Occupy protesters declare victory at shipping port

[Zippyjuan]

What did they "win"? What was changed? Nothing.

http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20111102/c78f9585-ceef-44f4-9988-cf8be201c253

OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) — Occupy Wall Street protesters have declared victory after shutting down evening operations at one of the nation's busiest shipping ports and begun leaving the area.

Organizers were telling demonstrators to head back to the downtown plaza across from City Hall, where the Oakland movement has been based for weeks and was the scene of intense clashes with authorities last week.

A voice over a bullhorn said "the night is not over, yet."

The nearly 5-hours protest at the Port of Oakland, the nation's fifth busiest shipping port, was intended to highlight a daylong "general strike" in the city, with complementary solidarity demonstrations across the nation.

The port demonstration was peaceful and police say there were no arrests at the scene.

[Kludge]

Strikes are extremely effective because they force spoilage and inefficiency. They threaten the GDP of this country and is an impact EVERYONE feels. It weakens GDP numbers, delays shipments, can cost jobs, and is a direct middle finger to authority in the US -- it signifies they're willing to be destructive to meet their goal. They're signaling that life now is too bad to continue without change. That's very serious, and this may just be the first of larger, longer, more consequential strikes and blockades. Action like this will demand dramatic response by authorities, for better or worse. Kind of refreshing to see, and interesting that it's happening during the historic Hope & Change administration. This will undermine the Obama legacy, which is pretty ironic given how many of the protesters support expediting Obama's agenda.

[Zippyjuan]

If you are a worker, you may go on strike to try to get a better employment contract (I had to endure one for nearly five months once- it was tough on everybody). That is the aim of the strike. I don't get what the Occupy people are trying to gain from their strike action. Most seem to be angry at the banks but this was against shipping of goods. Yes, it is an escalation.

[Kludge]

If you are a worker, you may go on strike to try to get a better employment contract (I had to endure one for nearly five months once- it was tough on everybody). That is the aim of the strike. I don't get what the Occupy people are trying to gain from their strike action. Most seem to be angry at the banks but this was against shipping of goods. Yes, it is an escalation.
That's not how political strikes work, and this isn't a traditional strike. This is a Strike - capital S! The beauty of what they're doing is the remarkable amount of passion they're displaying. They have nothing to directly gain from this, and it puts them at risk of serious harm, disrupts production, and worsens their status if they lose (and possibly if they "win," depending on what they win). This is directly assaulting production in the US and using that to force legislators to create change... or at least encourage more heavy-handed protest squashing.

This is like the first shot in a violent revolution. There's not much to gain in shooting folks, and puts you at great risk -- it's a true sacrifice, and it's the first large-scale initiation of force we've seen from OWS. End result may be tragic, and I doubt many of the protesters understand what they're really doing in committing aggression - basically against the US, but this is exciting nonetheless. I didn't think people could be motivated to do stuff like this in the US anymore.

[dannno]

If you are a worker, you may go on strike to try to get a better employment contract (I had to endure one for nearly five months once- it was tough on everybody). That is the aim of the strike. I don't get what the Occupy people are trying to gain from their strike action. Most seem to be angry at the banks but this was against shipping of goods. Yes, it is an escalation.

Why didn't you read Kludge's epic post?

[BlackTerrel]

The media hasn't really touched the violence that happened today. I have friends in Oakland. A vocal minority of the protesters smashed businesses including local banks but also a bunch of restaurants and a convenience store. Whole Foods was lotted and apparently looked like a war zone.

Later in the evening after most of the protesters left police clashed with the remaining protesters, fired tear gas etc... good times.

The Oakland Mayor Jean Quan is basically stuck in between the protesters who want her out because of the violence and between the business owners in Oakland who want her out because she has not protected their businesses and has allowed commerce to be disrupted. She is toast.

[moostraks]

The media hasn't really touched the violence that happened today. I have friends in Oakland. A vocal minority of the protesters smashed businesses including local banks but also a bunch of restaurants and a convenience store. Whole Foods was lotted and apparently looked like a war zone.

Later in the evening after most of the protesters left police clashed with the remaining protesters, fired tear gas etc... good times.

The Oakland Mayor Jean Quan is basically stuck in between the protesters who want her out because of the violence and between the business owners in Oakland who want her out because she has not protected their businesses and has allowed commerce to be disrupted. She is toast.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/11/oakland-protest-starts-unrelated-work-stoppage/44476/

A couple pictures of the damage to which you are referring. One comment states that some protesters attempted to wash graffiti off of Whole Foods.

[Created4]

Strikes are extremely effective because they force spoilage and inefficiency. They threaten the GDP of this country and is an impact EVERYONE feels. It weakens GDP numbers, delays shipments, can cost jobs, and is a direct middle finger to authority in the US -- it signifies they're willing to be destructive to meet their goal. They're signaling that life now is too bad to continue without change. That's very serious, and this may just be the first of larger, longer, more consequential strikes and blockades. Action like this will demand dramatic response by authorities, for better or worse. Kind of refreshing to see, and interesting that it's happening during the historic Hope & Change administration. This will undermine the Obama legacy, which is pretty ironic given how many of the protesters support expediting Obama's agenda.

You are foolish if you think these actions will hurt Obama. They hurt the working class who suffer from loss of work. OWS is mainly about peaceful demonstrations, but there are elements in Oakland that are just taking advantage of the situation, and their actions don't affect the "1%" at all, they only hurt the 99%. Even some of the legitimate protestors in Oakland do not like how these thugs are taking over the movement and becoming violent and destroying property. I myself am a small business owner and a strong supporter of Ron Paul, and my company imports products from the Philippines that comes through that port. Nothing good will come from these kinds of actions. If anything, it will give the government even more reasons to exert more control over the people. Real change occurs in the ballot box.

[hazek]

Did they hang a "Mission accomplished!" banner as well? :)

[specsaregood]

The media hasn't really touched the violence that happened today. I have friends in Oakland. A vocal minority of the protesters smashed businesses including local banks but also a bunch of restaurants and a convenience store. Whole Foods was lotted and apparently looked like a war zone.

Later in the evening after most of the protesters left police clashed with the remaining protesters, fired tear gas etc... good times.

The Oakland Mayor Jean Quan is basically stuck in between the protesters who want her out because of the violence and between the business owners in Oakland who want her out because she has not protected their businesses and has allowed commerce to be disrupted. She is toast.

Somebody else here posted a video where they got video evidence of a number of cops in plainclothes in the crowd. spliced in with video of those exact same "protestors" later in police uniforms. I wonder if they were part of that vocal minority...

[Danke]

Real change occurs in the ballot box.

lol

[SL89]

Somebody else here posted a video where they got video evidence of a number of cops in plainclothes in the crowd. spliced in with video of those exact same "protestors" later in police uniforms. I wonder if they were part of that vocal minority...

Nothing would surprise me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VrvMzqopHH0

[moostraks]

lol

:( I lol'd as well...

[klamath]

Physically shutting down a shipping port is an act of war just like blockading an foreign country is an act of war. It is funny how the basic premise of RP's philosophy is ignored here in that non intervention applys on the small scale as well as the large.

[specsaregood]

Physically shutting down a shipping port is an act of war just like blockading an foreign country is an act of war. It is funny how the basic premise of RP's philosophy is ignored here in that non intervention applys on the small scale as well as the large.

Of course they only did it during the evening hours; and I'd wager the longshoreman's union gave the ok to it.

[jtstellar]

Strikes are extremely effective because they force spoilage and inefficiency. They threaten the GDP of this country and is an impact EVERYONE feels. It weakens GDP numbers, delays shipments, can cost jobs, and is a direct middle finger to authority in the US -- it signifies they're willing to be destructive to meet their goal. They're signaling that life now is too bad to continue without change. That's very serious, and this may just be the first of larger, longer, more consequential strikes and blockades. Action like this will demand dramatic response by authorities, for better or worse. Kind of refreshing to see, and interesting that it's happening during the historic Hope & Change administration. This will undermine the Obama legacy, which is pretty ironic given how many of the protesters support expediting Obama's agenda.


shutting down ordinary people's daily lives is a middle finger to authorities who are already suppressing them? those shipments aren't banker's cash. it's ordinary 10, 20 dollar daily products people use to sustain their daily already miserable lives. are you some middle schooler dreaming of fighting world evils with super power?

if some burglar came in and shot your mother and told you 'blame obama', would you pick up a shot gun, hop in a taxi and head straight to white house or would you aim right at him and blow his head off? i feel dumber after reading this post.

[pcosmar]

i feel dumber after reading this post.
It's called "brain-lock". Common affect of the inability to deal with reality.

