Lew Rockwell calls for repudiation of student loans

[qh4dotcom]

Link

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/96973.html

[iamse7en]

The student loan bubble isn't the only debt bubble where we need repudiation. Washington's blog has covered this (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/07/economics-professor-well-have-never.html) before.

[Rothbardian Girl]

Could not have put it better myself as a current college student. Everyone got scammed by this except the higher-ups, as usual.

[green73]

rep +

[TCE]

That would be step one, to end federal student aid but step two would be to privatize the state schools. A big reason that I haven't heard discussed anywhere on here is that most universities are public. Instead of raising taxes on their citizens, states raise tuition. It would be a boon for private schools if federal student aid was ended, but to complete the whole puzzle, schools would need to be privatized.

[specsaregood]

Could not have put it better myself as a current college student. Everyone got scammed by this except the higher-ups, as usual.

I'm ok with it as long as they return their degrees and aren't allowed to claim them for employment purposes. You want to claim them then you gotta pay for them.

[TCE]

I'm ok with it as long as they return their degrees and aren't allowed to claim them for employment purposes. You want to claim them then you gotta pay for them.

Keep in mind at least for me, the government changed the rules completely in the middle of the game. I posted about this a while back, but the two Financial Aid bills Congress passed last year changed a lot and all of it for the worse. There is a bunch of new paperwork for colleges to fill out now and there are hundreds of pages of new rules. Guess who they passed the costs onto?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/us/politics/26loans.html

They attached it to the Health Care bill. How nice of them. I think all Republicans voted "no," so it is probably not nearly as innocuous as the New York Times makes it out to be.

[jkr]

I'm ok with it as long as they return their degrees and aren't allowed to claim them for employment purposes. You want to claim them then you gotta pay for them.
GR8!where do i sign up?

they can have mine back
im 141k in debt
i am NOT using my degree=cannot command compensation to pay it off
i am essentally doing what i was doing 10 years ago BEFORE i tried to better myself for the benefit of my family and community
there are few jobs
i was COMPLETELY unprepared for how to use my degree in the world
i was naive to think people would pay me fairly for what i can do for them and their products
I ALSO DIdNT KNOW THAT STUDENT DEBT=DEBT SLAVE for LIFE, i learned that in school 2 years in.
why did they change the rules?
why can ANYONE fuck up and get a do over, EXCEPT "students"?
not faair at all and FUCK any "person" who disagrees, i am NOT interested in you or your tough love bullshit.

f'n take it, you can have it




IT IS NOT WORTH IT!

[TCE]

GR8

they can have mine back
im 141k in debt
i am NOT using my degree=cannot command compensation to pay it off
i am essentally doing what i was doing 10 years ago BEFORE i tried to better myself for the benefit of my family and community
there are few jobs
i was COMPLETELY unprepared for how to use my degree in the world
i was naive to think people would pay me fairly for what i can do for them and their products
I ALSO DIdNT KNOW THAT STUDENT DEBT=DEBT SLAVE, i learned that in school 2 years in.

f'n take it, you can have it


where do i sign up?

IT IS NOT WORTH IT!

Care to post the full story in hopes of those of us still in college learning from it? Would greatly appreciate it.

[Brian4Liberty]

Once again, smart kids could work their way through school

They always have. But what the heck, let's reward the ones who took on debt. Don't we get more of what we reward?

[specsaregood]

GR8!where do i sign up?

f'n take it, you can have it
IT IS NOT WORTH IT!

Then we are in agreement; thats why I passed on it.

[qh4dotcom]

Someone on Facebook asked me to sign a petition for forgiving loans...I said I'm not signing anything until students learn the truth about why they are so deeply in debt and who's responsible....and I gave them a Peter Schiff video to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIcfMMVcYZg

Also can the students please stop helping the corrupt politicians get elected? The politicians who are responsible for their debt problems?

[Jake Ralston]

GR8!where do i sign up?

they can have mine back
im 141k in debt
i am NOT using my degree=cannot command compensation to pay it off
i am essentally doing what i was doing 10 years ago BEFORE i tried to better myself for the benefit of my family and community
there are few jobs
i was COMPLETELY unprepared for how to use my degree in the world
i was naive to think people would pay me fairly for what i can do for them and their products
I ALSO DIdNT KNOW THAT STUDENT DEBT=DEBT SLAVE for LIFE, i learned that in school 2 years in.
why did they change the rules?
why can ANYONE fuck up and get a do over, EXCEPT "students"?
not faair at all and FUCK any "person" who disagrees, i am NOT interested in you or your tough love bullshit.

f'n take it, you can have it




IT IS NOT WORTH IT!

Whoa whoa whoa now, wait a second here. Are you claiming that you borrowed ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY ONE THOUSAND dollars for your education? Lol wtf am I reading that right?

[dannno]

I'm ok with it as long as they return their degrees and aren't allowed to claim them for employment purposes. You want to claim them then you gotta pay for them.

Um


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It is in fact not currently illegal to claim degrees that you do not actually have, however employers generally look down strongly on lying on your resume.

However it doesn't seem like it would be beneficial for companies to ignore any education their applicants may have received, so I don't know why employers would choose to enforce this.

[specsaregood]

Um
It is in fact not currently illegal to claim degrees that you do not actually have, however employers generally look down strongly on lying on your resume.

However it doesn't seem like it would be beneficial for companies to ignore any education their applicants may have received, so I don't know why employers would choose to enforce this.

