"Ron Paul flip flops" info please.

[kusok]

Some people say Paul flip flops on the following issues:

gays in the military
being a conservative..liberterian..then conservative...then lib again
death penalty
evolution


I have a pretty good idea about the above, but wanted more input from this forum. Can some of you elaborate on this? Always interested in learning new stuff.

cheers,

[wgadget]

I think his only flip flop was on the death penalty, which he is now against.

[Bruno]

It be better if you asked them to support their flip flop claims, and put it back on them, instead of trying to prove something that isn't there.

He admits he used to be for the death penalty, but realizes government makes too many mistakes, too many innocent people are put to death, and that it unfairly is disproportionately used against minorities.

[bluesc]

Some people say Paul flip flops on the following issues:

gays in the military -- Yep
being a conservative..liberterian..then conservative...then lib again -- Real conservatism is very similar to libertarianism. His views are his views.
death penalty -- Yep
evolution -- Definitely seems like he did.

It's almost certain that it is liberals criticizing this, but his "flip flops" on DADT and the death penalty benefit them (point being it hurts him with conservatives, so he isn't doing it to please any audience like others do), so they are obviously finding anything they can to criticize him for. Does his views on evolution really fucking matter?

[specsaregood]

gays in the military

He said DADT was a fair policy; he was under the impression it was being used as a nofraternization policy. he changed his position and was against DADT after talking to constituents that were kicked out of the military because they were "outed". He supports a no-fraternization policy where everybody is treated the same way.


being a conservative..liberterian..then conservative...then lib again huh? he only joined the libertarian party once and if anybody reads his resignation lettter, it was because the republican party was not actually behaving conservative.


death penalty
After seeing so many people sentenced to death; where it was later overturned due to new evidence he came to the conclusion that the federal government can't be trusted in this regard.


evolution
I don't know what you mean there; but he has always said he doesn't know everything and that evolution shouldn't be something that matters to government.

[redmod79]

Ronald Reagan:

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.

Now, I can’t say that I will agree with all the things that the present group who call themselves Libertarians in the sense of a party say, because I think that like in any political movement there are shades, and there are libertarians who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy. I believe there are legitimate government functions. There is a legitimate need in an orderly society for some government to maintain freedom or we will have tyranny by individuals. The strongest man on the block will run the neighborhood. We have government to insure that we don’t each one of us have to carry a club to defend ourselves. But again, I stand on my statement that I think that libertarianism and conservatism are travelling the same path.


No flip flop here... Paul has been consistent in his views for 30 years, anyways

on the death penalty, he didn't flip flop... he changed his mind... a flip flop would be he was for, then against, then for, etc..... he was for, and now he's against due to an actual change in his personal beliefs

[kusok]

Thanks for responses! Educational.

[redmod79]

a better answer for the lib/conservative deal would be that regardless of what party he affiliates himself with, his views have stayed the same

[kylejack]

Ron Paul changed his position on two things, the death penalty and Don't Ask Don't Tell. The DADT reversal was the more recent reversal, coming some time after the 2007 debates. Ron Paul considers himself a libertarian (but no longer a Libertarian) and a conservative. Usually when he refers to himself as a conservative, he is referring to fiscal conservatism. The only socially conservative position I can think of him taking is against abortion.

[PastaRocket848]

if anything... the libertarian thing points out the inconsistency of the GOP.

[PauliticsPolitics]

On a side note, I wonder why flip-flopping is always such a political sin.

I mean, if someone changes their position to merely pander to their audience that day or week, that is surely a sign of disingenuous behavior.
But if someone changes their mind because they learn more facts, and they back up their decision with sound rationale, I feel that sort of flip-flop is prudent and respectable.

[jmdrake]

Some people say Paul flip flops on the following issues:

gays in the military -- Yep
being a conservative..liberterian..then conservative...then lib again -- Real conservatism is very similar to libertarianism. His views are his views.
death penalty -- Yep
evolution -- Definitely seems like he did.

It's almost certain that it is liberals criticizing this, but his "flip flops" on DADT and the death penalty benefit them (point being it hurts him with conservatives, so he isn't doing it to please any audience like others do), so they are obviously finding anything they can to criticize him for. Does his views on evolution really fucking matter?

IMO you nailed everyone except evolution. Ron Paul's position hasn't changed. He's neither for it nor against it. He thinks the jury is still out, but more importantly that the question has nothing to do with running for president. It's like asking Ron if he supported the St. Louis Cardinals or the Texas Rangers. Who cares?

His change on the death penalty was so long ago that it's unfair to call it a "flip flop". Ron went against the death penalty before going against the death penalty became "cool". Some might argue it's still not "cool" in a GOP primary.

Yeah he changed on gays in the military, but again he's going against the grain on that.

Really this whole "flip flop" charge is nonsense when you think about it. Most politicians change positions because of what the voters think. When Ron changes a position it's in spite of what the voters think.

[specsaregood]

Ron Paul changed his position on two things, the death penalty and Don't Ask Don't Tell. The DADT reversal was the more recent reversal, coming some time after the 2007 debates.

And even then his position in respect to DADT didn't really change. He misunderstood how it was being enforced. His position was always that what the military should have is a no-fraternization policy. So while he changed his mind on DADT, his position didn't change, it was how DADT was being enforced that was different than his position.

[V3n]

Does the winner get $20,000 in gold?

[bluesc]

IMO you nailed everyone except evolution. Ron Paul's position hasn't changed. He's neither for it nor against it. He thinks the jury is still out, but more importantly that the question has nothing to do with running for president. It's like asking Ron if he supported the St. Louis Cardinals or the Texas Rangers. Who cares?

