[VIDEO] Our friends, OWS --- yes, let's find common ground with these people

[Cowlesy]

/sarcasm

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/05/chaos-video/#ooid=JpNWh5Mjqz1LVw-QZprwGCr0XoJdfZLh

I mean really, they're just like the Tea Party!

/heavier sarcasm

[bluesc]

Inb4 they don't represent the whole movement.

Blocking a guy and his two-year-old going home because he has a nice car? *sigh*

[Cowlesy]

Inb4 they don't represent the whole movement.

Blocking a guy and his two-year-old going home because he has a nice car? *sigh*

Pushing down old ladies is the New Killing It.

[jmdrake]

Some tea partiers where accused of violence during the protests against Obamacare, so I'm not sure what's the point of your "sarcasm". The OWS movement is very much like the tea party movement in the best and worst ways. Both are organic movements (well the tea party was an organic movement, but it has totally been co-opted now), both have elements that want real change, and both have elements that want to use natural yearning for change for other purposes. I was at a tea party rally where the opening prayer ended with "And Lord help us to support Israel through whom you will fulfill prophecy and bring our salvation." :eek:

[bluesc]

Pushing down old ladies is the New Killing It.

I didn't even get that far in. Disgusting.

[dannno]

They are more intelligent than the Fox News watching members of the Tea Party, imo. At least in my personal experiences at OWS events.

[acptulsa]

We do have a few things in common. I find it interesting how many more hits I'm getting on this particular post since the 'occupation' started:

http://laughterandliberty.com/the-declaration-of-independence-from-corporatism/

Seems they're at least making 'corporatism' a household word. This alone is probably worth their time and effort.

[KAYA]

Some tea partiers where accused of violence during the protests against Obamacare, so I'm not sure what's the point of your "sarcasm". The OWS movement is very much like the tea party movement in the best and worst ways. Both are organic movements (well the tea party was an organic movement, but it has totally been co-opted now), both have elements that want real change, and both have elements that want to use natural yearning for change for other purposes. I was at a tea party rally where the opening prayer ended with "And Lord help us to support Israel through whom you will fulfill prophecy and bring our salvation." :eek:

Care to share any credible evidence where tea-party protesters committed violence? Anything even remotely close to what has been shown in the above video?

[AuH20]

They are more indoctrinated than the Fox News watching members of the Tea Party, imo.

Fixed. At least the Tea Party isn't petitioning for the creator of income equality to rectify the problem of income equality.

[Cowlesy]

Some tea partiers where accused of violence during the protests against Obamacare, so I'm not sure what's the point of your "sarcasm". The OWS movement is very much like the tea party movement in the best and worst ways. Both are organic movements (well the tea party was an organic movement, but it has totally been co-opted now), both have elements that want real change, and both have elements that want to use natural yearning for change for other purposes. I was at a tea party rally where the opening prayer ended with "And Lord help us to support Israel through whom you will fulfill prophecy and bring our salvation." :eek:

Do you mean the Union Members who beat on that guy in Illinois? I wouldn't call them tea partiers. Did you actually watch the video? You think those people are our allies? Am I suddenly living on Mars?

[dannno]

It is interesting that they all refer to the structure of their interactions within the general assembly and other group meetings as "Democratic" when they are anything BUT Democratic!!

In fact, ONE person can block ANYTHING that the group decides to do collectively, so it is really anti-collectivist and anti-Democracy. If individuals within the group want to participate in something, for example, illegal camping, then they make that an individual decision. But if they vote on it as a group to camp, then ONE person can block the decision so NOBODY is forced to participate in anything.

It is really a voluntaryist-like society they have setup. Very fascinating to watch.

[AuH20]

Do you mean the Union Members who beat on that guy in Illinois? I wouldn't call them tea partiers. Did you actually watch the video? You think those people are our allies? Am I suddenly living on Mars?

Occupy is going after Governor Walker now.

http://occupywallst.org/article/99-visit-governor-walker/

[dannno]

Fixed. At least the Tea Party isn't petitioning for the creator of income equality to rectify the problem of income equality.

At least the OWS protesters are smart enough to realize that the systems of control have CREATED income inequality whereas most of the Tea Party protesters are too stupid to realize that there is something wrong with our economic system and economic disparities are in fact artificially created.

It is unfortunate that some of them believe that government should redistribute wealth, but I think that most of them, their main complaint is the fact that there is a system of control that creates these economic disparities in the first place.

[AuH20]

At least the OWS protesters are smart enough to realize that the systems of control have CREATED income inequality whereas most of the Tea Party protesters are too stupid to realize that there is something wrong with our economic system.

Most of the Tea Party protesters are anti-Federal Reserve and anti-crony capitalism. The Tea Party isn't the problem. It's the Republican party and the tea party hold a very small sway over what the Republican party does.

[dannno]

It is interesting that they all refer to the structure of their interactions within the general assembly and other group meetings as "Democratic" when they are anything BUT Democratic!!

In fact, ONE person can block ANYTHING that the group decides to do collectively, so it is really anti-collectivist and anti-Democracy. If individuals within the group want to participate in something, for example, illegal camping, then they make that an individual decision. But if they vote on it as a group to camp, then ONE person can block the decision so NOBODY is forced to participate in anything.

It is really a voluntaryist-like society they have setup. Very fascinating to watch.

I'm thinking about setting up a workshop to teach my local OWS group about the tyranny of Democracy and what their interactions can teach us about that.

For them, Democracy simply means the people being in control instead of a power structure. When they say Democracy, they actually mean a system where people control what happens, not necessarily a tyranny of the majority.

This problem is created by loose definitions of these terms.

[KAYA]

They are more intelligent than the Fox News watching members of the Tea Party, imo. At least in my personal experiences at OWS events.

You mean like these brainiacs?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H47tHjR5oA

[NewRightLibertarian]

Do you mean the Union Members who beat on that guy in Illinois? I wouldn't call them tea partiers. Did you actually watch the video? You think those people are our allies? Am I suddenly living on Mars?

Some people will defend these idiots no matter how ugly their behavior becomes because 'at least they're doing something'


At least the OWS protesters are smart enough to realize that the systems of control have CREATED income inequality whereas most of the Tea Party protesters are too stupid to realize that there is something wrong with our economic system and economic disparities are in fact artificially created.

Do you have any proof of these accusations you are hurling or are you just talking out of your ass in a desperate attempt to carry water for this mob?

[dannno]

Most of the Tea Party protesters are anti-Federal Reserve and anti-crony capitalism. The Tea Party isn't the problem. It's the Republican party and the tea party hold a very small sway over what the Republican party does.

I doubt most of the Tea Party protesters want to abolish the Fed and it is easy to say you're against crony capitalism... but when you're cheering for another Halliburton war against Libya or Iran, are you really anti-crony capitalism?

[dannno]

You mean like these brainiacs?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H47tHjR5oA

There were plenty of racists at the Tea Parties as well.

I'm talking about the 50-100 people I have interacted with personally in the last couple of days at a local OWS meeting, that was not recorded.

I guarentee those people are more intelligent than your average tea partier.. although to be fair, this group is right by a college campus.

[NewRightLibertarian]

There were plenty of racists at the Tea Parties as well.


Again, you just hurl these accusations without any proof. It's sad to hear people on the Ron Paul forums of all places mindlessly repeat these media-created lies as if they are fact.

[dannno]

Some people will defend these idiots no matter how ugly their behavior becomes because 'at least they're doing something'

lol.. I'm not defending the behavior of the people in the OP, I'm pointing out that the OP is an isolated incident and doesn't represent the movement as a whole.




Do you have any proof of these accusations you are hurling or are you just talking out of your ass in a desperate attempt to carry water for this mob?

Tea Partier types are the ones going around yelling at OWS protesters to "get a job".. Ya.. with 20% unemployment, high taxes and regulations, you expect someone to just go out and get a job that doesn't pay them jack shit?

[dannno]

Again, you just hurl these accusations without any proof. It's sad to hear people on the Ron Paul forums of all places mindlessly repeat these media-created lies as if they are fact.

LOL!!

Are you really going to argue that there were not any racists at the Tea Party events?? You have to be fucking kidding me..

Look, do you know how many fucking HOURS I spent arguing with progressives that racists do NOT represent the Tea Party movement as a whole???

Now look what I'm doing, I'm having the SAME EXACT FUCKING CONVERSATION with people who are doing the SAME EXACT THING MSNBC was doing to the Tea Party!! You are taking isolated incidents and using them to define the entire movement!! Look in the mirror!

[jmdrake]

Care to share any credible evidence where tea-party protesters committed violence? Anything even remotely close to what has been shown in the above video?

Well first off I don't consider the above video to be all that "credible" either. But here's the video for what you ask.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=111086&catid=8

But hey, if you want to be in "us versus them" mode, despite what Ron Paul has to say on the subject, I won't stand in your way.

[KAYA]

I'm thinking about setting up a workshop to teach my local OWS group about the tyranny of Democracy and what their interactions can teach us about that.

For them, Democracy simply means the people being in control instead of a power structure. When they say Democracy, they actually mean a system where people control what happens, not necessarily a tyranny of the majority.

This problem is created by loose definitions of these terms.

Bull-sh!t. They complain when anyone "infringes" on their rights yet go right ahead and collectively block the public streets so others cannot pass for no other reason than "they" the protesters don't want them to pass. They stand outside of office buildings and collectively prevent other people who have done nothing to them from getting out and leaving the building. And they are not above shoving children and the elderly in the process. This is the tyranny of the majority on display.

[sailingaway]

They are telling people in Iowa it is immoral and unethical to caucus for anyone. Only mind because the media interviewed a guy who said he caucused for Ron in 2008 but didn't know if he thought it was moral to caucus for anyone and perpetuate the system....that maybe the ows folks were right...

Seems they haven't noticed that with the lowest vote rate in the Western world it is always just spun as CONTENTMENT.

[specsaregood]

/sarcasm
http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/05/chaos-video/#ooid=JpNWh5Mjqz1LVw-QZprwGCr0XoJdfZLh
I mean really, they're just like the Tea Party!
/heavier sarcasm

Seeing as we have many rpf members here that have taken part in the OWS events, I'd expect better from a mod than such divisiveness.

[dannno]

Bull-sh!t. They complain when anyone "infringes" on their rights yet go right ahead and collectively block the public streets so others cannot pass for no other reason than "they" the protesters don't want them to pass. They stand outside of office buildings and collectively prevent other people who have done nothing to them from getting out and going home and are not above shoving children and the elderly in the process. This is the tyranny of the majority on display.

They are fucking with a system that is corrupt, broken and destroying us as we speak. Somebody needs to step up and do it peacefully, and generally they are doing a great job.

[amy31416]

They only block "luxury" cars?

Damn. I grew up with the notion that any running car that can get you from point A to B in a reasonably safe manner was a luxury vehicle.

Wonder if they'd stop a low-rider that's had 20k put into it--probably not.

[jmdrake]

Some folks here need to watch the below video 50 times so that it can sink in.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK3tMKz3PrM

[sailingaway]

They are fucking with a system that is corrupt, broken and destroying us as we speak. Somebody needs to step up and do it peacefully, and generally they are doing a great job.

I'm sure they vary greatly from place to place just as the tea parties did. Some were neocon astroturf, some Beckians, some Paulites..... they varied. Doubtless these do as well.

But I want people in Iowa caucusing for Ron.

[dannno]

So why does RPF have to imitate what MSNBC did to the Tea Party? Do you people not see the hypocrisy??




Look, do you know how many fucking HOURS I spent arguing with progressives that racists do NOT represent the Tea Party movement as a whole???

Now look what I'm doing, I'm having the SAME EXACT FUCKING CONVERSATION with people who are doing the SAME EXACT THING MSNBC was doing to the Tea Party!! You are taking isolated incidents and using them to define the entire movement!! Look in the mirror!

[jmdrake]

Bull-sh!t. They complain when anyone "infringes" on their rights yet go right ahead and collectively block the public streets so others cannot pass for no other reason than "they" the protesters don't want them to pass. They stand outside of office buildings and collectively prevent other people who have done nothing to them from getting out and leaving the building. And they are not above shoving children and the elderly in the process. This is the tyranny of the majority on display.

And some Ron Paul supporters threw snowballs at Sean Hannity. I guess we should be collectively judged on that too. :rolleyes:

[dannno]

But I want people in Iowa caucusing for Ron.

Who said not to?

Some anonymous people on the internet?

You don't think the CIA participates in their shit?

[KAYA]

Well first off I don't consider the above video to be all that "credible" either. But here's the video for what you ask.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=111086&catid=8

But hey, if you want to be in "us versus them" mode, despite what Ron Paul has to say on the subject, I won't stand in your way.

The video isn't playing. I read the article and it did say "violence broke out" but does not say from who, nor does it say what happened.

[NewRightLibertarian]

LOL!!

Are you really going to argue that there were not any racists at the Tea Party events?? You have to be fucking kidding me..

There were certainly agent provocateurs there designed to infiltrate the movement and paint the whole movement as racist or crazy. I'm sure there were some racists there, but there's racists probably within every political movement.


Now look what I'm doing, I'm having the SAME EXACT FUCKING CONVERSATION with people who are doing the SAME EXACT THING MSNBC was doing to the Tea Party!! You are taking isolated incidents and using them to define the entire movement!! Look in the mirror!

These aren't isolated incidents. It's repeated behavior from the many different occupy protests. These are Obama's foot soldiers. If they really wanted to fix the country, they wouldn't be blocking legitimate commerce and luxury vehicles and they'd be working to get Ron Paul elected. But then they couldn't get the free cash they want from 'the rich'

[sailingaway]

Who said not to?

Some anonymous people on the internet?

You don't think the CIA participates in their shit?

no, this was an Iowa local paper reporting on what they were told interviewing OWS people in Iowa.

[Philhelm]

They are more intelligent than the Fox News watching members of the Tea Party, imo. At least in my personal experiences at OWS events.

If they had a higher WIS attribute, they would have made their Will Saving Throw vs. Statist Enchantment.

[dannno]

There were certainly agent provocateurs there designed to infiltrate the movement and paint the whole movement as racist or crazy. I'm sure there were some racists there, but there's racists probably within every political movement.



These aren't isolated incidents. It's repeated behavior.

I don't doubt there were agent provocateurs at Tea Party events acting racist, in fact I'd bet on it. The establishment has to continue their divide and conquer strategy. The problem is you are playing into their strategy.

I also don't doubt there were a lot of regular people there who weren't displaying their racism on a sign, but were still racist.. the point is that we are playing into the strategy of divide and conquer instead of finding coalitions and creating common ground. That is what Ron Paul advocates, and he does so for good reason. Divide and conquer is a very old, yet very effective strategy.

[NewRightLibertarian]

I don't doubt there were agent provocateurs at Tea Party events acting racist, in fact I'd bet on it. The establishment has to continue their divide and conquer strategy. The problem is you are playing into their strategy.

No, I'm definitely not. I'm just calling this movement what it is. You're the one playing into their strategy by supporting an Obama-backed protest of fools.

[Cowlesy]

Seeing as we have many rpf members here that have taken part in the OWS events, I'd expect better from a mod than such divisiveness.

And I definitely didn't expect so many here to apologize or defend bullying, intimidation, violence and victimology tactics on random motorists and conference attendees from avowed leftists.

[KAYA]

No, I'm definitely not. I'm just calling this movement what it is. You're the one playing into their strategy by supporting an Obama-backed protest of fools.
;)

[pcosmar]

/sarcasm

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/05/chaos-video/#ooid=JpNWh5Mjqz1LVw-QZprwGCr0XoJdfZLh

I mean really, they're just like the Tea Party!


/heavier sarcasm

Wait a minute. This is Washington DC. (not even justifying the idiots)
The same Washington DC where an army of cops showed up for a dance?

They are blocking streets and stopping cars?

I saw one cop in that video. late into it.

The Confrontation at the building did not look like what I have seen at other occupy protests.

Staged for media event.

[LibertyEagle]

I have a question.

If the majority of these people do in fact know what's up, why are they "occupying Wall Street" instead of the sources of the problem, the government and the Federal Reserve Banks?

[AuH20]

I have a question.

If the majority of these people do in fact know what's up, why are they "occupying Wall Street" instead of the sources of the problem, the government and the Federal Reserve Banks?

Because they enjoy the taste of handouts and anything breaking free from this paradigm is unacceptable. Do you think they would be out in the streets, if there were a mass forgiving of student debt or the inception of a huge federal jobs program ? The push against Wall Street corruption is a suitable vehicle for them to accomplish their objectives. The corruption doesn't bother them as much as the fact, that they weren't necessarily taken care of.

[pcosmar]

Wait a minute.


Staged for media event.

Wait there's more. It seems this was a lot more than an Occupy event..

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/07/koch-group-staffers-event-attendees-911-hung-up-on-us-four-times-during-occupy-dc-mob

And the distinct lack of usual or even normal police presence makes me think this was a staged event.

[jmdrake]

I have a question.

If the majority of these people do in fact know what's up, why are they "occupying Wall Street" instead of the sources of the problem, the government and the Federal Reserve Banks?

Who says a majority of them know what's up? It seems that a majority don't want to re-elect Obama and that's a good start. Do a majority of the tea party understand that the federal reserve is the source of the problem? If so then why have so many of them supported former Fed governor Herman Cain? I think a majority of both the tea party and OWS realize that something is wrong, but they aren't informed enough to put their finger on exactly what that something is.