Uhm, I didn't say to pass any laws. The universities however should deny they have that degree and they should have to return any diplomas and such nonsense.

[dannno]

Whoa whoa whoa now, wait a second here. Are you claiming that you borrowed ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY ONE THOUSAND dollars for your education? Lol wtf am I reading that right?

Pretty sure some Ivy League schools run around $30-40k per year including housing, I believe.

Compared to state schools that run around $15k or so per year, including housing.

[dannno]

Uhm, I didn't say to pass any laws. The universities however should deny they have that degree and they should have to return any diplomas and such nonsense.

I lost my diploma ;)

Why not instead make the condition that the government stop backing student loans so we can fix the problem instead of punishing the victims?

[specsaregood]

I lost my diploma ;)

Then no debt refund for you!

[dannno]

Then no debt refund for you!

It was lost in the mail, never received it.

The diplomas they hand out at graduation are usually certificates, you get the real one mailed later on.

[specsaregood]

It was lost in the mail, never received it.
The diplomas they hand out at graduation are usually certificates, you get the real one mailed later on.

Life just aint fair. sorry about that, obviously it wasn't important to you.

[Anti Federalist]

Ah, jes...My diploma I left in my other pants.

[libertarian4321]

Forgive all college loans?

Are you kidding?

Not only would that lay a huge burden on the taxpayers, it would completely screw over a lot of people who made loans. I know, it's fashionable to claim "banks are evil"- but a lot of those loans are held by small local banks.

Essentially, this would be "welfare for college students/graduates."

If we are against welfare for poor people, why should we be for welfare for college graduates, MOST OF WHOM ARE NOT drowning in debt or unemployed. In fact, they are typically the highest earners.

Plus, it would be a real kick in the nuts to those kids who earned scholarships, or even worse, those who scraped their way through college working 2 or 3 jobs if those who did nothing but take out a loan and show up for class were given a huge, and undeserved, windfall.

[jkr]

Whoa whoa whoa now, wait a second here. Are you claiming that you borrowed ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY ONE THOUSAND dollars for your education? Lol wtf am I reading that right?
yeah, i really screwed myself-so far- the job market for design/engineering in production was dying, i saw a way to make thing better by being involved in product development at an earlier stage and continue to earn my way through life and make cool stuff for people who wanted it, but i couldn't afford it so i hocked myself to salie mae.

did i mention that i worked full time (co-op) every other quarter?

yeah, its THAT expensive, or at least it was for me.

I jumped in, impatiently, and did this to myself. Sure it was enabled / facilitated "whatever" by outside forces...the same forces that were causing the problem i was fleeing from, but I DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT YET...now i have learned the hard way NEVER TRY TO IMPROVE YOUR LIFE OR THE LIVES OF THOSE AROUND YOU.

i fell for it
i need help, i dont want to be a bum, i love to create things
i would like a solution, since there is NO WAY OUT

[specsaregood]

Plus, it would be a real kick in the nuts to those kids who earned scholarships, or even worse, those who scraped their way through college working 2 or 3 jobs if those who did nothing but take out a loan and show up for class were given a huge, and undeserved, windfall.

It would also not be fair for those that opted not to pursue a degree due to cost; and instead self-studied to get the same knowledge.

Maybe I misunderstood though, I am against "forgive", however I think some way of allowing them to declare bankruptcy on the debt should be worked out with all the negative effects of a bankruptcy. Plus, require them to reliquish the degree and not be able to claim it.

[Danke]

I'm calling for it too.

[specsaregood]

I'm calling for it too.
However, the downside might be the loss of all those strippers and "sugar babies". Clearly, we must not be too hasty in this decision.

[Danke]

However, the downside might be the loss of all those strippers and "sugar babies". Clearly, we must not be too hasty in this decision.

Hadn't thought of that...

[Anti Federalist]

However, the downside might be the loss of all those strippers and "sugar babies". Clearly, we must not be too hasty in this decision.

You can get a degree in stripping?

[specsaregood]

You can get a degree in stripping?

Why, you interested?

[Anti Federalist]

I haven't read th OP yet, but I'm thinking it is a call to change the favored status of student loans, and allow them to be discharged through bankruptcy, if that's what it came to.

Any other loan can be, and thus the market adjusts for those possible costs and losses.

I see no reason why student loans should hold the same indissoluble status as income tax debt or child support.


Forgive all college loans?

Are you kidding?

Not only would that lay a huge burden on the taxpayers, it would completely screw over a lot of people who made loans. I know, it's fashionable to claim "banks are evil"- but a lot of those loans are held by small local banks.

Essentially, this would be "welfare for college students/graduates."

If we are against welfare for poor people, why should we be for welfare for college graduates, MOST OF WHOM ARE NOT drowning in debt or unemployed. In fact, they are typically the highest earners.

Plus, it would be a real kick in the nuts to those kids who earned scholarships, or even worse, those who scraped their way through college working 2 or 3 jobs if those who did nothing but take out a loan and show up for class were given a huge, and undeserved, windfall.

[nbhadja]

I'm ok with it as long as they return their degrees and aren't allowed to claim them for employment purposes. You want to claim them then you gotta pay for them.

It's ok the college degrees are worthless and don't help recent grads get a job anyways :)

[Brian4Liberty]

So, instead of my State University degrees which I paid for by working during the summers, I could have gone to Stanford or Harvard for free? I bet those student loans pay for beer, burgers and pizza too... I guess I was the stupid one.

[Anti Federalist]

Why, you interested?

