TX - HS football stadium scene of mass sickness.

[Anti Federalist]

Trial run?

I first thought "food poisoning" but people were reporting a strange smell, and a second story, here (http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1288939), reports that the people that got sick all ate at different places and different times.


22 Students Hospitalized After Falling Ill at Houston High School Football Game

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/05/22-students-hospitalized-after-falling-ill-at-houston-high-school-football-game/#ixzz1cxNn7EAa

HOUSTON – More than 20 people, mostly band members, were hospitalized Friday night after suddenly falling ill during a high school football game in southwest Houston on Friday night.

It was first believed they had been exposed to an unknown chemical, but fire officials said later they had found no trace of gases or chemical agents at the scene.

Austin and Yates high schools were playing at Barnett Stadium when, sometime around 9:00pm local time, students suddenly fell ill and hazmat teams and emergency crews were dispatched to the stadium, myFOXhouston reported.

The victims, mainly band members and dancers from Austin High, were reportedly suffering from nausea, vomiting and heart palpitations.

David Almaguer, Houston Fire Department assistant chief, told KTRK-TV that the victims had been taken to several local hospitals.

"A number of the students were complaining of nausea," he said. "We ended up with 22 students being transported to five different hospitals"

A hazmat team was set up a decontamination unit in the vicinity of the stadium, which was evacuated following the incident, KPRC-TV reported.

A student told myFOXhouston he began to smell something odd when he saw his sister lose consciousness.

Another witness told KTRK-TV, "Three dancers moved to the side and started throwing up, then as we got to the stands, more started falling."

A doctor who interviewed patients at the scene said investigators were still trying to work out what caused the students to suddenly become ill, after fire officials said their detection equipment had found no sign of gases or chemical agents in the area.

"The kids all ate at different places, some of them ate at different times ... but they did have something in their stomachs. At this point, it remains a little unclear what set it off," Emergency Medical Services doctor David Purse said.

[dannno]

Hmmm, wonder if the "odd smell" was components of other student's vomit or was it related to what caused it?

[spudea]

monkey see monkey vomit

[torchbearer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STB4s7Qhf40

[MelissaWV]

In all fairness, AF, if this had happened in your youth I think your first thought would have been that some pranksters had nabbed some chemicals from their science lab and had done something stupid. In fact, you might've been one of the pranksters :p

Now, though, even if the scenario I proposed is true, the kids are terrorists.

[Sola_Fide]

That settles it. We need drones at all football games now.

[pcosmar]

Testing some new crowd control perhaps?

There are several stories on it.

The victims, mostly members from the Austin band and drill team, reportedly suffered from vomiting, nausea and heart palpitations. One of those being treated was a firefighter.

No chemical agents found. (or no KNOWN agents found)
And the folks in the stands were not affected.

Infrasound could have this effect.

[PastaRocket848]

Oh for christ's sake, some kids got sick. I'm sure the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that it's some vast government conspiracy to enslave the nations youth.

[Anti Federalist]

In all fairness, AF, if this had happened in your youth I think your first thought would have been that some pranksters had nabbed some chemicals from their science lab and had done something stupid. In fact, you might've been one of the pranksters :p

Now, though, even if the scenario I proposed is true, the kids are terrorists.

In my years of both sailing and flying, I learned not to pull barfing stunts on people.

It can cause epic blowback.

Observe:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNK9DiP1oV8

[Anti Federalist]

Oh for christ's sake, some kids got sick. I'm sure the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that it's some vast government conspiracy to enslave the nations youth.

Is it?

Of course, government has never tested or used bioweapons against the American people, right?

[Brian4Liberty]

As resident skeptic, I submit the following for consideration:


Sociogenic illness (or mass sociogenic illness) is a term that is used to describe a medical condition that spreads within a social group, but does not seem to have a common organic cause. Sociogenic illnesses may be psychosomatic in nature resembling a mass hysteria, or may be defined by individuals with disparate illnesses that are wrongly linked to a common cause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_sociogenic_illness

[dannno]

Infrasound could have this effect.

Hah, or maybe the band found the "green" noise :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IH4BjAd0Ts

[Brian4Liberty]

monkey see monkey vomit

:D

:eek:

831

[eduardo89]

Obviously an Iranian backed terror plot. Time to invade.

