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MyLibertyStuff
11-01-2011, 05:57 PM
Anybody whose ever served knows you don't pick the wars you fight, you go where you're sent. Can you name one war in the history of mankind where innocents didn't get killed? It was crap just like this that gave the entire generation that served in Vietnam a permanent black eye. It was literally the same exact garbage, American troops killing old ladies and kids. They find the miniscule percentage of troops willing to openly bash American policy and they exploit them for their own ends. Don't like the war? Then vote the politicians out who ordered it, but don't bash the grunts fighting it. Your buddy "Scorpio" has some interesting opinions on things, like why isn't Pakistan using their nuclear weapons (against us I presume)? This is nothing but Anti-American Muslim propaganda you're spreading around, and its bullshit.

Anti Federalist
11-01-2011, 06:00 PM
It takes two to tango.

One to give the orders.

One to follow the orders.

Each have a degree of responsibility.

MyLibertyStuff
11-01-2011, 06:05 PM
but in this case, not following orders will lead to being treated as a felon or worse...

emazur
11-01-2011, 06:10 PM
Then vote the politicians out who ordered it, but don't bash the grunts fighting it.

I mostly agree with that. Hell, even Michael Moore does. However, if troops obey unconstitutional orders, or if they make decisions on their own to ignore the Constitution, there is certainly room for criticizing the troops.

Pat Buchanan Conservative
11-01-2011, 06:10 PM
but in this case, not following orders will lead to being treated as a felon or worse...To answer your question, first I support the troops even if i don't support the wars and have never found them to be 'babykillers' or whatever. Secondly, I despise the hippie movement since the SDS was a communist group but Vietnam was an undeclared war, McNamara told a lot of lies about it to lead us in, and D.C. never listened to the troops on the ground to win it. There's never been a war in our interests since the Mexican-American War. Finally instead of meddling with other countries' affairs we should secure our own borders and protect our families.

phill4paul
11-01-2011, 06:12 PM
Edit..NVM... answer coming

Sorry, I took the rant differently. Thought it linked to some certain event.

It all comes down to obeisance.

This nation is ALL about obeisance.

pcosmar
11-01-2011, 06:13 PM
but in this case, not following orders will lead to being treated as a felon or worse...

Better an honest felon then.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NcLNoxiPBk

Anti Federalist
11-01-2011, 06:17 PM
but in this case, not following orders will lead to being treated as a felon or worse...

Yes, doing the right thing often has severe consequences.

Pat Buchanan Conservative
11-01-2011, 06:18 PM
Yes, doing the right thing often has severe consequences.Do you give taxes to the IRS? Do you send your child to public schools?

hazek
11-01-2011, 06:19 PM
Anybody whose ever served knows you don't pick the wars you fight, you go where you're sent. Can you name one war in the history of mankind where innocents didn't get killed? It was crap just like this that gave the entire generation that served in Vietnam a permanent black eye. It was literally the same exact garbage, American troops killing old ladies and kids. They find the miniscule percentage of troops willing to openly bash American policy and they exploit them for their own ends. Don't like the war? Then vote the politicians out who ordered it, but don't bash the grunts fighting it. Your buddy "Scorpio" has some interesting opinions on things, like why isn't Pakistan using their nuclear weapons (against us I presume)? This is nothing but Anti-American Muslim propaganda you're spreading around, and its bullshit.

You live in fantasy land:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SODTI_C1q_Q

ClayTrainor
11-01-2011, 06:21 PM
Claiming you are just following orders is the classic nazi defense. It is also the same excuse used by virtually every man in government uniform who has committed an aggressive action against other people.

If your actions resulted in the deaths of innocent people, than you are accountable.

Anti Federalist
11-01-2011, 06:23 PM
Do you give taxes to the IRS? Do you send your child to public schools?

No and no.

Pat Buchanan Conservative
11-01-2011, 06:32 PM
No and no.Well not trying to sound like a jerk here but look everyone who knows me knows that I have opposed the Iraq and Afghanistan wars as much as anyone along with the Libyan fiasco and any attack on Iran. However I also would have opposed the Vietnam War because it was not within our interests but that doesn't mean I would call Vietnam veterans which include my grandfather 'babykillers.' Besides a lot of veterans of these two wars have returned home and become anti-war.