Hell yeas!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwwB016cRNA

[Danke]

Why, you interested?

I'd imagine he is now thinking of adding that as one of the requirements to work on one of his boats.

[pcosmar]

You can get a degree in stripping?

I have known several dancers that were paying their way through college.
I suspect they did NOT have loans,, They were paying for college.

;)

[Danke]

I have known several dancers that were paying their way through college.
I suspect they did NOT have loans,, They were paying for college.

;)

you mean YOU were paying their way. ;)

[specsaregood]

I have known several dancers that were paying their way through college.
I suspect they did NOT have loans,, They were paying for college.

;)

I would have to assume that pull wads of cash out of various unmentionables would force one to acquire math skills and advanced accounting knowledge.

[dannno]

I have known several dancers that were paying their way through college.
I suspect they did NOT have loans,, They were paying for college.

;)

Known? Hell, I lived with one :D

[nbhadja]

yeah, i really screwed myself-so far- the job market for design/engineering in production was dying, i saw a way to make thing better by being involved in product development at an earlier stage.

I jumped in, impatiently, and did this to myself. Sure it was enabled / facilitated "whatever" by outside forces...the same forces that were causing the problem i was fleeing from, but I DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT YET...now i have learned the hard way NEVER TRY TO IMPROVE YOUR LIFE OR THE LIVES OF THOSE AROUND YOU.

i fell for it

i would like a solution, since there is NO WAY OUT

I feel for you. College is a big scam and most people in college have no business going to college, but college is a big business in bed with the government and they brainwash everyone to think college is needed. They want as many customers as possible.

A large percent of the students drop out of college, and of the ones who do graduate these days most cannot find any job except for basic retail and food jobs that they could have gotten without a degree. College was a waste of time for me, but luckily I made 12000 from it in my 4 years (state scholarships) so I fucked the state of Florida over instead of Florida fucking me over.

There is no way that most of the college students in big depth like you will ever be able to pay off their debt. Something will have to happen- I think the colleges should just eat the loss. It's the least these lying brainwashing scamming bastards could do. The money should be cut from college funding- it's not like they use it for any good.

Most colleges spend money like the British royal family. They need extreme budget cuts. My college spent 30,000 dollars on each statue and bought a few of them- and this is a state in Florida with very low education funding and in a supposed "education budget" crisis.

Society would be so much more productive if the big business known as college stopped sleeping with government and brainwashing everyone to waste their time and money AND tax payer money with college.

[jkr]

You can get a degree in stripping?
yeah, and the g00bermint pays for the new tits!


pssssssst that means US

[libertarian4321]

I have known several dancers that were paying their way through college.
I suspect they did NOT have loans,, They were paying for college.

;)

I've never met a stripper who didn't claim she was working her way through college, even the ones who are 40-years old, with stretch marks and C-section scars...

[libertarian4321]

College is a big scam and most people in college have no business going to college, but college is a big business in bed with the government and they brainwash everyone to think college is needed.


College can be a waste of time/money if you go in without a plan, thinking you can get just any old degree and get a great job when you get out. Many college degrees are of little value, however, many others are very valuable.

The people I work with are almost exclusively college graduates. They all make good money. I doubt any of them, even those who took out big loans, thinks college was a "bad idea."



A large percent of the students drop out of college, and of the ones who do graduate these days most cannot find any job except for basic retail and food jobs that they could have gotten without a degree.

The overwhelming majority of college students do NOT drop out. And most college grads are not working at Walmart or McDonalds type jobs.


There is no way that most of the college students in big depth like you will ever be able to pay off their debt.

Nonsense. It may be true if you got a degree in African Music Appreciation (or similar), however, even those with very large loans, like the "$140k" guy above, will usually be able to pay them off if they got a decent degree and get a decent job. Given the low interest rates, those with good jobs can pay those loans off very quickly if they focus on it- put their new wages toward debt elimination rather than blowing the money. A single guy with an engineering degree and a $70k starting salary could knock out a $140k debt in just a few years, less if he really worked it.

Of course, most students have nowhere near that level of debt, so they can pay off their debts much more easily.

"Something will have to happen- I think the colleges should just eat the loss. It's the least these lying brainwashing scamming bastards could do. "

Colleges rarely make loans. The people who "eat it" will be banks and taxpayers, not colleges.

[pcosmar]

you mean YOU were paying their way. ;)

Not really,, Many will not allow me to tip. Unless it is a seed to get others tipping.
They buy me drinks.
:D

[pcosmar]

I've never met a stripper who didn't claim she was working her way through college, even the ones who are 40-years old, with stretch marks and C-section scars...

At least one got a degree (Marine Biologist). I haven't keep up with them all. I got married. :)

[Jake Ralston]

Pretty sure some Ivy League schools run around $30-40k per year including housing, I believe.

Compared to state schools that run around $15k or so per year, including housing.

So we have an unemployed *POSSIBLE* Ivy League school graduate that is $141k in the hole. Lesson learned folks?

As for me, i'm collecting $2100 a month in housing income, as well as all books and tuition paid in full. I also work part-time.

Post-911 GI Bill folks, get it.

[pcosmar]

"When I think back on all the crap I learned in High School,
It's a wonder I can think at all."

I'm personally glad I never went that route.

[dannno]

So we have an unemployed *POSSIBLE* Ivy League school graduate that is $141k in the hole. Lesson learned folks?

As for me, i'm collecting $2100 a month in housing income, as well as all books and tuition paid in full. I also work part-time.

Post-911 GI Bill folks, get it.