[CaptainAmerica]

Maybe the water facility nearby had too much chlorine in the water? I know that there was a big accident here in arizona about 10 years ago when chlorine fumes went into the air from the water treatment plant and it was causing a lot of illness which was mysterious until the plant leak was discovered.

[Guitarzan]

A well placed silent beer fart could have that consequence...so I'm not sure about the gov't being involved until I receive more info.


Where there any keggers in the area the previous night?

And if so, did the any of the band members happen to eat at Denny's after leaving the party?


These are questions we must have answered prior to looking into the gov't secretly placing chemical agents into the reeds of the local clarinet players.

[PastaRocket848]

Enough with the logic and reason, we have a conspiracy theory to promote here...

[dannno]

Enough with the logic and reason, we have a conspiracy theory to promote here...

Ok, so what is your logic and reason?

[flightlesskiwi]

my first thought was that the high school geeks planned this.


As a precaution, 22 students from the band and drill team

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Hazmat-sent-to-football-game-after-dozens-become-2253104.php

flame on!! yeah!

[PastaRocket848]

Some kids got sick. When I was in school we had a week where 50 out of 70 kids were out sick. It wasn't a vast conspiracy. Some kid got sick.

How can we adhere to an ideology rooted in the idea that government is inept, while simultaneously thinking that they're capable of pulling off, and effectively hiding, dozens upon dozens of vast conspiracies?

[freeforall]

A well placed silent beer fart could have that consequence...

OMG! Could you imagine being the guy that farted and sent 22 people to the hospital?!!

I. would. die. and never tell anyone.

[torchbearer]

we used to eat together at the school before high school events. perhaps there is a common point of ingestion of either food poisoning or punch bowl spiking.

[Anti Federalist]

Enough with the logic and reason, we have a conspiracy theory to promote here...


Some kids got sick. When I was in school we had a week where 50 out of 70 kids were out sick. It wasn't a vast conspiracy. Some kid got sick.

How can we adhere to an ideology rooted in the idea that government is inept, while simultaneously thinking that they're capable of pulling off, and effectively hiding, dozens upon dozens of vast conspiracies?

I'm not promoting anything, other than suggestions.

This isn't normal absenteeism, spread out over a week's time.

This is a bunch of people falling ill all at once, suddenly, in a localized area.

Maybe it's nothing more than what other people have already noted, barf reflex in a crowd.

It could very well be that the media report is wrong, and they all ate a bunch of tainted hot dogs.

I do not think for one second government is inept and bumbling, just the opposite, government is, in fact, a clicking, precise, machine of death, perfectly capable of pulling off poisoning a whole stadium full of people and covering it up well enough so that nobody would ever figure it out. Similar things have been done before, many, many times.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, I'm wondering aloud if it did.

[Anti Federalist]

OMG! Could you imagine being the guy that farted and sent 22 people to the hospital?!!

I. would. die. and never tell anyone.

What?

Are you kidding?

I'd want a medal for that. :toady::D:toady:

[angelatc]

What?

Are you kidding?

I'd want a medal for that. :toady::D:toady:

Yeah, that's definitely got bragging rights written all over it.

[Lafayette]

Will know within a day or so if it is the start of the zombie apocalypse...

[pcosmar]

Some kids got sick. When I was in school we had a week where 50 out of 70 kids were out sick. It wasn't a vast conspiracy. Some kid got sick.


All at the same time? in the same location?

Food and drink have been ruled out as they all ate and drank different things at different times.

No one in the stands was affected. Only those in that area at that time.
Barring an unknown and undetected chemical agent,,, What would be the cause?

http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/256/sonic_weapons.html
http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/5/acousticsofwar.php

[Rothbardian Girl]

I still think it was, as Brian4Liberty posted earlier, an incident of mass hysteria...

[QueenB4Liberty]

what would be the point of releasing a chemical agent at a high school football game? Test run?

[pcosmar]

what would be the point of releasing a chemical agent at a high school football game? Test run?

"Test run?"