Anti Federalist
11-01-2011, 06:36 PM
Well not trying to sound like a jerk here but look everyone who knows me knows that I have opposed the Iraq and Afghanistan wars as much as anyone along with the Libyan fiasco and any attack on Iran. However I also would have opposed the Vietnam War because it was not within our interests but that doesn't mean I would call Vietnam veterans which include my grandfather 'babykillers.' Besides a lot of veterans of these two wars have returned home and become anti-war.

Nobody here was calling anybody "babykillers".

That said, if you follow the orders you have some level of culpability.

phill4paul
11-01-2011, 06:37 PM
Well not trying to sound like a jerk here but look everyone who knows me knows that I have opposed the Iraq and Afghanistan wars as much as anyone along with the Libyan fiasco and any attack on Iran. However I also would have opposed the Vietnam War because it was not within our interests but that doesn't mean I would call Vietnam veterans which include my grandfather 'babykillers.'


If a respected next door neighbor killed his child over economic reasons would you defend him?

Either we hold individuals to personal actions or we hold to GOVERNMENT principles of sanctions.

pcosmar
11-01-2011, 06:39 PM
Besides a lot of veterans of these two wars have returned home and become anti-war.

This is true. Why do you think that is?

When I was in, they taught that refusing unlawful orders was a responsibility.

I also remember that fragging was common in Nam.
I believe that it should be practiced a lot more.

Pat Buchanan Conservative
11-01-2011, 06:41 PM
If a respected next door neighbor killed his child over economic reasons would you defend him?

Either we hold individuals to personal actions or we hold to GOVERNMENT principles of sanctions.Well then that begs the question. Let's say if my grandfather threw a grenade and killed a Vietcong man and his wife. What does that make him?

ClayTrainor
11-01-2011, 06:42 PM
Well then that begs the question. Let's say if my grandfather threw a grenade and killed a Vietcong man and his wife. What does that make him?

A government hired killer.

AuH20
11-01-2011, 06:43 PM
Anybody whose ever served knows you don't pick the wars you fight, you go where you're sent. Can you name one war in the history of mankind where innocents didn't get killed? It was crap just like this that gave the entire generation that served in Vietnam a permanent black eye. It was literally the same exact garbage, American troops killing old ladies and kids. They find the miniscule percentage of troops willing to openly bash American policy and they exploit them for their own ends. Don't like the war? Then vote the politicians out who ordered it, but don't bash the grunts fighting it. Your buddy "Scorpio" has some interesting opinions on things, like why isn't Pakistan using their nuclear weapons (against us I presume)? This is nothing but Anti-American Muslim propaganda you're spreading around, and its bullshit.

It's ultimately based on the composure and value system of the said individuals. For example, My Lai didn't occur because their superiors told them do so, but many were thrown into an asymmetrical conflict which is beyond stressful. There are unstable, weak individuals in the military just like there is a representative percentage in overall society.

pcosmar
11-01-2011, 06:44 PM
Well then that begs the question. Let's say if my grandfather threw a grenade and killed a Vietcong man and his wife. What does that make him?

Guilty of murder. tried or not.
There is a final judge we all answer to.

Anti Federalist
11-01-2011, 06:50 PM
Well then that begs the question. Let's say if my grandfather threw a grenade and killed a Vietcong man and his wife. What does that make him?

Were they shooting at him?

Was there an active battle going on?

Or take the case of a 22 year old Air Force sergeant sitting in an air conditioned CONEX box 10,000 miles away from the field of battle, hitting the drone's missile launch button with the clear understanding that the missile will kill innocent people.

While he may not suffer any consequences, indeed may get a medal instead, does he have no responsibility for that action?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLMCjuge6oE

fisharmor
11-01-2011, 06:57 PM
Well not trying to sound like a jerk here but look everyone who knows me knows that I have opposed the Iraq and Afghanistan wars as much as anyone along with the Libyan fiasco and any attack on Iran. However I also would have opposed the Vietnam War because it was not within our interests but that doesn't mean I would call Vietnam veterans which include my grandfather 'babykillers.' Besides a lot of veterans of these two wars have returned home and become anti-war.

Could that be, perhaps, a result of at least seeing dead babies?
Dead babies is one of the things that happens in war. There's no getting around that.
We can argue whether it's a good idea to assign blame to the guy who is dropping the bomb or throwing the grenade in the living room, but I think the shame of it all is how as a society we collectively have our heads in our asses on the issue.
The dead babies happen. It's part of the package.
Lots of other stuff is in that package, too. I got to see some pictures and video in late 2004 of shit happening in Iraq and it's what started the wheels spinning in my head. It was like the final scene of Stand By Me - that's not a homeless guy sleeping in the street, that's a corpse. And some teenager snapped a picture of him.
What the hell kind of situation is that? When I was that age, I was taking pictures of my friends hiking in New Mexico. I wasn't snapping pictures of the 'hadjis' I just snuffed.