Did you cancel your credit card yet?

[Jake Ralston]

Did you cancel your credit card yet?

Getting personal are we? Piss off. I'll pay your house off with my credit card, burn it down, and piss on it.

[nbhadja]

[QUOTE]College can be a waste of time/money if you go in without a plan, thinking you can get just any old degree and get a great job when you get out. Many college degrees are of little value, however, many others are very valuable.

The people I work with are almost exclusively college graduates. They all make good money. I doubt any of them, even those who took out big loans, thinks college was a "bad idea."

Even the so called "good degrees" these days are worthless unless you go to grad school for most students.

Yes the people you work with benefited from their degrees, but what about the countless recent grads who are working in food or retail?? And I am not talking about BS majors from bad colleges, even the good majors from decent schools are having a very hard time finding jobs after college. Most of the recent finance, accounting etc majors I know cannot find jobs and are working in food and retail.

It depends on your age. Now we have the bad economy PLUS degree inflation so undergrad degrees are the new HS degree. Even just 4-5 years ago it was different, but not anymore. Along time ago degree inflation did not exist, but now it does but the scamming colleges don't want anyone to know about it.




The overwhelming majority of college students do NOT drop out. And most college grads are not working at Walmart or McDonalds type jobs.

A big percent do drop out. In fact, out of the bottom 40% of HS graduation classes, 80% of them who go to college will end up NEVER getting a degree yet you never here colleges tell the truth on that fact. The colleges will still tell EVERY HS student to go to college it is such BS.

Also I said "recent" college grads. Even just 5 years ago a college degree could guarentee you a decent job, let alone 10-20 or more years ago. Those days are over. Now college grads have extremely hard times finding jobs after graduation and yes most RECENT college grads having retail food jobs.



Nonsense. It may be true if you got a degree in African Music Appreciation (or similar), however, even those with very large loans, like the "$140k" guy above, will usually be able to pay them off if they got a decent degree and get a decent job. Given the low interest rates, those with good jobs can pay those loans off very quickly if they focus on it- put their new wages toward debt elimination rather than blowing the money. A single guy with an engineering degree and a $70k starting salary could knock out a $140k debt in just a few years, less if he really worked it.

Even the "real" degrees are worthless by themselves in most cases these days unless you go to grad school. I am assuming you are not a recent grad within the past 3 years. Check it out- ask recent grads if they can find jobs. Most can't.

Of course, most students have nowhere near that level of debt, so they can pay off their debts much more easily.


"Something will have to happen- I think the colleges should just eat the loss. It's the least these lying brainwashing scamming bastards could do. "

Colleges rarely make loans. The people who "eat it" will be banks and taxpayers, not colleges.

Colleges can eat the loss in the form of budget cuts though. Colleges are just a flat out waste of money. WHy do the fat ass professors even need golf carts? Why do they spend so much money maintaining the useless grass fields? Why do they waste money on the sports that generate no income?

It's about time something forces the out of control colleges to stop their spending, and budget cuts because of the student loan issue might just be that.

[Brian4Liberty]

Getting personal are we? Piss off. I'll pay your house off with my credit card, burn it down, and piss on it.

Lol.

761

[AGRP]

This "repudiation" talk for anything appears to be a fairy tale.

Please tell me how this is possible and the likelihood this will happen.

[heavenlyboy34]

Forgive all college loans?

Are you kidding?

Not only would that lay a huge burden on the taxpayers, it would completely screw over a lot of people who made loans. I know, it's fashionable to claim "banks are evil"- but a lot of those loans are held by small local banks.

Essentially, this would be "welfare for college students/graduates."

If we are against welfare for poor people, why should we be for welfare for college graduates, MOST OF WHOM ARE NOT drowning in debt or unemployed. In fact, they are typically the highest earners.

Plus, it would be a real kick in the nuts to those kids who earned scholarships, or even worse, those who scraped their way through college working 2 or 3 jobs if those who did nothing but take out a loan and show up for class were given a huge, and undeserved, windfall.
Those people were irresponsible and deserve to be screwed, just as they screwed students. Student loans are given out to anyone with a pulse with no collateral. If the student loan industry couldn't rely on gov'ment and colleges, they'd be out of business. If you or I were to use the same lending practices as student loan providers, we'd be out of business due to our own stupidity and irresponsibility. Let the loan industry eat their losses and learn a lesson for next time.

[heavenlyboy34]

College can be a waste of time/money if you go in without a plan, thinking you can get just any old degree and get a great job when you get out. Many college degrees are of little value, however, many others are very valuable.

The people I work with are almost exclusively college graduates. They all make good money. I doubt any of them, even those who took out big loans, thinks college was a "bad idea."
Sound too good to be true? It is. The people you speak of got a front-loaded deal(aka a scam). IF they ever recoup the losses incurred, it will likely be well into their careers. On top of that, the dollars they earn will be worth less than the dollars they paid for their degrees.(thanks to monetary and degree inflation) If any of these people you speak of is female, her debt burden will make her unmarriable. What a great bargain! /sarcasm

[heavenlyboy34]

BTW, it seems some of you didn't read the OP. He says "If we want a rationalization of higher-ed, and to free the slaves, let's repudiate these debts, and end all student aid. Once again, smart kids could work their way through school, their academic overlords in (fewer) colleges and universities would earn market salaries, and the taxpayers would be partially freed, too."

[heavenlyboy34]

This "repudiation" talk for anything appears to be a fairy tale.

