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aaroche26
11-17-2011, 09:16 AM
AA

Conza88
11-17-2011, 10:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NtV-5POTSw&feature=channel_video_title

TheDriver
11-17-2011, 10:20 AM
You can learn more from Mises.org in a year, than you can learn at most major colleges in 4 years, easily.

Fr0m_3ur0pe
11-17-2011, 03:43 PM
At least learning Austrian school is much more cheaper. Besides, after you have learned all the basics of the Austrian approach, you can advance your knowledge to the mainstream and understand why it's wrong. After that you won't regret your choice.

_b_
11-17-2011, 07:04 PM
You can learn more from Mises.org in a year, than you can learn at most major colleges in 4 years, easily.
^^^ agreed

They even do online classes now.

aaroche26
11-17-2011, 08:03 PM
AA

dannno
11-17-2011, 08:12 PM
Yeah, I'm leaning toward that way. But I wonder if it will be useful in the business world....even If I'm not an owner. Will I be able to make better business decisions because of my home studies of Austrian Economics?

Austrian Economics has more to do with the functioning of the economy as a whole than individual business decisions. If you want to be an entrepreneur, you would be best off learning as much as you can about the business that you want to get into. Unfortunately this means learning the regulations that are placed on you, but also studying your competitors and the market that you are going to be selling in.

On the other hand, it really wouldn't hurt to spend a good amount of time studying Austrian Economics because it will help you understand how government mandates and regulations will be affecting your business which is important when making smart business decisions.

But really, everybody should learn at least the basic concepts behind Austrian Economics so we can get the government off our back and get to work.

Paulitics 2011
11-17-2011, 09:51 PM
Economic schools of thought are more relevant in macroeconomics than microeconomics, which is what would mostly apply when making business decisions. Austrian, Monetarist, Keynesian policies all have to do with the economy as a whole.

Conza88
11-17-2011, 11:18 PM
Yeah, I'm leaning toward that way. But I wonder if it will be useful in the business world....even If I'm not an owner. Will I be able to make better business decisions because of my home studies of Austrian Economics?

Praxeology delimits the possible scenarios. You get a better understanding of what is possible, or in term - what is not.

It's cetris parbius, you can tell given this scenario - this will happen, you can't tell exactly when though (since human action isn't predictable).

You can understand the consequences of state policy and legislation and what will result, hence position yourself better.

It's understanding reality... and that government cannot subvert it, no matter how hard it tries.

Since praxeology delimits the possibilities, you gain a slight advantage over time compared to others who dont understand.

Conza88
11-17-2011, 11:19 PM
Mises.org lectures, get an mp3 player.. I got through basically the entire thing in 6 months or so. Not all of it sunk in completely, but it was awesome.

Becker
11-18-2011, 02:37 AM
Mises.org lectures, get an mp3 player.. I got through basically the entire thing in 6 months or so. Not all of it sunk in completely, but it was awesome.

I didn't know there was something on mises.org that you've not memorized.

gerryb
11-18-2011, 04:14 AM
If your goal is to be an entrepreneur... study law, business, accounting, and marketing. Study Austrian economics as a hobby and to further your understanding of business.

I recently read No Treason by Lysander Spooner, and it made me want to study law and become a lawyer, maybe it will do the same for you. The only problem is Spooner failed as a lawyer(but succeeded in business) http://jim.com/treason.htm

If you want to get a degree for your studies, look into CLEP, DANTES, ECE, etc. testing. You can self-study and earn an associates or bachelors degree from an accredited college such as Excelsior college, Thomas Edison state college, or charter oak state college for under $4,000.

Seraphim
11-18-2011, 05:48 AM
To add to what Conza said,

Austrian Economics is descriptive, not prescriptive.

From a business perspective, it would help you make better decisions in real time as the surrounding environment changes (This new policy affects me, my client base etc is such and such a way, therefore I must divert X amount of Y resource to Z new capacity).

It will not help you spot future consumer trends. The entrepreneurial side of things is all you.


Praxeology delimits the possible scenarios. You get a better understanding of what is possible, or in term - what is not.

It's cetris parbius, you can tell given this scenario - this will happen, you can't tell exactly when though (since human action isn't predictable).