And to this day, 10 years later, we have yet to hear why we sent them there, what the goal is, or how we can get them out.
And it just so happened that bin Laden admitted to the world that his goal was to get us to do exactly the things we are doing.
We have no goal, and theirs is almost met.
It's impossible for us to win, and their victory is certain.

That's not glorious. It's wrong.
Period.
There's no honor in it.
At one time, they may have been able to say "at least we can still win".
They can't even say that now.
Every soldier who died, died to secure their victory.
Every civilian who was killed died to secure their victory.

We played right into their hands, and continue to do so.
Frankly, I stopped "supporting the troops" about five years ago.
I feel sorry for them, but I'm not flashing the thumbs up.

A couple weeks ago I was in Lowe's and saw a man who had a prosthetic right arm and right leg.
That's the deal. You signed the papers? Well, you have a choice now -
1) Go, and spend a couple years turning people into hamburger for the greater glory of America's continued loss of this war, and potentially get yourself turned into a freak for life to boot, or
2) become a felon.

I'm not really seeing how that's a tough choice.

pcosmar
11-01-2011, 07:01 PM
Could that be, perhaps, a result of at least seeing dead babies?
Dead babies is one of the things that happens in war. There's no getting around that.



Yes there is. Never fight a war except in defense.
No one attacking the US will be bringing babies.

Killing babies only happens when you are attacking others in THEIR HOMES.

Pat Buchanan Conservative
11-01-2011, 07:06 PM
Were they shooting at him?

Was there an active battle going on?



I am glad that you asked more questions than your fellow posters. Thank you. Yes and yes.

MyLibertyStuff
11-01-2011, 07:07 PM
Only fighting wars in defense does not change the fact that wars cause dead babies ;)


Yes there is. Never fight a war except in defense.
No one attacking the US will be bringing babies.

Killing babies only happens when you are attacking others in THEIR HOMES.

Anti Federalist
11-01-2011, 07:08 PM
Yes there is. Never fight a war except in defense.

No one attacking the US will be bringing babies.

Killing babies only happens when you are attacking others in THEIR HOMES.

http://rookery.s3.amazonaws.com/793500/793710_783e_1024x2000.jpg

pcosmar
11-01-2011, 07:12 PM
Only fighting wars in defense does not change the fact that wars cause dead babies ;)

That is likely so,, but the defenders will not be the ones killing them.

And if I were the defender I would be drawing the battle away from those I am defending.

preferably to an ambush kill zone. or a preset IED.

fisharmor
11-01-2011, 07:15 PM
That is likely so,, but the defenders will not be the ones killing them.

And if I were the defender I would be drawing the battle away from those I am defending.

preferably to an ambush kill zone. or a preset IED.

Yeah... and I bet for every dead baby, you'd have three or four new guys showing up ready to fight....
...Weird, right?

AGRP
11-01-2011, 07:35 PM
Anybody whose ever served knows you don't pick the wars you fight, you go where you're sent.

Which is why the entire concept of "serving" is ridiculous if you're educated enough to understand who/what you are serving. The idea of signing away your life and liberty away for "honor" is a misnomer. Where else is this concept of signing ones life and personal decisions away to someone else other than prison? The whole "I have a family to support" is inexcusable. You're proud to say you destroyed villages, families, and lives to provide for your family? Why not join the mob? At least you will support local businesses. I will be penniless and on the streets begging for handouts before I follow a banks orders to murder innocent people for profit.

hazek
11-01-2011, 07:36 PM
Only fighting wars in defense does not change the fact that wars cause dead babies ;)

So you're going to ignore the video where soldiers themselves tell how "innocent" they really are? Seems rational. :rolleyes:

Uncle Emanuel Watkins
11-01-2011, 07:40 PM
It takes two to tango.

One to give the orders.

One to follow the orders.

Each have a degree of responsibility.

One can serve in this nation's militia; or, one can serve in this nation's military. While the militia serve to protect the people from all forms of tyranny both domestic (the Washingonians) and abroad, the military serves the more perfect Union set up over the people as a necessary tyranny. While we have a choice whether or not to join the military aristocracy established to protect the necessary tyranny ruling over us, we are born to serve in the militia to protect the people.
No professional army has ever been able to stand up to a militia assembled to protect the people.