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Anti Federalist
11-04-2011, 10:21 PM
They hate us for our freedom.



For Our Allies, Death From Above

By CLIVE STAFFORD SMITH
Published: November 3, 2011

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/opinion/in-pakistan-drones-kill-our-innocent-allies.html?_r=2

LAST Friday, I took part in an unusual meeting in Pakistan’s capital, Islamabad.

The meeting had been organized so that Pashtun tribal elders who lived along the Pakistani-Afghan frontier could meet with Westerners for the first time to offer their perspectives on the shadowy drone war being waged by the Central Intelligence Agency in their region. Twenty men came to air their views; some brought their young sons along to experience this rare interaction with Americans. In all, 60 villagers made the journey.

The meeting was organized as a traditional jirga. In Pashtun culture, a jirga acts as both a parliament and a courtroom: it is the time-honored way in which Pashtuns have tried to establish rules and settle differences amicably with those who they feel have wronged them.

On the night before the meeting, we had a dinner, to break the ice. During the meal, I met a boy named Tariq Aziz. He was 16. As we ate, the stern, bearded faces all around me slowly melted into smiles. Tariq smiled much sooner; he was too young to boast much facial hair, and too young to have learned to hate.

The next day, the jirga lasted several hours. I had a translator, but the gist of each man’s speech was clear. American drones would circle their homes all day before unleashing Hellfire missiles, often in the dark hours between midnight and dawn. Death lurked everywhere around them.

When it was my turn to speak, I mentioned the official American position: that these were precision strikes and no innocent civilian had been killed in 15 months. My comment was met with snorts of derision.

I told the elders that the only way to convince the American people of their suffering was to accumulate physical proof that civilians had been killed. Three of the men, at considerable personal risk, had collected the detritus of half a dozen missiles; they had taken 100 pictures of the carnage.

In one instance, they matched missile fragments with a photograph of a dead child, killed in August 2010 during the C.I.A.’s period of supposed infallibility. This made their grievances much more tangible.

Collecting evidence is a dangerous business. The drones are not the only enemy. The Pakistani military has sealed the area off from journalists, so the truth is hard to come by. One man investigating drone strikes that killed civilians was captured by the Taliban and held for 63 days on suspicion of spying for the United States.

At the end of the day, Tariq stepped forward. He volunteered to gather proof if it would help to protect his family from future harm. We told him to think about it some more before moving forward; if he carried a camera he might attract the hostility of the extremists.

But the militants never had the chance to harm him. On Monday, he was killed by a C.I.A. drone strike, along with his 12-year-old cousin, Waheed Khan. The two of them had been dispatched, with Tariq driving, to pick up their aunt and bring her home to the village of Norak, when their short lives were ended by a Hellfire missile.

My mistake had been to see the drone war in Waziristan in terms of abstract legal theory — as a blatantly illegal invasion of Pakistan’s sovereignty, akin to President Richard M. Nixon’s bombing of Cambodia in 1970.

But now, the issue has suddenly become very real and personal. Tariq was a good kid, and courageous. My warm hand recently touched his in friendship; yet, within three days, his would be cold in death, the rigor mortis inflicted by my government.

And Tariq’s extended family, so recently hoping to be our allies for peace, has now been ripped apart by an American missile — most likely making any effort we make at reconciliation futile.

James Madison
11-04-2011, 10:28 PM
1st Degree Murder....oh wait! It's only that if we mundanes do it.

Anti Federalist
11-04-2011, 10:46 PM
1st Degree Murder....oh wait! It's only that if we mundanes do it.

Think about that.

These infernal machines flying over head 24/7, randomly dispatching mach 5 death from missiles, with no apparent reason.

Random bombing is bad enough, but these things have a live video feed on them.

You are watched, closely, every move you make, until someone 10,000 miles away decides to snuff you, while you're taking a shit, walking down a road, or in this case, giving your aunt a ride.

When snipers in DC did roughly the same thing, the whole nation freaked the fuck out and was calling for blood.

And we wonder why these people are pissed?

phill4paul
11-04-2011, 10:51 PM
And we wonder why these people are pissed?

I could guess why those people are pissed. This 'people' already know it is here.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2010-12-09/news/miami-dade-police-buy-drones/

Unmanned aircraft ready to facilitate the bidding of their controller.

Agorism
11-04-2011, 10:51 PM
Obama should put on trial for treason for killing American citizens without trial (some of whom were minors.)

PierzStyx
11-04-2011, 11:56 PM
You know I sometimes think we forget to take into account all those who die in our foreign adventurism who aren't American. Its not just American soldier dying, or so-called threats. Its men women and children innocent of any crime against us other than being born in the wrong country. In Iraq we've killed over 1.4 million people. Saddam Hussein killed, in the highest estimates, 800,000. No wonder they hate us. We've killed more innocent people in ten years than the tyrant we supposedly went there to overthrow was able to in 20yrs. And the numbers keep stacking up, the death toll keeps rising. American hands are awash with blood and for what? The country is no safer, in fact we are more at danger than every before. The country is no more prosperous, in fact we are economically worse off than at anytime since the depths of the Great Depression. We are no more free-er, in fact our civil liberties have been continuously eroded and destroyed. If they hated us because we were free and prosperous well they can stop. We are no longer prosperous and we are continually losing our freedom each day; we are neither truly free nor prosperous. That is the result of all the blood that we have shed, the loss of liberty. Heaven help us.

