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View Full Version : The 60-30-0 Plan (or why these discussions never make it to the debates)




SharedSacrifice
10-21-2011, 01:14 PM
I am 48 years old and have been voting for over 30 years now.
I know many who have been voting for well over 60...and yet even more that have yet to cast their virst ballot ("0").

For some unknown reason...I had the sense of mind when I was yet in the "0" category (and every year there after)...that it was a joke indeed for me to believe that the entitlement system as structured then or now would ever return me a dime of what I was about to pour into it (maybe many of you had the same feeling in '81...I have no idea).

My questions are as follows:

1) Have we yet to observe a political leader of any party very simply assign the blame for the mess that we are in presently to those who have spent the most time creating it? (60 years responsible down to "0" responsible).

2) Am I to teach our children that it was indeed the political leaders of our various parties (as opposed to the collective citizenry themselves)...who should indeed shoulder the blame for their future role on the world stage?

3) If "I" have been willing all my voting life (knowing that I effectively had no choice through my love of this country) to throw away everything that I have effectively ever given to 'the cause' ...along with any expectation of the government ever being solvent enough to solve any other problem that cropped up in my lifetime (see Medicaire/Medicaid)...why wouldn't I look at all those praising Ryan's plan or any other American presently grabbing all they can get before the well runs dry...with amazement?

and finally the most important question:

...How do you teach the "0" generation that they must build a society completely different than the 30 and 60ers who have willfully destroyed this one...if they aren't taught and forced to observe first hand what their parents/grandparents should receive for their lazy political supervision and all present attempts to shamefully turn the 60-30-0 responsibility equation on its head?

If our children observe their grandparents and parents (most of whom will go along with any 'keep it this way' plan save Mom or Dad moving in or getting into their bank accounts) not taking a sliding scale responsibility for electing the people that they did or the long term policies that they year after year refused to march in the streets with pitchforks to correct...there is absolutely no reason to think that our children will not create the same society again for themselves.

If I've been (again, with no choice in the matter) willing to do my part to fix this mess since day one and additionally feel just as much responsiblity for what has happened as anybody...why would those yet even older than me feel that they have been somehow 'cheated' in any manner whatsoever today? (having lived arguably the most opportunistic/prosperous life in the history of man to boot!).

60-30-0 is a "what did you know and when did you know it.." concept that really has nothing to do with age or political intellectual capacity...and everything to do with teaching our kids that it is not who you vote for...but what the consequences are (or should be) for not following up on that decision after you do.

Acala
10-21-2011, 01:29 PM
Okay. I read this twice and still don't have a clue what might be your point.

SharedSacrifice
10-21-2011, 02:09 PM
(Acala)

"...Okay. I read this twice and still don't have a clue what might be your point. ..."

Wow, tough (personal responsibility) forum.

Let's see if I can help.

I may be in the wrong place (Independents/personal responsibility and all)...but if you have been voting for 60 years (or even voting for 30)...one indeed takes more 'personal responsibility' for whatever happens as a result of those votes than one who has never voted (zero or "0").

In fact, since we can never obviously blame a single or even multiple politicians for say 60 years of bad policy leading to fiscal bankruptcy (these people being mere fallen men and the whole 'personal responsibility' thing and all)...we OURSELVES should be obligated to shoulder the financuial burden of our decisions on a sliding scale mirroring the number of years we have had the opportunity to vote and correct mere 4 or 6 year political terms.

We live and prosper here only by God's grace and our collective willingness to correct or stand by the decisions that we are blessed to shape. If you don't believe in the former and/or feel that the latter is irrelevant in terms of teaching our children (by example) what the consequences of their future actions will be when Americans truly DO believe in personal responsibility...I'm not sure how to explain myself any further.

Acala
10-21-2011, 02:23 PM
I voted straight Libertarian ticket from the age of 18 until I switched parties to support Ron Paul in the last primary. What is my share of the responsibility?

I agree somewhat with the idea that, for example, it would be fair for the "Greatest Generation" that allowed the Social Security and Medicare monsters to devour the country to see the benefits of those programs pulled out from under them.

However, I think implicit in your position is the idea that democracy is a legitimate process when I think it is not. It is a rigged system that is played against the people. If you evaluate it along the lines of a Public Choice analysis, it really isn't even possible for a democracy to NOT come to the end ours has reached.

Acala
10-21-2011, 02:25 PM
(Acala)

"...Okay. I read this twice and still don't have a clue what might be your point. ..."

Wow, tough (personal responsibility) forum.