Strikes are and have been very effective. And before you go all "communist takeover" on this,,, we have had a socialist country since the early 1900s. The Republicans are the Trotsky wing and Democrats the Marxist wing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Teamsters_Strike_of_1934
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_West_Coast_waterfront_strike

Seems like they were effective.

[Created4]

:( I lol'd as well...

So you don't think the Kentucky voters putting Rand Paul into the Senate, for example, brought about more good than anything OWS is doing?

[Created4]

Of course they only did it during the evening hours; and I'd wager the longshoreman's union gave the ok to it.

The riots in downtown Oakland happened in the evening, not the shutting down of the port. So your facts are wrong, as is your assumption that the longshoreman's union gave the ok.

[Created4]

Strikes are and have been very effective.

Seems like they were effective.

This wasn't a strike. Not even close. People who wanted to work were unable to, and the people preventing them from working were not fellow laborers. That is not a strike. Effective? Effective in what exactly?

[specsaregood]

The riots in downtown Oakland happened in the evening, not the shutting down of the port. So your facts are wrong, as is your assumption that the longshoreman's union gave the ok.

Uhm its from the article in the OP. So it is their facts that are wrong IF you are correct.
from the OP article:


Occupy Wall Street protesters have declared victory after shutting down evening operations at one of the nation's busiest shipping ports and begun leaving the area.


do you have information to post disputing the article's claims?

[Todd]

:( I lol'd as well...

Me three.

[Acala]

shutting down ordinary people's daily lives is a middle finger to authorities who are already suppressing them? those shipments aren't banker's cash. it's ordinary 10, 20 dollar daily products people use to sustain their daily already miserable lives. are you some middle schooler dreaming of fighting world evils with super power?

if some burglar came in and shot your mother and told you 'blame obama', would you pick up a shot gun, hop in a taxi and head straight to white house or would you aim right at him and blow his head off? i feel dumber after reading this post.

I've got some bad news for you: things cannot go on like they have been. For a myriad of reasons. There WILL be change. It will be radical and there will be violence (hopefully not much). The only question is what will the change bring?

Many of these OWS folks seem to have gotten the message that Lord Acton sent so long ago: "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks." They have, at least to some extent, groped their way near to the core of corruption - that den of thieves and vipers.

And with the banks about ready to start folding up like cheap lawn chairs under the weight of the Euro debt debacle, the timing just might be perfect. The last TARP bailout brought enormous vocal opposition from the public. Think what a much BIGGER bank bailout will lead to right now with OWS already on the move in opposition to the banks. You just might see some REAL action.

Even if some are misguided and even if some are just plain wrong, I applaud their action. And my advice is that the defenders of liberty join in and try to educate and be part of the change. I compiled some quotes of Lord Acton, printed them up, and am planning on taking them out to Occupy Tucson today or tonight. I suspect they have plenty of time for reading. I may find other ways to help them.

[klamath]

Uhm its from the article in the OP. So it is their facts that are wrong IF you are correct.
from the OP article:


do you have information to post disputing the article's claims?
well actually it defeats your whole point in that it didn't cause any damage. It shut the operation of the port down. I suspect the port runs 24 hours a day. Whether the unions gave them the go ahead or not has nothing to do with it. Did the owners of the port? The union workers are there to do a job they are paid to do. They have no authority to let unauthorized traspass.

[klamath]

I've got some bad news for you: things cannot go on like they have been. For a myriad of reasons. There WILL be change. It will be radical and there will be violence (hopefully not much). The only question is what will the change bring?

Many of these OWS folks seem to have gotten the message that Lord Acton sent so long ago: "The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks." They have, at least to some extent, groped their way near to the core of corruption - that den of thieves and vipers.

And with the banks about ready to start folding up like cheap lawn chairs under the weight of the Euro debt debacle, the timing just might be perfect. The last TARP bailout brought enormous vocal opposition from the public. Think what a much BIGGER bank bailout will lead to right now with OWS already on the move in opposition to the banks. You just might see some REAL action.

Even if some are misguided and even if some are just plain wrong, I applaud their action. And my advice is that the defenders of liberty join in and try to educate and be part of the change. I compiled some quotes of Lord Acton, printed them up, and am planning on taking them out to Occupy Tucson today or tonight. I suspect they have plenty of time for reading. I may find other ways to help them.
And shortly after the TARP bailout the little guy got a bailout to the tune of 800 billion called a stimulus plan. A seaport is not a bank.

[specsaregood]

well actually it defeats your whole point in that it didn't cause any damage.
Uhm, I don't think I made that point or said anything about damage.



It shut the operation of the port down. I suspect the port runs 24 hours a day. Whether the unions gave them the go ahead or not has nothing to do with it. Did the owners of the port? The union workers are there to do a job they are paid to do. They have no authority to let unauthorized traspass.
Yes, most ports run 24hours a day; but the ports I've lived near were always busiest during the morning/day. That's when you get miles of backed up trucks. The longshoreman there were gonna get paid regardless.

[Travlyr]

:( I lol'd as well...

Count me in on that as well.

[AuH20]

And shortly after the TARP bailout the little guy got a bailout to the tune of 800 billion called a stimulus plan. A seaport is not a bank.

I give up. People are ignorant of past events and the government will come riding in on it's 'white horse' to 'save us' again. Maybe, if we're lucky an alien race will wipe us out before we're subjected to a repeat of these games.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRw-OQYDe2M

[moostraks]

So you don't think the Kentucky voters putting Rand Paul into the Senate, for example, brought about more good than anything OWS is doing?

no...you are talking about winning a skirmish. Furthermore if Rand fails to eat crow with neocons on a regular basis he will be out on his keister. Rand< Ron imo.

The system is corrupt and tptb are not going to go gently. The machine is broken. Delegates are screened and the process is manipulated for the desired outcome of those behind the scenes. I am not paranoid, I witnessed it last time in regards to Paul delegates. The voting boxes are also corrupt. The electronic machines are giving erroneous results. Do you realize this to be true???

[klamath]

Uhm, I don't think I made that point or said anything about damage.


Yes, most ports run 24hours a day; but the ports I've lived near were always busiest during the morning/day. That's when you get miles of backed up trucks. The longshoreman there were gonna get paid regardless.
What about the store owner that didn't have produces on his shelf because these people stopped delivery? What about the food products shippong out of the country. The farmer are not going to get paid if it spoils because somebody shut down shipment.

[Created4]

Uhm its from the article in the OP. So it is their facts that are wrong IF you are correct.
from the OP article:


do you have information to post disputing the article's claims?

All the videos I saw were during daylight hours, and the evening shift begins at 7 p.m. From NYT:

----------------------
About 40 port workers out of 325 did not report for work on Wednesday, said Craig Merrilees, a spokesman for the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, which did not authorize a strike. But by early evening, Mr. Merrilees said, the port was shut down.

“Nothing is coming in or out of here right now" he said.

He said workers were en route for the 7 p.m. shift, but he “highly doubts” they would be able to get through protesters.
-------------------------------

It looks like they started during the day, and then prevented the evening shift from working. But as you can see from the union spokesperson, this was NOT an authorized strike.

[NewRightLibertarian]

It seems like they accomplished their goal of stopping legitimate commerce. Since most of em want the government to have absolute power of the economy and society, it's a job well done for these useful idiots.

[specsaregood]

What about the store owner that didn't have produces on his shelf because these people stopped delivery? What about the food products shippong out of the country. The farmer are not going to get paid if it spoils because somebody shut down shipment.

I'm unsure as to why you are asking me about those people for. But to answer; I'm sure the longshoreman were more than happy to get paid overtime to unload/load the ships as soon as the protest was over. Now if it had carried over into morning when the trucks started showing up in mass; that would have been a mess and I doubt a lot of those truckers would have put up with it.

[Bosco Warden]

This is what these people should have done in the first place, I dont know what these camp out's these people were doing.


What about the store owner that didn't have produces on his shelf because these people stopped delivery? What about the food products shippong out of the country. The farmer are not going to get paid if it spoils because somebody shut down shipment.

You cant make an omelette if you dont break a few eggs. Sad but true. Besides, this is bigger then these few 'disturbances" that your talking about.

and this is still a peaceful protest, and something RP would support.

[Todd]

no...you are talking about winning a skirmish. Furthermore if Rand fails to eat crow with neocons on a regular basis he will be out on his keister. Rand< Ron imo.

The system is corrupt and tptb are not going to go gently. The machine is broken. Delegates are screened and the process is manipulated for the desired outcome of those behind the scenes. I am not paranoid, I witnessed it last time in regards to Paul delegates. The voting boxes are also corrupt. The electronic machines are giving erroneous results. Do you realize this to be true???

