color of law involves no second party that was harmed. You want to save money. Get them to wipe victimless crimes off the books and save about 50 billion annually.

Rev9

[Kludge]

Gaissss. Once again, anarchism would solve this.

If you want to detain people and force them to do labor because they violated one of your moral codes, YOU kidnap them, YOU detain them, and YOU decide what they'll do in your house or warehouse or whatever. You can treat them however you want.

Now, keep in mind, if your treatment of the detainees goes against the moral code of someone else, they could destroy your detainment facility, kill you, or anything else they see fit.

Therefor, we have perfect harmony. It'll be known the best way to deal with criminals is to shoot a criminal in a foreign land for the satisfaction, then move far away where nobody knows what you did.

[Revolution9]

Not torture. But physical punishments work extremely well to mentally condition prisoners. In end it rarely needs to be used. Watch a video from Russian prison camps and see how completely obedient and compliant they are

Yer a frakkin' troll. Nobody in their right mind would frame this argument in America in this manner. I got a cowboy boot for your ass that will make you totally compliant.

Rev9

[Revolution9]

No I'm advocating an effective means of psychological conditioning. I don't understand why people think criminals are victims? You really think it is fair that we pay for them to sit around and do nothing while we work?

You have conveniently ignored every salient point about the nature of inmates in the US. Most are not criminals but merely violated a privilege that was converted from a right or were caught with a cabal monopolized substance that is entirely naturally uncriminal. Yer either dense, anal retentive to the max or trolling for hollers.

Rev9

[pcosmar]

Jails are filled with much more than murderers and pedophiles you know.
Oh yes,, I know.I know because unlike most in this thread I have actually lived in a maximum security prison.
I know it quite well.
I also know that there are many innocent people locked up. There are many Non-violent folks locked up and a great many are locked up for NON-Crimes.



They would be under armed guard and/or chained up?
If they're too dangerous even for that, then fine, don't let them out. But I don't see it being a problem.

You don't see a problem because you have no idea at all what you are talking about.
It would take more manpower to guard them that any possible benefit from having them do the work.

Why not leave them in the cell. And have those guards do that street or park work?

[Revolution9]

why isn't executing them an option?

Because some in society do not see man as having the power to decide life and death. It is a blood on your hands by proxy action and some folks believe in the sanctity of their eternal soul. The rest of society has no right to drag them into the mud of revenge to execute someone who may just be an innocent trapped by circumstances or lying LEO's.

Rev9

[LibertyEagle]

Physical punishment and food rationing are just a few effective punishments. New technology could help in the physical punishment part. I'm sure there are many incentives that can be used as well.


Forced labor prisons have been used in China and Russia


Not torture. But physical punishments work extremely well to mentally condition prisoners. In end it rarely needs to be used. Watch a video from Russian prison camps and see how completely obedient and compliant they are

Ok. For murderers, serial rapists, and government officials convicted of not honoring their oaths of office to abide by the Constitution. And you, of course; so that the system can be tested. ;)

[Revolution9]

The first step to fixing the prison system is by fixing the statutes of individual states. You have to fix it at a state level. Once the laws make sense and the sentencing guidelines make sense you can work on rehabilitation/punishment issues. I don't think it was the constitution's intention to turn the prison system into an industry.

Good point and the corollary being that prisons were intended to be a government operation making private-for-profit prisons unconstitutional.

Rev9

[matt0611]

Oh yes,, I know.I know because unlike most in this thread I have actually lived in a maximum security prison.
I know it quite well.
I also know that there are many innocent people locked up. There are many Non-violent folks locked up and a great many are locked up for NON-Crimes.



You don't see a problem because you have no idea at all what you are talking about.
It would take more manpower to guard them that any possible benefit from having them do the work.

Why not leave them in the cell. And have those guards do that street or park work?

Well if it doesn't make financial sense then it doesn't make sense. I'm only for doing it if its a net benefit to the community.

[LibertyEagle]

Well if it doesn't make financial sense then it doesn't make sense. I'm only for doing it if its a net benefit to the community.

