PDA

View Full Version : "How Could This Happen in America?" - The "left" perhaps is finally starting to "get it".




Anti Federalist
11-26-2011, 11:04 PM
A money quote:


A Twitter post from Joy Reid, of the blog the Reid Report, put it this way last week: "Disconnect: liberals see a suddenly 'militarized,' possibly federalized police force. Black people see 'the usual.'"

No, Joy, not just "black people" but as the author correctly points out, the libertarian right, people like myself, who vigorously denounced the cops that beat Rodney King or the ATF thugs that murdered the first black Harvard divinity school graduate, Wayne Martin, at the killing grounds of Waco, have been all over this as well. Usually to be dismissed as "paranoid extremists" by both sides of the establishment, some of us have been here all along, and it hasn't been "the left".

The left used to understand this, but as they got fat, complacent and jaded, they forgot the lessons of Kent State.

Regardless of where you stand, militarized police are a direct threat to liberty and have no place in a free society.

They are, in fact, the standing armies that the Founders warned us of.



"How Could This Happen in America?" Why Police Are Treating Americans Like Military Threats

Why is the armed might of the state, (necessary in waging war against foreign enemies) being applied to domestic policing of local communities and peaceful protests?

November 22, 2011

http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/153170/%22how_could_this_happen_in_america%22_why_police_ are_treating_americans_like_military_threats/?page=entire

"How could this happen in America?"

"Is this still my country?"

In the past few days, those and similarly poignant Twitter posts have appealed to fundamental American values in objecting to the notorious U.C. Davis event, where police pepper-sprayed seated protesters, and to cities generally cracking down on the Occupy movement. The crackdowns have brought a military level of combativeness to what many Americans -- even those not in sympathy with the protesters -- would normally see as a police, not a military matter.

Police, not military. The distinction may seem academic, even absurd, when police are bringing rifles, helmets, armor, and helicopters to evict unarmed protesters. But it's an old and critical distinction in American law and ideology and in republican thought as a whole. The 17th-century English liberty writers, on whose ideas much of America's founding ethos was based, believed that turning the armed might of the state, (necessary in waging war against foreign enemies), to domestic policing of local communities tends to concentrate power in top-down executive action and vitiate treasured things like judiciary process, individual liberty, representative government, and free speech.

Constabulary and judiciary matters, high Whigs came to think, should never be handled by what they condemned as "standing armies." It's true, on the other hand, that keeping public order, not just aiding in prosecutions, is a duty of local police. When concerted crowd violence occurs against people and property, policing may be expected to be pretty violent too, and distinctions between combat and policing sometimes naturally blur.

But where protest is peaceful -- maybe loud, maybe deliberately annoying, combative in its rhetoric, even possibly illegal, yet not actually violent or dangerous -- treating it the way a state normally treats an outside military threat will give many Americans, across a broad political spectrum, a gut problem.

We've seen military hardware and tactics used in the Occupy crackdowns. We've seen them in post-9/11 federal funding in the states and municipalities for homeland security. We've seen them in the aptly named "war on drugs." And anyone who has watched shows like "Cops" has seen -- and may by now take for granted -- techniques and technologies of military-style police raids on homes, raids that in more upscale neighborhoods might amount to nothing more than knocking on a door and serving a warrant. A Twitter post from Joy Reid, of the blog the Reid Report, put it this way last week: "Disconnect: liberals see a suddenly 'militarized,' possibly federalized police force. Black people see 'the usual.'"

The police behavior at U.C. Davis -- manifestly not "rogue-cop," a trained, planned exercise -- reveals the cool military thinking behind the operation. Pepper-spraying looked surgical, preemptive, even robotic. The strategic directive must have been to conserve police effort and maintain police maneuverability at virtually any cost. Such efficiencies and capabilities would be important in a riot; they're not important when hoping to evict unarmed, seated protesters. It's not as if officers have been resorting to battle gear under otherwise unmanageable pressure or initiating violence only as a last resort. They've been arriving in battle gear. They've been construing noncompliance as potential attack. They've moved preemptively to disable attack where none existed, not just trying to evict but seemingly hoping to inspire fear, to punish and defeat.

