Help Me Refute A Liberal Friend. Facebook Convo Inside...

[beardedlinen]

We argued about the Fed and monetary policy, as well as the founders and Jefferson in particular. Help school both him and me:

The Fed and monetary policy:

FRIEND: the deficit spending obama has done is strategic

ME: both are for millitarism.

FRIEND: the bush spending was non strategic
it was long term
obama has done things very very differently

ME: the stimulus didn't add to the debt?

FRIEND: it did add on the debt
youre not listening
its strategic
its keynesianism
keynesianism is that the govt plays a significant role in shaping the economy and creating demand
spending is intended to stimulate demand

ME: but it doesn't work when interest rates are at 0%

FRIEND: why?
whats that have to do with it

ME: and we have a privatized central bank

FRIEND: uh

ME: that loans us our money with interest

FRIEND: what do those have to do with it
and its not privatized

ME: fractional banking

FRIEND: its just too loosely overseen

ME: creating money out of thin air
paul was the only one who ever got a partial audit of 'em

FRIEND: mazal tov

ME: turns out they created 16 trillion during the bailouts
5 trillion going overseas to help foreign banks
nd they're not part of the Fed. they're private.

FRIEND: theyre not private

ME: our founders always warned against a central bank

FRIEND: oy
no
brian

ME: they're not government
yes

FRIEND: whenever someone says "the founders said this" THEYRE F*CKING LYING

ME: jackson b*tchslapped one

----------------------------

On Jefferson:

ME: Jefferson wanted what Paul wants, and I agree.

FRIEND: u realize jefferson ended up not canceling the first bank of america?
why would he not?
perhaps he saw it was working?

ME: didn't know that

FRIEND: neither did madison
or monroe
they all realized how much it was doing for the country
and if they didnt have a more centralized economic role, the country wouldve continued to be a rural shithole with no infrastructure

ME: will have to look this up to verify and then ask more

FRIEND: jefferson had strong ideals but when he became president he went against them many many times
for example, his reading of the constitution was very strict
but then he made the louisiana purchase
the constitution did not explicitly authorize the fed govt buying territories
so in conclusion
when someone libertarian nutsucker is shouting "THE FOUNDING FATHERS SAID THIS!"
theyre f*cking liars
when they shout "JEFFERSON SAID THIS"
who f*cking cares?

Thoughts?

[bluesc]

Sounds pissed. Everyone really hates us libertarians :eek:.

Someone will be along shortly to rip that argument to shreds.

[Guitarzan]

Have you read End The Fed?

[beardedlinen]

Have you read End The Fed?

No, but I understand Paul's positions on it and have learned quite a bit about it through "fringe" documentaries, etc.

[eleganz]

There is nothing to refute, your friend doesn't seem to know what he is talking about.

But to be fair, neither do you.

no offense, just trying to be honest like Paul.

[pure]

There's a much a better argument to be had against the Fed than by bringing up Jefferson. You started to educate him on the economic repercussions of the Fed but seemed to stray away form it. Make sure your position is entirely economical - it's the most surefire way to refute all the claims from your indoctrinated liberal colleague.

For instance, you brought up the artificial interest rates but didn't seem to expound upon just how detrimental they are to the economy. Your friend needs to understand that interest rates are a price, a price of time. The government attempting to modify pricing structures in any manner clearly is a failure of central economic planning. Pricing is determined through millions of transactions occurring daily - not by some "wise" overlords in a central bank. Lower interest rates incite malinvestment, it's sending false signals to the market that there are real savings in the economy. This is precisely how all bubbles occur, as people go out and start new businesses, or new housing projects and instead upon near completion they realize that the capital needed to complete the project is not actually there. By allowing the market to determine interest rates it promotes real savings, which in turn creates investment and new capital, which in turn creates jobs.

[Guitarzan]

0% interest rates wasn't a good counter to his comment about Keynesianism creating demand.

The low interest rates or loose, easy money is what sends the bad signals to investors in the economy and is the main reason we are in this mess. It's what created the housing bubble. Now, who controls interest rates, and why were they so low for so long? Ask him that.

Also, he is correct in thinking that Keynesianism is about the gov't spending and creating demand. What he doesn't understand is that the money that is being spent has to come from somewhere. It's either borrowed, taxed, or printed...so, like RP says, the spending in itself is a tax as it has to be paid back somehow.

What the Keynesians don't comprehend, imo, is that it's not "demand" that we need so much as production. Any stimulation they do is fictitious and non-productive. The production will resume once the correction happens through liquidation of bad debt. But the keynesians won't let that happen.

[beardedlinen]

There is nothing to refute, your friend doesn't seem to know what he is talking about.

But to be fair, neither do you.

no offense, just trying to be honest like Paul.

Appreciate the honesty, but some schooling would be nice as well. :)

[eleganz]

Appreciate the honesty, but some schooling would be nice as well. :)

imo, it isn't a conversation worth re-hashing. You'd both be wasting your time because neither will conform to each others' ideas.

You guys weren't even talking about the same subject until he started bashing on Jefferson and the founding fathers.


I don't know your friend but if you have to win this battle, see what happens when you send him some clips of Peter Schiff.

[beardedlinen]

imo, it isn't a conversation worth re-hashing. You'd both be wasting your time because neither will conform to each others' ideas.

You guys weren't even talking about the same subject until he started bashing on Jefferson and the founding fathers.

Is any of that correct though? Jefferson changing his mind about a central bank?

[giovannile07]

I did know that James Madison said that he thought centralized banking would be a terrible idea and that it was unconstitutional. The only reason why he went along with it was because it seemed like the American citizens did not seem to mind it, but he never really said he was wrong or anything. The author of James Madison's biography talked about it on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Here's the interview.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-20-2011/richard-brookhiser

Random, but I don't really have many Ron Paul friend supporters, I know a few people who support him, but almost everyone I know is incredibly liberal or do not care about politics at all.

[Guitarzan]

Is any of that correct though? Jefferson changing his mind about a central bank?


Just because Jefferson didn't get rid of the bank doesn't mean he endorsed it. But yes, he did do the Louisiana Purchase, which was technically unconstitutional.

Trust me, Jefferson was not one who advocated for more centralized gov't. LOL

[gerryb]

Trust me, Jefferson was not one who advocated for more centralized gov't. LOL

Jefferson was a horrible president.

His rhetoric was superb both before and after... but when he had the reigns of power, he was horrible.