Once upon a time, I might have been all for this. But, that was a long time ago. Think about all the private, for profit, prisons going up. Think about the judges who have already been exposed for having been paid off to send prisoners to these new prisons. Think about what is happening in our country today. Then, ask yourself again, if you think it truly is a good idea.

[pcosmar]

Well if it doesn't make financial sense then it doesn't make sense. I'm only for doing it if its a net benefit to the community.
"The net benefit of the community"

What a wonderfully collectivist/utilitarian thought.

I am so glad that Ron Paul actually has Principles.

[Blue_Merle]

In reference to the OP:

Absolutely not.

[dillo]

slavery is cruel and unusual punishment and thus is in violation of the bill of rights

maybe prisons wouldnt cost so much if we didn't put people that don't belong there in them

[Pericles]

The federal system (B.O.P.) does mandate that every prisoner who is not in solitary confinment work 8hrs per day.
Some of those jobs maintain the facility while others are for UNICOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Industries).
UNICOR is of itself a governmental scam where the military is mandated to purchase from them over private businesses.
Thinking prisoners in the B.O.P. "sit on their asses" is a fallacy, and the statement made by the propaganda machine that "employment at UNICOR is voluntary" is very missleading. If a prisoner chooses not to work for UNICOR they must rely on outside sources for money, so those who`s families have been financially ruined by their federal conviction are realistically "forced" to seek employment at UNICOR.

As far as "on another note when the shtf and all the prisoners are set lose".....you can bet your bottom dollar that if the "shtf" not one federal prisoner will leave the walls unless he's in a body bag.

Reality really is different than the movies and i sincerely hope none of you folks ever find out.

Best post of this thread. half the stuff the Army uses is made by UNICOR, and the Army pays retail prices for it - some examples:

http://www.unicor.gov/shopping/ViewProduct.asp?idCategory=564&idproduct=1734&iStore=CTG
http://www.unicor.gov/shopping/ViewProduct.asp?idCategory=476&idproduct=1770&iStore=IPG
http://www.unicor.gov/shopping/ViewProduct.asp?idproduct=1586&iStore=CTG&idCategory=548

Kevlar helmets, T-shirts, etc.

[osan]

As a libertarian, I think society would benefit from prisoner labor. I am also a firm upholder of the Constitution and the Constitution supports prison labor.

"The 13th Amendment of the American Constitution in 1865 explicitly allows penal labor as it states that "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

"In 2006, $68,747,203,000 was spent on corrections. In 2001 among facilities operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons, it cost $22,632 per inmate, or $62.01 per day."

Why do taxpayers have to support prisoners? They should work just like everyone else does.

I see a few issues here.

First, just because the Constitution says something, it does not follow that it is automatically correct. Any document may be "interpreted", so even if we grant that a constitution is gospel in terms of what was originally intended in its wording, ignorant or intentionally oblique interpretation can lead to action at wide variance with original meaning. So granting is, however, not rationally supportable. A constitution is not likely to represent the desires of all and is even less likely to be pristine in its respect of individual rights. I must therefore conclude that a constitution, even our lovely and compact Constitution, represents nothing infallible and absolute in its authority. This will hold true of any such document that speaks in terms of particulars and not in terms of very broad principles wherein the rights of the individual are held paramount above all other considerations.

Next, I am not in favor of such labor schemes if for no other reason than they present an inherent conflict of interest. Once "the state" comes to depend upon or otherwise covet the asset of prison labor, there invariably arises the motivation to grow that asset and the seeds of corruption are then in germination. Forget the moral arguments against prison labor - the practical issues more than justify prohibition of such schemes.

Another issue revolves around the endless whining about cost. This is readily reduced into virtual insignificance through several means. First and foremost, the vast majority of those in prison are in for non-criminal acts such as possession of drugs, tax evasion, pissing on a tree, etc. Repeal all such idiotic law that puts non-criminals into prison and your bill is cut by about 70%, once those unjustly imprisoned are released. The other major expense saving measure is to make prisons places nobody wants to go or stay. Solitary confinement the universal condition. No visitors. Food of minimal quality. No medical care save ER type medicine. No TV, exercise equipment, libraries, gay sex, drugs, alcohol, or any other diversion. Just a cell, a bunk, toilet, maybe a shower, and a whole lot of time to think about what it is you have done and shat sort of person you will choose to be when you emerge from the other end of your sentence.