Simple
11-05-2011, 12:59 AM
Where is the outcry? Where is our humanity?

vita3
11-05-2011, 05:46 AM
Our CIA is so out of control.

Demigod
11-05-2011, 06:00 AM
If they hated us because we were free and prosperous well they can stop. We are no longer prosperous and we are continually losing our freedom each day, we are neither truly free nor prosperous. That is the result of all the blood that we have shed the lose of liberty. Heaven help us.

Paul should say this in a debate.

Austrian Econ Disciple
11-05-2011, 10:15 AM
The CIA is death incarnate. If you think they are merely an overseas hydra, think again. The CIA has their tentacles everywhere. They have infiltrated the domestic occupiers and will be the equivalent KGB when you the individuals stuck inside what is referred to as America are targeted for political repression. The CIA has to go and as soon as humanly possible; them and the FBI. Wait until the real fireworks start when there is massive civil unrest across America. The good thing is -- we outnumber them.

pcosmar
11-05-2011, 11:08 AM
The good thing is -- we outnumber them.

Only if we resist their attempts to divide us and have us fighting each other.

And they are working that angle.

Miss Annie
11-05-2011, 11:56 AM
Only if we resist their attempts to divide us and have us fighting each other.

And they are working that angle.

And they are succeeding! I see more division in this country now than I ever have. I see religion against religion. Class against class. Race against race.
Where are they going to try to divide us next?

Anti Federalist
11-05-2011, 12:17 PM
Where are they going to try to divide us next?

Patriots v. "ordinary citizens".

We are the new al-Qaida.

Miss Annie
11-05-2011, 12:22 PM
Patriots v. "ordinary citizens".

We are the new al-Qaida.

You are so right about that!

flightlesskiwi
11-05-2011, 12:26 PM
And they are succeeding! I see more division in this country now than I ever have. I see religion against religion. Class against class. Race against race.
Where are they going to try to divide us next?

those who stand for liberty and self reliance v those who rely on government in times of adversity.

moderate libertarian
11-05-2011, 12:32 PM
They hate us for our freedom.



For Our Allies, Death From Above

By CLIVE STAFFORD SMITH
Published: November 3, 2011

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/opinion/in-pakistan-drones-kill-our-innocent-allies.html?_r=2


Collecting evidence is a dangerous business. The drones are not the only enemy. The Pakistani military has sealed the area off from journalists, so the truth is hard to come by. One man investigating drone strikes that killed civilians was captured by the Taliban and held for 63 days on suspicion of spying for the United States.

At the end of the day, Tariq stepped forward. He volunteered to gather proof if it would help to protect his family from future harm. We told him to think about it some more before moving forward; if he carried a camera he might attract the hostility of the extremists.

But the militants never had the chance to harm him. On Monday, he was killed by a C.I.A. drone strike, along with his 12-year-old cousin, Waheed Khan. The two of them had been dispatched, with Tariq driving, to pick up their aunt and bring her home to the village of Norak, when their short lives were ended by a Hellfire missile.


This needs to be investigated by a special Congressional committee. If there is any evidence that Obama ordered this killing, he needs to be impeached pronto and moved to a prison cell. Terrorising of innocent people should not be tolerated even if alleged terrorist/war criminal is current occupant of the WH.

Anti Federalist
11-05-2011, 12:35 PM
This needs to be investigated by a special Congressional committee. If there is any evidence that Obama ordered this killing, he needs to be impeached pronto and moved to a prison cell. Terrorising of innocent people should not be tolerated even if alleged terrorist/war criminal is current occupant of the WH.

I agree.

Wish it was that easy, though.

Miss Annie
11-05-2011, 12:37 PM
This needs to be investigated by a special Congressional committee. If there is any evidence that Obama ordered this killing, he needs to be impeached pronto and moved to a prison cell. Terrorising of innocent people should not be tolerated even if alleged terrorist/war criminal is current occupant of the WH.

The White House is already snubbing the subpoenas in regards to the Solyndra docs. I don't think that investigation is going to get very far.

Anti Federalist
11-06-2011, 01:24 AM
///

NewRightLibertarian
11-06-2011, 01:41 AM
There will be no investigation. Those who were murdered were 'terrorists' just like when they start killing people domestically they'll be 'terrorists' as well. And it will either be blacklisted or there will be a host of people in the media justifying the government murder.

CaptainAmerica
11-06-2011, 02:23 AM
1st Degree Murder....oh wait! It's only that if we mundanes do it.

This is because the government no longer fears us to the slightest degree.