When I read that post you site, I thought of this:


One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation - Thomas Brackett Reed

[AuH20]

Recent sign taken from Oakland. Services > free market theory. They're essentially petitioning the slave master for more perks at our expense, instead of focusing on the slave master.

http://www.occupyoakland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Bank.jpg

[Acala]

And shortly after the TARP bailout the little guy got a bailout to the tune of 800 billion called a stimulus plan..

You ARE joking, right?



A seaport is not a bank.

I don't know enough to guess why they chose that target. Probably the longshoremen wanted a day off. But they are feeling their muscles and the banks will get their turn.

Yes, it probably inconvenienced the innocent public but the public at large is going to be involved in this matter sooner or later. The banks are not going to loosen their grip until LARGE numbers of people get really pissed. I would prefer to see that happen in a relatively incremental and hopefully rational manner rather than three days after the grid goes down and a million confused, hungry and thirsty people hit the streets all at once. It will be one way or the other.

[NewRightLibertarian]

This is what these people should have done in the first place, I dont know what these camp out's these people were doing.

You cant make an omelette if you dont break a few eggs. Sad but true. Besides, this is bigger then these few 'disturbances" that your talking about.

and this is still a peaceful protest, and something RP would support.

That's the kind of disgusting line of thinking that leads the U.S. military into interventions throughout the globe. 'Sure some children are brutally murdered, but you cant make an omelette if you dont break a few eggs'

[Created4]

no...you are talking about winning a skirmish. Furthermore if Rand fails to eat crow with neocons on a regular basis he will be out on his keister. Rand< Ron imo.

The system is corrupt and tptb are not going to go gently. The machine is broken. Delegates are screened and the process is manipulated for the desired outcome of those behind the scenes. I am not paranoid, I witnessed it last time in regards to Paul delegates. The voting boxes are also corrupt. The electronic machines are giving erroneous results. Do you realize this to be true???

Hmmm... So to follow your logic, then people "behind the scenes" must have done a good job getting Rand Paul into the Senate, getting Scott Walker into the governor's house in Wisconsin, and all the other "tea party" types that came into office last year. So how do we get "them" behind Ron Paul?

[Acala]

Recent sign taken from Oakland. Services > free market theory. They're essentially petitioning the slave master for more perks at our expense, instead of focusing on the slave master.

http://www.occupyoakland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Bank.jpg

Yup. Plenty of people with bad agendas are trying to co-opt the OWS movement, just like they did with the Tea Party. The wise move is to get involved and try to educate.

[NewRightLibertarian]

Yup. Plenty of people with bad agendas are trying to co-opt the OWS movement, just like they did with the Tea Party. The wise move is to get involved and try to educate.

I say don't waste your time with these 'people'. Focus your time on GOPers to get Ron Paul elected and stay away from this mob. They weren't co-opted; this is what they've been about since day 1 for the most part. They want to destroy capitalism, and get their 'change' from their master Obama.

[pcosmar]

So you don't think the Kentucky voters putting Rand Paul into the Senate, for example, brought about more good than anything OWS is doing?

How has that affected the Central Bankers or the Corrupt shell game going on?

Small private banks are still being wiped out.
Another $700 million gone missing (MF Global)
Bankers still OWN both parties.

Perhaps you don't understand the purpose of these protests.

[pcosmar]

They weren't co-opted; this is what they've been about since day 1 for the most part. They want to destroy capitalism, and get their 'change' from their master Obama.

BULLSHIT,

The Federal Reserve, and their corrupt connections on Wall street and in Wash DC are still the purpose of these protests.

[Brian4Liberty]

And shortly after the TARP bailout the little guy got a bailout to the tune of 800 billion called a stimulus plan.


You ARE joking, right?


Probably not. He likes to make sure that the little people get their fair share of the blame. Maybe he works for Goldman Sachs. ;)

To be fair, the Stimulus was marketed and sold as something to help the little people. "Shovel ready jobs" for the mundanes. Of course the money went directly to Obama's crony corporatist buddies, and didn't create any new jobs at all. Some percentage of the OWS people are mad that they didn't get any of that money, and their brilliant solution is to have Obama do it again, but to implausibly and miraculously make that money go to them this time. They want their free money, just like Wall St gets!

[Created4]

How has that affected the Central Bankers or the Corrupt shell game going on?

AUDIT THE FED! It's no longer a lone voice....


Perhaps you don't understand the purpose of these protests.

Perhaps you don't:


Recent sign taken from Oakland. Services > free market theory. They're essentially petitioning the slave master for more perks at our expense, instead of focusing on the slave master.

http://www.occupyoakland.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Bank.jpg

[klamath]

You ARE joking, right?



I don't know enough to guess why they chose that target. Probably the longshoremen wanted a day off. But they are feeling their muscles and the banks will get their turn.

Yes, it probably inconvenienced the innocent public but the public at large is going to be involved in this matter sooner or later. The banks are not going to loosen their grip until LARGE numbers of people get really pissed. I would prefer to see that happen in a relatively incremental and hopefully rational manner rather than three days after the grid goes down and a million confused, hungry and thirsty people hit the streets all at once. It will be one way or the other.

No I am not joking. Million of little guys have been and are still being bailed out. How many times has unemployment been extended. How many good vehicles got turned in with cash for clunkers and the little guy got subsidized with a new car. How many milion people took second and third morgages to buy boats, worldwide vacations, latte, and other toys. They spent the money and recieved the benefit of money they NEVER earned. Then they cried when their house get forclosed on after they had the benefit of living in it and making a huge amount more money off that house than they EVER paid. No every layer of society bears the blame for the downfall. And those thousands of hungry people are going to go for that guys little survival place he built up for the collaspe and they are going to kill and rape his family for their own good. In case you never read it you might want to read the mans account of what happened to those that lived out from the cities when the SHTF in Argentina..

[Bosco Warden]

I say don't waste your time with these 'people'. Focus your time on GOPers to get Ron Paul elected and stay away from this mob. They weren't co-opted; this is what they've been about since day 1 for the most part. They want to destroy capitalism, and get their 'change' from their master Obama.

This is a funny statement, means you dont understand how the FED works, destroy capitalism? where is that at? This country hasnt seen capitalism in a very long time, free markets, whats that? same thing, MIA, long time. I actually disagree with everything you said here, the GOPer's have their heads in the ass. waste of time, IMHO, but you can know that already, dont you? youre a troll.

Thanks for the "enlightenment"

Cheers.

I say shut down all the ports, bring the commerce to a stand still.

who actually knows what the Declaration of independence says? Stand up and be counted, and sit down and STFU.

“That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government”

[NewRightLibertarian]

BULLSHIT,

The Federal Reserve, and their corrupt connections on Wall street and in Wash DC are still the purpose of these protests.

I wish, but I really think you're projecting what you want the protests to be onto the movement.



This is a funny statement, means you dont understand how the FED works, destroy capitalism? where is that at? This country hasnt seen capitalism in a very long time, free markets, whats that? same thing, MIA, long time. I actually disagree with everything you said here, the GOPer's have their heads in the ass. waste of time, IMHO, but you can know that already, dont you? youre a troll.

It's pathetic that people like you would rather support this unruly mob than try to get Ron Paul elected. Perhaps you're at the wrong forum. Maybe you should join a leftist forum where you and your ilk can talk about how great it is to ruin legitimate commerce for 'solidarity' and 'social justice' and 'democracy'

[klamath]

Because I get a little tired of seeing people try and pass all the blame to one group or the other thinking it will solve their problems. Yeaw I work for Goldman Sachs. Why don't you come up and vist the goldman sachs brances here in northern CA. They are all over here you know.

Probably not. He likes to make sure that the little people get their fair share of the blame. Maybe he works for Goldman Sachs. ;)

To be fair, the Stimulus was marketed and sold as something to help the little people. "Shovel ready jobs" for the mundanes. Of course the money went directly to Obama's crony corporatist buddies, and didn't create any new jobs at all. Some percentage of the OWS people are mad that they didn't get any of that money, and their brilliant solution is to have Obama do it again, but to implausibly and miraculously make that money go to them this time. They want their free money, just like Wall St gets!

[Bosco Warden]

It's pathetic that people like you would rather support this unruly mob than try to get Ron Paul elected. Perhaps you're at the wrong forum. Maybe you should join a leftist forum where you and your ilk can talk about how great it is to ruin legitimate business for 'solidarity' and 'social justice' and 'democracy'

Until we end the FED, its all just more bullshit, its you that don't seem to "get it" that message it still there, its you that are falling for the "banana in the tail pipe" again. I'm dont want to keep rearranging the furniture on the Titanic year are 4 years, like I posted, its time to change out DC, one way or the other. Sit on the side lines and bitch, or get involved. You can be part of the message, or.......