[jmdrake]

No, I'm definitely not. I'm just calling this movement what it is. You're the one playing into their strategy by supporting an Obama-backed protest of fools.

And yet over 50% of these "Obama-backed protest of fools" do not support Obama (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?324505-Approximately-48-of-Occupy-Wall-Street-would-re-elect-Obama). Go figure. :rolleyes:

[jmdrake]

And I definitely didn't expect so many here to apologize or defend bullying, intimidation, violence and victimology tactics on random motorists and conference attendees from avowed leftists.

Yes. We should all become collectivist sheep who say "Tea party goooood...OWS baaaaaad".

[AuH20]

Yes. We should all become collectivist sheep who say "Tea party goooood...OWS baaaaaad".

No, that's not even it. The Tea Party recognizes the concept of private property and the inherent evil residing in the beltway. While some of them still harbor Marshall Plan delusions, they are on the same wavelength that we are. OWS seems to be this herd irate that the Wall Streeters have stolen the tax payer generated graft that was supposed to finance their future. I for one make no claims on any tax revenue. Let the tax revenue evaporate into the ether.

[jmdrake]

No, that's not even it. The Tea Party recognizes the concept of private property and the inherent evil residing in the beltway. While some of them still harbor Marshall Plan delusions, they are on the same wavelength that we are. OWS seems to be this herd irate that the Wall Streeters have stolen the tax payer generated graft that was supposed to finance their future. I for one make no claims on any tax revenue. Let the tax revenue evaporate into the ether.

Many are not on the same wavelength as us regarding foreign policy which is why Herman "don't audit the Federal Reserve and increase taxes on everyone making < $200,000 per year" Cain is still near at or near the top of the heap and Mitt "Obamacare was really my idea...but I'm going claim that it isn't for the sake of the primary" is right there with him and Rick "I'll take money from Merck to force little girls to take an experiment STD vaccine" is still in the thick of things as is Newt "Watch me make a carbon tax commercial with Nancy Pelosi" Gingrich. Same wavelength my foot!

[Cowlesy]

Yes. We should all become collectivist sheep who say "Tea party goooood...OWS baaaaaad".

People crap all over the tea party people here. Unfortunately they are likely republican voters, who we need to vote for Ron Paul. Yet, how dare any of us criticize our vaunted allies the Occupiers pushing around old women and trying to storm into private events, or screaming expletives at a Daily Caller reporter who is a member of Ron Paul's Young Americans for Liberty.

I knew you were going to do that, make this an either/or with the Tea Party. Most of us think the Tea Party is a joke now, but these Occupiers are more than ready to take this thing violent, yet we need to bend over backward to be OK with that. It's just non-sensical to me.

[specsaregood]

No, that's not even it. The Tea Party recognizes the concept of private property...
Unless you are a muslim that is; in which case you don't have a right to private property or any rights of what to do with it....

[pcosmar]

People crap all over the tea party people here. Unfortunately they are likely republican voters, who we need to vote for Ron Paul. Yet, how dare any of us criticize our vaunted allies the Occupiers pushing around old women and trying to storm into private events, or screaming expletives at a Daily Caller reporter who is a member of Ron Paul's Young Americans for Liberty.

I knew you were going to do that, make this an either/or with the Tea Party. Most of us think the Tea Party is a joke now, but these Occupiers are more than ready to take this thing violent, yet we need to bend over backward to be OK with that. It's just non-sensical to me.

Actually I see both as being Co-Opted, Media Maligned and misrepresented.
I see both as having clueless hangers on.

I see both as a threat to TPTB.

And unless those that are a threat to TPTB find common ground and work together they will be divided and defeated in the best case scenario and turned against each other in a Civil War in the worst scenario.

[Miss Annie]

Unless you are a muslim that is; in which case you don't have a right to private property or any rights of what to do with it....

I am a Christian, and I can say that the the media has done a pretty good job at fear mongering and pitting people against one another. But let's not let them win! Let's like on each other anyway! :D We need to be showing the public that it's all bullshit!

[angelatc]

Most of the Tea Party protesters are anti-Federal Reserve and anti-crony capitalism. The Tea Party isn't the problem. It's the Republican party and the tea party hold a very small sway over what the Republican party does.

Bingo.

[jmdrake]

People crap all over the tea party people here.

And people crap all over OWS here too. And? As for myself I went to tea party rallies. If they weren't all co-opted now to the point that they no longer even have rallies (at least not here in Tennessee) I'd still be going. I was at a tea party rally when one booth had a giant Israeli flag towering over a tiny U.S. flag one day before U.S. independence day. So don't give me grief about the tea party. I've done my share of outreach to them and then some.



Unfortunately they are likely republican voters, who we need to vote for Ron Paul.

And in an open primary states like where I live in a year where there will be no democratic primary we can pick up democrat and independent votes. So far I've gotten personal commitments from about 15 friends and family members who voted for Obama to either vote for or at least strongly consider voting for Ron Paul in the GOP primary. How many McCain voters have you flipped?



Yet, how dare any of us criticize our vaunted allies the Occupiers pushing around old women and trying to storm into private events, or screaming expletives at a Daily Caller reporter who is a member of Ron Paul's Young Americans for Liberty.


Criticize them all you want. And feel free to criticize the Ron Paul supporters who threw snowballs at Sean Hannity last election cycle or who put a Ron Paul sticker on Herman Cain's bus this cycle. Just don't overgeneralize.



I knew you were going to do that, make this an either/or with the Tea Party. Most of us think the Tea Party is a joke now, but some of these Occupiers are more than ready to take this thing violent, yet we need to bend over backward to be OK with that. It's just non-sensical to me.

Fixed it for you.

And please watch this video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DK3tMKz3PrM

[angelatc]

People crap all over the tea party people here. Unfortunately they are likely republican voters, who we need to vote for Ron Paul. Yet, how dare any of us criticize our vaunted allies the Occupiers pushing around old women and trying to storm into private events, or screaming expletives at a Daily Caller reporter who is a member of Ron Paul's Young Americans for Liberty.

I knew you were going to do that, make this an either/or with the Tea Party. Most of us think the Tea Party is a joke now, but these Occupiers are more than ready to take this thing violent, yet we need to bend over backward to be OK with that. It's just non-sensical to me.

I'm right there with you, my brother.

[angelatc]

And yet over 50% of these "Obama-backed protest of fools" do not support Obama (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?324505-Approximately-48-of-Occupy-Wall-Street-would-re-elect-Obama). Go figure. :rolleyes:

If you don't think they'll vote for him anyway, you're delusional.

[pcosmar]

Most of the Tea Party protesters are anti-Federal Reserve and anti-crony capitalism. The Tea Party isn't the problem. It's the Republican party and the tea party hold a very small sway over what the Republican party does.

And the tea party was Co-Opted. And is now a bunch of rabid warmongers, Cain supporters (Federal Reserve).

This movement also started off targeting the Federal Reserve.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XySGw-g2tyk

See anything in common here?

[jmdrake]

Actually I see both as being Co-Opted, Media Maligned and misrepresented.
I see both as having clueless hangers on.

I see both as a threat to TPTB.

And unless those that are a threat to TPTB find common ground and work together they will be divided and defeated in the best case scenario and turned against each other in a Civil War in the worst scenario.

+rep! Thread winner! I wish other people were able to grasp this. Really folks quit being had by those who want us all to fit neatly in our little boxes. Back when Bush was president and he, Obama and McCain all came out solidly for the TARP bailout 90% of Americans were against the bailout. Talk about the "99%" that's it! That 90% includes republicans, democrats, socialists and even "stormfront" neo-nazi types. But TPTB are doing their best to neutralize both left and right wing opposition to their grand theft auto of the American dream by getting each side to focus on what they don't like about the other side. I was at a church dinner during last election cycle where the whole room was buzzing about how bad the bailout was. Everybody was against it and this was a room full of Obama supporters. But then one person said "But what about that John McCain not supporting equal pay for equal way". Bringing up that one wedge issue was all it took to distract an entire room from the real problem. The same happens with "tea party" types when someone says "Well what about that Obama not supporting Israel" or "repealing DADT" or any other right wing wedge issue. It's sad that more of us here can't see this.

[klamath]

Hell being violent makes them more popular with some members of RPF's. They get off on that sh*t because it is opposing the system, and it doesn't matter if they are innocent bystanders getting hurt or not. Gotta break some eggs to make an omlette they say. Yeeah Men! Thank you OP for clearly showing who condones violence against innocent. The lines are getting very clear.

[jmdrake]

If you don't think they'll vote for him anyway, you're delusional.

I don't care if they vote for him in the general election. They can't vote for him in the primary. If you don't understand that then you're delusional. While your busy crapping on OWS, I'm busy spreading the message in an open primary state that since dems don't have anyone to vote for in the primary they might as well vote for Ron Paul. So far I've been about 80 to 90% successful in that effort.

[angelatc]

SO, the Tea Pary was a plot, or even if it wasn't it's been coopted, but Anonymous isn't part of a plot, and the socialists at OWS are just a coincidence. The fact the MoveOn.org is partnering with OWS must be a mistakem because they're not really an organization. And the bonds with the unions, and the Marxists ...all just coincidence.

There's a New World Order that controls everything we see and do, but Anonymous isn't part of that, even though nobody knows who they are.

And that fact that this is happening just in time for the elections - just like the war protests - just a coincidence.

Yeah, ok.

[jmdrake]

And the tea party was Co-Opted. And is now a bunch of rabid warmongers, Cain supporters (Federal Reserve).

This movement also started off targeting the Federal Reserve.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XySGw-g2tyk

See anything in common here?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pcosmar again.

Keep trying. Eventually some folks may listen. They don't seem interested in listening to Dr. Paul on this.

[jmdrake]

SO, the Tea Pary was a plot, or even if it wasn't it's been coopted, but Anonymous isn't part of a plot, and the socialists at OWS are just a coincidence. The fact the MoveOn.org is partnering with OWS must be a mistakem because they're not really an organization. And the bonds with the unions, and the Marxists ...all just coincidence.

There's a New World Order that controls everything we see and do, but Anonymous isn't part of that, even though nobody knows who they are.

And that fact that this is happening just in time for the elections - just like the war protests - just a coincidence.

Yeah, ok.

Did you even read what he said? He said both have been co-opted. Goodness.

[angelatc]

I don't care if they vote for him in the general election. They can't vote for him in the primary. If you don't understand that then you're delusional. While your busy crapping on OWS, I'm busy spreading the message in an open primary state that since dems don't have anyone to vote for in the primary they might as well vote for Ron Paul. So far I've been about 80 to 90% successful in that effort.

You should care if they vote for him in the election. And I predict if approximately .5% of the people you've talked to turn out to vote for Ron Paul in the GOP primary, you've surpassed my greatest expectations.

Tying Ron Paul to OWS is the worst possible thing you can do for the long term health of the Revolution right now, but God knows there's no stopping a fool on an errand.

[jct74]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgcRlrt2ZL4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl_2WJTyE2A

From video description:


Occupy DC Protesters assaulted conservatives as they exited an Americans For Prosperity "Tribute to Ronald Reagan" dinner. http://www.americansforprosperity.org

This elderly woman, 78 years old, rode 11 hrs on a bus from Detroit to attend the dinner. After the attack she was taken to hospital with multiple injuries, a bloody nose which developed after the fall, and a large knot on her head. After x-rays and a CAT scan, she was released the following morning with cuts and large bruises.

Update: Further uploaded video footage shows the second woman to have been brought to the ground by a conference attendee losing his temper and pushing through the Occupier chain. ( /watch?v=pTnOwaTRDog )While it was clearly a mistake on his part, and wrong, it is also equally true that the dinner attendees should have been able to go to dinner at a public place without wild, aggressive people imprisoning them in a human chain as they tried to leave the venue! This is not protesting, this is physical intimidation and harassment. However, the older lady and others were clearly pushed by the occupiers over the stairs as other occupiers released their side of the chain.

Further comment: the strength and pressure of intense people with their arms locked in a human chain, on three sides, pushing against a group of unprepared people dressed for dinner is very powerful. When the chain is broken on the other side of the mob, it is not surprising that those people, including the victim in the video, would spring forward and lose balance.

[angelatc]

Did you even read what he said? He said both have been co-opted. Goodness.

And I am saying that OWS wasn't co-opted. It was planned from the start. Goodness.

[pcosmar]

And I am saying that OWS wasn't co-opted. It was planned from the start. Goodness.

And I am pointing out that you are full of shit.
I have been following it all year, before the Oct 17 date for occupation was even proposed.

[legion]

I have a question.

If the majority of these people do in fact know what's up, why are they "occupying Wall Street" instead of the sources of the problem, the government and the Federal Reserve Banks?

Could it be possible that all of these are the same problem?

The government, wall street, and the federal reserve.

Is that possible?

[pcosmar]

Could it be possible that all of these are the same problem?

The government, wall street, and the federal reserve.

Is that possible?

They ARE. It all starts with the Federal Reserve.

http://kropotkinoid.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/octopus.png

[dannno]

SO, the Tea Pary was a plot, or even if it wasn't it's been coopted, but Anonymous isn't part of a plot, and the socialists at OWS are just a coincidence. The fact the MoveOn.org is partnering with OWS must be a mistakem because they're not really an organization. And the bonds with the unions, and the Marxists ...all just coincidence.

There's a New World Order that controls everything we see and do, but Anonymous isn't part of that, even though nobody knows who they are.

And that fact that this is happening just in time for the elections - just like the war protests - just a coincidence.

Yeah, ok.


I don't agree with your post at all, in fact I've addressed every single one of these issues several times.

[Toureg89]

There were plenty of racists at the Tea Parties as well.

I'm talking about the 50-100 people I have interacted with personally in the last couple of days at a local OWS meeting, that was not recorded.

I guarentee those people are more intelligent than your average tea partier.. although to be fair, this group is right by a college campus.
and OWS also has racist people in it. you have people who, on video complain Obama hasn't fulfilled his promises, but say they won't vote against him because he is black.

[pcosmar]

and OWS also has racist people in it. you have people who, on video complain Obama hasn't fulfilled his promises, but say they won't vote against him because he is black.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNkLBSsFnxY

[ryanmkeisling]

...I think a majority of both the tea party and OWS realize that something is wrong, but they aren't informed enough to put their finger on exactly what that something is.

This^

There are a lot of lemmings involved on both sides, and to try and put a finger on the "cause" for both OWS and the tea party movement is not to hard. I respect both the tea party and OWS because it shows me that these people are not just sitting in front of a TV somewhere eating potato chips.

[Cowlesy]

And I am pointing out that you are full of shit.
I have been following it all year, before the Oct 17 date for occupation was even proposed.

Really?

http://lalternativaitalia.blogspot.com/2011/10/lucis-trust-behind-occupy-wall-street.html

[Cowlesy]

Hell being violent makes them more popular with some members of RPF's. They get off on that sh*t because it is opposing the system, and it doesn't matter if they are innocent bystanders getting hurt or not. Gotta break some eggs to make an omlette they say. Yeeah Men! Thank you OP for clearly showing who condones violence against innocent. The lines are getting very clear.

It floors me. We've regressed a long way since I started on this forum. Glad I am not the only one seeing it. And I love the diversionary tactics of trying to make the thread about something other than street violence against innocent people, although, these people "might not be innocent" as we all know purple haired old ladies probably "deserve it." Collateral damage you know.

[UWDude]

No, I'm definitely not. I'm just calling this movement what it is. You're the one playing into their strategy by supporting an Obama-backed protest of fools.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, douchebag. Find me a video of anyone wearing Obama gear at an occupy movement, especially in the camps. I've seen one obama hat the entire time Ive been in Occupy Seattle. I have met far more Ron Paul supporters than Obama supporters. In fact, I have only met two people the whole time that said they still hoped Obama would do something, but met dozens of Ron Paul supporters.

Oh, and once Ron loses the primaries, a bunch of twits liek you are going to show up and try to take ideological charge, because you don't have a clue what this is about, outside your MSM interpretations and lame ass youtube videos posted by haters.

[pcosmar]

Really?

http://lalternativaitalia.blogspot.com/2011/10/lucis-trust-behind-occupy-wall-street.html

Yes really.
That blog is a lot of shit that has nothing to do with the origins of OpESR, or A99. All of which I had posted here several times. They mention Adbusters as the start and center of this,,,but they were late comers.(and I believe a mistake and source of most of the Co-opting)

And this ,,

One more thing: the participants' slogan is "We are the 99%" (referred to the difference in wealth between the top 1% and the other citizens of the United States).

But no mention of the man that wrote that well over a year before,, Or the fact that his focus was on the Federal Reserve, the IMF and The World Bank.
The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America
http://ampedstatus.com/full-report-the-economic-elite-vs-the-people-of-the-united-states-of-america


Yes, of course, we all have very strong differences of opinion on many issues. However, like our Founding Fathers before us, we must put aside our differences and unite to fight a common enemy.

It has now become evident to a critical mass that the Republican and Democratic parties, along with all three branches of our government, have been bought off by a well-organized Economic Elite who are tactically destroying our way of life. The harsh truth is that 99% of the US population no longer has political representation. The US economy, government and tax system are now blatantly rigged against us.

[Todd]

There were plenty of racists at the Tea Parties as well.

I'm talking about the 50-100 people I have interacted with personally in the last couple of days at a local OWS meeting, that was not recorded.

I guarentee those people are more intelligent than your average tea partier.. although to be fair, this group is right by a college campus.

I think you mistake intelligence with groups of young people who know how to navigate our public education system.