The mood these operations convey is that failure to achieve police objectives must result in something awful for the body politic. In reality, leaving citizens sitting around a park or campus a few more days, even possibly illegally, might be frustrating for police and others; it's hardly the end of the world. Sometimes taking a few deep breaths is the only thing to do. But military training, tactics, and weaponry seem to inspire the idea in civic strategists that failure to achieve an objective is tantamount to fatal defeat by a hostile enemy. Intolerable. Not an option.

That mentality tends to place American governments at enmity with their dissident citizens -- and vice versa. The fact that much militarizing of police, over the past twenty years, has federal sources raises endlessly complicated questions that reflect strangely on the histories of American federalism and government suppression. A horrific theme of the Civil Rights Movement was police violence, and many Americans have branded on their brains the watercannons, clubs, dogs, fists, and boots used against nonviolent protesters in the 1950s; police involved were generally state and local. Then in 1957 federal troops -- the 101st Airborne Paratroopers -- entered Little Rock, Arkansas, with fixed bayonets, to enforce federal law by ensuring the entry of African American students to state school there; states-rights advocates talked about federal overreaching and police state, the end of liberty. Then again, in the 1960s and '70s the federal government, via its law-enforcement arm the FBI, carried out a covert war -- involving assassination, it's fairly uncontroversial to say -- on the militant activist group the Black Panthers, who it's fairly uncontroversial to say were not always peaceful protesters.

Responding now to police efforts against demonstrators, liberals and leftists have begun raising anew the issue of inappropriate police militarization and violence.

Yet it's the libertarian right that has done much of the reporting and research on the issue in recent decades

(Democracy Now! is among left-liberal institutions that have also covered the issue for many years). The current state of heightened awareness means there's a possibly interesting opportunity for people of varying backgrounds and politics to begin a new conversation. That conversation would involve some very strange bedfellows -- and might spark new enmities. The Salon columnist Joan Walsh's suggestion last weekend on Twitter that if police violence has federal sources, then President Obama bears some responsibility set off a torrent of invective violent even by Twitter standards.

James Madison may offer some long-range perspective. During the 1787 Constitutional Convention, arguing for forming a nation instead of retaining the confederation of states, he said that force applied to citizens collectively rather than individually ceases to be law enforcement and becomes war; groups so treated will seize the opportunity to dissolve all compacts by which they might otherwise have been bound. Madison's argued against militarism in favor not of anarchy but of a higher kind of law and order.

And in 1794, Secretary of State Edmund Randolph, advising President Washington (to no avail) to eschew military adventure against the so-called Whiskey Rebels, and to use prosecutions instead, argued passionately that the real strength of government always lies not in coercion but in the affection of the people. Randolph was facing an actual insurrection, with threat of secession, not a peaceful protest; there were federal crimes involved. Still he advised against a military operation. The loathing of military suppression as a substitute for due process of law, going back to our first administration, runs deep in the American psyche.

But it's worth remembering that equally strong feelings have always run the other way. Long before events known as the Whiskey Rebellion had risen to any kind of crisis, Alexander Hamilton, Secretary of the Treasury, was urging Washington to bring military force against citizens somewhere in the country; otherwise, Hamilton believed, authority would always be in question. When Washington did so, he ignored habeas corpus and nearly every individual right set out in the new Bill of Rights, federalizing militias to bring overwhelming force to shock and awe innocent citizens of an entire region of the country. In his book Crisis and Command, John Yoo, author of the notorious "torture memo," has defended the George W. Bush administration's tactics in dealing with suspected terrorists by citing precedent -- not wrongly -- in Washington's behavior in the 1790s.

"Is this still my country?" That's been a question from day one, asked by Americans of widely diverging views in response to government crackdowns on protest. Objecting to military violence against protesting citizens may be inherently American. The urge to crack down can look inherently American too.

Pericles
11-26-2011, 11:14 PM
The left forgot about "police brutality" once they got control of government and could direct the police at their opponents, who are now surprised that the monster is also capable of attacking its master.

dbill27
11-26-2011, 11:26 PM
AF, I'm beginning to think you aren't a fan of the police ?

flightlesskiwi
11-26-2011, 11:29 PM
Regardless of where you stand, militarized police are a direct threat to liberty and have no place in a free society.