“That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government”

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j338/Americasforum/ron-paul-end-the-fed-5x3-1.jpg

[NewRightLibertarian]

Until we end the FED, its all just more bullshit, its you that don't seem to "get it" that message it still there, its you that are falling for the "banana in the tail pipe" again. I'm dont want to keep rearranging the furniture on the Titanic year are 4 years, like I posted, its time to change out DC, one way or the other. Sit on the side lines and bitch, or get involved. You can be part of the message, or.......

Yeah, I'm not going to join an anti-capitalist mob just because it's 'time to change out DC'. I'm in the movements that wish to end the Federal Reserve, and I am not convinced that Occupy is one of them (even though there are certainly some End the Fed people involved in it).

[Brian4Liberty]

Because I get a little tired of seeing people try and pass all the blame to one group or the other thinking it will solve their problems. Yeaw I work for Goldman Sachs. Why don't you come up and vist the goldman sachs brances here in northern CA. They are all over here you know.

I'll be in Lincoln later today, so I'll keep on eye out. Of course Goldman Sachs social media operatives usually telecommute, so no buildings are required.

[AuH20]

No I am not joking. Million of little guys have been and are still being bailed out. How many times has unemployment been extended. How many good vehicles got turned in with cash for clunkers and the little guy got subsidized with a new car. How many milion people took second and third morgages to buy boats, worldwide vacations, latte, and other toys. They spent the money and recieved the benefit of money they NEVER earned. Then they cried when their house get forclosed on after they had the benefit of living in it and making a huge amount more money off that house than they EVER paid. No every layer of society bears the blame for the downfall. And those thousands of hungry people are going to go for that guys little survival place he built up for the collaspe and they are going to kill and rape his family for their own good. In case you never read it you might want to read the mans account of what happened to those that lived out from the cities when the SHTF in Argentina..

I think many of them sleep easier at night ignoring their active participation in this corrupt system. Give many of these folks the power of the banksters and they will act in a similar manner if not worse.

[Jingles]

So breaking/destroying property is victory?

[moostraks]

Hmmm... So to follow your logic, then people "behind the scenes" must have done a good job getting Rand Paul into the Senate, getting Scott Walker into the governor's house in Wisconsin, and all the other "tea party" types that came into office last year. So how do we get "them" behind Ron Paul?

I don't think all the tea party types were an improvement. Under your terms of effective changes Kasich would be an improvement and he is far from that imo. Change the faces, change the party, they are still serving the same master despite which side of the red/blue team they are on. As for the few who are decent they are allowed to slip through the cracks, a concession prize of sorts. People like you will go chasing ghosts believing they have effected change through the ballot box, while the paradigm does not change one wit.

Tptb don't need to rig every poll to achieve what they want nor does every politician have to be corrupted. All you need is strategic placement of specific individuals or machines who are controlled. Then you use herd mentality to corral the rest. Educate people to be individuals, enlighten them to how they are being used, and you break the power of control. I advocate voting and political participation, and being verbal about your choices so when people start to come together and realize that the votes do not represent their experiences they will see the men behind the curtain for who they are and from where the corruption stems. I do not honestly expect a real result from our current system.

I watched what they did by changing the rules of order during the delegate process and the screening process to exclude those who would not tote the water. My experience was not an exclusive one, but one that played out in numerous locations. You are not going to get "them" behind Ron Paul. The best hope is that more people feel enough pain, and get disgusted enough and are vocal and begin to realize what is going on. So the real wins are not to be seen for some time in my estimation, but you have to start somewhere.

[nbhadja]

Why don't they surround a bank and refuse to let customers in instead of picking on a random shipping place?

[TheDrakeMan]

They have no goals, vision, or mission. I don't see how they can have 'victory' over anything when no one knows what they stand for besides "greed is bad!"

[Bosco Warden]

Yeah, I'm not going to join an anti-capitalist mob just because it's 'time to change out DC'. I'm in the movements that wish to end the Federal Reserve, and I am not convinced that Occupy is one of them (even though there are certainly some End the Fed people involved in it).

You dont get it, the media is spinning this to be portrayed as a socialist movement, what about this group, would you join them?

The OWS message can be whatever YOU want it to be, is my point. There is no one single message. The fact that Americans are doing SOMETHING is encouraging, period.

http://cchronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/tea_party091.jpg

[klamath]

I'll be in Lincoln later today, so I'll keep on eye out. Of course Goldman Sachs social media operatives usually telecommute, so no buildings are required.

Are you really trying to start a personal fight with me? I have nothing to do with any bank and don't support goldman Sachs or any of the other banks that were bailed out. I just don't happen to say they are the cause of ALL the problems.

[brandon]

They have nothing to directly gain from this, and it puts them at risk of serious harm, disrupts production, and worsens their status if they lose (and possibly if they "win," depending on what they win).

Tho objectivist in me has trouble accepting that anyone ever does anything for purely altruistic reasons. I think they have a lot to gain. In the short term they're building their egos, patting themselves on the back, enjoying a sense of community, getting an adrenaline rush, and putting some meaning in their empty lives. In the long run they're hoping for more free stuff.

Edit: Ooops didn't realize this thread was 6 pages long

[pcosmar]

I wish, but I really think you're projecting what you want the protests to be onto the movement.


Perhaps you should educate yourself, instead of parroting the media spin.
http://ampedstatus.org/network/original-99platform/
Present updated,,
http://ampedstatus.org/network/about/


As long as the economy and government are rigged by the top economic 0.1%, we will all lose.

As a broad-based network representing people across the political spectrum, we are working together to reach common ground and fight for pivotal political reforms. Members of this social network are part a decentralized movement that has two goals:

1) End the System of Political Bribery
2) Break Up the “Too Big To Fail” Banks and the Federal Reserve

And YES, there are socialists involved. That is a reality of the world we live in.
This country has been run as a socialist democracy since the 1900s. Long before I was born.

Until the Bankers are dealt with there is NO HOPE of restoring the Constitution.
I am willing to overlook some to gain allies in the larger fight.

[moostraks]

When I read that post you site, I thought of this:


One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation - Thomas Brackett Reed

;)

[dannno]

Are you really trying to start a personal fight with me? I have nothing to do with any bank and don't support goldman Sachs or any of the other banks that were bailed out. I just don't happen to say they are the cause of ALL the problems.

So the banks take someone's house and in return the person gets a half-eaten muffin and a latte, that sounds pretty fair :rolleyes:

[NewRightLibertarian]

You dont get it, the media is spinning this to be portrayed as a socialist movement, what about this group, would you join them?

The mainstream media is doing all they can to promote it as some type of great cause. I'm basing my opinions off of these people in their own words. I wouldn't join them because I don't share in their erroneous beliefs.


The OWS message can be whatever YOU want it to be, is my point. There is no one single message. The fact that Americans are doing SOMETHING is encouraging, period.

Nah, it isn't because the cause they are rallying behind would only give more power to the supposed to be fighting. They're Obama's foot soldiers, nothing more.


Perhaps you should educate yourself, instead of parroting the media spin.
http://ampedstatus.org/network/original-99platform/
Present updated,,
http://ampedstatus.org/network/about/

It's not media spin when it these people caught in their own words. Some website doesn't change the attitude of the large majority of these protesters.

[Brian4Liberty]

Are you really trying to start a personal fight with me? I have nothing to do with any bank and don't support goldman Sachs or any of the other banks that were bailed out. I just don't happen to say they are the cause of ALL the problems.

Lol! No, just joking. Forgot the required emoticon. I'm 99% sure you are not working for Goldman Sachs. ;)

[AuH20]

So the banks take someone's house and in return the person gets a half-eaten muffin and a latte, that sounds pretty fair :rolleyes:

Because some ignoramus didn't want to read the fine print and refused to acknowledge that a variable interest rate could blow up in their faces down the line? I have no sympathy for walking and talking prey who can't process basic arithmetic.

[Acala]

Perhaps you should educate yourself, instead of parroting the media spin.
http://ampedstatus.org/network/original-99platform/
Present updated,,
http://ampedstatus.org/network/about/



And YES, there are socialists involved. That is a reality of the world we live in.
This country has been run as a socialist democracy since the 1900s. Long before I was born.

Until the Bankers are dealt with there is NO HOPE of restoring the Constitution.
I am willing to overlook some to gain allies in the larger fight.

Yup.

It is the job of the media to create the impression that OWS is a bunch of lazy socialists out to take YOUR freedom just like it was the media's job to create the impression that the Tea Party was a racist, war-mongering bunch of rednecks.

It is absolutely imperative to the power elite that the people never recognize their common ground and turn as one on the real enemy. To this end they use every oportunity and every trick to keep the people fighting among themselves and blaming each other.