I am against privatization of prisons for the same reasons. Caging people for profit inevitably leads to a search for ever more reasons to put people behind bars. This can never end well.

Until humans learn to live by principle rather than arbitrary "law", the human race will continue to devolve into ever greater tyranny and the resulting slavery that it cannot help but bring to fruition. As constitutions go, the US version is a notch above the next best to be found, but it is still gravely flawed. A return to Constitutional administration of governance will be a step in a better direction, but do not fool yourself into believing that even the most perfect adherence would constitute free living for Americans. It would simply provide a prettier slavery for us. People are either free or they are not. There is nothing in between, regardless of how attractively packaged slavery may be.

[Danke]

Gaissss. Once again, anarchism would solve this.

If you want to detain people and force them to do labor because they violated one of your moral codes, YOU kidnap them, YOU detain them, and YOU decide what they'll do in your house or warehouse or whatever. You can treat them however you want.

Now, keep in mind, if your treatment of the detainees goes against the moral code of someone else, they could destroy your detainment facility, kill you, or anything else they see fit.

Therefor, we have perfect harmony. It'll be known the best way to deal with criminals is to shoot a criminal in a foreign land for the satisfaction, then move far away where nobody knows what you did.

Aaaamy!

[Pericles]

At one point, the Texas prison system produced its own food and clothing, and otherwise was almost self sustaining, but did not allow products made by prisoners to be sold outside of the prison system. I would find that acceptable - markets should not be distorted by artificially low labor prices.

[amy31416]

Aaaamy!

What?

[Danke]

What?

Get the squirt bottle out.

[Becker]

"The net benefit of the community"

What a wonderfully collectivist/utilitarian thought.

I am so glad that Ron Paul actually has Principles.

in our previous conversation, those who do not hide their goal of net detriment for the community must not be bad then.

[moderate libertarian]

For those convicted of grave crimes and medically fit, some required work would be good for channeling their energies in a healthy way and maybe giving some purpose to their unfortunate situation. For others, work should be optional.

An empty mind is devil's workshop.

[Invi]

You know, I used to support things like this... back when I identified with democrats as a teenager.
When I didn't think about where taxes really come from, and the implied threat of force to extract them.
When I thought the death penalty was acceptable.
When I thought perhaps everyone should have to serve their country for a couple years of their life, just because.

Now I can look back and be disgusted with myself, and look at the OP and be just as disgusted.
I don't give a damn if slavery for criminals is legal under the Constitution, it is still wrong, like many, many other laws.

[robert9712000]

Perhaps the problem is that your template for morality is the Constitution, a document which counted blacks as three-fifths of a person. Something can be constitutional and immoral.

From what i understand it was 3/5 for slaves not against blacks .that was done as a way of encouraging the south to give up slavery,because theyed get more representation if they werent slaves.

[matt0611]

"The net benefit of the community"

What a wonderfully collectivist/utilitarian thought.

I am so glad that Ron Paul actually has Principles.

So is Ron Paul against prisons?
Is he against people doing community service?

I'm paying for these people's meals and their housing, so whats so wrong with them working to clean stuff up for it a bit if it saves me money and makes financial sense?

[roho76]

I think it would be better spent educating them since it's their lack of (real)education that usually lands them there in the first place.

[LibertyEagle]

From what i understand it was 3/5 for slaves not against blacks .that was done as a way of encouraging the south to give up slavery,because theyed get more representation if they werent slaves.

He has been told that a million times, but he keeps posting it for some reason.

[Becker]

From what i understand it was 3/5 for slaves not against blacks .that was done as a way of encouraging the south to give up slavery,because theyed get more representation if they werent slaves.

I didn't know that, honestly.

So were free blacks fully counted and fully protected? Right to own land and right to have slaves?

[LibertyEagle]

So is Ron Paul against prisons?
Is he against people doing community service?

I'm paying for these people's meals and their housing, so whats so wrong with them working to clean stuff up for it a bit if it saves me money and makes financial sense?