[erowe1]

They are more intelligent than the Fox News watching members of the Tea Party, imo. At least in my personal experiences at OWS events.

They might be more intelligent. But the basic problem with OWS, as with statism more generally, is a moral one, not an intellectual one.

[dannno]

I've introduced a lot of cops and OWS protesters to the Oath Keepers organization.

[Cowlesy]

Wait a minute. This is Washington DC. (not even justifying the idiots)
The same Washington DC where an army of cops showed up for a dance?

They are blocking streets and stopping cars?

I saw one cop in that video. late into it.

The Confrontation at the building did not look like what I have seen at other occupy protests.

Staged for media event.

Ah okay. Clearly there is no debating you about that whole event. Definitely staged. Those old Republican types, the kids, the camera person and the cops were definitely all in on it. Why did I not see that?


Yes really.
That blog is a lot of shit that has nothing to do with the origins of OpESR, or A99. All of which I had posted here several times. They mention Adbusters as the start and center of this,,,but they were late comers.(and I believe a mistake and source of most of the Co-opting)

And this ,,


But no mention of the man that wrote that well over a year before,, Or the fact that his focus was on the Federal Reserve, the IMF and The World Bank.
The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America
http://ampedstatus.com/full-report-the-economic-elite-vs-the-people-of-the-united-states-of-america

Good to know that a blog with tenuous information is definitely a "lot of shit", but a candid video is NWO production.

Just wanted to see if we were going to be objective or just stick with biases.

[jmdrake]

It floors me. We've regressed a long way since I started on this forum.

Yes. You sure have. :( Your initial post is sarcasm about Ron Paul's idea of finding common ground with these people. I've posted the video where he says that multiple times in this thread and you keep ignoring that. Why? Do I agree with everything that everyone at OWS does? Of course not. For you to try to pretend that is the case is the real "diversionary tactic". That said I don't agree with everything every Ron Paul supporter does either. Do you?

[jmdrake]

And I am saying that OWS wasn't co-opted. It was planned from the start. Goodness.

You know, unlike some here I won't pretend to be a self appointed or blog read expert on the origins of OWS. I can say that right now it is less co-opted than the tea party. At least where I live it is. I can still go up to the protests and talk to people. I saw a couple of Christians there last time carrying "Occupy the Altar" signs. There whole gig was the country needs to get back to God. That kind of open access to whoever wants to show up no longer happens at tea party functions here in Middle TN. When the local big tea party fraudster held his last big event it was a pay per view Sarah Palin appearance and neither the CFL nor the JBS were allowed to get a table at the event. The tea party is locked down like Ft. Knox used to be.

[pcosmar]

Ah okay. Clearly there is no debating you about that whole event. Definitely staged.

I said my impression of it was a staged event. Yes, it seems so to me.



Just wanted to see if we were going to be objective or just stick with biases.
People have been posting a LOT of shit about the origins of this, trying to paint it as Soro's inspired.

They did the same with the Tea Party and the Koch brothers.

Guess what,, Soro's and Koch are on the same team.

I will post this again. This is the origin of this movement.
http://ampedstatus.org/a-report-from-the-frontlines-the-long-road-to-occupywallstreet-and-the-origins-of-the-99-movement/

And yes, I think Adbusters was a mistake in retrospect. A lot of the Marxist's and radical "anarchists" came from there.

Many of the people involved are from the "left" side. certainly not all,, but many. But TPTB do not want people getting together on Ending the Federal Reserve or disturbing the Status Quo. better to have all Americans fighting each other than the real problem.

[amy31416]

Eh. From what I've observed, if a person is a former/reformed neocon, they are more likely to support the Tea Party and forgive some of the co-option because they believe they can communicate with and relate better to them. If a person is a former democrat/neoliberal, they are more likely to support OWS because they believe, in the same vein, that there is an opportunity there to gain support.

And many people have family/friends who are involved, which makes it personal. Except for Dannno--who probably just sees OWS as an opportunity to possibly score some tail and weed--not very likely at a Tea Party. :p

I see myself doing similar things from time to time, and realize that part of me had some formative years in the liberal camp, even though I was raised conservative. Personally, I think that some people would work well at OWS, but not the Tea Party or vice-versa. We're diverse, and the natural hostility that arises from these differences is something we should get over.

[jmdrake]

Eh. From what I've observed, if a person is a former/reformed neocon, they are more likely to support the Tea Party and forgive some of the co-option because they believe they can communicate with and relate better to them. If a person is a former democrat/neoliberal, they are more likely to support OWS because they believe, in the same vein, that there is an opportunity there to gain support.

And many people have family/friends who are involved, which makes it personal. Except for Dannno--who probably just sees OWS as an opportunity to possibly score some tail and weed--not very likely at a Tea Party. :p

I see myself doing similar things from time to time, and realize that part of me had some formative years in the liberal camp, even though I was raised conservative. Personally, I think that some people would work well at OWS, but not the Tea Party or vice-versa. We're diverse, and the natural hostility that arises from these differences is something we should get over.

+rep. Best post in thread.

[Cowlesy]

Yes. You sure have. :( Your initial post is sarcasm about Ron Paul's idea of finding common ground with these people. I've posted the video where he says that multiple times in this thread and you keep ignoring that. Why? Do I agree with everything that everyone at OWS does? Of course not. For you to try to pretend that is the case is the real "diversionary tactic". That said I don't agree with everything every Ron Paul supporter does either. Do you?

No, I am not finding common ground with people who are violent against random old people.

And I am not finding common ground with these people either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_6RjveCDPs

But by all means, please go convince them that personal responsibility and constitutional conservatism is what they really want.

[AuH20]

Many are not on the same wavelength as us regarding foreign policy which is why Herman "don't audit the Federal Reserve and increase taxes on everyone making < $200,000 per year" Cain is still near at or near the top of the heap and Mitt "Obamacare was really my idea...but I'm going claim that it isn't for the sake of the primary" is right there with him and Rick "I'll take money from Merck to force little girls to take an experiment STD vaccine" is still in the thick of things as is Newt "Watch me make a carbon tax commercial with Nancy Pelosi" Gingrich. Same wavelength my foot!

Herman Cain, Mitt and Newt are all persona non grata with the Tea Party. The Tea Party doesn't have anyone to take to the dance so to speak.

[Cowlesy]

Herman Cain, Mitt and Newt are all persona non grata with the Tea Party. The Tea Party doesn't have anyone to take to the dance so to speak.

I'd disagree. The co-opted Tea Party people LOVE Herman Cain. I don't even regard the Tea Party as any sort of viable entity for my views any further. And I definitely have zip in common with OWS.

[jmdrake]

No, I am not finding common ground with people who are violent against random old people.

And I am not finding common ground with these people either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_6RjveCDPs

But by all means, please go convince them that personal responsibility and constitutional conservatism is what they really want.

Yeah. You just have common ground with these folks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4BU8pfz2O4

As for me I have common ground with Ron Paul who asked me to have common ground with both groups. Sorry if that bugs you.

Edit: I just saw you distance yourself from the tea party too in your response to AuH2O. That's fine. But I'm not interested in either as groups. I'm interested in reaching individuals in both groups.

[AuH20]

I'd disagree. The co-opted Tea Party people LOVE Herman Cain. I don't even regard the Tea Party as any sort of viable entity for my views any further. And I definitely have zip in common with OWS.

Half of the Tea Party is freaking awesome. I love them like brothers. Take for example this sign I brought to a NYC Tea Party in 2008. They loved it.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa215/sharptalons/IMG_0685.jpg

[pcosmar]

Herman Cain, Mitt and Newt are all persona non grata with the Tea Party. The Tea Party doesn't have anyone to take to the dance so to speak.
What?
The Koch brothers have been pushing the shit out of Cain.(Federal Reserve Candidate) The tea party has been pushing him and here in Michigan they are pushing Mitt.

The Tea Party pushed a Neo-Con rubber stamp in my district and The Fascist Governor we have now.
Not the original tea party but the one that exists now.(Co-Opted)

[Cowlesy]

Yeah. You just have common ground with these folks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4BU8pfz2O4

As for me I have common ground with Ron Paul who asked me to have common ground with both groups. Sorry if that bugs you.

I don't condone any of that, but I never see you guys condemn mob violence. By the way, according to the comments, that crazy lady according to the video owner's comments was sentenced to probation, community service and anger management classes. I'm looking but I just can't seem to find mobs of Tea Partiers surrounding cars, trying to invade private events, using kids as shields, or pushing around old ladies just trying to move from Point A to Point B, unlike some asshole disrupting some event with his bullhorn.

Edit: Also, I am not sure if teaching people how to build guillotines is something with which we want to be associated.

http://i.imgur.com/XeQFZ.jpg

[AuH20]

What?
The Koch brothers have been pushing the shit out of Cain.(Federal Reserve Candidate) The tea party has been pushing him and here in Michigan they are pushing Mitt.

The Tea Party pushed a Neo-Con rubber stamp in my district and The Fascist Governor we have now.
Not the original tea party but the one that exists now.(Co-Opted)

Tea Party is not co-opted. It's divided into 2 halves. Give me the good, irreverent half of the Tea Party over the OWS beggar caravan any day of the week. No negotiations with the criminal government. Defund the beast!!!!!

[pcosmar]

No negotiations with the criminal government. Defund the beast!!!!!

That is the same side of OWS that I am working.

[AuH20]

That is the same side of OWS that I am working.

Good luck with your endeavor.

[AuH20]

I will say this. OWS gets significantly better, once you get west of the Mississippi.

[klamath]

I'd disagree. The co-opted Tea Party people LOVE Herman Cain. I don't even regard the Tea Party as any sort of viable entity for my views any further. And I definitely have zip in common with OWS.
+1 I never joined any teaparty group except RP's. As far as I am concerned only three people were elected on the principles of RP; Rand, Lee and Amish. The only thing I supported the other 70 teaparty congressmens election was to throw a cog in Obama's run away agenda. It has been somewhat effective for that only because of partisan politics. OWS wishes to elect progressive democrats and socialists and marxists which would suit a Obama second term real well and start up another even worse run away agenda.

[UWDude]

No, I am not finding common ground with people who are violent against random old people.

And I am not finding common ground with these people either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_6RjveCDPs

But by all means, please go convince them that personal responsibility and constitutional conservatism is what they really want.

You are a real piece of work. You do realize there are 1250+ Occupy movements worldwide, don't you? You like to pick and choose ridiculous little videos like this and claim it applies to all. That looked like 30 retards from oakland, but this is what Occupy Oakland really looks like:

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299247_2650421700236_1246549653_33266216_514672958 _n.jpg

They are putting Ron Paulies to shame. You guys think you are going to vote your way out of this mess? Excuse me while I laugh.



Edit: Also, I am not sure if teaching people how to build guillotines is something with which we want to be associated.


Do you believe in the death penalty? Oh, and do you know a joke when you see one?


Speaking of jokes, I find it laughable some retards actually think people are living in the bitter cold with the homeless and the crazy people of the streets because they are being paid of by shadowy liberal organizations. The idea is so farcical if you have actually ever been to an occupy camp. Of course, the clucks tip-tap-typing their lives away online reading stupid blogs and bullshit waiting for their next fix of hate never stop to think how ridiculously stupid and misguided they are when they repeat such ridiculous conspiracies.

[Endgame]

I've been to my OWS 15 times. An open mind, subtlety and courage. That's all it takes. You don't need to show up waving Ron Paul banners. Don't ever do that. The crowd is wary of being co-opted by any politician. A polite conversation to plant some ideas here and there. An articulate speech when necessary to get people thinking, or to counter a blatant attempt to co-opt the movement or spread authoritarianism. Egomaniacs and agents of the current power structure with an agenda are easily spotted and called out. Emphasize the horizontal and anarchic nature of the movement when necessary. We are not agents of the current power structure. We are revolutionaries and this is a revolutionary environment. Get used to it.

Calibrate your language to the crowd. Have a strong frame, don't pretend you're an "infiltrator". Become the movement. Then the movement becomes whatever you are. Even if nothing but leftist ideas are being presented, you can ensure that the ensuing discussion emphasizes only the issues that we agree with progressives on. Find allies wherever you can. Be tolerant and friendly towards all. The majority of people there are not set in their ideologies, regardless of what they are saying when you first meet them. The tone can be shifted sometimes drastically by the words and actions of one individual who has the balls to speak up. In the rare situations and discussions where none of this is possible, be a neutral observer. See history as it's going down. Not a single day has passed there where I have not been astounded at the things I have simply seen and heard, and the people I've met.

The socialists are better at organizing and have dominated the previous century because they're more social than we are. Get out of your fucking basement and start talking to people. The media coverage of this phenomenon is meaningless. That isn't reality. Those fuckers want the populist rage in the US permanently divided along left/right lines. We are beyond all that.

This is the beginning of revolution. It's now or never for us. Libertarians are the only ones open minded enough to walk in OWS and the Tea Party. We are fish in water. We see the corruption in both the government and the corporations. We must participate as much as possible, add our ideas to the meme pool. They can thrive in places where they have never been heard. Anything less is cowardice and defeat.

[DamianTV]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I0pX9LeE-g8

[NewRightLibertarian]

You are a real piece of work. You do realize there are 1250+ Occupy movements worldwide, don't you? You like to pick and choose ridiculous little videos like this and claim it applies to all. That looked like 30 retards from oakland, but this is what Occupy Oakland really looks like:

http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299247_2650421700236_1246549653_33266216_514672958 _n.jpg

They are putting Ron Paulies to shame. You guys think you are going to vote your way out of this mess? Excuse me while I laugh.

You can keep dismissing the behavior of these people as a 'few little videos' but that's going to only become harder and harder for you as they keep rolling in. And you are probably at the wrong forums if you think this mob is 'putting Ron Paulies to shame'. Go join with Obama, MoveOn.org, Jesse Jackson and all the street dwellers for solidarity somewhere else if you believe something as stupid as that.


Speaking of jokes, I find it laughable some retards actually think people are living in the bitter cold with the homeless and the crazy people of the streets because they are being paid of by shadowy liberal organizations.

They are useful idiots. Their genuine stupidity would be laughable if they weren't out there blocking traffic, stopping legitimate commerce and mindlessly repeating thoughtless slogans.


The idea is so farcical if you have actually ever been to an occupy camp. Of course, the clucks tip-tap-typing their lives away online reading stupid blogs and bullshit waiting for their next fix of hate never stop to think how ridiculously stupid and misguided they are when they repeat such ridiculous conspiracies.

The people who are online are making a better use of their time than the people out in the streets doing a political party's bidding, that's for sure. Some of you really have a hard time accepting what this movement is all about. It is strange how the mob mentality infects even people in the Ron Paul movement which seems to stress individualism.

[UWDude]

You can keep dismissing the behavior of these people as a 'few little videos' but that's going to only become harder and harder for you as they keep rolling in.

1250+ occupy movements worldwide, and you little twerps shit your pants for joy when you find one little youtube video of stupid people doing something stupid. I saw the same bullshit tactic used against ron paulies plenty of times.



They are useful idiots. Their genuine stupidity would be laughable if they weren't out there blocking traffic, stopping legitimate commerce and mindlessly repeating thoughtless slogans.

the reason why people repeat slogans is because you cannot chant long winded explanations of why things are wrong. You know, that's
why people chant "Ron Paul, Ron Paul" and "end the fed, end the fed"



The people who are online are making a better use of their time

lol


than the people out in the streets doing a political party's bidding,

which party?

Once again, you don't know wtf you are talking about. I dare you to go to an occupy movement and ask them if they plan on voting democrat.


Some of you really have a hard time accepting what this movement is all about. It is strange how the mob mentality infects even people in the Ron Paul movement which seems to stress individualism.

LoL. Dec 2010, telling me what "this movement" is all about. Also, what is this "seems to" stress individualism? You fail.

[UWDude]

dp

[NewRightLibertarian]

1250+ occupy movements worldwide, and you little twerps shit your pants for joy when you find one little youtube video of stupid people doing something stupid. I saw the same bullshit tactic used against ron paulies plenty of times.

Ok, so we shouldn't consider the behavior of these protesters because doing so makes the mob which you have loyalty to look terrible. Gotcha.


the reason why people repeat slogans is because you cannot chant long winded explanations of why things are wrong. You know, that's
why people chant "Ron Paul, Ron Paul" and "end the fed, end the fed"

At least those chants are worthwhile.


which party?

Once again, you don't know wtf you are talking about. I dare you to go to an occupy movement and ask them if they plan on voting democrat.

I would not waste my time going and trying to reason with these people. It would be better to work toward promoting Ron Paul to likely GOP voters and getting the word out about him and his campaign for liberty. But I guess you'd rather go down there and rub elbows with a bunch of dupes instead. Too bad for you.


LoL. Dec 2010, telling me what "this movement" is all about. Also, what is this "seems to" stress individualism? You fail.

Bringing up when I registered for an internet forum as if that is relevant only shows that you are shallow and pedantic. But I guess you need to resort to that kind of stuff when you're trying to defend this easily cooptable mass of shit that is festering throughout the world called Occupy.

[Czolgosz]

I've been to my OWS 15 times. An open mind, subtlety and courage. That's all it takes. You don't need to show up waving Ron Paul banners. Don't ever do that. The crowd is wary of being co-opted by any politician. A polite conversation to plant some ideas here and there. An articulate speech when necessary to get people thinking, or to counter a blatant attempt to co-opt the movement or spread authoritarianism. Egomaniacs and agents of the current power structure with an agenda are easily spotted and called out. Emphasize the horizontal and anarchic nature of the movement when necessary. We are not agents of the current power structure. We are revolutionaries and this is a revolutionary environment. Get used to it.