So it is critical that OWS be marginalized as socialist parsites because the VERY, VERY last thing the power elite wants is for the true Tea Party people to get together with the OWS folks. And since that seems to me to be that very last thing the den of thieves and vipers want, it must be a good idea.

Those people have a legitimate complaint. All they need is to be educated as to the real cause and the real solution. And the clear focus they have on the banks suggests they are half way there.

[dannno]

Because some ignoramus didn't want to read the fine print and refused to acknowledge that a variable interest rate could blow up in their faces down the line? I have no sympathy for walking and talking prey who can't process basic arithmetic.

It takes two to make a contract, why were banks loaning money to people they knew couldn't pay it back? Doesn't that seem a bit predatory?

Also, you're blaming the victims, as Ron Paul likes to say.

[Bosco Warden]

The mainstream media is doing all they can to promote it as some type of great cause. I'm basing my opinions off of these people in their own words. I wouldn't join them because I don't share in their erroneous beliefs.
Nah, it isn't because the cause they are rallying behind would only give more power to the supposed to be fighting. They're Obama's foot soldiers, nothing more.
It's not media spin when it these people caught in their own words. Some website doesn't change the attitude of the large majority of these protesters.

I knew i was right the first time about you. I've been doing this a long time.

Dude, let me try a different angle, we have a Marxist in chief at the CiC now right? What message would you put on the idiot box to try and control the masses as to not try and stir this up even more to maybe even violence?

The root of this has always been the FED, you think they are going to show this as the message????, dude, its the money machine, they own the media. this is simple logic, if you dont get this, then youre supporting the wrong candidate. Ron Paul has been after the FED for 40 years.

You cant have a free market, and a capitalist system when the bank is privately owned, and controlled in DC. Its impossible. There is nothing to discuss.

[klamath]

So the banks take someone's house and in return the person gets a half-eaten muffin and a latte, that sounds pretty fair :rolleyes:

Well if you paid 20 to 200 grand of barrowed money for a half eatten muffin and latte I can't help you.

[Acala]

Because some ignoramus didn't want to read the fine print and refused to acknowledge that a variable interest rate could blow up in their faces down the line? I have no sympathy for walking and talking prey who can't process basic arithmetic.

The subprime lending problem, which was driven INTENTIONALLY by the Fed's loose money policy, was a relatively minor problem that would have taken care of itself. It was the high-stakes derivative gambling by the investment banks on top of the subprime assets that leveraged the minor problem into a world-shaking disaster. And it was the BANKS that got their losses covered by the taxpayers. So, while I think the "little" people who make bad financial decisions should suffer the consequences, it is not those people who are destroying the world. It is Hank and Tim and Ben and JP Morgan and B of A, etc.

[Brian4Liberty]

Because some ignoramus didn't want to read the fine print and refused to acknowledge that a variable interest rate could blow up in their faces down the line? I have no sympathy for walking and talking prey who can't process basic arithmetic.

I have a friend who is a lawyer and speaks fluent Spanish. He sometimes does pro bono work here in California. In most of his cases, he is trying to help people who could not read English, but the money lender had no problem lending to them and having them sign the papers (written in English). Many of these people had equity in houses, and in essence, everything was stolen from them when they were kicked out of their homes.

[AuH20]

It takes two to make a contract, why were banks loaning money to people they knew couldn't pay it back? Doesn't that seem a bit predatory?

Also, you're blaming the victims, as Ron Paul likes to say.

If someone comes to your door and proceeds to offer you muffins littered with razor blades, do you immediately gobble them down without inspecting it? Many of these folks were just as greedy as the mortgage realtors offering them these loans. Victim is a very kind term, when no one put a gun to their head. I had an opportunity to purchase a home but declined because I felt the market was over-valued and it still is.

[Brian4Liberty]

Whoops. Thread derail...

[Created4]

I don't think all the tea party types were an improvement. Under your terms of effective changes Kasich would be an improvement and he is far from that imo. Change the faces, change the party, they are still serving the same master despite which side of the red/blue team they are on. As for the few who are decent they are allowed to slip through the cracks, a concession prize of sorts. People like you will go chasing ghosts believing they have effected change through the ballot box, while the paradigm does not change one wit.

You are setting up a straw man to knock down. I don't support the "tea party" which is why I put it into quotes. The term was hijacked. Your logic fails. The original premise was that OWS protests are more effective than voting because "they" control the electoral process. I gave clear instances where this logic has failed, and really Scott Walker is an even better example than Rand Paul, because Wisconsin is so divisive and the corporate interests and unions there are so strong that if they could have stopped his election, they surely would have. They never would have "allowed him to slip through the cracks." They are doing everything in their power now to get him recalled. To say "As for the few who are decent they are allowed to slip through the cracks, a concession prize of sorts." is pure speculation and fantasy.

[NewRightLibertarian]

I knew i was right the first time about you. I've been doing this a long time.

For someone who has been 'doing this a long time', you don't seem to have become much of a debater as you can barely write an intelligible sentence.


Dude, let me try a different angle, we have a Marxist in chief at the CiC now right? What message would you put on the idiot box to try and control the masses as to not try and stir this up even more to maybe even violence?

The root of this has always been the FED, you think they are going to show this as the message????, dude, its the money machine, they own the media. this is simple logic, if you dont get this, then youre supporting the wrong candidate. Ron Paul has been after the FED for 40 years.

You cant have a free market, and a capitalist system when the bank is privately owned, and controlled in DC. Its impossible. There is nothing to discuss.

What are you even talking about? Why are you digressing into something that has nothing to do with the occupy protests? They aren't protesting at the Fed, they're at Wall Street.

[Bosco Warden]

For someone who has been 'doing this a long time', you don't seem to have become much of a debater as you can barely write an intelligible sentence.


Oops, got me there, or is it their, or they're? shit!!



What are you even talking about? Why are you digressing into something that has nothing to do with the occupy protests? They aren't protesting at the Fed, they're at Wall Street.

Doesnt matter, you still say youre a RP supporter and dont even know the RP's whole platform is based off the constitution and ending the FED. So there, their, and they're, dipshit.

[NewRightLibertarian]

Doesnt matter, you still say youre a RP supporter and dont even know the RP's whole platform is based off the constitution and ending the FED. So there, their, and they're, dipshit.

Whatever you say. I can hardly make sense of your ramblings.

[klamath]

Lol! No, just joking. Forgot the required emoticon. I'm 99% sure you are not working for Goldman Sachs. ;)
To slur someone by saying they work for Goldman sachs around here is about like saying you Go*dam*ed, M*, sob, yellow dog, scum sucking low down !@#$% piece of horsecr*p! :D:D:D:D

[moostraks]

You are setting up a straw man to knock down. I don't support the "tea party" which is why I put it into quotes. The term was hijacked. Your logic fails. The original premise was that OWS protests are more effective than voting because "they" control the electoral process. I gave clear instances where this logic has failed, and really Scott Walker is an even better example than Rand Paul, because Wisconsin is so divisive and the corporate interests and unions there are so strong that if they could have stopped his election, they surely would have. They never would have "allowed him to slip through the cracks." They are doing everything in their power now to get him recalled. To say "As for the few who are decent they are allowed to slip through the cracks, a concession prize of sorts." is pure speculation and fantasy.

Scott Walker is as much a divisive creature as Kasich, he is not progress from what I hear. Chaos is the name of the game right now. Watch over here at this pretty little protest while we are busy widening the police state. Union busting allows corporatism to run rampant. I'm not for closed shops but I am for unions as a countermeasure for corporatism. As for what is being argued you think that the ballot box is getting us somewhere, considering the number of people who disagree with you, it is your argument that fails. I lived the lie and the stories are on the net that validate my experiences. You seem to be the one living in fantasies and postulating.

Still trying to figure out what strawman argument you seem to think was formulated. You claimed the ballot box was bringing effective change due to tea party types, and I am trying to figure out what has been improved since the "change" occurred. Someone else asked you the same question...So again, what has the tea party done that has effectively changed the scheme of things?

[angelatc]

Uhm, I don't think I made that point or said anything about damage.


Yes, most ports run 24hours a day; but the ports I've lived near were always busiest during the morning/day. That's when you get miles of backed up trucks. The longshoreman there were gonna get paid regardless.

The article linked above says that the report of the shipping port shut down were false.

[angelatc]

How has that affected the Central Bankers or the Corrupt shell game going on?

Small private banks are still being wiped out.
Another $700 million gone missing (MF Global)
Bankers still OWN both parties.

Perhaps you don't understand the purpose of these protests.

Perhaps we don't understand how trashing Whole Foods equates to a demonstration against corruption in government? Go figure.