Exactly.
Either the chemical is undetectable,, or they lied about it. (if it was a chemical)

Does our government have a history of testing stuff on people?


(hell Yes)
:(

[torchbearer]

"Test run?"

Exactly.
Either the chemical is undetectable,, or they lied about it. (if it was a chemical)

Does our government have a history of testing stuff on people?


(hell Yes)
:(

they must have tried it on some third worlders first.

[Miss Annie]

Hmmmm........ Chemtrails anyone? After seeing our own Bill Gates talk about depopulation, certainly would not surprise me. After all we discharge too much Carbon Dioxide!

[specsaregood]

bandmembers passed around some bad shrooms before the game. thats my theory.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I hate to inform the gallery, but being in Houston alone is enough to make you vomit. Really, the only way to survive here is to build up a resistance to gaseous muck.

[torchbearer]

bandmembers passed around some bad shrooms before the game. thats my theory.

didn't want to be the first one to put that out there.

[torchbearer]

I hate to inform the gallery, but being in Houston alone is enough to make you vomit. Really, the only way to survive here is to build up a resistance to gaseous muck.

i get the same feeling listening to the debates. i keep it on mute now until ron gets on.

[specsaregood]

didn't want to be the first one to put that out there.

those bandgeeks party, so i hear.

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

Maybe someone showed them the statistics for getting laid while in the school band.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Maybe someone showed them the statistics for getting laid while in the school band.

R u kidding? I never would have gotten laid had I not been in band. (Maybe not good form to admit that, ...but I've moved on.)

[flightlesskiwi]

R u kidding? I never would have gotten laid had I not been in band. (Maybe not good form to admit that, ...but I've moved on.)

pfffffffffffft. whatevs. and whatevs. and whatevs.

you guess the whatevs i'm whateving.

[EvilEngineer]

Actually this sounds more related to the individual running around Houston and spiking drinks with benzene. We had an incident a week or so ago of someone at a quick stop getting poisoned in a similar fashion.

Benzene will cause nausea and dizziness and as it floors your potassium levels it can cause heart palpitations and cardiac arrest.

[AFPVet]

Actually this sounds more related to the individual running around Houston and spiking drinks with benzene. We had an incident a week or so ago of someone at a quick stop getting poisoned in a similar fashion.

Benzene will cause nausea and dizziness and as it floors your potassium levels it can cause heart palpitations and cardiac arrest.

Wow! Scary stuff!

[Anti Federalist]

Actually this sounds more related to the individual running around Houston and spiking drinks with benzene. We had an incident a week or so ago of someone at a quick stop getting poisoned in a similar fashion.

Benzene will cause nausea and dizziness and as it floors your potassium levels it can cause heart palpitations and cardiac arrest.

Really?

Linky plz.

[EvilEngineer]

Wow! Scary stuff!

Originally I dismissed the report as idiot error and self contamination. Benzene is a major component found in gasoline and it was a beverage purchased AT a gas stop. A little gas on the hands winds up in the drink... presto you've poisoned your self with benzene.

However if there are more incidents like this, then we've got someone on the loose purposefully doing this. Or more contamination of ground water due to natural gas fracking.

[EvilEngineer]

Really?

Linky plz.

http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2011/11/houston-woman-becomes-ill-after-drinking-contaminated-dr-pepper/

[MelissaWV]

Darn you and your explanations.

...or are you a Government plant!!!???111 :eek:

[pcosmar]

Actually this sounds more related to the individual running around Houston and spiking drinks with benzene. We had an incident a week or so ago of someone at a quick stop getting poisoned in a similar fashion.

Benzene will cause nausea and dizziness and as it floors your potassium levels it can cause heart palpitations and cardiac arrest.

Actually,, it sounds nothing like that.

http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/river_oaks/news/scary-night-at-hisd-football-game-end-up-in-hospital/article_29dbc62c-c3fd-586b-8743-c97405d58247.html


Houston ISD won’t use Barnett Stadium in southeast Houston Saturday while a mysterious incident that caused at least 22 Austin High School students and a first responder to become ill at the stadium Friday night is figured out.

Saturday’s scheduled football contest between Furr and Booker T. Washington High School will instead be played at 1 p.m. at Dyer Stadium, 2020 Mangum Road.