Calibrate your language to the crowd. Have a strong frame, don't pretend you're an "infiltrator". Become the movement. Then the movement becomes whatever you are. Even if nothing but leftist ideas are being presented, you can ensure that the ensuing discussion emphasizes only the issues that we agree with progressives on. Find allies wherever you can. Be tolerant and friendly towards all. The majority of people there are not set in their ideologies, regardless of what they are saying when you first meet them. The tone can be shifted sometimes drastically by the words and actions of one individual who has the balls to speak up. In the rare situations and discussions where none of this is possible, be a neutral observer. See history as it's going down. Not a single day has passed there where I have not been astounded at the things I have simply seen and heard, and the people I've met.

The socialists are better at organizing and have dominated the previous century because they're more social than we are. Get out of your fucking basement and start talking to people. The media coverage of this phenomenon is meaningless. That isn't reality. Those fuckers want the populist rage in the US permanently divided along left/right lines. We are beyond all that.

This is the beginning of revolution. It's now or never for us. Libertarians are the only ones open minded enough to walk in OWS and the Tea Party. We are fish in water. We see the corruption in both the government and the corporations. We must participate as much as possible, add our ideas to the meme pool. They can thrive in places where they have never been heard. Anything less is cowardice and defeat.

Well said, man.


If we only protest w/ whom we agree liberty will be stuck on forums and blogs as it dies a slow death.

[angelatc]

Bingo on the useful idiots.

[Anti Federalist]

FWIW I think street actions are worthless myself.

I've taken part in more than a couple, some of them pretty big, and they have almost no effect that I can see.

Put 50 million people in the street, then, maybe.

[Czolgosz]

FWIW I think street actions are worthless myself.

I've taken part in more than a couple, some of them pretty big, and they have almost no effect that I can see.

Put 50 million people in the street, then, maybe.



Liberty needs to fight from every angle.

[Cowlesy]

You don't give us free food, we'll destroy your lifestyle you filthy capitalist food cart vendors!!!

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/socal-street-cart-vendors-hurting-after-occupy-group-splatters-blood-urine/

But I know, we shouldn't condemn splattering blood and urine on a hapless food cart vendor's livelihood. I mean these protesters really just are misunderstood!

[AuH20]

FWIW I think street actions are worthless myself.

I've taken part in more than a couple, some of them pretty big, and they have almost no effect that I can see.

Put 50 million people in the street, then, maybe.

They are exercises in futility. That's why they are tolerated. Rahm Emmanuel stated that the first amendment is overrated, because he knows where the power lies. Until we start seeing surgical strikes on the puppetmasters, you won't see anything change.

[AuH20]

Doing the same thing over and over.........................and expecting a different result...

http://reason.com/archives/2011/11/07/bailouts-for-me-but-not-for-th


“We are blessed with 2 full time jobs but still pay on student loans 16 years after graduating,” wrote one. “We live paycheck to paycheck and are one car repair away from missing our mortgage payment.” Another said he wanted to become a science teacher, “but I’m shrouded in inflated student debts I didn’t foresee.” There was a 41-year-old MBA with $80,000 in student debt, a second-year college student who has racked up $20,000 in debt so far, the over-educated couple who probably won’t be buying a house or having kids because of student loans, the public school teacher who lamented that “my kids owe a quarter of a million $ in student loans.” As a fellow 99 percenter summed it up, “I did everything i was supposed to do: went to college, got good grades, participated in sports and clubs, graduated on time. 3 years later i have nothing to show for it.”

To the extent that people were merely describing the grisly details of living through what has been the first- or second-lousiest economy since the Great Depression, most of us can empathize (even those of us who made the conscious decision to never incur student debt or buy a house). There is a growing body of economic literature suggesting that higher education is experiencing a price bubble at a time when the job market for graduates is more difficult than usual—though still exponentially better than that for nongraduates. But when unhappiness over the disappointing results of freely made choices spills into policy recommendations, the putative libertarian-progressive alliance breaks down—and the logic of the Occupy Wall Street movement eats its own tail.

[PaulConventionWV]

They are more intelligent than the Fox News watching members of the Tea Party, imo. At least in my personal experiences at OWS events.

Well, good thing we're not cmopeting for fake tea party cred, but rather real liberty cred. Sounds like you're just making excuses for you liberal ilk.

[PaulConventionWV]

There were plenty of racists at the Tea Parties as well.

I'm talking about the 50-100 people I have interacted with personally in the last couple of days at a local OWS meeting, that was not recorded.

I guarentee those people are more intelligent than your average tea partier.. although to be fair, this group is right by a college campus.

So what about that 10 minute conversation you had about not referring to people by their perceived gender? Does that sound liberty-oriented to you or more social-engineering type stuff? Do you really think that these are the vital issues we should be discussing? By the way, I don't see why you keep attacking the co-opted tea party when it's not even about the tea party. It's about liberty. See past your labels for once. The OWS movement has shown us what they are, and they certainly don't care about liberty any more than the fake tea party does. It's not about OWS vs tea party. It's about personal freedom.

[PaulConventionWV]

Wait there's more. It seems this was a lot more than an Occupy event..

http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/07/koch-group-staffers-event-attendees-911-hung-up-on-us-four-times-during-occupy-dc-mob

And the distinct lack of usual or even normal police presence makes me think this was a staged event.

What are you talking about? I saw quite a few cops in that video. You complain when the cops are there, then you complain when they aren't because it's a "setup." You want to have your cake and eat it too.

[PaulConventionWV]

And yet over 50% of these "Obama-backed protest of fools" do not support Obama (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?324505-Approximately-48-of-Occupy-Wall-Street-would-re-elect-Obama). Go figure. :rolleyes:

Over 50% as in 52%? LOL

Puh-lease. They may not be a majority, per se, but they are certainly a very large plurality, and there are many others who don't support Obama but would support a different democrat with the same ideals and/or don't support him befcause he's not extreme enough. The fact that you can defend them based on that one narrow statistic is just laughable. I thought better of you than that, jmdrake.

[brandon]

Care to share any credible evidence where tea-party protesters committed violence? Anything even remotely close to what has been shown in the above video? I know I'm a little late, but here ya go:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbnEy_U9pYk

[PaulConventionWV]

And people crap all over OWS here too. And? As for myself I went to tea party rallies. If they weren't all co-opted now to the point that they no longer even have rallies (at least not here in Tennessee) I'd still be going. I was at a tea party rally when one booth had a giant Israeli flag towering over a tiny U.S. flag one day before U.S. independence day. So don't give me grief about the tea party. I've done my share of outreach to them and then some.

The OWS protests are obviously different from tea party rallies, but that is not the point. The people promoting an "us vs. them" mentality are the same ones defending the OWS protests. It's always "the tea party is bad too" when they forget the point is not to defend the tea party, but to defend liberty. I dislike both the tea party and OWS because they are bad on liberty, but for different reasons. From what I have seen though, the OWS protesters are staunchly anti-liberty.


And in an open primary states like where I live in a year where there will be no democratic primary we can pick up democrat and independent votes. So far I've gotten personal commitments from about 15 friends and family members who voted for Obama to either vote for or at least strongly consider voting for Ron Paul in the GOP primary. How many McCain voters have you flipped?

I, for one, don't care about the voter potential. I have always said you can talk to OWS protesters if you want. Just don't try to take part in their protests as if it were something that represented the liberty movement or our beliefs. However, you must realize that gaining republican votes is more valuable than democrat votes because 1)they are already registered, and 2)that support has to come from another republican candidate, thus increasing the chances of Ron Paul winning. If you gain someone from youtside the party, you don't get that turnover effect.


Criticize them all you want. And feel free to criticize the Ron Paul supporters who threw snowballs at Sean Hannity last election cycle or who put a Ron Paul sticker on Herman Cain's bus this cycle. Just don't overgeneralize.

Make no mistake, I'm not tryiing to overgeneralize anything. But it is WAY too easy to say any legitimate criticism of an event or movement is "over-generalizing." You have to realize that there are many legitimate criticisms. The violence here is not an isolated event.


Fixed it for you.

And please watch this video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DK3tMKz3PrM

Ron Paul thinks they have a legitimate reason for being upset. WHO HERE IS ARGUING AGAINST THAT? Ron Paul has said he doesn't know what the movement is about. He withholds judgment because he's a politician. That doesn't mean we should all jump on the OWS bandwagon. To suggest otherwise is immature and naive.

[klamath]

I know I'm a little late, but here ya go:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbnEy_U9pYk
Yeaw and you know what not very many people around here condoned that guy putting his foot on her even though she is the one that started the violent acts by trying to jab the edge of a sign into Rand's face. Yet there seems to be lots of excuses for OWS violence and shifting of the blame around here now.

[dannno]

Ok, so we shouldn't consider the behavior of these protesters because doing so makes the mob which you have loyalty to look terrible. Gotcha.

What are you talking about?! UWDude just made an excellent point, that there are 1250+ occupy groups worldwide, and that every time one little bad incident comes up you blame the entire movement!! It's like blaming the entire RP movement for throwing snowballs at Hannity when it was probably less than five people doing it (even tho a slightly bigger crowd was yelling at him and following him)..

But you COMPLETELY are missing the point, just read the paragraph above again and think about what we are saying a little bit harder or something. It's not that difficult to see that the tactics YOU ARE PERSONALLY using are BS tacticts that the media employs against Ron Paul supporters CONSTANTLY!!





I would not waste my time going and trying to reason with these people. It would be better to work toward promoting Ron Paul to likely GOP voters and getting the word out about him and his campaign for liberty. But I guess you'd rather go down there and rub elbows with a bunch of dupes instead. Too bad for you.


Wow, this is insane.. do you NOT SEE the picture up there?? Do you think RP supporters could get together a crowd like that?? NO!! Not at the moment!! Occupy is DWARFING our movement!! And you want to ignore them?? Ya, real smart..

UWDude made so many good points, and in your arguments you are completely ignoring them!! The REAL dupes are the ones sitting at home thinking that everything is ok, they are the likely Republican and Democrat voters who have been duped into the two party system!! OWS protesters are less of dupes than the people you are trying to convert because they realize we live in a really corrupt system and most of them elected Obama thinking that it would change things, now they are looking for better answers!!

[dannno]

Yeaw and you know what not very many people around here condoned that guy putting his foot on her even though she is the one that started the violent acts by trying to jab the edge of a sign into Rand's face. Yet there seems to be lots of excuses for OWS violence and shifting of the blame around here now.

I know what you're doing, you're trying to pretend that i am advocating violence. You did it a long time ago in this thread and now I'm going to address it.

Thousands of people occupying a public street is not violent.

[PaulConventionWV]

You know, unlike some here I won't pretend to be a self appointed or blog read expert on the origins of OWS. I can say that right now it is less co-opted than the tea party. At least where I live it is. I can still go up to the protests and talk to people. I saw a couple of Christians there last time carrying "Occupy the Altar" signs. There whole gig was the country needs to get back to God. That kind of open access to whoever wants to show up no longer happens at tea party functions here in Middle TN. When the local big tea party fraudster held his last big event it was a pay per view Sarah Palin appearance and neither the CFL nor the JBS were allowed to get a table at the event. The tea party is locked down like Ft. Knox used to be.

Open protests are not a good thing. The founding fathers warned against these. The message can be anything, and you can bet the government will take advantage of that "anything" part to say they are responding to the people.

[PaulConventionWV]

Yeah. You just have common ground with these folks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4BU8pfz2O4

As for me I have common ground with Ron Paul who asked me to have common ground with both groups. Sorry if that bugs you.

Edit: I just saw you distance yourself from the tea party too in your response to AuH2O. That's fine. But I'm not interested in either as groups. I'm interested in reaching individuals in both groups.

Jmdrake, it is your perfect right to go associate with whomever you would like. I personally don't care if you think you can get some votes from them. The point is, we shouldn't endorse their protest or act like we're a part of it. If you want to sway them, go ahead and try. I will support you and anyone else, if you really think you can gain votes from there, which I am skeptical of, but that's bgeside the point. It's when people act like this was a liberty thing all along and that we should be marching and occupying and carrying signs with them that I get frustrated because I can see quite clearly that this is not and has nothing to do with the liberyt movement.

[NewRightLibertarian]

What are you talking about?! UWDude just made an excellent point, that there are 1250+ occupy groups worldwide, and that every time one little bad incident comes up you blame the entire movement!! It's like blaming the entire RP movement for throwing snowballs at Hannity when it was probably less than five people doing it (even tho a slightly bigger crowd was yelling at him and following him)..

You all keep saying we shouldn't take the actual behavior of people in the movement as somehow representing the movement. This makes no sense. This must be the kind of bizarre reasoning people like you have to follow when they're actually excited about a mob of idiots who discuss trivial minutia like 'whether they should be using gender neutral pronouns to address others since some people may take offense to being identified by their perceived gender.' Sure it's a widespread movement, but that only proves that there are a lot of fools on this planet.


But you COMPLETELY are missing the point, just read the paragraph above again and think about what we are saying a little bit harder or something. It's not that difficult to see that the tactics YOU ARE PERSONALLY using are BS tacticts that the media employs against Ron Paul supporters CONSTANTLY!!

Taking the repeated behaviors of the people of this movement into consideration when making judgements about them isn't what Ron Paul bashers do. They misrepresent his statements and the statements of his followers. I am not misrepresenting the behavior of the occupiers. It may warm your heart that all these people are taking action, but their cause is simply not worthwhile. If they really wanted to be apart of the solution, they wouldn't be blocking traffic, shutting down legitimate commerce and mindlessly repeating chants as if they were in some type of a weird cult. They'd instead be working to get Ron Paul elected.


Wow, this is insane.. do you NOT SEE the picture up there?? Do you think RP supporters could get together a crowd like that?? NO!! Not at the moment!! Occupy is DWARFING our movement!! And you want to ignore them?? Ya, real smart..

They are not liberty minded people no matter how much you delutedly believe them to be. It's a waste of time associating ourselves with this Obama and MoveOn.org supported mob. It doesn't take a genius to understand where this is going, but I can understand how the mob mentality takes a hold of weak-minded people like you.


UWDude made so many good points, and in your arguments you are completely ignoring them!! The REAL dupes are the ones sitting at home thinking that everything is ok, they are the likely Republican and Democrat voters who have been duped into the two party system!! OWS protesters are less of dupes than the people you are trying to convert because they realize we live in a really corrupt system and most of them elected Obama thinking that it would change things, now they are looking for better answers!!

UWDude has no good points and neither do you. If they really cared about the system being corrupt, the demonstrations would be more focused about the Federal Reserve and the Federal Government. But instead they occupy Wall Street because it's a Democratic Party influenced controlled sham. If they somehow succeed, the ruling class would not get removed from power.

[pcosmar]

Open protests are not a good thing. The founding fathers warned against these.

Bullshit. The founding fathers advocated protest and revolution.
That was the purpose of the second amendment.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants"

It has gone on too long and too few have paid the price.


"...God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms!"

[pcosmar]

. If they really cared about the system being corrupt, the demonstrations would be more focused about the Federal Reserve and the Federal Government.

That is what it is about. You are just too blind and stupid to see past the media bullshit.

[Rothbardian Girl]

I hate walking into firestorm threads that already have thirteen pages of discussion on them, because I don't think anyone is going to bother reading lengthy posts after the main issues seem to have been endlessly debated, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.

First of all, both sides of the argument can be accused of cherry-picking videos to suit their particular agenda. I think it happened with the Tea Party a while back on this forum, when discussions about the Tea Party were popular, but the exact same thing is happening now with the anti-OWS fervor. Those of you saying the OWS folks are "staunchly anti-liberty", I say you cannot be more wrong. Many of these people have identified the symptom of income inequality, which is the fact that Wall Street is the right arm of the corporatocracy that currently exists in this country. Again, if you're on this forum, you know that the Federal Reserve is also a large part of it, too. Any centralized system of control in this country has inevitably contributed to income disparity, especially the context in which it exists today, because it has steadily gained power over the last hundred years or so. This is all pretty common knowledge, I think.

Some of you have said that all OWS does is "blame the rich". Well, when you have this extent of distortion and disparity, what else are you supposed to do? The mega-rich people in this country usually become that way because they are successful at using the same regulations that supposedly curb their companies' growth to crowd out competition. I don't think these protesters are against free-market ideals so much as they are against the opposite of those ideals, which is monopoly. I think the real dichotomy here is between competition and monopoly, not capitalism or state socialism. Capitalism and state socialism are really two sides of the same coin. I personally don't understand the defense of capitalism that is contained implicitly within some of the posts here opposing OWS. Of course, not everyone at the OWS protests understands the point I'm trying to make here.

OWS as I see it is a rally against the entrenched system, and yes, that unfortunately includes Wall Street. Our society has evolved in technology to the point where many of the "services" that Wall Street provides (really to aid the increasing centralization and accumulation of wealth to the top so-called "1 percent") could easily be filled by other means. The history of Wall Street is closely intertwined with the history of crony capitalism in the United States, something which many people here rail against. Are we really to believe that if we just let Wall Street continue in its current incarnation, which has been heavily backed by the crony capitalists we have all come to know and love, assuming no more counterproductive regulations are added, that the problems will just go away? Anyone who points this out is automatically an apologist for state socialism? I seriously doubt this. We need to be careful about labeling people.