[angelatc]

So the banks take someone's house and in return the person gets a half-eaten muffin and a latte, that sounds pretty fair :rolleyes:

Socialistic bullshit. Demanding free stuff, and demanding the government use force to give it to us. It's not "their" house until they pay for it.

[Bosco Warden]

Socialistic bullshit. Demanding free stuff, and demanding the government use force to give it to us. It's not "their" house until they pay for it.

Its not the banks house if they dont have possession of the title either. What are you talking about anyways...:o

[pcosmar]

Perhaps we don't understand how trashing Whole Foods equates to a demonstration against corruption in government? Go figure.

Perhaps you missed the condemnation of those acts. Condemned BY the protesters.
Or the volunteers that are cleaning it up.
Discussions are ongoing to prevent this,, but idiots and Provocateurs still happen.

[Anti Federalist]

Real change occurs in the ballot box.


lol


:( I lol'd as well...


Me three.


Count me in on that as well.

Me four...

[Created4]

Considering the number of people who disagree with you, it is your argument that fails.

Ah, I see now. Logic is dependent on popularity, not the strength of the premises and whether they are true or not.


You claimed the ballot box was bringing effective change due to tea party types, and I am trying to figure out what has been improved since the "change" occurred.

Never said that. Go back and read what I wrote.

My premise: Shutting down the port of Oakland hurts the 99% and not the 1%, and does not bring about any real change. Participating in the democratic process by voting can bring about more change than OWS. (That is the reason I spend time on these forums. To try and get Ron Paul elected, not participate and defend OWS.)

That's my premise, and so far you are the only one to offer any kind of response that anyone could debate, other than the others who just type in "LOL."

Your premise: It doesn't matter what you do in the democratic process, because "they" control it and decide who wins.

I offered instances where this logic fails, by mentioning Rand Paul and Scott Walker, among "tea party" types who were recently voted in, that obviously show where your logic fails. It was not an endorsement of the "tea party" since that label has no specific meaning, nor to suggest that the "tea party" has accomplished anything. I simply offered these two and other "tea party" types that won elections last year as examples of where your logic fails. Someone else asked how electing Rand Paul to the Senate dealt with the corruption of the banks, and I mentioned that it was another advocate for auditing the Fed.

Again, if "they" controlled the entire election process as you claim, Rand Paul and Scott Walker would never been "allowed" to be elected, and this is proven best in Wisconsin where an all out war is being observed in the effort to recall him. Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to have "not allowed" him to be elected in the first place? Again, your logic fails. I hope others will see that, and continue to participate and support Ron Paul's election.

[jtstellar]

chat away

all i know is if they destroy common goods other middle class citizens use to sustain their daily lives, the police can freely open fire on them with blood all over the street and i wouldn't give a fuck for one minute. in fact if they come in my house or touch my uncle's business, i would be more than happy to take it upon myself.

'banks banks banks banks' can you get more specific? executives of these banks? then name them all by names pls. their name is 'banks?' share holders of these banks? employees? janitors? bank who? every person working at a bank is called 'a bank'?

[dannno]

Socialistic bullshit. Demanding free stuff, and demanding the government use force to give it to us. It's not "their" house until they pay for it.

So the bank prints money out of thin air and when the borrower stops paying the bank steals the house from everybody else, does that make it right?

I actually think the person who has been making payments on the house is more entitled to it than the bank who printed the money out of thin air.

[pcosmar]

chat away


'banks banks banks banks' can you get more specific? executives of these banks? then name them all by names pls. their name is 'banks?' share holders of these banks? employees? janitors? bank who? every person working at a bank is called 'a bank'?

Not that I think you will listen, or that you could comprehend.. But it's worth a try.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2kiprZTG0g

see Part 2 as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0diluornKfE

This also lays it out fairly well,,, from another source.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPWH5TlbloU

[heavenlyboy34]

Me four...
me 5 lolz

[moostraks]

Ah, I see now. Logic is dependent on popularity, not the strength of the premises and whether they are true or not.



Never said that. Go back and read what I wrote.

My premise: Shutting down the port of Oakland hurts the 99% and not the 1%, and does not bring about any real change. Participating in the democratic process by voting can bring about more change than OWS. (That is the reason I spend time on these forums. To try and get Ron Paul elected, not participate and defend OWS.)

That's my premise, and so far you are the only one to offer any kind of response that anyone could debate, other than the others who just type in "LOL."

Your premise: It doesn't matter what you do in the democratic process, because "they" control it and decide who wins.

I offered instances where this logic fails, by mentioning Rand Paul and Scott Walker, among "tea party" types who were recently voted in, that obviously show where your logic fails. It was not an endorsement of the "tea party" since that label has no specific meaning, nor to suggest that the "tea party" has accomplished anything. I simply offered these two and other "tea party" types that won elections last year as examples of where your logic fails. Someone else asked how electing Rand Paul to the Senate dealt with the corruption of the banks, and I mentioned that it was another advocate for auditing the Fed.

Again, if "they" controlled the entire election process as you claim, Rand Paul and Scott Walker would never been "allowed" to be elected, and this is proven best in Wisconsin where an all out war is being observed in the effort to recall him. Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to have "not allowed" him to be elected in the first place? Again, your logic fails. I hope others will see that, and continue to participate and support Ron Paul's election.

They don't control all but enough so as to render the process a farce. Walker was not an improvement from what I have read, on Rand I am neutral at best over, but really think he sold out some or has views contrary to which I would support. You apparently are dismissing the experiences of many who went through the delegate process and saw how it was manipulated for a predetermined outcome. It doesn't matter if you win a handful of decent people if the key figures are corrupted and enough of the system is controlled. You are naive.

I am not defending or maligning OWS. I have no direct experiences for which to form an opinion. but I know b.s. when it comes to voting makes a difference because I got my t-shirt in the last round. I also said to have at voting and be loud about it, because the more people who talk and see that their experiences are being marginalized by a crooked system, the sooner we are all on the same page. I suggest you do more than vote, though, and that all should attempt the delegate process. I was in Newt's old district and it was an eye opener for just how crooked things are at even the most entry level. The fact that you think voting is fair is just laughable. You think that politics is played by the rules? Or do you think that save all the backroom dealing for after we have a fair chance to vote them out? lolololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Created4]

They don't control all but enough so as to render the process a farce. Walker was not an improvement from what I have read, on Rand I am neutral at best over, but really think he sold out some or has views contrary to which I would support. You apparently are dismissing the experiences of many who went through the delegate process and saw how it was manipulated for a predetermined outcome. It doesn't matter if you win a handful of decent people if the key figures are corrupted and enough of the system is controlled. You are naive.

I am not defending or maligning OWS. I have no direct experiences for which to form an opinion. but I know b.s. when it comes to voting makes a difference because I got my t-shirt in the last round. I also said to have at voting and be loud about it, because the more people who talk and see that their experiences are being marginalized by a crooked system, the sooner we are all on the same page. I suggest you do more than vote, though, and that all should attempt the delegate process. I was in Newt's old district and it was an eye opener for just how crooked things are at even the most entry level. The fact that you think voting is fair is just laughable. You think that politics is played by the rules? Or do you think that save all the backroom dealing for after we have a fair chance to vote them out? lolololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"The fact that you think voting is fair is just laughable. You think that politics is played by the rules?" Where did I ever say that? Again, setting up straw men to knock down is pointless. I said it was more productive than shutting down the port of Oakland. If you are encouraging people to participate in the voting and delegate process, than I don't see what the point of contention is. We agree more than we disagree.

But to say that Walker is not an improvement over Doyle shows, at least, how lacking you are on understanding Wisconsin politics. He may not be the strict libertarian that Ron Paul is, but he is a definite improvement, particularly on fiscal issues, and the establishment is doing everything they can to get him out of power. The fact that people like him and Rand Paul CAN be elected disproves your premise.

[moostraks]

Real change occurs in the ballot box.


:( I lol'd as well...


Hmmm... So to follow your logic, then people "behind the scenes" must have done a good job getting Rand Paul into the Senate, getting Scott Walker into the governor's house in Wisconsin, and all the other "tea party" types that came into office last year. So how do we get "them" behind Ron Paul?


I don't think all the tea party types were an improvement. Under your terms of effective changes Kasich would be an improvement and he is far from that imo. Change the faces, change the party, they are still serving the same master despite which side of the red/blue team they are on. As for the few who are decent they are allowed to slip through the cracks, a concession prize of sorts. People like you will go chasing ghosts believing they have effected change through the ballot box, while the paradigm does not change one wit.

Tptb don't need to rig every poll to achieve what they want nor does every politician have to be corrupted. All you need is strategic placement of specific individuals or machines who are controlled. Then you use herd mentality to corral the rest. Educate people to be individuals, enlighten them to how they are being used, and you break the power of control. I advocate voting and political participation, and being verbal about your choices so when people start to come together and realize that the votes do not represent their experiences they will see the men behind the curtain for who they are and from where the corruption stems. I do not honestly expect a real result from our current system.