Twenty-two students were transported to five hospitals after becoming dizzy and nauseated shortly after halftime ended about 9 p.m. Most of them were members of the Austin High band and drill team and were in the concession stand area when they fell ill. No one in the stands was affected, according to reports from ABC-13, the Examiners’ broadcast news partner.

Emergency crews, including Houston Fire Department Hazardous Materials responders, swarmed the scene and evacuated part of the stadium, offering triage to those suffering. One firefighter was overcome, but recovered enough to help transport students to the hospital later, officials said.

HazMat was unable to detect any chemical agents or gases in the area, and said no one reported smelling anything suspicious.

Food was also being investigated as a potential sources, but Houston’s EMS director said that wasn’t providing many clues.

"The kids all ate at different places, some of them ate at different times... but they did have something in their stomachs. At this point, it remains a little unclear what set it off," Dr. David Perse told ABC-13. "It's still a mystery right now."

[MelissaWV]

Pete, they ate at different times, but did they drink anything before going on the field?

The firefighter was overcome by what? Did he just get sick? I'm pretty sure that a narrow space full of vomit would make me ill, too.

Sometimes a duck is just a duck, and not a feathered stealth mini missile silo.

[pcosmar]

http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2011/11/houston-woman-becomes-ill-after-drinking-contaminated-dr-pepper/

In order for that to have happened, they would all have to be drinking from the same contaminated source,, including the random firefighter that was a first responder.

[pcosmar]

Pete, they ate at different times, but did they drink anything before going on the field?

The firefighter was overcome by what? Did he just get sick? I'm pretty sure that a narrow space full of vomit would make me ill, too.

Sometimes a duck is just a duck, and not a feathered stealth mini missile silo.

Haz-Mat sampling for Chemicals would have (I would think) detected Benzene in the area.

[Anti Federalist]

Haz-Mat sampling for Chemicals would have (I would think) detected Benzene in the area.

Bezene levels high enough to contaminate food and drink and make everybody sick like this would definitely be detected by standard hazmat detectors.

[Ranger29860]

Bezene levels high enough to contaminate food and drink and make everybody sick like this would definitely be detected by standard hazmat detectors.

Could it simply have been seeing someone else puke made the rest of them do it? Hell i get nausea when someone just tells me there sick.

[Nate-ForLiberty]

pfffffffffffft. whatevs. and whatevs. and whatevs.

you guess the whatevs i'm whateving.

whatevs!

[Anti Federalist]

Could it simply have been seeing someone else puke made the rest of them do it? Hell i get nausea when someone just tells me there sick.

Yes, very possible, and I said so in post #23.

[pcosmar]

Could it simply have been seeing someone else puke made the rest of them do it? Hell i get nausea when someone just tells me there sick.

22 people, some becoming unconscious, and a Fireman.. I don't think so.

[EvilEngineer]

Bezene levels high enough to contaminate food and drink and make everybody sick like this would definitely be detected by standard hazmat detectors.

Depends on it's the method of contamination, temperature, and pressure. Generally at room temperature, benzene evaporates at a rate of 0.0166 ml/s.
If it was a dissolved in a liquid with a volume of 100ml, it would completely evaporate within 2 hours. So the amount sampled would greatly depend on how fast the hazmat sampling occurred.

[EvilEngineer]

Worse yet... get on a tour boat with a bunch of easily sea sick people, and head into rough choppy waters. >.< nothing like being surrounded on every side by people throwing up, with no where to get away from them or the smell.

[pcosmar]

Well, It's all speculation.

But then so was that sound cannon till they rolled it out in the street.

Watch and see if this same phenomenon reoccurs in the protests around the country.
;)

[Anti Federalist]

Depends on it's the method of contamination, temperature, and pressure. Generally at room temperature, benzene evaporates at a rate of 0.0166 ml/s.
If it was a dissolved in a liquid with a volume of 100ml, it would completely evaporate within 2 hours. So the amount sampled would greatly depend on how fast the hazmat sampling occurred.

I'm thinking airborne detection.

I have bezene detectors that will sniff it out to 1 ppm, I can adjust the lower alarm level down to the point where you'd get an active alarm if you filled the gas tank on your car.