Please tell me how this is possible and the likelihood this will happen.
Any more of a fairy tale than repudiating the national debt? (as RP has talked about a few times)

[AGRP]

Any more of a fairy tale than repudiating the national debt? (as RP has talked about a few times)

Which should come along with the crash right?

[heavenlyboy34]

Which should come along with the crash right?
Most likely, IMO.

[dannno]

Getting personal are we? Piss off. I'll pay your house off with my credit card, burn it down, and piss on it.

U mad?

[Aden]

You guys who find it hard to believe he has 140k in student loans... you have no idea. As a student, I can tell you this is nothing. I just made a poll. We'll see how much RPF members owe.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?325110-Poll-How-much-do-you-own-in-student-loans

[Anti Federalist]

I've never met a stripper who didn't claim she was working her way through college, even the ones who are 40-years old, with stretch marks and C-section scars...

Age-ist.

What, 40 YO single moms can't be in college?

LoL

[libertarian4321]

[QUOTE=libertarian4321;3676849]

A big percent do drop out. In fact, out of the bottom 40% of HS graduation classes, 80% of them who go to college will end up NEVER getting a degree yet you never here colleges tell the truth on that fact. The colleges will still tell EVERY HS student to go to college it is such BS.


Bottom 40% of HS graduation classes?

Well, Hell yeah, those dumb asses tend fail in college- they aren't college material.

If you aren't in the top third of your HS class, you probably shouldn't be going to college. If you are below the 50% line, you are most likely going to fail.

However, among people who are "college material"- those in the top 25% or more, the drop out rate is quite low.

Less than 40% of adults has a college degree, so it's pretty unlikely someone at the bottom of his HS class is going to succeed in college.

[libertarian4321]

Sound too good to be true? It is. The people you speak of got a front-loaded deal(aka a scam). IF they ever recoup the losses incurred, it will likely be well into their careers. On top of that, the dollars they earn will be worth less than the dollars they paid for their degrees.(thanks to monetary and degree inflation) If any of these people you speak of is female, her debt burden will make her unmarriable. What a great bargain! /sarcasm

First off, not everyone with a college degree ends up with a huge amount of debt. Many even manage to go to elite schools and end up with little, or no, debt. Those who are academically gifted usually has scholarships that pay for most, or all, of their college education.

And even for those who aren't true scholars, the cost should be significantly below $140k. If you aren't good enough to get a full (or nearly full) scholarship, DON'T GO TO AN EXPENSIVE PRIVATE SCHOOL. Start at a community college (still very cheap), then go to a state school, get whatever scholarships you can, work during the school year and over the summer, and end up with a far more manageable debt load- probably well under $30k.

Some of you folks make it sound like every kid who goes to college ends up with $130k in debt, a degree in women's studies (or something equally useless) and a job at Walmart. I assure you, there are plenty, even today, who graduate with useful degrees, get good jobs, and have very manageable debt (or no debt at all).

[LibertyEagle]

I don't get it. The student chose of their own free will to take out a student loan. No one made them do it. They chose to. And now, some are claiming that the debt they willingly took on should be erased? Why? On what basis?

Does that mean that when I make a bad financial decision, that someone should reimburse me for the money I lose?

I don't see how either is libertarian in any way, shape, or form.

With liberty, comes responsibility.

[ifthenwouldi]

With liberty, comes responsibility.

Absolutely. And as someone who made it all the way through graduate school while working full-time and raising two kids WITHOUT taking on any debt, I have a right to object to debt repudiation. My grandfather worked HARD at a paper mill for 40 years to help pay for part of my education, so while I feel compassion for those of you who have great debt, it would be immoral to simply "waive" it away.

The best thing you can do is teach your children and grandchildren what my grandfather and father taught me - that almost anything of value takes hard work to obtain.

[MRoCkEd]

So now bailouts are good?

But students wouldn't have taken out so many loans if the government wasn't involved.

That's like saying we should support TARP because the banks wouldn't have taken such risks if the government wasn't involved.

Talk about moral hazard...

[demolama]

Living frugally can have a lot to do with how much quicker the loans disappear. My wife and I live off one income. Even when we have kids the plan is to remain that way. Once I have my PhD in hand and have a job we still plan on living that way and using the second income to pay off loans and to save. Living this way for well over ten years now makes us appreciate the fact we don't have the "I wants." We don't want/need the expensive Tv's, named brand clothes, the gimmicky Ipads, Smartphones, etc. We don't eat out several times a week. Even living in the state of Maryland, where owning a home is near impossible on one income, we lived frugally. It can be done. It was tough living off 25k a year but we did it.

[TNforPaul45]

Yeah i have to disagree with Lew on this, thoughh he is caling for a wipe of the debts and not ambailout specifically.

These students incurred a debt, they must pay it. No one held a gun to them and made them take it out.

Lets fix the bigger aspects of our economic problems instead of focusing on emotional candy and then the students will be prosperous enough to pay their debts and more!

It takes maturity to pay off 24k in student loans instead of buying that new Ford Mustang.

[qh4dotcom]

So now bailouts are good?

But students wouldn't have taken out so many loans if the government wasn't involved.

That's like saying we should support TARP because the banks wouldn't have taken such risks if the government wasn't involved.

Talk about moral hazard...

I don't like bailouts but if other kinds of debts can be discharged through bankruptcy so should student loans.

and let's face it, the US government is going to need a bailout for the national debt and unfunded liabilities...no bailout means all the taxpayers are on the hook.