You are setting up a straw man to knock down. I don't support the "tea party" which is why I put it into quotes. The term was hijacked. Your logic fails. The original premise was that OWS protests are more effective than voting because "they" control the electoral process. I gave clear instances where this logic has failed, and really Scott Walker is an even better example than Rand Paul, because Wisconsin is so divisive and the corporate interests and unions there are so strong that if they could have stopped his election, they surely would have. They never would have "allowed him to slip through the cracks." They are doing everything in their power now to get him recalled. To say "As for the few who are decent they are allowed to slip through the cracks, a concession prize of sorts." is pure speculation and fantasy.


They don't control all but enough so as to render the process a farce. Walker was not an improvement from what I have read, on Rand I am neutral at best over, but really think he sold out some or has views contrary to which I would support. You apparently are dismissing the experiences of many who went through the delegate process and saw how it was manipulated for a predetermined outcome. It doesn't matter if you win a handful of decent people if the key figures are corrupted and enough of the system is controlled. You are naive.

I am not defending or maligning OWS. I have no direct experiences for which to form an opinion. but I know b.s. when it comes to voting makes a difference because I got my t-shirt in the last round. I also said to have at voting and be loud about it, because the more people who talk and see that their experiences are being marginalized by a crooked system, the sooner we are all on the same page. I suggest you do more than vote, though, and that all should attempt the delegate process. I was in Newt's old district and it was an eye opener for just how crooked things are at even the most entry level. The fact that you think voting is fair is just laughable. You think that politics is played by the rules? Or do you think that save all the backroom dealing for after we have a fair chance to vote them out? lolololololololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"The fact that you think voting is fair is just laughable. You think that politics is played by the rules?" Where did I ever say that? Again, setting up straw men to knock down is pointless. I said it was more productive than shutting down the port of Oakland. If you are encouraging people to participate in the voting and delegate process, than I don't see what the point of contention is. We agree more than we disagree.

But to say that Walker is not an improvement over Doyle shows, at least, how lacking you are on understanding Wisconsin politics. He may not be the strict libertarian that Ron Paul is, but he is a definite improvement, particularly on fiscal issues, and the establishment is doing everything they can to get him out of power. The fact that people like him and Rand Paul CAN be elected disproves your premise.

I am cleaning this up so you can read this. First you said real change comes through the ballot box. To which I laughed. To which you claim tea party folks, Walker and Rand were voted in as proof of change. I said they were not change. That if there is any among them who are worthy they are so isolated among the power players that it is a moot point. You were asked for what has been changed other than the faces. You repeat Walker is proof of change. Again I disagreed and said tptb are thriving on the chaos as it gives reason to expand the police state. I also disagree with union busting as it is the check against corporatism imo.

Now if you think real change comes at the ballot box as you said in the beginning, you would be under the naive belief that voting is fair, and the politicians are playing by the rules. Which is why I asked you if you thought the backroom deals start once they are fairly voted in. Do you understand now? I said my experiences told me differently which is why I encourage everyone to get involved in the election process so they can see the corruption first hand. We do not agree on why the ballot box matters because we have two ideas on the results.

As for Walker, who you seem to see as evidence of voter induced change, I am not as concerned with Wisconsin politics as Ohio politics but from what I remember discussing awhile back with some from his area and what I have read he was not real change any more than Kasich is for Ohio. The parties and the faces are changed but the corruption continues. As well the people are not benefiting from the change but well connected individuals to the people put in power sure do.

"Budget Deficit: How can County Executive Scott Walker say that the county budget is balanced when he underfunded the county pension fund by $23 million, raided the county sales tax revenue to pay for general expenses and even raided the extra transportation funds that Governor Doyle provided for mass transit?

Taxes: How can Walker claim that he has frozen taxes when every single budget he has crafted has resulted in deficits? Walker’s Parks Department announced a $2.3 million deficit. Today, the County’s Family Care program announced a $1.8 million deficit. And how can Walker claim to be against taxes when he voted for the ever-increasing indexed gas tax increases. (Recently rolled back by Governor Doyle.)

Property Taxes: How can Walker claim credit for freezing taxes when his vetoes left major holes in the Milwaukee Countys court budget? Yet both Walker and his GOP primary opponent for Governor, Mark Green, know property taxes have actually gone down under Doyle in parts of the state?...

Ethics: How can Scott Walker accuse Governor Doyle of campaign improprieties when Walker himself held a Chicagoland fundraiser sponsored by indicted Bears-Stearns executive Nick Hurtgen? Why did Walker openly violate county ordinances against accepting campaign donations during the budget blackout period? Why would Walker turn around and offer a large no-bid contract to his campaign donors? And why did Walker, after he got caught, only return a small portion of the funds?"

http://www.dirtandseeds.com/scott-walker-corruption-greed-and-cover-ups/

There is more discussion on Walker at the website which questions his record. The above is the most pertinent imo for arguments sake to your claims re:Walker. My premise stands real change is not occurring through the ballot box...

btw...read up on strawman arguments before accusing someone of making such. I am dealing within the confines of the situations you are presenting.

[Vessol]

That's not how political strikes work, and this isn't a traditional strike. This is a Strike - capital S! The beauty of what they're doing is the remarkable amount of passion they're displaying. They have nothing to directly gain from this, and it puts them at risk of serious harm, disrupts production, and worsens their status if they lose (and possibly if they "win," depending on what they win). This is directly assaulting production in the US and using that to force legislators to create change... or at least encourage more heavy-handed protest squashing.

This is like the first shot in a violent revolution. There's not much to gain in shooting folks, and puts you at great risk -- it's a true sacrifice, and it's the first large-scale initiation of force we've seen from OWS. End result may be tragic, and I doubt many of the protesters understand what they're really doing in committing aggression - basically against the US, but this is exciting nonetheless. I didn't think people could be motivated to do stuff like this in the US anymore.

I share both your excitement and dread, Kludge. I didn't expect that these kind of actions were still possible in the United States. Of course it means nothing good, the majority of the OWS movement is negative towards liberty/freedom, but it certainly is crazy.

I honestly expected the OWS movement to die down within a few weeks, but it's alive and getting stronger. Certainly scary to me also. A violent revolution or uprising is NOT conductive to liberty.

[NewRightLibertarian]

I share both your excitement and dread, Kludge. I didn't expect that these kind of actions were still possible in the United States. Of course it means nothing good, the majority of the OWS movement is negative towards liberty/freedom, but it certainly is crazy.

I honestly expected the OWS movement to die down within a few weeks, but it's alive and getting stronger. Certainly scary to me also. A violent revolution or uprising is NOT conductive to liberty.

It makes me sick that people are triumphing a mob uprising just for the sake of it being some type of action. 'Sure, they're shutting down legitimate commerce, but at least they're doing something!' These idiots in the streets should be putting their time toward getting Ron Paul elected. Then they'd be doing something worthwhile. But if that happened, they wouldn't be able to get their chicken feed from the government and the bankers.

[Vessol]

It makes me sick that people are triumphing a mob uprising just for the sake of it being some type of action. 'Sure, they're shutting down legitimate commerce, but at least they're doing something!' These idiots in the streets should be putting their time toward getting Ron Paul elected. Then they'd be doing something worthwhile. But if that happened, they wouldn't be able to get their chicken feed from the government and the bankers.

Agreed, the energy is certainly being wasted.

I'm just remarking that I am surprised that something like this actually happened. That the passive Americans actually did some action, even if it is violent and completely unproductive.

I guess I could compare it to how some people must have felt about the Russian Revolution. Yes, there is nothing good coming out of it, but I have this morbid curiosity and surprise that something is even happening.

[NewRightLibertarian]

Agreed, the energy is certainly being wasted.

I'm just remarking that I am surprised that something like this actually happened. That the passive Americans actually did some action, even if it is violent and completely unproductive.

The American people galvanized to go to tea party rallies which were remarkably civil especially in comparison to this occupy garbage. But since the media said they were evil, racist, terrorist extremists over and over and over again, everyone seems to marginalize them even here when everyone here knows that Rand Paul is one of the main leaders of the movement.


I guess I could compare it to how some people must have felt about the Russian Revolution. Yes, there is nothing good coming out of it, but I have this morbid curiosity and surprise that something is even happening.

I was curious about the tea party, but became a huge fan when Rand Paul emerged as its leader. These occupy idiots are the Obama foot soldiers that he said he was going to create. The good elements of the movement will be purged, undoubtedly, as time goes on.