I'm going to have to assume that a big city HAZMAT team would have the same sort of sniffers and that a relatively large amount of bezene, enough to get everybody sick, would get picked up.

[Anti Federalist]

Well, It's all speculation.

But then so was that sound cannon till they rolled it out in the street.

Watch and see if this same phenomenon reoccurs in the protests around the country.
;)

Already being done.

Oakland PD used LRAD to clear out the Occupy Oakland demonstrators on 11 October of this year.


Twitter was flooded with reports of a long-range acoustic device, known as an LRAD, which uses loud noises as a form of non-lethal crowd control. We didn't see a picture of it, but the source of the report appears to be the Occupy Oakland live feed, which is now showing police milling about in the now-empty Frank Ogawa Plaza downtown. A news report from last year confirms the Oakland department has such a device.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/10/occupy-oaklands-tent-city-gone/44092/

[freeforall]

Just a thought to add to conspiracy - the band section would be the only area that would generally not have young children or elderly people that may be more harshly affected than young generally healthy teenagers.

[Cowlesy]

Maybe they all drank syrup of ipecac before the game, and then when the firefighter got there someone yelled "WHO WANTS CHOWDER!?!?!" and it was a natural reaction.

But in all seriousness, that is quite bizarre they all got sick at the same time.

[John F Kennedy III]

Oh for christ's sake, some kids got sick. I'm sure the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that it's some vast government conspiracy to enslave the nations youth.

Lol. Somebody has some research to do.

[heavenlyboy34]

What?

Are you kidding?

I'd want a medal for that. :toady::D:toady:
OMG, LOL!

[John F Kennedy III]

I'm not promoting anything, other than suggestions.

This isn't normal absenteeism, spread out over a week's time.

This is a bunch of people falling ill all at once, suddenly, in a localized area.

Maybe it's nothing more than what other people have already noted, barf reflex in a crowd.

It could very well be that the media report is wrong, and they all ate a bunch of tainted hot dogs.

I do not think for one second government is inept and bumbling, just the opposite, government is, in fact, a clicking, precise, machine of death, perfectly capable of pulling off poisoning a whole stadium full of people and covering it up well enough so that nobody would ever figure it out. Similar things have been done before, many, many times.

I'm not saying that's what happened here, I'm wondering aloud if it did.

This.

[Kludge]

Dog vomited out more than I thought she could contain in her stomach couple days ago. Got a bit of it out of the house with a shovel before she ate it. Then she vomited it all back up again - even more, this time. Absolutely awful smell the second time. Pretty close to vomiting, myself -- gagged. Ended up pouring bleach on the floor (cement/marble mix called terrazzo), then brought the hose out of Winter break to try getting most of the vomit it outside, but all the chunks ended out in the garage. Dog tried eating the chunks out of the bleach-vomit water again.

Violence begets violence. More importantly, vomit begets vomit... Or it could be a government test of a new weapon in its arsenal of biological warfare to use against US citizens. I could believe either, but have you guys had to clean up a sewage backup? Made me want to go back to shitting in Folgers cans.

[Anti Federalist]

Made me want to go back to shitting in Folgers cans.

Folgers cans? :confused:

Five gallon bucket with a toilet seat is about as small as I would consider safe. :eek:

[Anti Federalist]

Maybe they all drank syrup of ipecac before the game, and then when the firefighter got there someone yelled "WHO WANTS CHOWDER!?!?!" and it was a natural reaction.

But in all seriousness, that is quite bizarre they all got sick at the same time.

Gotta post it now:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eYSpIz2FjU

[Kludge]

Folgers cans? :confused:

Five gallon bucket with a toilet seat is about as small as I would consider safe. :eek:
Lol - hey, I worked with what I had! :D

The Folgers cans are pretty easy to re-seal and dispose of, and they store the coffee grounds which make already-brown water tolerable to drink.

[Brian4Liberty]

Gotta post it now:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eYSpIz2FjU

Seriously LMAO! :D Don't know how I missed that...

[PaulConventionWV]

Oh for christ's sake, some kids got sick. I'm sure the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that it's some vast government conspiracy to enslave the nations youth.