[TCE]

I don't get it. The student chose of their own free will to take out a student loan. No one made them do it. They chose to. And now, some are claiming that the debt they willingly took on should be erased? Why? On what basis?

Does that mean that when I make a bad financial decision, that someone should reimburse me for the money I lose?

I don't see how either is libertarian in any way, shape, or form.

With liberty, comes responsibility.


So now bailouts are good?

But students wouldn't have taken out so many loans if the government wasn't involved.

That's like saying we should support TARP because the banks wouldn't have taken such risks if the government wasn't involved.

Talk about moral hazard...

I understand this argument, but completely disagree with it. For 18 years, the government/society brainwashes everyone into thinking they need to go to college. They have to get a degree or else they are worthless. Every teacher, counselor, principal, etc shoves this ideology down their collective throats. The government personally sends materials on how to get loans and then all of this data is released about how people with degrees earn more. Then, because of all this government interference and propping up of the college bubble, virtually all jobs above a certain level require a degree. And you're expecting 18-year olds who have high GPA's to see through all this and not go to college? Not gonna happen. The system needs to start unwinding. It won't, but it would be for the best. This recession has helped revert people away from expensive colleges. At my school, the numbers they have show fewer people registering. If tuition keeps going up and the recession gets worse, people won't be able to go to expensive colleges and the market will take it from there.


In this thread, there has been a ton of rhetoric, some true, most not. Blaming the students for a problem the government caused is the wrong way of looking at this. All things being equal, in a free market, yes, it would be completely on the students, however, in this system of smoke and mirrors, blame can be placed squarely on the government. The only kids at fault are those who go to expensive colleges and take out $50,000 or more in loans and then cry that they're broke. Go to a cheaper school. I can't be mad at the people who go to cheap schools and are $10,000 or less in debt and will be working to pay it off. In a free market, they would have virtually no debt.

[specsaregood]

I don't get it. The student chose of their own free will to take out a student loan. No one made them do it. They chose to. And now, some are claiming that the debt they willingly took on should be erased? Why? On what basis?
Does that mean that when I make a bad financial decision, that someone should reimburse me for the money I lose?
I don't see how either is libertarian in any way, shape, or form.
With liberty, comes responsibility.

So you are against all bankruptcy laws? No debt should be able to be discharged?

[heavenlyboy34]

First off, not everyone with a college degree ends up with a huge amount of debt. Many even manage to go to elite schools and end up with little, or no, debt. Those who are academically gifted usually has scholarships that pay for most, or all, of their college education.

And even for those who aren't true scholars, the cost should be significantly below $140k. If you aren't good enough to get a full (or nearly full) scholarship, DON'T GO TO AN EXPENSIVE PRIVATE SCHOOL. Start at a community college (still very cheap), then go to a state school, get whatever scholarships you can, work during the school year and over the summer, and end up with a far more manageable debt load- probably well under $30k.

Some of you folks make it sound like every kid who goes to college ends up with $130k in debt, a degree in women's studies (or something equally useless) and a job at Walmart. I assure you, there are plenty, even today, who graduate with useful degrees, get good jobs, and have very manageable debt (or no debt at all).
Good point. That's why I went to community college. I have less debt than most people who went to a regular university.

[Rothbardian Girl]

The landscape is much changed today, too. There are more people in college nowadays, so the value of the education has been dumbed down even further, like Lew mentioned in this blog post. So you're paying a lot more for an education that doesn't really teach you anything. Now that there are more people who hold degrees as a result of this dumbed-down curriculum, people are apparently forced to get degrees if they really want to compete in the workforce. The propaganda mills are working on overload like TCE mentioned. There are all kinds of presentations and meetings with counselors, administrators, teachers, etc. in high school that essentially convey it is impossible to get turned down for a fair loan and that everyone will probably get some sort of scholarship to cover their butts. It isn't true. Then we have colleges being deceptive about how much money it actually takes to go to college, and putting you on all sorts of frivolous dining plans and room plans and things like that.

The main problem is that there was a thread of rhetoric started by the government (I think this kind of talk started during the Clinton years, but I'm not totally sure) that said everyone should be able to go to college. There are a ton of people in college who belong in more vocational-type jobs. Here's a personal anecdote: I personally cannot expect to do well in a service job because of my hearing disability. I've tried manning a cash register in my summer of working at a golf course, and it's torture for me. That is part of the reason why I personally feel that I should be in college. I'm sure people who are similarly uncomfortable in conversational situations should be given the benefit of the doubt as well. So, yes, I would blame the government (and the colleges, who probably encouraged this new influx of business) for flooding the colleges and giving out loans and scholarships to the people who don't belong in college, inflating the cost of college for a dumbed-down curriculum that doesn't teach anyone anything important.

Personally, my parents are going to be in for a lot more debt than I am. I'll probably graduate with 40k of loans that I'll have to pay off, and then I plan on helping my parents pay for the rest after that. I can't imagine having to get a predatory private loan, which is what I should have done if I didn't want to compromise my principles, but why should I be forced to pay an extraordinarily high interest rate when I can get a similar loan for a lower interest rate? Again, the nature of government programs is that it limits competition. People here seem to understand that fact, but balk at when they actually see examples of it in real life.

We can also blame the stigmas associated with community college and trade schools for a lot of this, too. I actually wanted to go to community college after I graduated from high school, but my parents thought that I would be getting a subpar education at one. Even the in-state schools in Pennsylvania are getting pretty expensive.