I think it was Pericles (an esteemed contributor to this forum) who once said something like "Don't feel bad. Even God gets a hard time on this forum"

SharedSacrifice
10-21-2011, 05:34 PM
I voted straight Libertarian ticket from the age of 18 until I switched parties to support Ron Paul in the last primary. What is my share of the responsibility?.

In my opinion, that would depend on exactly how many elections you may (or may not) have voted in since the age of 18...'independent' of who you even voted for on each occassion. My point is that true responsibility for the mess that we are now in has nothing to do with the predictably questionable character of our choices or whether a citizen even chose to vote or not. The financial responsibility or simple debt layed out before us should be attacked in direction proportion to the age of all those responsible for creating it...for the very simple reason that we have no other means of dramatically proving to our children the consequences of their attempting the same scheme all over again when they finish paying for what others refused to face responsibly.


"...I agree somewhat with the idea that, for example, it would be fair for the "Greatest Generation" that allowed the Social Security and Medicare monsters to devour the country to see the benefits of those programs pulled out from under them.

However, I think implicit in your position is the idea that democracy is a legitimate process when I think it is not. It is a rigged system that is played against the people. If you evaluate it along the lines of a Public Choice analysis, it really isn't even possible for a democracy to NOT come to the end ours has reached.

I know of no point in the entire American political process spanning from the beginning to now that this (huge) ship could not have been turned around successfully both then, now and in the future. I choose not to (and am fortunate to have had others die for this choice) live in any system that is 'rigged' even IF fallen men sometimes choose to play the greatest system ever devised against this people.

Our problem is very simply this:

As this forum so far today illustrates, you will generally get but one member such as yourself to even 'dare' make the suggestion you made above regarding subject matter affecting the bottom line of most fellow member's present or future pocketbooks. Even worse, most of those unwilling to comment on such pressing matters have prided themselves their entire lives on how great an example (fiscally) that they have been to both their children and others.

What these kids are asking for now is simply some accountability (let alone a presidential candidate's offer) that those responsible all these years simply pay their 16 trillion dollar invoice before the debtors die or somebody starts changing their diapers for them.

Dead threads such as this prove that no one will ever indeed go to bat for them and that's a pretty sad commentary on all of our lives to date. :(

one male human
10-21-2011, 08:29 PM
What these kids are asking for now is simply some accountability (let alone a presidential candidate's offer) that those responsible all these years simply pay their 16 trillion dollar invoice before the debtors die or somebody starts changing their diapers for them.

When issues only offer heads or tails to choose leading away from here and now, just where does one end up once the issue is and if resolved?

Excellent thread, I hope you keep posting.

SharedSacrifice
10-22-2011, 03:44 AM
When issues only offer heads or tails to choose leading away from here and now, just where does one end up once the issue is and if resolved?

Excellent thread, I hope you keep posting.

I wish that I had the gift of 'summarization' such as what you have offered up above.

With the 16 trillion and climbing issue being presently 'non-debatable' (literally in terms of the Republican debates to date)...I see no other outcome after any possible resolution than for following generations to attempt it all once again.

It is one thing to run on and tout personal responsibility in an America that your supporters clamor to see built.
It is quite another to preach true shared sacrifice solutions 'first' or as a condition of ever possibly having any hope of ever constructing this Xanadu in the first place.

A previously 'scared' generation having first hand witnessed their forefathers suffer immensely has been of great benefit to this country many times in the past. If we don't start fielding candidates willing to explain the simple value of this fact or even discuss at every opportunity given how 16 trillion is a 'suffering today' amount and not a "..January of '13 and then we'll simply shrink the government..." mere 'problem'...where does one end up?

Thanks for the encouragement.

one male human
10-22-2011, 07:37 PM
One ends up chasing their humanity socially as an actor on a staged set of world events directed by those that believe that life couldn't exist without them.

I think every society has their philosophy that governs who they are above being just one gender human. Yet nobody understands what that total sum of being one gender adds up to be. So as generations progress through the eternal here and now relative to which generations are occupying the space time woven between conception and conceiving each next total sum individuality we assume many things relative to constant results not completely comprehended.

A shared sacrifice, or a bloodless amergeddon (I wish) will happen when humans quit playing roles of character in social significance. In that no one has the liberty casting who they are as society's children for life because those leading society demand they follow the educated format of thinking what life could become while no body knows how to think for themselves.

: Details are insignificant if actions don't conceive the next generation to reconsider what was in the past that made everything go wrong again.