I'm normally sympathetic to conspiracy theories, since many of them I believe to be undoubtedly true, but this does seem a little far-fetched. Why here? Why now? So many questions have to be answered before we can say it's all a part of the government's conspiracy to enslave us. My mom's meatloaf could be said to be the same thing judging by its effects.

[PaulConventionWV]

Some kids got sick. When I was in school we had a week where 50 out of 70 kids were out sick. It wasn't a vast conspiracy. Some kid got sick.

How can we adhere to an ideology rooted in the idea that government is inept, while simultaneously thinking that they're capable of pulling off, and effectively hiding, dozens upon dozens of vast conspiracies?

In all fairness, a lot of people don't think government is inept, just evil. That may be YOUR ideology, but I don't hold that view. Ineptness can't explain away everything the government has done. If that were the case, they would occasionally do something in our favor.

[oyarde]

Between the ages of , maybe , 18 and 22 , I had bad food poisoning a couple of times . Was on my back , throwing up for a couple of days .No heart changes though.

[heavenlyboy34]

R u kidding? I never would have gotten laid had I not been in band. (Maybe not good form to admit that, ...but I've moved on.)
Nate got laid? Anyone spot some flying pigs? ;)

[Anti Federalist]

Nate got laid? Anyone spot some flying pigs? ;)

Lulz!!!

[Nate-ForLiberty]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JO2OK5G8gZI/TL9IuFfAunI/AAAAAAAABqk/L65t44-XND0/s1600/bill-murray-you-suck.jpg

jurks!

(Don't you know Drum Majors always git da bitches!?)

[heavenlyboy34]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JO2OK5G8gZI/TL9IuFfAunI/AAAAAAAABqk/L65t44-XND0/s1600/bill-murray-you-suck.jpg

jurks!

(Don't you know Drum Majors always git da bitches!?)
Nope, never heard that. It's always been guitarists and singers in my experience. Why do you think I became a guitarist? ;)

[heavenlyboy34]

Lulz!!!
:D Surely it's worth a +rep or 2, yes? ;)

[kill the banks]

they were on the same stuff as Rick Perry ... although some times I think Rick is a manchurian candidate plant (or vegetable )

[Brian4Liberty]

Interesting article on the history of mass sociogenic illness. Most modern occurrences are triggered by odors, mistaken for toxins.

Not mentioned in the article is the interaction between the presence of real harmful substances and fear induced hysteria. It's possible, and highly likely, that a real toxin of some kind would also trigger a mass sociogenic response at the same time. To make it even more complicated, you could always have a true toxin present, but so dilute that it would not have a real physical effect, yet still have the mass sociogenic effect.

http://psyed.org/r/psd/anx/mh/mhd/mh_proto.pdf

[Athan]

Ok, seriously. Who farted?

[Nate-ForLiberty]

:D Surely it's worth a +rep or 2, yes? ;) Can't claim skillz if you're a whore.

[oyarde]

Interesting article on the history of mass sociogenic illness. Most modern occurrences are triggered by odors, mistaken for toxins.

Not mentioned in the article is the interaction between the presence of real harmful substances and fear induced hysteria. It's possible, and highly likely, that a real toxin of some kind would also trigger a mass sociogenic response at the same time. To make it even more complicated, you could always have a true toxin present, but so dilute that it would not have a real physical effect, yet still have the mass sociogenic effect.

http://psyed.org/r/psd/anx/mh/mhd/mh_proto.pdf What kind of odors would do that ??

[Brian4Liberty]

What kind of odors would do that ??

Since mass sociogenic illness is psychosomatic, it could be any odor. If someone told you that poison gas smells like cherries, you might freak out the next time you smell cherries. ;)

[oyarde]

Since mass sociogenic illness is psychosomatic, it could be any odor. If someone told you that poison gas smells like cherries, you might freak out the next time you smell cherries. ;) Nah , I like cherries ( kirsch ) , and regretfully , I know full well what CS gas smells and tastes like :)

[dannno]

However if there are more incidents like this, then we've got someone on the loose purposefully doing this. Or more contamination of ground water due to natural gas fracking.


Hmmmmmm