[heavenlyboy34]

So you are against all bankruptcy laws? No debt should be able to be discharged?
This^^ Plenty of responsible people wind up in bad situations and wind up deep in debt and have to go bankrupt. Student loans shouldn't be treated differently just because the student loan industry has good lobbyists.

[A Son of Liberty]

Post-911 GI Bill folks, get it.

Yeah, we get it. Everyone else has loans that they can't pay back that will eventually get passed along to the taxpayer. You just skipped the first step.

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't get it. The student chose of their own free will to take out a student loan. No one made them do it. They chose to. And now, some are claiming that the debt they willingly took on should be erased? Why? On what basis?

Does that mean that when I make a bad financial decision, that someone should reimburse me for the money I lose?

I don't see how either is libertarian in any way, shape, or form.

With liberty, comes responsibility.
Is it responsible for lenders to give out bad (uncollateralized) loans to people they don't know will be able to pay back? In any other industry, this is called predatory lending. (don't forget, the loan industry lobbied for the clause in bankruptcy law that makes it impossible to discharge student debt in bankruptcy) Is it responsible for universities to accept students who clearly aren't college material just because they can get government-backed loans? I think not. Also, don't forget that government dictates on employers "discrimination" forces employers to require degrees when in a rational, unmanipulated market employers could simply administer some sort of intelligence/aptitude test.

[RabbitMan]

I went to college on a scholarship and so didn't have to incur student loans, but A LOT OF MY FRIENDS DID. I can vouch that roughly half of them moved on to real careers, and half of them weren't able to do anything with it other than get a job at Target or Blockbuster. Several of those ended up then joining the military out of frustration, as I intend to in the next 5 months.

Make no mistake, student loans are a SCAM, and for those who went to college at least pre-2008, we were told all of our lives, whether in school, at the library, on TV, in the media, that going to a (State) College is just "what you do" after high school. And then you get a decent job that can help pay back student loans while living frugally, and then after a few years you move up in your chosen career and are debt free. It doesn't matter that you incurred $30k[my 2nd tier state university] or $140k[Columbia University] of debt. That's just how the system 'works'. These days it is nearly impossible to work and pay your own way through anything probably above a 2nd tier university or a tech school, unless you have a stable income in the first place, give up the majority of your free time, and spend almost twice as long going to school.

My girlfriend got student loans to get her Masters in Public Administration in 2006. Working part-time, she finished in 2010. She is now $40k in debt and unable to find a job to pay it back because there just aren't any since late 2009-10, when the government cuts became real. She can not declare bankruptcy to get it forgiven, and the loan is non-negotiable, all because of the Fed. Government Student Loan take over. NON-NEGOTIABLE. NON-ERASABLE. Her student loan interest rate is twice that of the loan on her car.

I feel for all those who have either had to work hard or were fortunate enough to not incur debt for their education. The idea of their bad choices being instantly forgiven sounds awful. But there is no need to be hateful or act as if they are COMPLETELY responsible for their situation. Like Ron Paul said in the last debate, don't blame the victim.

[heavenlyboy34]

edit: dupe post

[goldencane]

Wow a lot of people here seem to be libertarians except for when it does not personally benefit them. No one is forced into student loans, they are all voluntary contracts. As bad as the banks are, that does not mean it is ok for the government to force them to get rid of all those voluntary contracts. Anyone calling for the government to get rid of all student debt needs to join Obama or Romney or the like, you guys are a disgrace to all libertarians, ancaps, constitutionalist, etc.

[LibertasPraesidium]

Im only around 30k in debt because of college, and I would never ask to be forgiven of that debt. I went into it, naively or not, knowing that I would have to pay for it after I get out of college.

I would not be supporting Ron Paul if I wanted forgiveness. Anyone that went to school and received student loans is screwed, there arent that many jobs, and that was never part of the deal anyway.

Though there was an entire culture dedicated to telling many of us that the only way was through college, So I will take responsibility for taking the loans, and force others to take their responsibility in placing the incentives there, and telling people it's the only way to make a livable income in the later years of life.

That is something I've known about the whole time, and I don't care, but if they want their associates degree they can have it. (wait, I STILL DONT have one.)

[Gumba of Liberty]

Wow a lot of people here seem to be libertarians except for when it does not personally benefit them. No one is forced into student loans, they are all voluntary contracts. As bad as the banks are, that does not mean it is ok for the government to force them to get rid of all those voluntary contracts. Anyone calling for the government to get rid of all student debt needs to join Obama or Romney or the like, you guys are a disgrace to all libertarians, ancaps, constitutionalist, etc.

Those who understand the situation are calling for bankruptcy protection not a bailout. Should all others debts incurred by the population stick around with them their entire lives? Why should only student loans, loans taken out by high school students, brainwashed by public schooling (the government) and their well-meaning parents, be the only ones unable to repudiate debts that the cannot pay? These poor souls have no hope for work and once they find work the bankers will garnish their wages, tax returns, and eventually social security checks. They are an over educated (while sometimes badly educated) group looking forward to a future of permanent poverty. They are an official underclass of society that will either perish under their burden or rise up with calls for Revolution (OWS).

[goldencane]

Those who understand the situation are calling for bankruptcy protection not a bailout. Should all others debts incurred by the population stick around with them their entire lives? Why should only student loans, loans taken out by high school students, brainwashed by public schooling (the government) and their well-meaning parents, be the only ones unable to repudiate debts that the cannot pay? These poor souls have no hope for work and once they find work the bankers will garnish their wages, tax returns, and eventually social security checks. They are an over educated (while sometimes badly educated) group looking forward to a future of permanent poverty. They are an official underclass of society that will either perish under their burden or rise up with calls for Revolution (OWS).