As for the supposed lack of respect for private property shown by the OWS protesters, sure, I agree that vandalism is bad because it is counterproductive and easily seen as immature; plus, targeting average Joes and vandalizing their cars is not the way to go. But if you're talking about their tendency to camp in vacant property supposedly owned by banks, I really don't see a problem with that. If bank-owned property sits vacant while people are cold and hungry, I don't see anything particularly just about that. It also remains to be seen how much property in the US is actually wholly private anymore, either, considering property is nowadays inextricably linked with the state and all its associated systems of privilege. Again, that is not meant to justify vandalism; I am just trying to challenge peoples' notions of private property. It's not as simple as everyone makes it out to be. A few reforms and "getting the government out of everything" is not going to solve the inequalities inherent within the system.

In the context of this larger argument, I couldn't:
-Care less whether some people at Tea Party rallies are racist.
-Care less whether some OWS people spout off ignorance.
-Care less whether some Ron Paul supporters threw snowballs at Hannity.

The list goes on and on. All these petty incidents are really nothing when compared to the larger injustices at work here. These incidents are used by the media to marginalize all revolt against the status quo. Am I really so "leftist" for pointing all of this out?

[AuH20]

I hate walking into firestorm threads that already have thirteen pages of discussion on them, because I don't think anyone is going to bother reading lengthy posts after the main issues seem to have been endlessly debated, but I'll take a stab at it anyway.

First of all, both sides of the argument can be accused of cherry-picking videos to suit their particular agenda. I think it happened with the Tea Party a while back on this forum, when discussions about the Tea Party were popular, but the exact same thing is happening now with the anti-OWS fervor. Those of you saying the OWS folks are "staunchly anti-liberty", I say you cannot be more wrong. Many of these people have identified the symptom of income inequality, which is the fact that Wall Street is the right arm of the corporatocracy that currently exists in this country. Again, if you're on this forum, you know that the Federal Reserve is also a large part of it, too. Any centralized system of control in this country has inevitably contributed to income disparity, especially the context in which it exists today, because it has steadily gained power over the last hundred years or so. This is all pretty common knowledge, I think.

Some of you have said that all OWS does is "blame the rich". Well, when you have this extent of distortion and disparity, what else are you supposed to do? The mega-rich people in this country usually become that way because they are successful at using the same regulations that supposedly curb their companies' growth to crowd out competition. I don't think these protesters are against free-market ideals so much as they are against the opposite of those ideals, which is monopoly. I think the real dichotomy here is between competition and monopoly, not capitalism or state socialism. Capitalism and state socialism are really two sides of the same coin. I personally don't understand the defense of capitalism that is contained implicitly within some of the posts here opposing OWS. Of course, not everyone at the OWS protests understands the point I'm trying to make here.

OWS as I see it is a rally against the entrenched system, and yes, that unfortunately includes Wall Street. Our society has evolved in technology to the point where many of the "services" that Wall Street provides (really to aid the increasing centralization and accumulation of wealth to the top so-called "1 percent") could easily be filled by other means. The history of Wall Street is closely intertwined with the history of crony capitalism in the United States, something which many people here rail against. Are we really to believe that if we just let Wall Street continue in its current incarnation, which has been heavily backed by the crony capitalists we have all come to know and love, assuming no more counterproductive regulations are added, that the problems will just go away? Anyone who points this out is automatically an apologist for state socialism? I seriously doubt this. We need to be careful about labeling people.

As for the supposed lack of respect for private property shown by the OWS protesters, sure, I agree that vandalism is bad because it is counterproductive and easily seen as immature; plus, targeting average Joes and vandalizing their cars is not the way to go. But if you're talking about their tendency to camp in vacant property supposedly owned by banks, I really don't see a problem with that. If bank-owned property sits vacant while people are cold and hungry, I don't see anything particularly just about that. It also remains to be seen how much property in the US is actually wholly private anymore, either, considering property is nowadays inextricably linked with the state and all its associated systems of privilege. Again, that is not meant to justify vandalism; I am just trying to challenge peoples' notions of private property. It's not as simple as everyone makes it out to be. A few reforms and "getting the government out of everything" is not going to solve the inequalities inherent within the system.

In the context of this larger argument, I couldn't:
-Care less whether some people at Tea Party rallies are racist.
-Care less whether some OWS people spout off ignorance.
-Care less whether some Ron Paul supporters threw snowballs at Hannity.

The list goes on and on. All these petty incidents are really nothing when compared to the larger injustices at work here. These incidents are used by the media to marginalize all revolt against the status quo. Am I really so "leftist" for pointing all of this out?

The status quo meaning more and more government solutions. That's what I see when I listen to OWS. It's like battered spouse syndrome. They keep going back to the abuser.

[dannno]

When are we going to stop being the MSNBC to OWS that they were to the Tea Party?

:rolleyes:

[Ekrub]

Eh. From what I've observed, if a person is a former/reformed neocon, they are more likely to support the Tea Party and forgive some of the co-option because they believe they can communicate with and relate better to them. If a person is a former democrat/neoliberal, they are more likely to support OWS because they believe, in the same vein, that there is an opportunity there to gain support.

And many people have family/friends who are involved, which makes it personal. Except for Dannno--who probably just sees OWS as an opportunity to possibly score some tail and weed--not very likely at a Tea Party. :p

I see myself doing similar things from time to time, and realize that part of me had some formative years in the liberal camp, even though I was raised conservative. Personally, I think that some people would work well at OWS, but not the Tea Party or vice-versa. We're diverse, and the natural hostility that arises from these differences is something we should get over.

I just wouldn't get too invested in either of these groups. OWS has links to questionable entities, and we've already seen how the tea party (started by Ron Paul) was co-opted. OWS will be bad news if it isn't already.

The Ron Paul Revolution is the only grassroots movement that I am interested in defending/promoting.

[LibertyEagle]

Rothbardian Girl, but you see, the problem was never income disparity, or that some are rich and some are not. We were never guaranteed equal outcome. We were to have an equal opportunity to come up with great ideas, work our butts off and succeed from our own merits. The great thing about capitalism was that none of us were forced to work for a certain corporation, or actually, work as an employee at all. If we thought we had a great idea, we could start our own business. Sadly, our government has added so much red tape that doing so is very difficult these days.

What troubles me the most is that the OWS people are camped out on Wall Street, rather than camped out around our government. Because THAT is the source of the trouble.

Being angry at those who have more than they do is ignorant.

[AuH20]

This is getting borderline comical. So now the Department of Ed's budget is too small? OWS is a freaking joke, especially in NYC!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/07/occupy-wall-street-department-of-education_n_1080875.html


Another student described how the DOE's budget cuts stripped his Bronx school of resources such as textbooks, librarians and school aides -- and then added it to the city's list of failing schools.

"I'm tired of being told that my school is failing. It is the Department of Education that has failed to give my students what they need to succeed," a teacher yelled. "If our banks fail, they get bailouts. If our schools fail, they get closed, or charter co-locations ... It is time that we hold the one percent accountable."



Wah wah. Life isn't fair. Your "special interest" education monopoly was eclipsed by the bankers. Oh the irony.

[ryanmkeisling]

You don't give us free food, we'll destroy your lifestyle you filthy capitalist food cart vendors!!!

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/socal-street-cart-vendors-hurting-after-occupy-group-splatters-blood-urine/

But I know, we shouldn't condemn splattering blood and urine on a hapless food cart vendor's livelihood. I mean these protesters really just are misunderstood!

I agree this is wrong.

[NewRightLibertarian]

That is what it is about. You are just too blind and stupid to see past the media bullshit.

No, it's not. You're just projecting your own beliefs onto the movement

[Cowlesy]

You don't give us free food, we'll destroy your lifestyle you filthy capitalist food cart vendors!!!

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/07/socal-street-cart-vendors-hurting-after-occupy-group-splatters-blood-urine/

But I know, we shouldn't condemn splattering blood and urine on a hapless food cart vendor's livelihood. I mean these protesters really just are misunderstood!


:rolleyes:

You're right. They're just misunderstood. I should be more understanding of their acts.

[AuH20]

No, it's not. You're just projecting your own beliefs onto the movement

Pcomar, like others, has been patiently waiting for this enormous grassroots rebellion and we've been saddled with this joke.

[klamath]

If OWS turns into the violent revolution some on here wish, they might find out how scary a mob determined threshold for the one percent is. Already they determine that a luxury car is evidence enough. Next it will the guy with two chickens instead of one.

[Rothbardian Girl]

Rothbardian Girl, but you see, the problem was never income disparity, or that some are rich and some are not. We were never guaranteed equal outcome. We were to have an equal opportunity to come up with great ideas, work our butts off and succeed from our own merits. The great thing about capitalism was that none of us were forced to work for a certain corporation, or actually, work as an employee at all. If we thought we had a great idea, we could start our own business. Sadly, our government has added so much red tape that doing so is very difficult these days.

What troubles me the most is that the OWS people are camped out on Wall Street, rather than camped out around our government. Because THAT is the source of the trouble.

Being angry at those who have more than they do is ignorant.

See, but the characteristic of the system we currently live in does not offer many examples of equal opportunity. It is my contention that equal opportunity will naturally lead to greater equality in income. "Working your butt off" does not really get you much in the current environment, due to high inflation (from the Fed, of course) and the current dominance of state-privileged corporations, who can afford to hire labor at an artificially cheap price, and who can afford to have their goods manufactured by laborers from other countries who are themselves oppressed by the government systems they live under. It's no accident that sweatshop labor comes from some of the most tyrannical, authoritarian countries in the world. So, I think we are oftentimes forced to work for a certain corporation, and if it's not Walmart, it might be Target, which is a similar big-box model. Both of these examples (and many more) have contributed to the decline of American culture and work ethic. I mean, if I worked at a large grocery store chain or department store and witnessed boxes and boxes of perfectly good items being thrown out, and the general attitudes of people who frequented these stores, what else might I be forced to conclude? I think, in short, that the actually existing system of capitalism has contributed a lot to what people here identify as declining morals. I'm not trying to be overly sentimental and full of warm fuzzies for mom-and-pop shops, but I truly believe that kind of business model is what ultimately paves the way for success. I think the OWS people would agree with me, but this is the kind of stuff that needs to be preached, not the "us vs. them" mentality and the "1% vs. the 99%" slogan. Even some of us are guilty of encouraging this kind of divisiveness within the movement.

Not to mention the fact that when people work at large chains like Walmart (the quintessential example), they are forced to toil in a highly formal, bureaucratized structure for low wages. I think with a more personalized approach to doing business, Walmart would be forced to treat its employees fairly and actually pay them a living wage, while at the same time managing to manufacture in America again, if people wanted that kind of output. Now, all of this would have to occur in a context of no regulation whatsoever, so I am not saying that this needs to happen within the current environment, since this would only lead to more problems.

I agree with you that people who have great ideas need to be able to start businesses, and that currently our environment does not allow us to do that. But that ideal is not incompatible to the general sense of income equality, IMO. The income disparity I'm most concerned about, I think, is with workers within the same company.

[dannno]

You're right. They're just misunderstood. I should be more understanding of their acts.

That is NOT what I said at all. Why is it such a difficult concept to understand? You are taking 5 people throwing snowballs or getting mad at McDonalds for not giving them free food when there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of people on the street RIGHT NOW and hundreds of thousands if not millions of self-identified protesters and probably tens of millions of supporters. You are doing EXACTLY what MSNBC did to both Ron Paul supporters and the Tea Party, it's fucking ridiculous.

I really don't understand why I'm seeing all this here like this, and THIS forum of all places.

I mean, sure, go ahead and point out what they are doing and say those individuals are wrong, if you're going to participate in OWS, this should not be encouraged.. it's completely another thing to collectivize the entire group like what is going on here. It's just plain hypocritical, really.

[dannno]

I know what you're doing, you're trying to pretend that i am advocating violence. You did it a long time ago in this thread and now I'm going to address it.

Thousands of people occupying a public street is not violent.


If OWS turns into the violent revolution some on here wish, they might find out how scary a mob determined threshold for the one percent is. Already they determine that a luxury car is evidence enough. Next it will the guy with two chickens instead of one.

Why are you making such irresponsible statements?

You guys are sloppier than MSNBC.. Remember the black guy who showed up to a town hall meeting with a rifle, MSNBC only showed him from the waist down and insinuated the guy might be racist against black people?

This is what you people are acting like. Yes, "you people" :p

[Ekrub]

That is NOT what I said at all. Why is it such a difficult concept to understand? You are taking 5 people throwing snowballs or getting mad at McDonalds for not giving them free food when there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of people on the street RIGHT NOW and hundreds of thousands if not millions of self-identified protesters and probably tens of millions of supporters. You are doing EXACTLY what MSNBC did to both Ron Paul supporters and the Tea Party, it's fucking ridiculous.

I really don't understand why I'm seeing all this here like this, and THIS forum of all places.

I mean, sure, go ahead and point out what they are doing and say those individuals are wrong, if you're going to participate in OWS, this should not be encouraged.. it's completely another thing to collectivize the entire group like what is going on here. It's just plain hypocritical, really.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?328727-L.A.-occupiers-throw-blood-urine-at-street-vendor-for-failing-to-give-out-free-food

OP posted a link, gave no opinion. You accused him of being the "MSNBC to OWS that they were to the Tea Party."

Quite frankly, putting faith in this movement is as hopeless putting faith in the modern day Rubio/Palin Tea Party. You and pcosmar seem to be clinging to some hope that OWS is going to be a revolution against the banks that will lead to more liberty. However, all the rhetoric coming out of OWS seems to be "more government, more regulation, more benefits." Honestly, your first hand accounts of OWS where you saw 50 Ron Paul supporters and everyone except 3 or 4 people were receptive to your message seem like a lot of BS. All of the RP people (Schiff, Kokesh, among others) seem to run into people at OWS that are not receptive to the message of liberty at all. I take Kokesh's and Shiff's video evidence far more serious than your testimonial.

[LibertyEagle]

See, but the characteristic of the system we currently live in does not offer many examples of equal opportunity. It is my contention that equal opportunity will naturally lead to greater equality in income. "Working your butt off" does not really get you much in the current environment, due to high inflation (from the Fed, of course) and the current dominance of state-privileged corporations, who can afford to hire labor at an artificially cheap price, and who can afford to have their goods manufactured by laborers from other countries who are themselves oppressed by the government systems they live under. It's no accident that sweatshop labor comes from some of the most tyrannical, authoritarian countries in the world. So, I think we are oftentimes forced to work for a certain corporation, and if it's not Walmart, it might be Target, which is a similar big-box model. Both of these examples (and many more) have contributed to the decline of American culture and work ethic. I mean, if I worked at a large grocery store chain or department store and witnessed boxes and boxes of perfectly good items being thrown out, and the general attitudes of people who frequented these stores, what else might I be forced to conclude? I think, in short, that the actually existing system of capitalism has contributed a lot to what people here identify as declining morals. I'm not trying to be overly sentimental and full of warm fuzzies for mom-and-pop shops, but I truly believe that kind of business model is what ultimately paves the way for success. I think the OWS people would agree with me, but this is the kind of stuff that needs to be preached, not the "us vs. them" mentality and the "1% vs. the 99%" slogan. Even some of us are guilty of encouraging this kind of divisiveness within the movement.
We still have the opportunity to choose where we work. If you do not like the business practices of a certain company, do not work for them.


Not to mention the fact that when people work at large chains like Walmart (the quintessential example), they are forced to toil in a highly formal, bureaucratized structure for low wages. I think with a more personalized approach to doing business, Walmart would be forced to treat its employees fairly and actually pay them a living wage, while at the same time managing to manufacture in America again, if people wanted that kind of output. Now, all of this would have to occur in a context of no regulation whatsoever, so I am not saying that this needs to happen within the current environment, since this would only lead to more problems.
No one forces them to do anything. They CHOSE to work at Walmart. If they don't like it, they should quit and find a job elsewhere.

Personally, I hate working for large corporations. I have always chosen to work for small-medium sized relatively new software companies.


I agree with you that people who have great ideas need to be able to start businesses, and that currently our environment does not allow us to do that.
I didn't say we couldn't. I said it was getting harder, or something like that.


But that ideal is not incompatible to the general sense of income equality, IMO. The income disparity I'm most concerned about, I think, is with workers within the same company.
Where did you get the idea that you were guaranteed "income equality"? People get paid different salaries for all kinds of reasons. If you don't think you are being paid enough, make yourself invaluable and ask for a raise, or quit and go work elsewhere.

My experience has been that there is far less bullshit you have to deal with in a smaller company. They don't have time for it and they also don't have room for the political freeloaders. But, there is a tradeoff too. In these companies, you frequently have to work longer hours, will never get a pension and there is always the chance that the company might get bought out. The tradeoff was always worth it to me. Others may feel differently.

This idea that a company owes us a certain salary is nonsense. They are not our parents. If we don't like 'em, disown 'em.

[Cowlesy]

"NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!" while using her own children to block a door. Even one of the reasonable OWS protesters at the end of the video agrees it's messed up.

Psychos.

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/occupydc-protesters-use-kids-blockade-door-during-violent-scuffle

[NewRightLibertarian]

"NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE!" while using her own children to block a door. Even one of the reasonable OWS protesters at the end of the video agrees it's messed up.

Psychos.

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/occupydc-protesters-use-kids-blockade-door-during-violent-scuffle

You're just being like MSNBC for talking about their behavior. Put your head in the sand. They're doing something and therefore it must be good :rolleyes:

[Endgame]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?328727-L.A.-occupiers-throw-blood-urine-at-street-vendor-for-failing-to-give-out-free-food

OP posted a link, gave no opinion. You accused him of being the "MSNBC to OWS that they were to the Tea Party."