They are, in fact, the standing armies that the Founders warned us of.

qft

+1776

dbill27
11-26-2011, 11:30 PM
P.S, the left will never "get it", it's just simply a matter of finding the "honest" politicians, or police, or regulators. They will never lose faith in the machine, if you haven't by now then what would it take?

AuH20
11-26-2011, 11:31 PM
Doesn't the left love the IRS? EPA with machine guns? ATF?

BattleFlag1776
11-26-2011, 11:37 PM
I could launch into a multi-paragraph rant but instead will just say this: History is cyclical. Always has been, always will be. If people in this country studied just the last five hundred years with as much fervor as they "study" their favorite sports team, our troubles would be over very quickly.

Warrior_of_Freedom
11-26-2011, 11:40 PM
I could launch into a multi-paragraph rant but instead will just say this: History is cyclical. Always has been, always will be. If people in this country studied just the last five hundred years with as much fervor as they "study" their favorite sports team, our troubles would be over very quickly.New technology would make going backwards much more harder when people can be controlled simply by something like LRAD.

GuerrillaXXI
11-27-2011, 12:05 AM
Maybe the recent police brutality will also make a lot of leftists think again about whether they want only the police and military to have combat-grade firearms.

Then again, maybe not. I've long been suspicious that most leftist types, particularly those inclined toward participation in protests like "Occupy Wall Street," are masochists on some level. Or maybe they hold the extremely naive view that all people -- even the government's thug enforcers -- are ultimately good and amenable to persuasion, much like Darth Vader had some goodness hidden deep down within him that only needed the near-death of Luke Skywalker to be brought out. How else can we explain the way those protesters just let the pigs gas them and beat them senseless? And it never ceases to amaze me how some people think puling chants of "shame on you!" can be an effective deterrent to police savagery.

The police are an occupying army. The only meaningful differences between them and the US military proper are the uniforms and the direction in which their guns are pointed (i.e., at citizens or foreigners, inward or outward). Also, the only two things the Evil Empire understands are force and money. So, if it's desired to impose change without resorting to armed conflict, then some sort of economic pressures will have to be imposed via boycotts or other means. Merely protesting will NOT work.

DamianTV
11-27-2011, 08:48 AM
...

Regardless of where you stand, militarized police are a direct threat to liberty and have no place in a free society.

They are, in fact, the standing armies that the Founders warned us of.

When Tyranny finally comes to America, it will come under the guise of Patriotism.

*cough* patriot act *cough* for their own good *cough*

---

No, AF is NOT a fan of Police. He probably doesnt feel that negatively against Elected Sheriffs as much as the Thug Police that we have absolutely no recourse against, but I'll let him answer that in his own words.

The Police are NOT there to protect you. They are there to protect The Government and its Masters, the Banks. Someone needs to go bump that thread on "Myth of Police Protection".

Anti Federalist
11-27-2011, 02:17 PM
No, AF is NOT a fan of Police. He probably doesnt feel that negatively against Elected Sheriffs as much as the Thug Police that we have absolutely no recourse against, but I'll let him answer that in his own words.

IF there is to be government, it MUST be a limited, constitutional, republic.

IF there are to be cops, they MUST be elected Sheriffs with duly sworn citizen deputies.

Travlyr
11-27-2011, 02:30 PM
IF there is to be government, it MUST be a limited, constitutional, republic.

IF there are to be cops, they MUST be elected Sheriffs with duly sworn citizen deputies.
No Doubt.

Rule of law and a representative government is the best we have at the moment. There may be a better way, but the tyranny we are putting up with now... aint it. Let's take our country back and find a better way.

heavenlyboy34
11-27-2011, 02:51 PM
IF there is to be government, it MUST be a limited, constitutional, republic.

IF there are to be cops, they MUST be elected Sheriffs with duly sworn citizen deputies.
Complete with the right of state-, county-, city-, and micro-secession. :cool:

acptulsa
11-27-2011, 03:20 PM
'How could this happen in America?'

'And then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me.'