You can understand the consequences of state policy and legislation and what will result, hence position yourself better.

It's understanding reality... and that government cannot subvert it, no matter how hard it tries.

Since praxeology delimits the possibilities, you gain a slight advantage over time compared to others who dont understand.

Diurdi
11-18-2011, 06:04 AM
Yeah, I'm leaning toward that way. But I wonder if it will be useful in the business world....even If I'm not an owner. Will I be able to make better business decisions because of my home studies of Austrian Economics? You're not going to do well knowing only Austrian economics in that environment.

I personally recommend using Austrian economics as a completement to other business studies. You'll also be able to filter out the inevitable crap that they may try to teach you.

SilentBull
11-18-2011, 07:00 AM
Yeah, I'm leaning toward that way. But I wonder if it will be useful in the business world....even If I'm not an owner. Will I be able to make better business decisions because of my home studies of Austrian Economics?

If you are interested in business, I strongly recommend Personal MBA (http://personalmba.com/). That guy has a great book that introduces you to a lot of the different business topics and has a great reading list for you to follow.

aaroche26
11-18-2011, 10:57 AM
AA

dannno
11-18-2011, 12:56 PM
I really appreciate everyone's advice. Something else I'm interested in is the stock markets. So Austrian Economics should be useful and making investment decision when the Fed or U.S. Gov't gets involved with something.

Listen to Peter Schiff's radio program, subscribe to his video blog, listen to some of his older lectures and television appearances, etc..

Wesker1982
11-18-2011, 04:30 PM
Mises.org lectures, get an mp3 player.. I got through basically the entire thing in 6 months or so. Not all of it sunk in completely, but it was awesome.

Yep. I have listened to tons of audio books while mowing the lawn and driving. I probably learned more from a few hundred hours of audio books than the rest of my life combined lol.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
11-18-2011, 05:56 PM
Yeah, I'm leaning toward that way. But I wonder if it will be useful in the business world....even If I'm not an owner. Will I be able to make better business decisions because of my home studies of Austrian Economics?


I have an econ degree. It is helpful as a business owner (or proprietor or whatever you want to be) because understanding things like "sunk costs" are very important, and it's probably also very helpful to have a good handle on things like game theory. It's important to understand general microeconomics like supply/demand and be able to plot points on a graph.

I think my econ degree has helped me tremendously.

Austrian Economics is more like learning philosophy and philosophical thought. I personally appreciate that, but I don't think it has helped me a lot in business.

In my case, I had to teach myself how to work with computers and read a whole lot of marketing books. My econ degree has helped make me a better decision maker and it gave me the time I needed to learn other things while living off of student loans.

An economics degree will likely not get you a nice job unless you move on to an MBA or something else. Also, 90% of what you learn with an econ degree will be good for you. There's about 10% austrian school economists will not agree with. They are philosophers, and not mathematicians. They have proven themelves right repeatedly, even though they may sometimes conflict with the mathematical models.

The people that run around in these forums acting as if everything boils down to 'normal economics' versus 'austrian economics' usually know very little about either.



Something else I'm interested in is the stock markets.


I would get interested in something else. lol. Unless you have a lot of assets to protect or just appreciate the next dumber buyer theory or whatever it is it called, it is probably not a cool place to hang out. Keep in mind I'm just some guy on the internet, not Warren Buffet, etc. If you can develop a company and take it IPO, then you can probably make a lot of money. Seems like a crooked business as I've seen it over the last 20 years.

Steven Douglas
11-18-2011, 06:29 PM
The people that run around in these forums acting as if everything boils down to 'normal economics' versus 'austrian economics' usually know very little about either.

That cracked me up. Like, 'do you walk to work or do you take your lunch'? To me it's like saying "capitalist" versus "socialist", as if they really were opposites, or mutually exclusive - or that it was somehow understood exactly what was being referred to in either case.

There is a philosophy, with underlying tenets and sets of governing assumptions to both Keynesian (in all its variations) and Austrian economics. How the underlying assumptions of each are applied to actual regimes will undoubtedly produce different results, but that does not mean that "mainstream" economics is incapable of modeling or describing an economic system where Austrian economics theory is used as the normative construct. What it would do, I believe, is reveal some of the inherent weaknesses of certain parts of mainstream economics (especially its predictive capability), as with models which have been modeled by trial and error on the basis of a best fit, but strictly under a different regime.