Quite frankly, putting faith in this movement is as hopeless putting faith in the modern day Rubio/Palin Tea Party. You and pcosmar seem to be clinging to some hope that OWS is going to be a revolution against the banks that will lead to more liberty. However, all the rhetoric coming out of OWS seems to be "more government, more regulation, more benefits." Honestly, your first hand accounts of OWS where you saw 50 Ron Paul supporters and everyone except 3 or 4 people were receptive to your message seem like a lot of BS. All of the RP people (Schiff, Kokesh, among others) seem to run into people at OWS that are not receptive to the message of liberty at all. I take Kokesh's and Shiff's video evidence far more serious than your testimonial.

Apples to oranges. We aren't media personalities with cameramen and microphones engaging people in an inherently confrontational manner. I sure as fuck don't show up in a business suit waving a sign that says "I am the 1$". If people aren't receptive, it's mostly likely you aren't communicating the right way.

People are pissed, this movement is happening. Maybe it will be co-opted by the establishment "left" and become Obama's reelection campaign. Maybe it will lead to violent communist revolution and dictatorship! Shutting ourselves off from it makes that a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[pcosmar]

People are pissed, this movement is happening. Maybe it will be co-opted by the establishment "left" and become Obama's reelection campaign. Maybe it will lead to violent communist revolution and dictatorship! Shutting ourselves off from it makes that a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If it is Obama's attempt at reelection he is failing miserably.
The movement is REJECTING both parties as corrupt to the core and calling for a third Party.

As far as it becoming a Marxist revolution,, Those voices are there and that could end up being the direction it goes without input from saner voices.

Regardless,, It is happening. Just as it is all over the world. The same Money Masters are destroying economies everywhere.
It is deliberate. Violence will ensue. What direction that violence will take is up for grabs.

Make NO Mistake. It is a reality. Ron Paul was warning about it long ago. Others have seen it coming as well.
There are thousands in the streets,, that number will grow.

[jmdrake]

Jmdrake, it is your perfect right to go associate with whomever you would like. I personally don't care if you think you can get some votes from them. The point is, we shouldn't endorse their protest or act like we're a part of it.

I never endorsed their protest or acted like we were a part of it. I posted a video that you apparently were too lazy or too busy trying to lecture other people to watch where Ron Paul said there was common ground. Enough said.

[amy31416]

You're right. They're just misunderstood. I should be more understanding of their acts.

That is some seriously assholish behavior, these food cart vendors gave them free food at first when they could, helped them out. And what do they get in return? Worse than a slap in the face.

They are actually acting as bad as wild animals here, baboons come to mind.

[dannno]

You're just being like MSNBC for talking about their behavior. Put your head in the sand. They're doing something and therefore it must be good :rolleyes:

Can you please, PLEASE tell me what you DON'T comprehend about what I've been saying for the 130th time??

I am not saying the behavior of individuals is "ok", nobody is.. but when MSNBC paraded around the racists from the Tea Party on their station, we all called them out because we realized that most of the people are not racists, and just because a racist is at a Tea Party event and others don't leave doesn't make them racist. That doesn't mean because we called them out that we support racism, does it??

How are you not doing the EXACT same thing by pointing out individual's behavior which YOU find offensive and applying it to a group of millions of people??

[Endgame]

If it is Obama's attempt at reelection he is failing miserably.
The movement is REJECTING both parties as corrupt to the core and calling for a third Party.

As far as it becoming a Marxist revolution,, Those voices are there and that could end up being the direction it goes without input from saner voices.

Regardless,, It is happening. Just as it is all over the world. The same Money Masters are destroying economies everywhere.
It is deliberate. Violence will ensue. What direction that violence will take is up for grabs.

Make NO Mistake. It is a reality. Ron Paul was warning about it long ago. Others have seen it coming as well.
There are thousands in the streets,, that number will grow.

I think this is the beginning of the civil unrest most of us have been expecting.

[dannno]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?328727-L.A.-occupiers-throw-blood-urine-at-street-vendor-for-failing-to-give-out-free-food

OP posted a link, gave no opinion. You accused him of being the "MSNBC to OWS that they were to the Tea Party."

Quite frankly, putting faith in this movement is as hopeless putting faith in the modern day Rubio/Palin Tea Party. You and pcosmar seem to be clinging to some hope that OWS is going to be a revolution against the banks that will lead to more liberty. However, all the rhetoric coming out of OWS seems to be "more government, more regulation, more benefits." Honestly, your first hand accounts of OWS where you saw 50 Ron Paul supporters and everyone except 3 or 4 people were receptive to your message seem like a lot of BS. All of the RP people (Schiff, Kokesh, among others) seem to run into people at OWS that are not receptive to the message of liberty at all. I take Kokesh's and Shiff's video evidence far more serious than your testimonial.

First of all, I never said I saw 50 RP supporters at any OWS protest.. I did say that there was a close knit group of about 20 anarchists and some other philosophical anarchists who I've met at these things, some of whom actually read Rothbard and shit. Also saw some End the Fed signs. I went up to San Francisco and saw many End the Fed signs, some Ron Paul supporters and a very diverse group of people who were respectful of others.

Me going down to an OWS protest feels like going down to hangout with a bunch of my friends. In fact, a whole bunch of them were already my friends to begin with, and I've met many new people who are really cool. So insulting everybody in OWS would be like me insulting your family or something. They are very anti-establishment and care more about ending police brutality and instating our constitutional right to speech, movement and being able to exist in public spaces than they do about anything else because that is how they will be able to grow the movement and allow it to continue in the short term. Secondarily, they are concerned about the corporations and banks, but they all know how corrupt they are and that they are in bed with govt.

[klamath]

Wow I sure don't see corporations (Groups of people) Bankers, more groups of people, getting the individual person treatment. They are quite happily slameed in a collectivist manner. I have seen them slammed without regard, from loan officers on up. It doesn't even matter that a lot of banks didn't even want TARP but were forced into it but the government so the real failing banks could not be identified. Yeaw the people on here screaming "collectivist" are a joke.

[Anti Federalist]

Did UWDude have a meltdown?

[PaulConventionWV]

Bullshit. The founding fathers advocated protest and revolution.
That was the purpose of the second amendment.


It has gone on too long and too few have paid the price.

I said "open protests" not just protests. There is a difference.

[PaulConventionWV]

I never endorsed their protest or acted like we were a part of it. I posted a video that you apparently were too lazy or too busy trying to lecture other people to watch where Ron Paul said there was common ground. Enough said.

Common ground doesn't mean anything. Common ground on what? You people define these catch phrases and words so vaguely that you can twist them to mean just about anything. In fact, you have to do that in order to make OWS seem even remotely related to the liberty movement.

I hope this whole protest just dies out. Pcosmar, your little fantasy is false and will not come true. It's not the media painting them this way, it's the market. 48% of OWS would have Obama re-elected. That is a very large percentage. Yet, you seem to think there is some unifying message in the whole movement of a "third party." Prove it.

[jct74]

Michelle Fields was on Fox News talking with Eric Bolling about her ordeal at Occupy DC.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7xObd-Nu2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7xObd-Nu2c


Here is more of her talking about her experience:
http://theothermccain.com/2011/11/05/f-michelle-fields-interview-with-reporter-harassed-at-occupy-dc-protest/
http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/05/thedc-interview-michelle-fields-on-the-the-threatening-occupy-dc-mob/

[KAYA]

I know I'm a little late, but here ya go:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbnEy_U9pYk

Did you watch the video? This was a Rand Paul campaign event not a tea-party event. Did you see how it was one guy who stomped his foot on this agitator while the other guy objected and said NO, NO, NO!? And did you hear how multiple people in that video called for the cops to come and get this person in the wig? What let up to that? Why did they feel a need to call the cops on this individual with the wig? Why was this individual wearing a wig? What was he/she up to?

The OWS crowd did not go after agitators they went after innocent bystanders and the OWS crowd was encouraging the unruly actions unlike in this video, where the violent action was immediately condemned on the spot. And again this was not a tea-party protest and is not comparable for the reasons I explained.

[LibertyEagle]

One thing that I HOPE this shows, once and for all, is that the behavior of each and every person, while you are wearing or carrying anything that attaches you to Ron Paul, reflects on the ENTIRE movement and Ron Paul, himself.

With liberty, comes responsibility. That means that while you can go out and do whatever you want in the name of Ron Paul, the rest of us have every right to insist that you do no harm to Ron Paul or the movement. In short, if you want to act like an idiot, make sure that you do not do it at a Ron Paul event and that you have nothing on you or your vehicle that will in any way, associate you with Ron Paul.

[Miss Annie]

With liberty, comes responsibility.

This! This almost sums up Ron Paul! You can't have one without the other! If one is sacrificed, the other is a gonner!

[jmdrake]

Common ground doesn't mean anything. Common ground on what?

Common ground that the taxpayers bailing out investment gambling isn't a good idea. Common ground the Tim Geitner and Ben Bernanke are criminals and should be treated as such. Really you're being willfully ignorant. I've posted the video where Ron Paul talks about common ground with OWS and you have yet to even respond to it. You keep pretending it doesn't exist.

[klamath]

This! This almost sums up Ron Paul! You can't have one without the other! If one is sacrificed, the other is a gonner!
Actually it is porportional. For every bit of responsibility you give for your life to another person it the exact amount of freedom lost. It applies to everything in your life. If you don't build your own car you give up the freedom to have a car exactly like you want it. If someone else grows your food you give up the right to have it grown in exactly the way you want it and so on.

[Miss Annie]

Actually it is porportional. For every bit of responsibility you give for your life to another person it the exact amount of freedom lost. It applies to everything in your life. If you don't build your own car you give up the freedom to have a car exactly like you want it. If someone else grows your food you give up the right to have it grown in exactly the way you want it and so on.

Agreed! I think most of us can find common ground with the injustice that the protesters are protesting. I always tried to teach my kids that when they want to communicate their feelings on something, they need to do so in a respectful and unoffensive manner. The main reason being that when you become disrespectful and offensive, you simply lose your audience. This is what has happened with OWS. Yes, I do realize that it is not the whole of the protesters that are becoming vile, but those are the ones that need to then disengage from the protest and use another venue UNTIL this one dies.

[LibertyEagle]

Actually it is porportional. For every bit of responsibility you give for your life to another person it the exact amount of freedom lost. It applies to everything in your life. If you don't build your own car you give up the freedom to have a car exactly like you want it. If someone else grows your food you give up the right to have it grown in exactly the way you want it and so on.

No. I was talking about being responsible for our chosen actions.

[klamath]

No. I was talking about being responsible for our chosen actions. I agree and understand. I was just expanding on the Responsibility/freedom tie.

[KAYA]

Common ground that the taxpayers bailing out investment gambling isn't a good idea. Common ground the Tim Geitner and Ben Bernanke are criminals and should be treated as such. Really you're being willfully ignorant. I've posted the video where Ron Paul talks about common ground with OWS and you have yet to even respond to it. You keep pretending it doesn't exist.

If this is true, why are there so many Obama supporters at these occupy protest and why were they not complaining from the start of Obama's administration?

[low preference guy]

If this is true, why are there so many Obama supporters at these occupy protest and why were they not complaining from the start of Obama's administration?

Occupy Wall Street is 2011's version of "Hope and Change".

[NewRightLibertarian]

If this is true, why are there so many Obama supporters at these occupy protest and why were they not complaining from the start of Obama's administration?

Because re-election is right around the corner and as Michael Moore said this is Obama's last chance at getting another term.

[jmdrake]

If this is true, why are there so many Obama supporters at these occupy protest and why were they not complaining from the start of Obama's administration?

Let's see. Only 48% of the OWS support Obama's re-election. I bet there were more McCain supporters among the tea party. At the events I went to most still supported George W. Bush. And how about this tea party supporter that didn't realize that Sarah Palin supported the bailout?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjovbveUgtc

There are a lot of people in the tea party and in OWS that are too ignorant of the facts to realize the personalities they support were actually part of the problem they are against. Look at all of Herman Cain's tea party support and he was a federal reserve governor and for the bailout! Folks on both sides are being manipulated.

[pcosmar]

People still flaunting ignorance.

Yeah we sure wouldn't want to join with these folks.

http://www.redlistradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/boothall.jpg

[NewRightLibertarian]

People still flaunting ignorance.

Yeah we sure wouldn't want to join with these folks.

http://www.redlistradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/boothall.jpg

LOL, like this small minority of Constitutional-minded protesters won't be purged out of the movement as it gets more ugly. Gimme a break.

[pcosmar]

LOL, like this small minority of Constitutional-minded protesters won't be purged out of the movement as it gets more ugly. Gimme a break.

Fuck you man. These are some of the people that started this movement. There are many more like them.

You are just perpetuating the Corporate Media spin, and ignoring the roots of this movement.

It was not started by Adbusters. and it started LONG before the Sept 17 date.

[dannno]

If this is true, why are there so many Obama supporters at these occupy protest and why were they not complaining from the start of Obama's administration?


Occupy Wall Street is 2011's version of "Hope and Change".

I guarantee if you actually go to these events there is a very small chance you will find many Obama supporters at all. You can dig up anything on youtube.

[jmdrake]

I guarantee if you actually go to these events there is a very small chance you will find many Obama supporters at all. You can dig up anything on youtube.

Apparently some people think Obama controls a movement that only 48% supports him. :rolleyes:

[pcosmar]

Apparently some people think Obama controls a movement that only 48% supports him. :rolleyes:

I believe that number to be inflated. The poll I saw had it at 25%. But it also reported 21% Ron Paul supporters and the remainder favoring a third party.

But polls are so easily manipulated,, I don't take them too seriously.

[NorfolkPCSolutions]

LOL!!

Are you really going to argue that there were not any racists at the Tea Party events?? You have to be fucking kidding me..

Look, do you know how many fucking HOURS I spent arguing with progressives that racists do NOT represent the Tea Party movement as a whole???

Now look what I'm doing, I'm having the SAME EXACT FUCKING CONVERSATION with people who are doing the SAME EXACT THING MSNBC was doing to the Tea Party!! You are taking isolated incidents and using them to define the entire movement!! Look in the mirror!

For the first time, someone has helped me make sense of the OWS movement. Thank you.

Even if you do look like Raveen, Ricky. :-)

[Endgame]

I believe that number to be inflated. The poll I saw had it at 25%. But it also reported 21% Ron Paul supporters and the remainder favoring a third party.

But polls are so easily manipulated,, I don't take them too seriously.

My occupy is in the heartland so it's a bit different from the coastal cities. The only people there that I talked to that would vote for Obama again even among the leftists were this seedy retired sociology professor there one Sunday to co-opt the movement and pretend it's the 60's again, and this crazy black lady who says she wanted Obama to be elected just to prove to her black friends that any president is going to be corrupt regardless of skin color (I suppose from her perspective that almost makes sense).

[Rothbardian Girl]

LOL, like this small minority of Constitutional-minded protesters won't be purged out of the movement as it gets more ugly. Gimme a break.
That's all you could come up with? You have got to be kidding me. I hope this illustrates the flaws in your arguments - that both sides can continue to pull pictures and videos out of their asses, but they still cannot generalize the movement as a whole.

[matt0611]

We can't even get the tea-party people to vote for Ron, what makes anyone think anything will come of trying to befriend anyone who belongs to this mob?

[Endgame]

That's all you could come up with? You have got to be kidding me. I hope this illustrates the flaws in your arguments - that both sides can continue to pull pictures and videos out of their asses, but they still cannot generalize the movement as a whole.

Totally. There's something called "morale" that is important for any group trying to get something done. "Waaah someday they'll decide they don't like us so we may as well just leave!" is not morale.

[Rothbardian Girl]

We can't even get the tea-party people to vote for Ron, what makes anyone think anything will come of trying to befriend anyone who belongs to this mob?
Because a good portion of the Tea Party hasn't woken up yet (at least some of them that are in vocal opposition to these OWS'ers) - they still think the government is fundamentally antagonistic to big businesses and Wall Street. Many of them still believe the interests represented by "Wall Street" will ultimately be beneficial to the middle class. At least these OWS people know that big business isn't always benign, although I will admit that some of them don't quite understand how big government and big business tie together. I think the more anarchist types (the more leftist ones) do make that connection, though. This is discussed at length in this article here (http://c4ss.org/content/8737). I've posted it before, and I hope you will read it to clarify any misconceptions you may have about the movement. Even if you don't agree with anarchism or whatever, you have to admit the author of this article makes excellent points.

That is why I think leftists are ultimately just as receptive to Ron's ideology, if not more so. Both sides of the spectrum will often agree with separate parts of Ron's ideology when presented to them... not as one giant whole that threatens to overwhelm their thinking. I know that is how I got into Ron Paul - I read bits and pieces of his positions on things.

[angelatc]

That's all you could come up with? You have got to be kidding me. I hope this illustrates the flaws in your arguments - that both sides can continue to pull pictures and videos out of their asses, but they still cannot generalize the movement as a whole.

That's where you're wrong. The whole movement is already generalized, and he's dead on: when it comes time to vote (or whatever it is they have in mind), your agenda won't ever be even a small part of theirs. For now, they're happy to smile and nod when you talk. But the left is evil, founded on a philosophy of intolerance, and they'll be rounding up the freedom fighters in their ranks.