I seriously doubt he is. But, that is a long way away from this:


Physical punishment and food rationing are just a few effective punishments. New technology could help in the physical punishment part. I'm sure there are many incentives that can be used as well.


Forced labor prisons have been used in China and Russia


Not torture. But physical punishments work extremely well to mentally condition prisoners. In end it rarely needs to be used. Watch a video from Russian prison camps and see how completely obedient and compliant they are

[kylejack]

He has been told that a million times, but he keeps posting it for some reason.
Cite the million times, or even one of them? To my memory, I've never discussed the 3/5 compromise on RPF.

Anyway, I'm still right that Constitutionality is not the same thing as morality.

[pcosmar]

So is Ron Paul against prisons?
Is he against people doing community service?

I'm paying for these people's meals and their housing, so whats so wrong with them working to clean stuff up for it a bit if it saves me money and makes financial sense?

He is in favor of emptying them. he is also in favor of both law and law enforcement being as local as possible.
He is not in favor of slavery.

[oyarde]

No , I would not support forced labor . I have lived enough and seen enough to know that there is no legal system that can be entrusted to administer this . Next question ?

[pcosmar]

I didn't know that, honestly.

So were free blacks fully counted and fully protected? Right to own land and right to have slaves?
Educate your self on history before making yourself look any more stupid.

First,, Not all slaves were black.
Slavery was practiced throughout the world. It was a common and accepted practice, though falling out of favor around that time.

And yes there were Free Blacks in the south prior to the Civil War. They did own land and businesses. Unsure if any owned slaves,(none that I know of), but that is certainly possible.

[matt0611]

He is in favor of emptying them. he is also in favor of both law and law enforcement being as local as possible.
He is not in favor of slavery.

He's not in favor of emptying the prisons. He's in favor of emptying them of people who have committed so called "victim-less crimes".
I'm not in favor of slavery either. Offering someone a job is slavery now?

[Becker]

Educate your self on history before making yourself look any more stupid.

First,, Not all slaves were black.
Slavery was practiced throughout the world. It was a common and accepted practice, though falling out of favor around that time.


Understood.



And yes there were Free Blacks in the south prior to the Civil War. They did own land and businesses. Unsure if any owned slaves,(none that I know of), but that is certainly possible.
Ok, thanks.

[FreeTraveler]

This is one of those "have you stopped beating your wife" trick questions, isn't it?

Here, let me fix it.

Would you support forced labor in the US prison system?

NO.

If jails exist, they should be at the local level. The US should have no prison system.

[Becker]

He's not in favor of emptying the prisons. He's in favor of emptying them of people who have committed so called "victim-less crimes".
I'm not in favor of slavery either. Offering a job is slavery now?

lol

[tod evans]

I think it would be better spent educating them since it's their lack of (real)education that usually lands them there in the first place.

Education is a noble endeavor but the OP specifically addressed the federal prison system and in the federal system both the education and IQ of the prisoners are well above the norms.
More than 85% of those incarcerated in the federal system are not there for violent crimes.

[pcosmar]

I'm not in favor of slavery either. Offering someone a job is slavery now?

The question was not about "offering a job",, the question is about FORCED LABOR.

[oyarde]

He's not in favor of emptying the prisons. He's in favor of emptying them of people who have committed so called "victim-less crimes".
I'm not in favor of slavery either. Offering someone a job is slavery now? The current tax code is slavery .

[matt0611]

The question was not about "offering a job",, the question is about FORCED LABOR.

My first post:


I'm for making work optional for prisoners that help get them time off, like cleaning the streets, cleaning the parks, community service etc

They help the public out by doing some service and get some time knocked off their sentence, everyone wins.

Easy.

[pcosmar]

My first post:

I am all for providing opportunities for rehabilitation,, for those that are salvageable. And many are.
I do oppose prisons for profit as it has a demonstrated and documented tendency for abuse and corruption.

[LibertyEagle]

He is in favor of emptying them. he is also in favor of both law and law enforcement being as local as possible.
He is not in favor of slavery.