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
11-18-2011, 07:39 PM
That cracked me up. Like, 'do you walk to work or do you take your lunch'? To me it's like saying "capitalist" versus "socialist", as if they really were opposites, or mutually exclusive - or that it was somehow understood exactly what was being referred to in either case.



I see it all the time. lol. And unfortunately, I think it undermines peoples' perceived value of learning economics at a college level because it is not described as "Austrian." I might be wrong, but it seems there are a ton of things that austrian school economists don't ever mention because they simply don't disagree with the "mainstream" analysis. They might rather get there in some way with logic, but it's not like they disagree on everything.

The problem is that the mathematical models throw 8-9 variables at you and say this is the equation we need work work with. Well, it turns out that logic beats that in a lot of cases. Otherwise, the mathematicians that entered economics have done a lot of good in some cases.

heavenlyboy34
11-18-2011, 07:59 PM
If you are interested in business, I strongly recommend Personal MBA (http://personalmba.com/). That guy has a great book that introduces you to a lot of the different business topics and has a great reading list for you to follow.
Neat. :) MIT may have an opencourseware class or several about business too.

Conza88
11-22-2011, 07:47 AM
“What we do is look for extremes in markets: very undervalued or very overvalued. [The Austrian School of economics] has certainly given us an edge. When you have a theory to work from, you avoid the problem that comes with stumbling around in the dark over chairs and nightstands. At least you can begin to visualise in the dark, which is where we all work. The future is always unlit. But with a body of theory, you can anticipate where the structures might lie. It allows you to step out of the way every once in a while.”

— James Grant

libertygirl2
11-22-2011, 08:11 AM
Do you all think it's worth putting in 40-50 hours a week reading/writing Austrian Economics instead of learning Economics in college? I'm interested in being an entrepreneur. I have a few ideas already. I posted a topic on this in another part of the forum, but I'd like to hear from those who've studied Austrian Economics and how they've they benefited from it minus knowing how a healthy economy functions.

Thanks.

I guess it depends whether or not you are looking to pursue a career in economics. Keynesian economics is what is largely taught in the academic world. It will probably be a struggle for you to learn the mathematical/statistical/econometrics part of economics without taking actual college courses. Either way, use mises.org as others have suggested. It is definitely worth your time to learn about the Austrian school.

vita3
11-22-2011, 09:00 AM
I was wondering where Austrian Economics been practiced & for what time period?

Athan
11-22-2011, 09:23 AM
If your going into business for yourself then Austrian economics is a better deal because its accurate and cheap. If your going to work for 'da man' and need that piece of paper, you go to college and pretend you care about their debunked keynesian "economics".

MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
11-24-2011, 04:39 PM
If your going into business for yourself then Austrian economics is a better deal because its accurate and cheap. If your going to work for 'da man' and need that piece of paper, you go to college and pretend you care about their debunked keynesian "economics".


Expand on that please. Share any credentials if you'd like. If I'm wrong, I want to know.

Cabal
11-24-2011, 04:52 PM
You can learn more from Mises.org in a year, than you can learn at most major colleges in 4 years, easily.

This has been my experience as well.

Becker
11-24-2011, 05:41 PM
Do you all think it's worth putting in 40-50 hours a week reading/writing Austrian Economics instead of learning Economics in college? I'm interested in being an entrepreneur. I have a few ideas already. I posted a topic on this in another part of the forum, but I'd like to hear from those who've studied Austrian Economics and how they've they benefited from it minus knowing how a healthy economy functions.

Thanks.

no, it isn't. If Conza is any indication of what Austrian economics is.
Ask Conza how much money he's made based on memorizing Mises.org
Then ask any business owner whether his success had anything to do with what theory of economics he subscribes to.

Becker
11-24-2011, 05:43 PM
I was wondering where Austrian Economics been practiced & for what time period?