Continue to play the useful idiot - nobody is going to talk you out of it - and know that when it's all over you can always come home. That is, as long as they allow this site to remain on the internet.

[Endgame]

That's where you're wrong. The whole movement is already generalized, and he's dead on: when it comes time to vote (or whatever it is they have in mind), your agenda won't ever be even a small part of theirs. For now, they're happy to smile and nod when you talk. But the left is evil, founded on a philosophy of intolerance, and they'll be rounding up the freedom fighters in their ranks.

Continue to play the useful idiot - nobody is going to talk you out of it - and know that when it's all over you can always come home. That is, as long as they allow this site to remain on the internet.

Get the fuck out of Michigan. I'd be saying this kind of miserable shit if I still lived in Ohio.

[angelatc]

I guarantee if you actually go to these events there is a very small chance you will find many Obama supporters at all.

My local occupy is in Detroit. I guarantee that if I go to one of these events there is a very small chance I won't get beat and mugged by all those non-Obama supporters you keep talking about.

[angelatc]

Get the fuck out of Michigan. I'd be saying this kind of miserable shit if I still lived in Ohio.

Oh now you're in the big city, and you see things more clearly now? This is the heartland, jackass.

[angelatc]

LOL, like this small minority of Constitutional-minded protesters won't be purged out of the movement as it gets more ugly. Gimme a break.

And the fact that those people are associated with #OWS will taint their names forever.

This is where the Revolution dies, apparently. Half of us honestly believe that #OWS are the change we've been looking for, and the rest of us are so repulsed at the complete idiocracy that we are practically speechless.

[Rothbardian Girl]

That's where you're wrong. The whole movement is already generalized, and he's dead on: when it comes time to vote (or whatever it is they have in mind), your agenda won't ever be even a small part of theirs. For now, they're happy to smile and nod when you talk. But the left is evil, founded on a philosophy of intolerance, and they'll be rounding up the freedom fighters in their ranks.

Continue to play the useful idiot - nobody is going to talk you out of it - and know that when it's all over you can always come home. That is, as long as they allow this site to remain on the internet.

I disagree that the movement is already generalized. That is the popular media narrative. But people's accounts of the protests have strongly differed. I personally didn't run into anything at Occupy Auburn that made me hopeful - this I will readily admit. But if dannno says that he managed to find a spirit of camaraderie and actually get through to people on issues, then I will trust his word. You may be right that some of the information for these "leftists" goes in one ear and out the other. But is that any excuse to not try at all? Is that any excuse to just give up and accept the popular narrative? I am sitting here with my heart practically pounding trying to figure out what the rationale behind the generalizations is.

I think Ron Paul's recent commentary on the millionaires and billionaires is further evidence that he himself thinks there is some fertile ground at some of these OWS protests. You can tell that he is trying to reach out to these protesters, as well as conservatives who are sick of the bailouts, through his comments. Most liberals don't understand that Ron Paul is anti-corporatism, but this new evidence where he flat-out states his views is very convicing IMHO.

[Endgame]

Oh now you're in the big city, and you see things more clearly now? This is the heartland, jackass.

Oklahoma City


-edited

[pcosmar]

And the fact that those people are associated with #OWS will taint their names forever.

This is where the Revolution dies, apparently. Half of us honestly believe that #OWS are the change we've been looking for, and the rest of us are so repulsed at the complete idiocracy that we are practically speechless.

You don't even have the slightest idea where this movement started or who started it.

I really don't know if that is the inability to read, the MSMs brainwashing or that your head is too far up the GOPs ass.

It is not likely to go away and shows every sign of growing,,, the direction it takes is still up for grabs.

[gregb]

You don't even have the slightest idea where this movement started or who started it.

I really don't know if that is the inability to read, the MSMs brainwashing or that your head is too far up the GOPs ass.

It is not likely to go away and shows every sign of growing,,, the direction it takes is still up for grabs.

Thanks for your efforts, and Danno and others too. I remember in this thread -

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?285084-Drudge-ANARCHY-IN-THE-UK/page2&highlight=uncut

- where I couldn't even get a conversation going about tactics, etc because the same (sort of) people that argue with you in this thread are too interested in running others down and not interested in exploration of ideas or examination of tactics, circumstances, etc. Had they actually looked at what was happening in Europe they might have been prepared for OWS and maybe we could have had some real influence on them, or at least more than we do.

I guess only some of us get the "trade with them" thing that Ron always advocates, the others really do seem isolationist don't they. I wonder why none of the "those people are all evil socialists" posters bother to look at the videos where Ron says that OWS has a point, etc - probably not the "brainwashing", nor the "inability to read" and I'm not sure about the "head is too far up the GOPs ass" either, although I think it the most likely of your choices.

I'm going to say that they are just a little bit still asleep, we can't all wake up at the same time, they seem unable to grasp that people are worth saving, that Jesus spent most of his time amongst those who were not of his mindset. So, I think that all in all they don't want Ron to win, they aren't Christian, and that they are definitely not awake.

Thanks again, I appreciate your efforts and patience with these people (Pcosmar, Danno, et al).

[low preference guy]

Oklahoma City, you loopy cunt.

I don't think angelatc was disrespectful or called you names.

[angelatc]

Thanks for your efforts, and Danno and others too. I remember in this thread -

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?285084-Drudge-ANARCHY-IN-THE-UK/page2&highlight=uncut

- where I couldn't even get a conversation going about tactics, etc because the same (sort of) people that argue with you in this thread are too interested in running others down and not interested in exploration of ideas or examination of tactics, circumstances, etc. Had they actually looked at what was happening in Europe they might have been prepared for OWS and maybe we could have had some real influence on them, or at least more than we do.

I guess only some of us get the "trade with them" thing that Ron always advocates, the others really do seem isolationist don't they. I wonder why none of the "those people are all evil socialists" posters bother to look at the videos where Ron says that OWS has a point, etc - probably not the "brainwashing", nor the "inability to read" and I'm not sure about the "head is too far up the GOPs ass" either, although I think it the most likely of your choices.

I'm going to say that they are just a little bit still asleep, we can't all wake up at the same time, they seem unable to grasp that people are worth saving, that Jesus spent most of his time amongst those who were not of his mindset. So, I think that all in all they don't want Ron to win, they aren't Christian, and that they are definitely not awake.

Thanks again, I appreciate your efforts and patience with these people (Pcosmar, Danno, et al).

None of us are Jesus. Not even close.

You seem to be pretty oblivious to the fact that the tactics that these people are using are out of Alinsky's playbook, not Ron's. And Ron told us to get involved with the GOP, a call that was met with, at best, apathy.

So unless you're an active member of your local GOP, don't you dare stand there and haughtily scold us for allegedly not wanting Ron to win. You're exemplifying the very reason that Libertarians never win elections.

We were making inroads into the right, and all of a sudden the fringe decides we all need to veer hard left. WTF? I think you're the one who is asleep, because the fact of the matter is that these people are the new truthers - the name #OWS will forever taint anything and everybody ever associated with it.

[angelatc]

I don't think angelatc was disrespectful or called you names. Actually I did. I called him a jackass. And I was right. Apparently he's decided to redefine heartland as anywhere he says it is.

[angelatc]

You don't even have the slightest idea where this movement started or who started it.

I really don't know if that is the inability to read, the MSMs brainwashing or that your head is too far up the GOPs ass.

It is not likely to go away and shows every sign of growing,,, the direction it takes is still up for grabs.

That's where you're wrong. The direction it is taking seems pretty clearly defined.

ANd might I remind you that getting involved with the GOP was what Ron Paul told me to do. So at least my head is where he wanted it, and simply not up my own ass.

(PS: still love ya, man....)

[angelatc]

I disagree that the movement is already generalized. That is the popular media narrative. But people's accounts of the protests have strongly differed. I personally didn't run into anything at Occupy Auburn that made me hopeful - this I will readily admit.

What you're missing (besides you admit that you saw with your own two eyes) is that the media narrative *is* the generalization. (And if MSNBC is definifing them as the progressive left, then we can assume they're probably mush worse. ) It's fine to pretend to know better than everybody...heck, maybe you do know better than everybody, but the people in the middle are seeing nothing but the radical side of this movement, and that's all they'll remember when it's all over.

THey did the same thing with the Viet Nam war protests. People who attended saw moms pushing baby carriages and businessmen on their lunch breaks. 40 years later, the public memory contains much different pictures of dirty hippies smoking grass and spitting on soldiers.

The worst possible thing we can do is to attach Ron Paul's movement to these people.

[klamath]

That's all you could come up with? You have got to be kidding me. I hope this illustrates the flaws in your arguments - that both sides can continue to pull pictures and videos out of their asses, but they still cannot generalize the movement as a whole.
Now isn't that what you are exactly doing with your post below?? How many times did you use the terms "big business and Wallstreet" in a generalization of both of those entities??


Because a good portion of the Tea Party hasn't woken up yet (at least some of them that are in vocal opposition to these OWS'ers) - they still think the government is fundamentally antagonistic to big businesses and Wall Street. Many of them still believe the interests represented by "Wall Street" will ultimately be beneficial to the middle class. At least these OWS people know that big business isn't always benign, although I will admit that some of them don't quite understand how big government and big business tie together. I think the more anarchist types (the more leftist ones) do make that connection, though. This is discussed at length in this article here. I've posted it before, and I hope you will read it to clarify any misconceptions you may have about the movement. Even if you don't agree with anarchism or whatever, you have to admit the author of this article makes excellent points.

[Brett85]

They are more intelligent than the Fox News watching members of the Tea Party, imo. At least in my personal experiences at OWS events.

That's funny. I'm a Fox News watching member of the tea party who supports Ron Paul and Constitutional government.

[pcosmar]

That's where you're wrong. The direction it is taking seems pretty clearly defined.



(PS: still love ya, man....)

I have a great appreciation for you, I would likely say the same face to face. Maybe harsher if I thought it was necessary.
Like a slap to snap someone out of hysteria.

I have posted both the origins and the infiltration of this movement,, but reading some of these posts is like watching Fox News.
So completely full of shit.

Yes there are undesirable elements showing up (Marxists/socialists), but that was not the origin and there are many who don't want to move it in that direction. or any further in that direction.
By staying away and ignoring or degrading it,, it will only guarantee that they will take full control. I don't want to see that happen.
The economy is NOT going to get better. The anger and protests will only grow.
We either educate and lead,,, or others will.

[klamath]

I believe that number to be inflated. The poll I saw had it at 25%. But it also reported 21% Ron Paul supporters and the remainder favoring a third party.

But polls are so easily manipulated,, I don't take them too seriously.
More like the 21% of the 5% that intended to vote republican.

[Czolgosz]

...
We either educate and lead,,, or others will.


This one sentence is so important. Unfortunately most intj's (:D) are not natural born leaders.

[Brett85]

I have a question.

If the majority of these people do in fact know what's up, why are they "occupying Wall Street" instead of the sources of the problem, the government and the Federal Reserve Banks?

Because they reject the free market and embrace socialism.

[low preference guy]

The economy is NOT going to get better. The anger and protests will only grow.
We either educate and lead,,, or others will.

The occupy movement is not the only one you can join. With all their flaws, the tea party is better. They at least clean up the place after they're done. The occupy movement is all about destruction.

[Brett85]

Great thread by Cowlesy. He deserves a lot of credit for exposing the violent, far left OWS movement.

[Endgame]

I don't think angelatc was disrespectful or called you names.

Liar.

[Endgame]

The occupy movement is not the only one you can join. With all their flaws, the tea party is better. They at least clean up the place after they're done. The occupy movement is all about destruction.

Join both.

[NewRightLibertarian]

And the fact that those people are associated with #OWS will taint their names forever.

This is where the Revolution dies, apparently. Half of us honestly believe that #OWS are the change we've been looking for, and the rest of us are so repulsed at the complete idiocracy that we are practically speechless.

People are just succeptible to giant mobs. The lure of feeling like they're apart of a big group trumps any type of reasoning ability.

I don't think this means the Ron Paul movement is dead. I'm sure these people on here who defend Occupy still defend Ron Paul. I just wish they wouldn't waste their time on this Obama-fueled chaos and nonsense.

[Brett85]

Join both.

Joining both would be like joining both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party.

[gregb]

Joining both would be like joining both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party.

No, joining both would be like Ron Paul working with Dennis Kucinich to achieve something that is righteous.

[pcosmar]

More like the 21% of the 5% that intended to vote republican.

Actually, no. It said 21% were Ron Paul supporters.
There were a number of different questions.


The poll by Fordham's Center for Electoral Politics and Democracy released last week found that the Occupy Wall Street movement is 68% white, 61% male and 28% unemployed. But most of the protestors are college graduates and 22% hold advanced degrees.

It also found that only 25% of the protestors identify with the Democratic Party, while 21% want Rep Ron Paul (R-Texas) to become the Republican Party nominee for president.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/occupy-wall-street-protesters-anti-obama-plan-skip-2012-election-fordham-poll-finds-article-1.970614#ixzz1dFLXRRNR

[angelatc]

No, joining both would be like Ron Paul working with Dennis Kucinich to achieve something that is righteous.

What have they achieved, exactly?

[angelatc]

Actually, no. It said 21% were Ron Paul supporters.
There were a number of different questions.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/occupy-wall-street-protesters-anti-obama-plan-skip-2012-election-fordham-poll-finds-article-1.970614#ixzz1dFLXRRNR

It did not say that 21% were Paul supporters. It said that 21% wanted Paul to be the GOP nominee. It also said,
"The group is very liberal and part of the Democratic base,” Panagopoulos (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Costas+Panagopoulos)
said. “But a surprising number don’t plan to vote."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/occupy-wall-street-protesters-anti-obama-plan-skip-2012-election-fordham-poll-finds-article-1.970614#ixzz1dFMA9XJT

[low preference guy]

21% want Rep Ron Paul (R-Texas) to become the Republican Party nominee for president.

Only a fraction of that 21% are supporters. I know Dems who want RP to win the nomination because they think he is the weakest Republican. Also, those numbers will drop as the news of vandalism and sexual abuse reach more people. Ron Paul is not against private property.

[low preference guy]

It also said,

Someone needs to have his head in his ass to not realize this is a leftist, democratic party leaning movement.

[Acala]

I visited the local OWS movement this morning. I was impressed with what I saw. Clean, well-organized, and most of the signs expressed ideas I could support. I left some quotations by Lord Acton on corruption, banks, and liberty, and threw some money in the pot.

I will be going back to talk with them. The OWS movement will either die out or grow. If it is going to grow, now is the time to educate and influence. Dismissing them in accordance with Fox news spin and the actions of a violent minority (almost certainly including deliberate false flag agents) is wasting an opportunity. Maybe it fails and they will go the road of socialism. But not even making an effort to educate and guide them is really letting your country down.

[pcosmar]

Joining both would be like joining both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party.

There is absolutely no discernible difference between the Republican and Democrat parties. They are both bought and corrupt.
They are both taking us down the wrong path.

Joining the original tea party and the original occupy movements would be more like the joining of the Transcontinental Railroad.

They are both on the same End The Fed track.

[gregb]

What have they achieved, exactly?

So you think that Ron shouldn't co-sponsor bills with Kucinich to at least try and get something done? I say that Ron has achieved a history of trying to do the right thing and not letting labels like "Democrat" get in the way, and that history is what allows us to push Ron as being different.

What do you find so hard about understanding Ron's ideas about influencing people by trading with them? Do you seriously think that Ron is an isolationist and not a non-interventionist? Do you not care what Ron says? Do you think he is an idiot for wanting some of the same things that the evil, socialist Democrats want too? Should we dismiss Ron's views on foreign policy because some Democrats think the same? Never mind ending the war on drugs because you have to work with socialists to do so?

Get a grip, unless you are purposely trying to set a bad example for demonstrative purposes.

[Brett85]

There is absolutely no discernible difference between the Republican and Democrat parties. They are both bought and corrupt.
They are both taking us down the wrong path.

Joining the original tea party and the original occupy movements would be more like the joining of the Transcontinental Railroad.

They are both on the same End The Fed track.

Well, maybe a more apt analogy would be to say that joining both the tea party movement and the OWS movement would be like joining both the Libertarian Party and the Communist Party.

[Acala]

Someone needs to have his head in his ass to not realize this is a leftist, democratic party leaning movement.

Where do you get your information?

Did you see the Obama puppet effigy paraded by the OWS in New York? Didn't make it on Fox News.

[NewRightLibertarian]

Where do you get your information?

Did you see the Obama puppet effigy paraded by the OWS in New York? Didn't make it on Fox News.

Do you think the movement has a coherent enough message not to be co-opted by Obama? I don't think so, and that's why Obama, the unions and Obama's propaganda squad at MoveOn are all triumphing this movement. Hell, even Bernanke 'understands' their concerns.

[Acala]

Well, maybe a more apt analogy would be to say that joining both the tea party movement and the OWS movement would be like joining both the Libertarian Party and the Communist Party.

False.

Areas of agreement:

End the wars
End corporate bailouts and welfare
End the military industrial complex
End the Fed
Reign in the banks
End the drug war
End the Patriot Act

I am sure there is more, but that right there is enough to justify working together

[Acala]

Do you think the movement has a coherent enough message not to be co-opted by Obama? I don't think so, and that's why Obama, the unions and Obama's propaganda squad at MoveOn are all triumphing this movement. Hell, even Bernanke 'understands' their concerns.

And you are helping by dismissing them. That is EXACTLY what the power eilite want you to do - buy into the media spin and the attempts by socialists to co-opt it.