Aratus
11-27-2011, 06:51 PM
"who is john galt?"

"...i am john galt"

GuerrillaXXI
11-27-2011, 08:31 PM
I predict that the future is going to see more people, particularly the elderly and terminally ill, engaging in acts of suicidal retribution against the police state. Think of Christopher Monfort (although he wasn't old or ill):

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012442504_monfort25m.html

Granted that Monfort was not killed, but it was by sheer luck that he survived, and he could have killed himself as the pigs closed in on him. The pigs are also very lucky he didn't kill more of them.

Anyway, I honestly believe that we're going to see a lot more of this in the future. As furious as I am about brutality and arrogance of the police state, I suspect there are those who are even angrier (if that's possible) AND who, for whatever reason, don't have to worry about leaving behind loved ones. What will happen when those people reach 75-80 years old and realize that death isn't far away regardless of what they do or don't do? As the police state's surveillance net tightens and its brutality increases, peaceful resistance will become pointless, and non-suicidal, small-scale guerrilla resistance will become almost impossible. But the police state will never take away the ability of someone who already accepts the inevitability of death to make a very strong statement with deeds as well as words.

If this prediction comes true, no doubt it will lead to a crackdown on gun ownership. In turn, that could lead to a nationwide uprising. All this remains to be seen, but I'm seeing glimmers of it in my crystal ball.

Nate
11-27-2011, 11:58 PM
'How could this happen in America?'

'And then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me.'

+rep

Nate
11-27-2011, 11:58 PM
IF there is to be government, it MUST be a limited, constitutional, republic.

IF there are to be cops, they MUST be elected Sheriffs with duly sworn citizen deputies.

+rep

Nate
11-27-2011, 11:59 PM
Complete with the right of state-, county-, city-, and micro-secession. :cool:

+rep

Anti Federalist
11-28-2011, 12:10 AM
AF, I'm beginning to think you aren't a fan of the police ?

I highlighted that whole post, just to see if /s/ wasn't in the same color as the background.

ryanmkeisling
11-28-2011, 12:29 AM
I could launch into a multi-paragraph rant but instead will just say this: History is cyclical. Always has been, always will be. If people in this country studied just the last five hundred years with as much fervor as they "study" their favorite sports team, our troubles would be over very quickly.

+rep.

Anti Federalist
11-28-2011, 10:28 PM
///

CUnknown
11-29-2011, 12:42 AM
Maybe the recent police brutality will also make a lot of leftists think again about whether they want only the police and military to have combat-grade firearms.

Then again, maybe not. I've long been suspicious that most leftist types, particularly those inclined toward participation in protests like "Occupy Wall Street," are masochists on some level. Or maybe they hold the extremely naive view that all people -- even the government's thug enforcers -- are ultimately good and amenable to persuasion, much like Darth Vader had some goodness hidden deep down within him that only needed the near-death of Luke Skywalker to be brought out. How else can we explain the way those protesters just let the pigs gas them and beat them senseless? And it never ceases to amaze me how some people think puling chants of "shame on you!" can be an effective deterrent to police savagery.

The police are an occupying army. The only meaningful differences between them and the US military proper are the uniforms and the direction in which their guns are pointed (i.e., at citizens or foreigners, inward or outward). Also, the only two things the Evil Empire understands are force and money. So, if it's desired to impose change without resorting to armed conflict, then some sort of economic pressures will have to be imposed via boycotts or other means. Merely protesting will NOT work.

I agree with you in some respects, but resorting to force at this stage is a horrible idea. It will only give the police a justification for their actions and many people will side emotionally with the police, thinking the violent protestors deserved it. As it is now, most people side with the protestors.

For example, imagine if the police didn't have tear gas and instead just shot protestors. The fallout from that would be enormous, and like the Boston Massacre, it would solidify the country's desire for real change. The worst thing the police could do would be to rachet up the violence, and I think they have already gone too far, out of fear. Overplayed their hand. The best thing for the protestors to do is keep at it and not back down or switch tactics.

What they're doing really does have the potential to change things. The police and the Feds agree, or else they wouldn't be so quick to violently repress when that kind of strategy is probably going to do more harm than good in the long run.