Conza says Ancient Ireland for 1000 years, but he can't tell you what year to what year, and he admits its not better life than today. So God knows what he'll say if you asked him "do you prefer to have Austrian economics, or today's convenience, technology, and opportunities created by ignorance?" (assuming you had to choose, but its a no brainer unless you're brainwashed)

Becker
11-24-2011, 05:48 PM
“What we do is look for extremes in markets: very undervalued or very overvalued. [The Austrian School of economics] has certainly given us an edge. When you have a theory to work from, you avoid the problem that comes with stumbling around in the dark over chairs and nightstands. At least you can begin to visualise in the dark, which is where we all work. The future is always unlit. But with a body of theory, you can anticipate where the structures might lie. It allows you to step out of the way every once in a while.”

— James Grant

OK. Now, bragging time.

Tell us Mr. Conza, how much richer have you been being an Austrian?
I don't claim to know Austrian economics, though I prefer less regulation than more regulation.
My wealth made in the past 10 years is from my good habits, superior intelligence and willingness to take risk.
I didn't always buy gold, I traded gold like I did with any other stock or commodity, for the purpose of making money.
I learned tax code and markets, and used them. Austrian economics will get you nowhere when the market isn't in your favor, so you're better off learning how the market works. Keep telling yourself your system is more moral, we'll see how much that's worth in dollars or gold.

helmuth_hubener
11-26-2011, 01:43 AM
OK. Now, bragging time.

Tell us Mr. Conza, how much richer have you been being an Austrian?
I don't claim to know Austrian economics, though I prefer less regulation than more regulation.
My wealth made in the past 10 years is from my good habits, superior intelligence and willingness to take risk.
I didn't always buy gold, I traded gold like I did with any other stock or commodity, for the purpose of making money.
I learned tax code and markets, and used them. Austrian economics will get you nowhere when the market isn't in your favor, so you're better off learning how the market works. Keep telling yourself your system is more moral, we'll see how much that's worth in dollars or gold.

Honestly, Becker.

Do you ever have a point?

I mean, what is the motive? What dream are you pursuing here by posting on RonPaulForums? I must admit, your cluttering the board with ignorance becomes a little annoying. Do you not realize that you are on Conza's ignore list? Why are you calling out challenges to an empty room?

Seraphim
11-27-2011, 09:27 AM
Well, Austrian Economics holds ZERO moral attributes. Don't confuse Libertarian political ideals with Austrian Economics (despite the fact that many Libertarians are Austrian Econ students).

Austrian economics is founded on praxeology (human action) in a non empiral manner. The reason why empiricism is not on the docket for the Austrian, is that we Austrians are very in tune with the HUMAN aspect of ECONOMICS. While most Keynesians try so mightily to PRESCRIBE solutions with models driven by aggregates...the Austrian is more concerned with the decision making process that a person goes through as they plan to satisfy their self interest (do to an ever changing external environment).

Austrian economics is very good at describing how "herds" of INDIVIDUALS will act in accordance to their environment (whatever the current conditions may be).



OK. Now, bragging time.

Tell us Mr. Conza, how much richer have you been being an Austrian?
I don't claim to know Austrian economics, though I prefer less regulation than more regulation.
My wealth made in the past 10 years is from my good habits, superior intelligence and willingness to take risk.
I didn't always buy gold, I traded gold like I did with any other stock or commodity, for the purpose of making money.
I learned tax code and markets, and used them. Austrian economics will get you nowhere when the market isn't in your favor, so you're better off learning how the market works. Keep telling yourself your system is more moral, we'll see how much that's worth in dollars or gold.

Steven Douglas
11-27-2011, 11:08 AM
I'm glad Becker is here. Forget morals for a minute, as there is merit to what Becker is saying, even though he is equating it apples to oranges in ways he admits to not understanding (e.g., "I don't claim to know Austrian economics...").

Becker's attitude is not unlike the "King" in James Clavell's novel King Rat (a MUST, very enjoyable, very short read - differing in substance from the inferior movie by the same name).

King Rat takes place in 1945 in a Japanese POW camp, which features the "King" - an amoral, opportunistic and enterprising American corporal who takes full advantage of all the artificial rules and oppressive conditions of the camp, and becomes both "wealthy" and "healthy" (relative to everyone else living in the same squalor) in the process.

Despite extreme deprivations in the camp, the corporal is innovative, and able to actively serve enough interests, both inside and outside of the camp (the aid and cooperation of Japanese guards are crucial to his success), to create what amounts to a black market of his own, which he controls - such that he becomes surnamed, and known simply as "King". As such, the King thrives rather than simply survives, as the rest do.