Might I suggest that you go see for yourself? And try to help them by educating them. They already know something is wrong. They have woken up. Don't you want to try and get them moving in the right direction?

[jmdrake]

What have they achieved, exactly?

More than this > 200 post thread.

[heavenlyboy34]

Joining both would be like joining both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party.
Well, you may as well, considering their incestuous relationship. ;)

[low preference guy]

Areas of agreement:http://www.ronpaulforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3727798

Reign in the banks

Yes. How would they "Reign in the banks". By regulating them. Little they know it's the banking industry that writes the regulations.

You forgot important areas of disagreement:

1. Productive people are bad
2. Non-productive people have a right to the fruits of other people's labor
3. Respecting private property isn't important.

[Rothbardian Girl]

Because they reject the free market and embrace socialism.
What free market? I am sick of this term being bandied around on here like it actually exists. They wouldn't be rejecting the free market if they had a clue to how it actually would work if put into existence. Unfortunately, that free market would have little use for Wall Street as it exists now. I understand that the concept of Wall Street could serve a valuable function in such a system, but I highly, highly doubt it would look like it does today. Wall Street and crony capitalism have been intertwined for much of their respective histories in the United States. I don't think that's any accident.

Why the HELL do people continue to throw around left-right, left-right? It doesn't mean anything!

[pcosmar]

It did not say that 21% were Paul supporters. It said that 21% wanted Paul to be the GOP nominee. It also said,

And the first report of the movement described it as being diverse with many Ron Paul supporters.
Have you taken a little time to listen to these guys.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?328851-Red-List-Radio-Anyone-listen-to-them

They had been involved with OpESR, and have seen the same Co-opting that I have seen.
They have concerns about Adbusters,, as I have. Adbusters did not start this, but are trying to take it over.

The Unions and other groups have joined,, they did not start it.
It started with Amped Status and Anonymous. (anon has a lot of liberty minded folks, and some RP supporters)

[low preference guy]

And you are helping by dismissing them. That is EXACTLY what the power eilite want you to do - buy into the media spin and the attempts by socialists to co-opt it.

LOL. Let me remind you how the group is named. It's named "Occupy Wall Street". That right there tells you it is co-opted already. All the class warfare talk about the 99% tells you it is co-opted already. If they were named "occupy the white house" or "occupy the IRS" you might have a case.

[Acala]

LOL. Let me remind you how the group is named. It's named "Occupy Wall Street". That right there tells you it is co-opted already. All the class warfare talk about the 99% tells you it is co-opted already. If they were named "occupy the white house" or "occupy the IRS" you might have a case.

Wall Street is not the free market. It is a corrupt, fascist crime in progress.

People have a right to object to the way wealth is distributed in this country because it is not based on merit or performance. It is based on political clout, treachery, and violence.

But if we don't make an effort to educate them, the baby is going to go out with the bathwater.

[Acala]

Yes. How would they "Reign in the banks". By regulating them. Little they know it's the banking industry that writes the regulations.

You forgot important areas of disagreement:

1. Productive people are bad
2. Non-productive people have a right to the fruits of other people's labor
3. Respecting private property isn't important.

Upon what stream of information do you base this assertion?

[Cowlesy]

A friend on my facebook page supports OWS because he thinks all the white collar jerks making $80k+ a year are wanting him to make less money for working on roads. In his words, "It's their turn to pay instead of me." Another one remarked, "Hell yeah I can't wait for the class war."

People are itching to point the finger, and I will not join that. Conceivably, I think it's reasonably justified to point to DC and certain large commercial banks that requested bailout-or-die money.

But lately, I've been looking more inward and thinking, aren't we really to blame? We've let our culture be commercialized to the point everyone is trying to out-do the next guy having the Eddie Bauer edition Explorer, or the newest gizmo, or the extra bedroom on the house. I will certainly not denigrate the progress we've made in the ability to have more leisure time, but how do we spend that leisure time seems to have eroded our culture. The libertarian part of me thinks we have vastly more choice to which we can direct our behavior, but the conservative side of me laments the traditional bonds of our culture that seem to be eroding.

I just see the soul of OWS being further destruction and division, by no means any sort of restoration, of our national soul, if that makes any sense (to which I expect several replies of "none at all!").

[dannno]

Yes. How would they "Reign in the banks". By regulating them. Little they know it's the banking industry that writes the regulations.

You forgot important areas of disagreement:

1. Productive people are bad
2. Non-productive people have a right to the fruits of other people's labor
3. Respecting private property isn't important.

I think most OWS folks I would know would disagree with this post. They would be against the banking industry writing the banking regulations because that would be corruption, which they are clearly against.

They don't think productive people are bad, they see high level executives and others as a leech off of the productivity of businesses because they get special incentives from government. They don't see the high level executives who get paid a lot as productive, and many of them are not. Many of them are there to help position the business to out-do the competition using the laws they gave to lobbyists to pass.

I don't think they respect private property that belongs to the criminals, but the vast majority don't have anything against individuals owning things in general.

[AuH20]

A friend on my facebook page supports OWS because he thinks all the white collar jerks making $80k+ a year are wanting him to make less money for working on roads. In his words, "It's their turn to pay instead of me." Another one remarked, "Hell yeah I can't wait for the class war."

People are itching to point the finger, and I will not join that. Conceivably, I think it's reasonably justified to point to DC and certain large commercial banks that requested bailout-or-die money.

But lately, I've been looking more inward and thinking, aren't we really to blame? We've let our culture be commercialized to the point everyone is trying to out-do the next guy having the Eddie Bauer edition Explorer, or the newest gizmo, or the extra bedroom on the house. I will certainly not denigrate the progress we've made in the ability to have more leisure time, but how do we spend that leisure time seems to have eroded our culture. The libertarian part of me thinks we have vastly more choice to which we can direct our behavior, but the conservative side of me laments the traditional bonds of our culture that seem to be eroding.

I just see the soul of OWS being further destruction and division, by no means any sort of restoration, of our national soul, if that makes any sense (to which I expect several replies of "none at all!").

He wants to fight white collar guys who make 80K? they're not part of the problem.

[pcosmar]

Wall Street is not the free market. It is a corrupt, fascist crime in progress.

People have a right to object to the way wealth is distributed in this country because it is not based on merit or performance. It is based on political clout, treachery, and violence.

But if we don't make an effort to educate them, the baby is going to go out with the bathwater.

The Pod Cast I posted in the other thread with the interview of David Degraw goes into this some.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?328851-Red-List-Radio-Anyone-listen-to-them
He make that point exactly,, that some have just come to the realization that something is wrong,, and don't have the knowledge that some who have taken the Red Pill some time ago have.
All they know is that they are pissed. And they need education.

[Rothbardian Girl]

A friend on my facebook page supports OWS because he thinks all the white collar jerks making $80k+ a year are wanting him to make less money for working on roads. In his words, "It's their turn to pay instead of me." Another one remarked, "Hell yeah I can't wait for the class war."

People are itching to point the finger, and I will not join that. Conceivably, I think it's reasonably justified to point to DC and certain large commercial banks that requested bailout-or-die money.

But lately, I've been looking more inward and thinking, aren't we really to blame? We've let our culture be commercialized to the point everyone is trying to out-do the next guy having the Eddie Bauer edition Explorer, or the newest gizmo, or the extra bedroom on the house. I will certainly not denigrate the progress we've made in the ability to have more leisure time, but how do we spend that leisure time seems to have eroded our culture. The libertarian part of me thinks we have vastly more choice to which we can direct our behavior, but the conservative side of me laments the traditional bonds of our culture that seem to be eroding.

I just see the soul of OWS being further destruction and division, by no means any sort of restoration, of our national soul, if that makes any sense (to which I expect several replies of "none at all!").

I agree with your bolded portion. But I think that over-commercialization is precisely the product of corporatism and its partner in crime, Wall Street. It is precisely the big-box, throw-everything-out, wasteful-production mentality that has been embraced by these entities because it keeps the wheels churning. I think these demonstrations are a direct reaction to this system, which honestly closely resembles feudalism, not how "capitalism" or the "free market" should work. People, in short, know there is something horribly, catastrophically wrong with our economy and it has been this way for a while.

I think what you protest against, the ignorance of these Wall Streeters as to the other problems with the economic system, is also a result of media brainwashing, which forces these people into the "more regulation is good, Democrat vs. Republican" mentality. Everything is just incredibly intertwined, and I really do believe the whole thing has to go in order for us to right the ship permanently. I know it is scary to think about a revolution happening, but if this abuse keeps up, we are going to be pushed to the breaking point. I don't see OWS as a symbol of division -- I see it as exactly the opposite -- a union of people who know that there is something wrong, instead of continuing to placidly accept their frankly oppressive conditions.

[Acala]

The Pod Cast I posted in the other thread with the interview of David Degraw goes into this some.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?328851-Red-List-Radio-Anyone-listen-to-them
He make that point exactly,, that some have just come to the realization that something is wrong,, and don't have the knowledge that some who have taken the Red Pill some time ago have.
All they know is that they are pissed. And they need education.

We all wanted the sheeple to wake up. Did we really expect them to wake up with a full understanding of the intricate and carefully obscured ways in which the den of thieves and vipers have gamed the system to screw them? They NEED help. If, after all, they choose socialism, then the fight changes. But right now the battle is for the minds of the leaders who have gotten off their asses and into the streets. They can't support liberty unless they understand it.

[Acala]

I agree with your bolded portion. But I think that over-commercialization is precisely the product of corporatism and its partner in crime, Wall Street. It is precisely the big-box, throw-everything-out, wasteful-production mentality that has been embraced by these entities because it keeps the wheels churning. I think these demonstrations are a direct reaction to this system, which honestly closely resembles feudalism, not how "capitalism" or the "free market" should work. People, in short, know there is something horribly, catastrophically wrong with our economy and it has been this way for a while.

I think what you protest against, the ignorance of these Wall Streeters as to the other problems with the economic system, is also a result of media brainwashing, which forces these people into the "more regulation is good, Democrat vs. Republican" mentality. Everything is just incredibly intertwined, and I really do believe the whole thing has to go in order for us to right the ship permanently. I know it is scary to think about a revolution happening, but if this abuse keeps up, we are going to be pushed to the breaking point. I don't see OWS as a symbol of division -- I see it as exactly the opposite -- a union of people who know that there is something wrong, instead of continuing to placidly accept their frankly oppressive conditions.

Exactly

[jmdrake]

A friend on my facebook page supports OWS because he thinks all the white collar jerks making $80k+ a year are wanting him to make less money for working on roads. In his words, "It's their turn to pay instead of me." Another one remarked, "Hell yeah I can't wait for the class war."

People are itching to point the finger, and I will not join that. Conceivably, I think it's reasonably justified to point to DC and certain large commercial banks that requested bailout-or-die money.

But lately, I've been looking more inward and thinking, aren't we really to blame? We've let our culture be commercialized to the point everyone is trying to out-do the next guy having the Eddie Bauer edition Explorer, or the newest gizmo, or the extra bedroom on the house. I will certainly not denigrate the progress we've made in the ability to have more leisure time, but how do we spend that leisure time seems to have eroded our culture. The libertarian part of me thinks we have vastly more choice to which we can direct our behavior, but the conservative side of me laments the traditional bonds of our culture that seem to be eroding.

I just see the soul of OWS being further destruction and division, by no means any sort of restoration, of our national soul, if that makes any sense (to which I expect several replies of "none at all!").

It makes perfect sense. There are a lot of people are upset but they aren't informed enough to really know what to be upset about. They know "rich people" created this current mess but they don't know who or why or how. So some are lashing out blindly. But there are some trying to steer this organic movement into a positive direction.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2s7i8uo.jpg

[angelatc]

What free market? I am sick of this term being bandied around on here like it actually exists. They wouldn't be rejecting the free market if they had a clue to how it actually would work if put into existence. !

Why do you think that?

[AuH20]

OWS wants to steal back the alleged wealth that was taken from them. For that reason alone, I am scared to death of them. It's a movement driven on envy as opposed to principle. It's not like they're going to be able to satisfy their thirst for social justice with the blue-bloods of the world, on the account there are very few of them and they're aren't openly accessible, so they'll likely go after Dan the CPA or Bob the small business owner.

[Rothbardian Girl]

Why do you think that?
Because a free market wouldn't lead to enormous concentrations of wealth and privilege, like the system we currently labor under.

[low preference guy]

Because a free market wouldn't lead to enormous concentrations of wealth and privilege, like the system we currently labor under.

there are people of enormous talent and creativity. they would get a somewhat proportional amount of wealth in a free market.

[angelatc]

I think most OWS folks I would know would disagree with this post. They would be against the banking industry writing the banking regulations because that would be corruption, which they are clearly against.

They don't think productive people are bad, they see high level executives and others as a leech off of the productivity of businesses because they get special incentives from government. They don't see the high level executives who get paid a lot as productive, and many of them are not. Many of them are there to help position the business to out-do the competition using the laws they gave to lobbyists to pass.

I don't think they respect private property that belongs to the criminals, but the vast majority don't have anything against individuals owning things in general.

Who made them the judges of who are criminals, exactly? I'm sorry, but you're just another brainwashed socialist if you honestly think that there's "a lot" of high level executives that aren't productive. According to them, a guy who spends his life on a production doing a job that should have been automated 20 years ago is productive, but the guy who has the idea to automate the process isn't.

[low preference guy]

Who made them the judges of who are criminals, exactly? I'm sorry, but you're just another brainwashed socialist if you honestly think that there's "a lot" of high level executives that aren't productive. According to them, a guy who spends his life on a production doing a job that should have been automated 20 years ago is productive, but the guy who has the idea to automate the process isn't.

maybe dannno should take a look at this

The real one percent: 80% of millionaires earned their money (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=13833) by Michael Tanner

[Rothbardian Girl]

there are people of enormous talent and creativity. they would get a somewhat proportional amount of wealth in a free market.
Correct. I am not saying that people's individual talent and creativity would not be rewarded in a free market - I am saying that they would be exposed to more competition. We wouldn't be forced to endure antiquated, highly stratified and bureaucratic methods of running a business (like what is commonly found within the corporate system), which closely mirror the patterns of privilege within society. The way I like to think of it is monopoly (what we currently have now) vs. competition. Of course, the smaller-scale you go, the less and less this pattern will be apparent, but I think our current culture of corporatism only encourages barriers to peoples' productivity and know-how.

[Cowlesy]

Forbes quoted Chef Mario Batali today:
Sayeth the restaurateur: “I would have to say that who has had the largest effect on the whole planet without us really paying attention across the board and everywhere is the entire banking industry and their disregard for the people that are supposed to be working for them [sic]….So the ways the bankers have kind of toppled the way money is distributed and taken most of it into their hands is as good as Stalin or Hitler and the evil guys…[T]heir evil has had a huge effect on the world.”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2011/11/08/celebrity-chef-mario-batali-says-bankers-as-bad-as-hitler-stalin/

To which, an astute Wall Streeter replied in the comments at Dealbreaker pretending to be Mario:

On another note - I'd like to thank my bankers for financing the opening of my new restaurant in Singapore, and for providing us the credit facilities to meet working capital requirements during the financial crisis.

I'd also like to thank the Singaporean and Swiss bankers who are managing my wealth (limiting tax liabilities) and affording me the opportunity to look as good as I do.

- Batty
http://cache.dealbreaker.com/uploads/2011/11/mario-batali-722497.jpg


See, demonizing all of Wall Street is just ridiculous. Wall Street's main job is to efficiently allocate capital of private individuals (you, me, anyone with a retirement account or brokerage account) to productive enterprises. Devil's work, I know.

[klamath]

Actually, no. It said 21% were Ron Paul supporters.
There were a number of different questions.
Picking and choicing what you want out of that poll aren't you. They didn't say they would vote for him but that they would like to see him as the republican nominee and ONLY 3% intended to vote for the republican nominee. Also you forgot to mention that a large majority thought the governement did the right thing, 60% voted for Obama, Another 22 percent were for the socialist and green parties. 75% did not like the teaparty while only 7 % did and it isn't because of the prowar side of the tea party because only 9% gave a shit about the wars.
But I am sure all the other numbers in the poll are lies and propaganda EXCEPT when the numbers seem to match your belief.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/occupy-wall-street-protesters-anti-obama-plan-skip-2012-election-fordham-poll-finds-article-1.970614#ixzz1dFLXRRNR
and only like 3 percent of them would vote for the GOP nominee which would be RP if that

[angelatc]

Because a free market wouldn't lead to enormous concentrations of wealth and privilege, like the system we currently labor under.

No, I meant why do you think that they simply don't understand the concept of a free market? There is a certain validity to the liberal talking point that what we have now is actually the ultimate evolution of a free market.

[klamath]

Wall Street is not the free market. It is a corrupt, fascist crime in progress.

People have a right to object to the way wealth is distributed in this country because it is not based on merit or performance. It is based on political clout, treachery, and violence.

But if we don't make an effort to educate them, the baby is going to go out with the bathwater.
And yeaw we don't want to collectivise OWS but with a wave of the hand all of wallstreet is corrupt fascist Criminals!!!!

[Brett85]

False.

Areas of agreement:

End the wars
End corporate bailouts and welfare
End the military industrial complex
End the Fed
Reign in the banks
End the drug war
End the Patriot Act

I am sure there is more, but that right there is enough to justify working together

"Working together" with a certain group or certain people is different from actually joining it. If I was a member of Congress, I might be able to work with Democrats on one or two issues, but I wouldn't actually join the Democratic Party.