Where are you getting this from? I am not aware of that at all.

[tod evans]

I am all for providing opportunities for rehabilitation,, for those that are salvageable. And many are.
I do oppose prisons for profit as it has a demonstrated and documented tendency for abuse and corruption.

Surely not.....(wink)

The dept. of "just-us" has their 401`s tied directly to UNICOR`s profit......go figure.

[pcosmar]

Where are you getting this from? I am not aware of that at all.

he has stated that he would pardon non-violent offenders.
He has also spoken of the discrepancy in prison populations, has spoken of the Police State and other related issues.
Ending the War on Drugs.

This alone would vastly reduce prison populations.

[LibertyEagle]

he has stated that he would pardon non-violent offenders.
He has also spoken of the dependency in prison populations, has spoken of the Police State and other related issues.
Ending the War on Drugs.

This alone would vastly reduce prison populations.

Sure. But, it would not empty the prisons.

[oyarde]

Sure. But, it would not empty the prisons. Where I live , yes , the war on drugs , is the prison system , taxpayers get a huge savings without that , very few violent criminals.

[pcosmar]

Sure. But, it would not empty the prisons.

No not entirely, but it would cut the population drastically. Hence "emptying".
he is certainly not in favor of the present system or the type of system being advocated by some here.

I have not said there is no need for prisons, only that there could be much less need,, and that it would be best handled at the local level.

[osan]

I have not said there is no need for prisons, only that there could be much less need,, and that it would be best handled at the local level.

There already is less need. We do not need to put pot smokers into prisons for ten years. We do not need to imprison tax evaders - hell, we should be pinning medals on their chests. Anything less than murder, battery, theft, fraud, bringing intentional physical harm, and rape merits no prison time.

[Jandrsn21]

NO! Make prison labor cheaper than normal labor and soon enough we'll all be in prison.

[amy31416]

Get the squirt bottle out.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Hospitaller]

How about optional full time work for a reduced sentance>?

[DamianTV]

Not until the Legal System is no longer Corrupt.

Our Prison System is a Private Organization, funded by taxes, they are in the business for Profit. If we allow that to continue, and allow people to be imprisoned for ridiculus crimes, we will all be slaves of the Prison System. The difference between a Law Abiding Citizen and a Criminal is based on the interpretation of those who stand to Profit or Benefit in some way from that interpretation. Thus, Law Abiding Citizens are nothing more than a potential paycheck and would be criminals because they have a prescription from their doctor for antibiotics that expired 3 days ago.

The only ones that deserve Hard Labor are the Banksters and Criminal Corporate Class. They all need to be imprisoned for the rest of their lives for the crimes of High Treason and Crimes Against Humanity.

[pcosmar]

Not until the Legal System is no longer Corrupt.

Our Prison System is a Private Organization, funded by taxes, they are in the business for Profit. If we allow that to continue, and allow people to be imprisoned for ridiculus crimes, we will all be slaves of the Prison System. The difference between a Law Abiding Citizen and a Criminal is based on the interpretation of those who stand to Profit or Benefit in some way from that interpretation. Thus, Law Abiding Citizens are nothing more than a potential paycheck and would be criminals because they have a prescription from their doctor for antibiotics that expired 3 days ago.

The only ones that deserve Hard Labor are the Banksters and Criminal Corporate Class. They all need to be imprisoned for the rest of their lives for the crimes of High Treason and Crimes Against Humanity.

A man after my own heart. +Rep

[talkingpointes]

Yes, create a system for the state to exploit prisoners for gain. Nothing can go wrong there.

Maybe you would like to see what this would look like ?
http://www.maine.gov/corrections/industries/furniture/index.htm

If you think illegal immigrants can depress wages, wait till you see what slave labor can do to wages.

[Johnny Appleseed]

forced prison labor for profit no question a bad idea...child molesters/murderers maintaining parks bad idea.

A young first time offender with a 5 year sentence why not give him/her a skill with recognized industry experience for when they get out? Making/doing things we tax payers would have to otherwise pay for?

[kylejack]

Yes, prison should serve to give a criminal the skills to succeed legitimately on the outside. As long as it's optional for the prisoner.