His change on the death penalty was so long ago that it's unfair to call it a "flip flop". Ron went against the death penalty before going against the death penalty became "cool". Some might argue it's still not "cool" in a GOP primary.

Yeah he changed on gays in the military, but again he's going against the grain on that.

Really this whole "flip flop" charge is nonsense when you think about it. Most politicians change positions because of what the voters think. When Ron changes a position it's in spite of what the voters think.

I did point out that his views on evolution mean absolutely nothing when it comes to leading the country. I remember back in '07 he had different answers for it and the liberals went crazy trying to show he is a flip flopper. To be honest, even I don't know his true views on evolution, and personally, I don't give a shit. It's not relevant :)

[Anti Federalist]

On a side note, I wonder why flip-flopping is always such a political sin.

I mean, if someone changes their position to merely pander to their audience that day or week, that is surely a sign of disingenuous behavior.
But if someone changes their mind because they learn more facts, and they back up their decision with sound rationale, I feel that sort of flip-flop is prudent and respectable.

Yeah, that.

A true, unprincipled "flip flop" is done just to align oneself with prevailing political winds and make your life easier.

That is not the case with Ron.

In fact, taking an anti capital punishment stance, for example, as a Republican would hurt him.

[specsaregood]

That is not the case with Ron.
In fact, taking an anti capital punishment stance, for example, as a Republican would hurt him.

Good point and same thing with DADT.

[jeremiah89]

On a side note, I wonder why flip-flopping is always such a political sin.

I mean, if someone changes their position to merely pander to their audience that day or week, that is surely a sign of disingenuous behavior.
But if someone changes their mind because they learn more facts, and they back up their decision with sound rationale, I feel that sort of flip-flop is prudent and respectable.

Completely agree. If someone changes their opinion on something based on new information and facts, that should be honorable. Shows they don't just stick their head in the sand.
But in the political world, suddenly they're demonized as a flip-flopper. There's a big difference between pandering for votes, and fundamentally changing your view.

[kazmlsj]

I know if he changes his mind he will do it after much research and legitimate thought.
Just like ammending the Constitution takes much research and legitimate thought.

He will NEVER say one thing to please a crowd and then change that thing because the flavor of the crowd has changed.

Changing one's mind ≠ flip-flopping.

[kylejack]

He also changed positions and no longer supports returning to the Gold Standard. Doing so would actually be impossible because of how much they've inflated the currency. His solution is to legalize gold to be used as money if people want, alongside existing fiat currency.

[Tonewah]

Reagan said 'libertarianism is the heart and soul of conservatism', so whoever calls that a 'flip-flop' is ignorant, plain and simple.

Ron Paul is the most consistent person I've ever even heard of. Seeing innocent people killed made him take a second look at how the death penalty is handled. No one wants to see innocent people killed, I would HOPE.

If a person is consistently for the preservation of innocent lives, that isn't flip-flopping. However, someone who changes their opinion from pro-choice to pro-life from one campaign to another, like Romney, et. al., or, in Herman Cain's case, changing his position within a few moments when he was on the Stossel show, IS flip-flopping.

With regards to DADT, it amazes me how so many chicken-hawks can be so concerned with the sexual orientation of people they NEVER CHOSE TO SERVE WITH ANYWAY. I was never in the military, so I have no right to tell them who they can and can't be around. That should be a matter for the military, not wing-tipped soapbox riders, IMO. I don't know if RP would agree with me or not on that, but that's my two cents.

[Elwar]

On evolution he says that he sees it as a theory. Which it is.

[MaxPower]

Some people say Paul flip flops on the following issues:

gays in the military
being a conservative..liberterian..then conservative...then lib again
death penalty
evolution


I have a pretty good idea about the above, but wanted more input from this forum. Can some of you elaborate on this? Always interested in learning new stuff.

cheers,
The term "flip-flop" is generally taken to carry the connotations that a change in position was made out of political expediency; Ron Paul hasn't made any flip-flops in this sense. To address the issues you've raised:

1. He has, in fact, changed his position on the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, which he supported in its early years but turned against after more thorough investigation and consideration, but this was not an act of political expediency; clearly, if anything, opposing "Don't Ask Don't Tell" hurts him with the Republican base.

2. Libertarianism and conservatism are not mutually exclusive terms; it is entirely possible to consider oneself both.

3. Again, he has changed his mind about the death penalty, but I do not believe this would qualify as a "flip-flop" as I believe the term is commonly-understood. If anything, once again, the fact that he opposes the death penalty is harmful to his standing in the eyes of the Republican voting base.

4. Belief or disbelief in evolution is not a political position, and Ron Paul has never espoused a strong viewpoint either way on the issue; he said in 2007 that he simply doesn't know the truth of the matter and would not be running for office if it were the question of the day, although he appears to hint in his most recent book that he thinks the evidence favors it.

[Zap!]

It be better if you asked them to support their flip flop claims, and put it back on them, instead of trying to prove something that isn't there.

He admits he used to be for the death penalty, but realizes government makes too many mistakes, too many innocent people are put to death, and that it unfairly is disproportionately used against minorities.

That last part will surely hurt him most. Republicans do not like hearing about how bad minorities have it. Paleo-cons never mention it.

[Guitarzan]

That last part will surely hurt him most. Republicans do not like hearing about how bad minorities have it. Paleo-cons never mention it.


Sometimes the truth hurts.

[centure7]

Really this whole "flip flop" charge is nonsense when you think about it. Most politicians change positions because of what the voters think. When Ron changes a position it's in spite of what the voters think.
This is a great point. When a politician changes his opinion to one that is more unpopular with his supporters, then that is shows honesty of that politician rather than against. If a politician flips to a popular perspective from an unpopular one within his support network, then that is something questionable.