At the end of the war (and the story), when the camp is liberated, the King's black market 'economy' of the camp is no longer of any value or use, and falls apart. His once rare trinkets, medicines, clothing, soaps, and food stuffs - even everything that the King owns and controls - including ties with guards who are now prisoners themselves - everything which is part of his entire 'empire', which he built from scratch, is now essentially worthless. There is shock, even indignation, on the parts of soldiers coming into the camp that all the other prisoners are emaciated and skeletal, dying from starvation, dysentery, etc., save one lone corporal, who has been there longer than most, but appears "normal". The King Rat greets the liberators in stark contrast from the rest, as he is the picture of thriving vitality and health, in clothes that are neat, clean and pressed. As such he is met with suspicion and even moral outrage by some of the liberators.

In the end, the King is just a corporal again - pretty much hated by everyone (not that he ever cared one way or the other).

The story ends, but does not follow the King - who could very well be just as opportunistic, and successful, under ANY regime. Despite the fact that his success in the camp was facilitated by oppression, he did act, and actively serve, a useful purpose in that camp. Despite his self-interested motives, he didn't just "take and redistribute wealth amongst the others". He did provide things that otherwise would not have been available to the other prisoners, and actually brought more into the camp economy with bribes and other favors that would not otherwise have existed. That is just a statement of reality, not morality. That does not make the King "good", any more than it can be used as an argument in favor of POW conditions (i.e., the broken window fallacy) which he did not create. The King is not like the Fed, or the government, which takes credit for every wonderful thing that happens in an economy. The King was merely a player on a chess board he had absolutely no hand in creating initially, like anyone else.

Austrian economics is another way of saying that another way exists outside our current POW camp conditions - which everyone has been conditioned to, and accepts as the norm. Nothing more. Knowing this will not necessarily "make your richer" - although it definitely could, based on a more comprehensive, more accurate and non-obfuscating understanding of how economies actually work - even in a Keynesian-rooted regime. Which brings me to another observation.

In a very real way, the King was exercising a form of Austrian economics, because while everyone else was looking only at the world within the bubble, the King took a far more comprehensive view of all the players involved, and the individual motivations of each. Furthermore, he was able to use his practical knowledge in a way that put the entire artificial camp economy into a much broader perspective. The King didn't just "hate the guards", as the others did. He saw them for what they were, but he also saw them as useful.

Understanding ANY economics regime IS Austrian economics in a nutshell; which, as Seraphim correctly stated, holds ZERO moral judgments. It only observes and seeks to understand basic praxeology, or human action, regardless of morals or motives. While Keynesian economists pretend not to be concerned with the "normative", Austrians both acknowledge and reject all of the many decidedly normative underpinnings of Keynesian theory.

So Becker states:


My wealth made in the past 10 years is from my good habits, superior intelligence and willingness to take risk. I didn't always buy gold, I traded gold like I did with any other stock or commodity, for the purpose of making money. I learned tax code and markets, and used them.


That is not because Becker "bought into" the whole of any particular economic theory. Most people who buy into modern economics (the way it is shoveled to the mainstream) end up blindly following a complex trail and network of smoke and mirrors that can lead to unnecessary and poorly understood risks (e.g., a housing bubble), which can wipe out wealth, as the illusion is uncovered and collapses, overnight. Likewise, a tax code - a hundreds of billions of dollars industry for CPA mages and wizards and financial priests to navigate and interpret deliberately overly-complex and highly interpretive Rube Goldberg machines of rules - with risks there as well.

Becker is not concerned with the how other systems might differ, or even the intricacies of any system. For him the rules or theories are just something to be learned, as bottom lines only, and strictly as a matter of pragmatics. And he is right. If the system was more sound, or based on a different set of rules and principles, he would learn those as well, and go with that flow with the same eye toward the same bottom lines of understanding - AND...as any Austrian economist worth his salt could easily argue, he could be even richer as a result.

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2011, 03:04 PM
Right, I have no problem with Becker getting rich. I hope everyone gets rich. Getting rich just doesn't prove that Austrian economics is wrong. Very interesting post, by the way, Steven.