I wish the protestors understood economics and monetary theory a little better, heh, but they really are patriots for getting out in the street like they are, and we should support them 100%.

GuerrillaXXI
11-29-2011, 07:25 PM
I agree with you in some respects, but resorting to force at this stage is a horrible idea. It will only give the police a justification for their actions and many people will side emotionally with the police, thinking the violent protestors deserved it. As it is now, most people side with the protestors.The pigs don't need any justification for their violence. They simply beat and gas people whenever they feel like doing so. They also use violence at their whim across the country in contexts other than protests.

I'm not comfortable with the idea that people should simply allow themselves to be used as doormats and punching bags for the sake of sending a message. (If I or any of my loved ones were treated that way, I'd be much more than simply uncomfortable; I'd seek revenge, regardless of the cost to myself.)

Moreover, I'm not convinced that most people side with the protesters, though I admit to not having seen the relevant polls. I do know that most Americans suffer from Stockholm syndrome and have been conditioned to genuflect before any thug who wears a badge. Any police misconduct or brutality is dismissed by these people as "a few bad apples" when in fact the entire law enforcement community is rotten to the core. I doubt this mistakenly positive view of the police will change as long as the police limit their senseless brutality to a minority of the population.

Nevertheless, I'm not saying that it's necessarily time for the shooting to begin. As I said, if people want to avoid that, then IMO they need to find a way to hurt the system economically. Boycotts of businesses that deal with the police and others responsible for the growing police state would obviously be in order. No doubt there are other things that could be done, though I honestly haven't thought about it too much.


For example, imagine if the police didn't have tear gas and instead just shot protestors. The fallout from that would be enormous, and like the Boston Massacre, it would solidify the country's desire for real change. The worst thing the police could do would be to rachet up the violence, and I think they have already gone too far, out of fear. Overplayed their hand. The best thing for the protestors to do is keep at it and not back down or switch tactics.No doubt police shootings of protesters would cross the line. If that happened and Americans didn't start killing cops in retaliation, then we would all deserve to be enslaved or shot for our cowardice. America's founders didn't win their freedom by allowing the British to use them for target practice.


What they're doing really does have the potential to change things. The police and the Feds agree, or else they wouldn't be so quick to violently repress when that kind of strategy is probably going to do more harm than good in the long run.Sadly, I don't think it will change a thing. The pigs are violently repressing the protesters not because they fear them or their message, but simply because the type of asshole who's attracted to law enforcement these days finds it fun to beat up on "hippie scum" or anyone else they consider beneath themselves. It's nothing more than a bunch of sadists getting to indulge their fetish IMO.


I wish the protestors understood economics and monetary theory a little better, heh, but they really are patriots for getting out in the street like they are, and we should support them 100%.I do support them just for making a stink, although in truth there are a lot of things I'd much rather see people protesting about (such as a surveillance state that's growing far out of hand).

Anti Federalist
12-01-2011, 12:04 PM
Salon mag on the Military/Police state.

http://mobile.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2011/11/citizen_detainment_why_is_the_senate_so_determined _to_allow_the_u_s_military_to_arrest_and_detain_am ericans_.html

When Salon is talking about Posse Comitatus, you know shit is getting real.


There may be no good outcome here. It could be an unholy victory for both the prospect of unbridled executive power and for the collapse of any meaningful separation between domestic law enforcement and military authority. The law manages to expand the role of the military in domestic terror prosecutions and also limit the authority of the civilian justice system to thwart terrorism. These were legal principles to which even the Bush administration said they adhered.

As Adam Serwer explains: This new legislation will “overturn a precedent that was followed almost without exception by the Bush administration: Domestic terrorism arrests are the province of law enforcement, not the military.” Raha Wala of Human Rights First notes that “authorizing the military to detain terror suspects apprehended within the United States clearly goes against the spirit of the Posse Comitatus Act, a law that has prevented the military from taking on domestic law enforcement functions since the Civil War.” If you think the blurring of domestic policing and military authority is an Orwellian fantasy, you may want to consider the treatment of Occupy Wall Street protestors in recent weeks, or Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s claim that “I have my own army in the NYPD, which is the seventh biggest army in the world.”