[osan]

How about optional full time work for a reduced sentance>?

Nope. Make no mistake about it: the proper role of prison is PUNISHMENT; no more, no less. Allowing a murderer to receive less time because he works in prison is tantamount to saying one can at least partly buy his way out of his accountability for whatever it is he has done. Tell that to the parents of the child he kidnapped, murdered, skull-fucked, dismembered, and dined upon.

The very notion of prison, if it is to be accepted as legitimate, must be based in absolutely RIGID principle that is righteous and adhered to in the most faithfully unwaivering manner. Anything less makes a grotesque mockery of the idea of justice.

Prisoners should get a cell, three meals/day, and abundant time to consider the choices they have made. Not a whit more. Being so terribly harsh as this, only people who have done terrible things should be put into such places. Murderers, rapists, armed robbers, and so on. We need to stop sweating the small stuff and concentrate on real problems. Putting a man into prison for carrying a gun without state permission is rank bullshit.

[heavenlyboy34]

Nope. Make no mistake about it: the proper role of prison is PUNISHMENT; no more, no less. Allowing a murderer to receive less time because he works in prison is tantamount to saying one can at least partly buy his way out of his accountability for whatever it is he has done. Tell that to the parents of the child he kidnapped, murdered, skull-fucked, dismembered, and dined upon.

The very notion of prison, if it is to be accepted as legitimate, must be based in absolutely RIGID principle that is righteous and adhered to in the most faithfully unwaivering manner. Anything less makes a grotesque mockery of the idea of justice.

Prisoners should get a cell, three meals/day, and abundant time to consider the choices they have made. Not a whit more. Being so terribly harsh as this, only people who have done terrible things should be put into such places. Murderers, rapists, armed robbers, and so on. We need to stop sweating the small stuff and concentrate on real problems. Putting a man into prison for carrying a gun without state permission is rank bullshit.
No. Prisons exist primarily for the benefit of the state/prison/industrial complex. It is not a deterrent and their existence does not compensate victims. The "justice" system is a fucking joke. More crimes (it's hard NOT to do something illegal now. IIRC, the average person commits 3 crimes a day without even thinking about it)=more prisons=more profit for prison operators/builders as well as officers.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

NO!!!

[rambone]

Would you support forced labor in a FEMA Camp?

[KingRobbStark]

If forced labor becomes legal I cal dips on the OP.

[tod evans]

Nope. Make no mistake about it: the proper role of prison is PUNISHMENT; no more, no less. .

The very notion of prison, if it is to be accepted as legitimate, must be based in absolutely RIGID principle that is righteous and adhered to in the most faithfully unwaivering manner. Anything less makes a grotesque mockery of the idea of justice.

Prisoners should get a cell, three meals/day, and abundant time to consider the choices they have made. Not a whit more. Being so terribly harsh as this, only people who have done terrible things should be put into such places. Murderers, rapists, armed robbers, and so on. We need to stop sweating the small stuff and concentrate on real problems. Putting a man into prison for carrying a gun without state permission is rank bullshit.

By and large you seem to have the theory of penilizing folks down as common sense dictates.
Only problem is that reality keeps sticking its ugly head in the mix.

Our justice system has become so perverted that any resemblance to theory has long gone by the wayside.
This thread addresses one aspect of the "judicial" arm of government and even then only brushes the surface...what about the legislative and executive branches?

I don't have any answers but it sure is good to know that more and more folks are starting to acknowledge that there is a problem! For my entire life (50+) I have been aware of the progressive criminalization of acts that most sane people would/should question. Legislative people enact whatever laws appease the voting population at the time with little forethought to the consequences of their actions other that remaining in a position of authority.

Notice of our prison system and the surrounding laws and enforcement was bound to happen given the amount of people we have locked up in the last several decades. We have a larger percentage (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html?pagewanted=all) of our population who has been subjected to our judicial system than any other nation! Do you think it's because we behave worse than folks in other nations?
For heavens sake we bitch and moan about the opressive laws in China and other countries but look at the statistics.

Ron Pauls message of liberty rings true for folks for many different reasons and that's a good thing!