[Kludge]

It makes me sick that people are triumphing a mob uprising just for the sake of it being some type of action. 'Sure, they're shutting down legitimate commerce, but at least they're doing something!' These idiots in the streets should be putting their time toward getting Ron Paul elected. Then they'd be doing something worthwhile. But if that happened, they wouldn't be able to get their chicken feed from the government and the bankers.
It's refreshing just to see that the people in these protests were bored, not apathetic. Maybe I have low expectations, but it excites me to know there are so many people willing to do something dramatic and adventuresome instead of mundane and repetitive. Having people willing to do something for what they believe in signifies we're in a great environment to push through some real change. You can't have individualism without passion -- apathetic, dimly wandering around with a closed mind - and be able to accept any type of individualist message. You can't have self-reliance without passion, principles without passion, or even responsibility without passion. Yeah - these protesters are probably largely passionate about "bad" principles, but they're great candidates for being great human beings who actually care enough about something - anything - to research more and dig into learning what they need to change their environment in a positive way.

There are plenty of people here who'll say "Ron Paul woke me up," and that's the kind of passion which is required of doing something dramatic to force change. Perhaps cynical, but I believe the vast majority of Americans are thoughtless mundane slugs. They wander around doing their routine, maybe half-listen to a robo-call, then combine that information with what information they pick up from friends, family, the media, the little letter next to their name on the ballot, and "their gut" - then vote. No research, no care, no passion -- an ignorant half-assed decision on who they'll choose to oppress not only virtually everyone in the US, but a good bit of the world's population, with no thought of what their vote really meant. Seeing movements like OWS escalate is a great counterpoint to that depressing perspective. We can really get to purposeful people, but there's nothing lasting we can do with people who just don't give a damn. We might be able to get them to vote for Paul in an election, but if they're not passionate about living, there's no way we can get them passionate about politics. Getting someone to vote for Paul without passion is like getting a late-stage Alzheimer's patient to remember your name during a visit -- good short-term, but likely meaningless long-term, and a waste of everyone's time.

[Created4]

I am cleaning this up so you can read this. First you said real change comes through the ballot box. To which I laughed. To which you claim tea party folks, Walker and Rand were voted in as proof of change.

Again, you are setting up a straw man to knock down. Please quote where I said " tea party folks, Walker and Rand were voted in as proof of change." I never wrote that. I said they were voted in against the wishes of "them" that you claim control elections. Your premise that all elections are rigged is the one that has no support, and you have had to back track on it a couple of times now. And as to the statement "real change comes through the ballot box" that was not stated in the past tense. It was a statement of working to get Ron Paul elected, rather than waste time on OWS and closing down the port of Oakland. You can't debate points that the one you are debating is not making. That IS the classic definition of setting up a straw man to knock down.

[moostraks]

So you don't think the Kentucky voters putting Rand Paul into the Senate, for example, brought about more good than anything OWS is doing?


Hmmm... So to follow your logic, then people "behind the scenes" must have done a good job getting Rand Paul into the Senate, getting Scott Walker into the governor's house in Wisconsin, and all the other "tea party" types that came into office last year. So how do we get "them" behind Ron Paul?


But to say that Walker is not an improvement over Doyle shows, at least, how lacking you are on understanding Wisconsin politics. He may not be the strict libertarian that Ron Paul is, but he is a definite improvement, particularly on fiscal issues, and the establishment is doing everything they can to get him out of power. The fact that people like him and Rand Paul CAN be elected disproves your premise.


:confused: Have quoted for you again. You are the one implying good from Rand, Walker, and that Tea party types are changes from the ballot box. If I said a few good slip in and you latch on to it and say Walker is better than Rand and that shows ballot box change (see bolded part below), I DISAGREE with that belief. Any small victories are token wins because they are too isolated to be effective.


Again, you are setting up a straw man to knock down. Please quote where I said " tea party folks, Walker and Rand were voted in as proof of change." I never wrote that. I said they were voted in against the wishes of "them" that you claim control elections. Your premise that all elections are rigged is the one that has no support, and you have had to back track on it a couple of times now. And as to the statement "real change comes through the ballot box" that was not stated in the past tense. It was a statement of working to get Ron Paul elected, rather than waste time on OWS and closing down the port of Oakland. You can't debate points that the one you are debating is not making. That IS the classic definition of setting up a straw man to knock down.

I never said that all elections are controlled but that many are:


Tptb don't need to rig every poll to achieve what they want nor does every politician have to be corrupted. All you need is strategic placement of specific individuals or machines who are controlled. Then you use herd mentality to corral the rest.


I know b.s. when it comes to voting makes a difference because I got my t-shirt in the last round. I also said to have at voting and be loud about it, because the more people who talk and see that their experiences are being marginalized by a crooked system, the sooner we are all on the same page


That if there is any among them who are worthy they are so isolated among the power players that it is a moot point...Now if you think real change comes at the ballot box as you said in the beginning, you would be under the naive belief that voting is fair, and the politicians are playing by the rules. Which is why I asked you if you thought the backroom deals start once they are fairly voted in. Do you understand now? I said my experiences told me differently...

I have held my ground, it is you who seems to lack memory of that which you speak.



Real change occurs in the ballot box.

Using your words-occur [əˈkɜː]
vb -curs, -curring, -curred (intr)
1. to happen; take place; come about
2. to be found or be present; exist
3. (foll by to) to be realized or thought of (by); suggest itself (to)

Still waiting for proof that change occurs at the ballot box. If you want to back track and say it will NOW occur as opposed to what has been previously experienced why will this time be any different? What has changed? Do you think that the backroom deals won't be found this time? Do you think Ron Paul delegates won't be marginalized? What has changed to make the circumstances different? Their behavior during the debates and in the media is the same if not more blatant about marginalizing the good doctor. I think they have had even more time to prepare for dissenters and we again will be marginalized. What say you?

BTW what happened to your opinion on the great Scott Walker?

[Created4]

BTW what happened to your opinion on the great Scott Walker?

Still setting up straw men to knock down I see, so that you can debate yourself. I never offered an analysis of Walker's politics in this thread (see the thread on governors where I question where Walker stands on certain issues). I offered Walker as an example of someone who destroys your premise that all elections are rigged, and that he is the same as Doyle. The opposition to Walker is probably fiercer than any other political fight I have seen in my lifetime. They did everything they could to stop him from being elected, opposed his policies once he was elected by leaving the state legislature for Illinois to prevent voting on his bill, and are now spending millions to recall him. If your premise that all elections are rigged were true, then there is no way they would have let this one go through. Quoting websites that oppose Walker does not disprove my premise, but yours.

"occurs" - simple present tense, not past tense. I have already explained what I meant by that (support Ron Paul and get him elected rather than close down ports). If you want to make it mean something else just so you can debate yourself, have at it.

[moostraks]

Still setting up straw men to knock down I see, so that you can debate yourself. I never offered an analysis of Walker's politics in this thread (see the thread on governors where I question where Walker stands on certain issues). I offered Walker as an example of someone who destroys your premise that all elections are rigged, and that he is the same as Doyle. The opposition to Walker is probably fiercer than any other political fight I have seen in my lifetime. They did everything they could to stop him from being elected, opposed his policies once he was elected by leaving the state legislature for Illinois to prevent voting on his bill, and are now spending millions to recall him. If your premise that all elections are rigged were true, then there is no way they would have let this one go through. Quoting websites that oppose Walker does not disprove my premise, but yours.

"occurs" - simple present tense, not past tense. I have already explained what I meant by that (support Ron Paul and get him elected rather than close down ports). If you want to make it mean something else just so you can debate yourself, have at it.

:rolleyes: you talk out of both sides of your mouth...this was a colossal waste of time. You never offered anything of substance for your proposal. It stands as most of us originally agreed as laughable.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)

[WarNoMore]

:rolleyes: you talk out of both sides of your mouth...this was a colossal waste of time. You never offered anything of substance for your proposal. It stands as most of us originally agreed as laughable.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)

Considering how few people have ever voted for a libertarian candidate, it's not really repeating the same thing over and over again, is it? Maybe libertarians have to change their approach to politics in order to gain more sway. But to give up on it? To say the ballot box isn't our opportunity for change? Ignorance. Impatience.

[moostraks]

Considering how few people have ever voted for a libertarian candidate, it's not really repeating the same thing over and over again, is it? Maybe libertarians have to change their approach to politics in order to gain more sway. But to give up on it? To say the ballot box isn't our opportunity for change? Ignorance. Impatience.

Those that guard the gates will have to be co-opted. Third party candidates are at a distinct disadvantage in our system. As I have said, have at it and be vocal but don't be surprised with change is not found at the ballot box. The corruption is systemic. To say the ballot box is THE method for change? Naive. Inexperienced.