While bankruptcy protection might not get rid of ALL debt, as far as I understand it, it is the government stepping in and discharging a large chunk of debt. Thus I do not support bankruptcy for any debt. I do not think the government should be allowed to step in and break voluntary contracts. That being said, I think the loaners would be better off if they did not chase those in debt their whole lives. It would be a waste of time and money pursuing people who will never be able to pay it off. Education for those about to enter into these contracts is a better option than breaking their contracts if they can't follow through with them.

[heavenlyboy34]

Wow a lot of people here seem to be libertarians except for when it does not personally benefit them. No one is forced into student loans, they are all voluntary contracts. As bad as the banks are, that does not mean it is ok for the government to force them to get rid of all those voluntary contracts. Anyone calling for the government to get rid of all student debt needs to join Obama or Romney or the like, you guys are a disgrace to all libertarians, ancaps, constitutionalist, etc.
You missed the point entirely. The argument is that student loan debt should be treated like other debt and that lenders of student loans should be as responsible as other lenders. No one is forced to get a car or house either, but that debt goes away in bankruptcy. You're making it seem like a person who discharges their student debt gets a "free ride". Not the case. Bankruptcy fucks up your life for a pretty good while. It's something you definitely want to avoid if possible.
You think it's "libertarian" to deny bankruptcy to one group (because the loan agencies lobbied congress to get the law in their favor passed) but allow it for other groups? :rolleyes: Yeah, that's so libertarian of you. Oh, and condoning the moral hazard created by the higher ed/student loan industry/government complex isn't exactly "libertarian" in my book. (btw, did you know that when you pay your loan bill to a place like Direct Loans, you write a check directly to the Department Of Education? Not exactly a department a libertarian would favor)

[heavenlyboy34]

While bankruptcy protection might not get rid of ALL debt, as far as I understand it, it is the government stepping in and discharging a large chunk of debt. Thus I do not support bankruptcy for any debt. I do not think the government should be allowed to step in and break voluntary contracts. That being said, I think the loaners would be better off if they did not chase those in debt their whole lives. It would be a waste of time and money pursuing people who will never be able to pay it off. Education for those about to enter into these contracts is a better option than breaking their contracts if they can't follow through with them. That's reasonable too. Either everyone gets bankruptcy protection or no one does.

[LibertyEagle]

Is it responsible for lenders to give out bad (uncollateralized) loans to people they don't know will be able to pay back? In any other industry, this is called predatory lending. (don't forget, the loan industry lobbied for the clause in bankruptcy law that makes it impossible to discharge student debt in bankruptcy) Is it responsible for universities to accept students who clearly aren't college material just because they can get government-backed loans? I think not. Also, don't forget that government dictates on employers "discrimination" forces employers to require degrees when in a rational, unmanipulated market employers could simply administer some sort of intelligence/aptitude test.

Are you saying that college students are not responsible for their actions?

[LibertyEagle]

So you are against all bankruptcy laws? No debt should be able to be discharged?

I'm not real fond of them, no, but I am not against them existing. BUT, I do think there should be a major societal black mark associated with the person who does file for bankruptcy. It is not something to be proud of. That person entered into a contract of their own free will and proceeded to break the contract.

It used to be said that a man was only as good as his word. Bankruptcy is used to legally break one's word.

[Seraphim]

No. His argument is that it is absolutely, positively unreasonable to NOT allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy. That's fucking absurd.

Bankruptcy screws your life for a little while, but at least you get a chance to redeem yourself if you work hard. The current Federal Law structure says HAH GOTCHA, YOU'RE FUCKED FOR LIFE EVEN IF YOU CAN'T PAY. TO THE RAPE CAGES YOU GO IF YOU DISAGREE!!

Sorry, but to make it law that student debt can't be discharged/written down like any other debt through Chapter 7, is an abomonation within a so called free society.


Are you saying that college students are not responsible for their actions?

[Seraphim]

I'm not real fond of them, no, but I am not against them existing. BUT, I do think there should be a major societal black mark associated with the person who does file for bankruptcy. It is not something to be proud of. That person entered into a contract of their own free will and proceeded to break the contract.

It used to be said that a man was only as good as his word. Bankruptcy is used to legally break one's word.

No, bankruptcy is a legal means by which someone unable to pay can escape a debtors prison.

Just because you claim bankruptcy, it does not mean that all your debts all of a sudden magically go away. There is DUE PROCESS. One must forfeit unprotectable assets as immediate debt repudiation and show there are legitimate reasons as to why the rest cannot or will not be payed off.

[LibertyEagle]

No. His argument is that it is absolutely, positively unreasonable to NOT allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy. That's fucking absurd.

Bankruptcy screws your life for a little while, but at least you get a chance to redeem yourself if you work hard. The current Federal Law structure says HAH GOTCHA, YOU'RE FUCKED FOR LIFE EVEN IF YOU CAN'T PAY. TO THE RAPE CAGES YOU GO IF YOU DISAGREE!!

Sorry, but to make it law that student debt can't be discharged/written down like any other debt through Chapter 7, is an abomonation within a so called free society.

That almost sounds like you are saying that in a "free society" it is okay to break a contract that you willingly chose to enter into.

Look, I'm not against allowing people to file bankruptcy for student debt. But, it certainly should not be WAIVED and it most certainly shouldn't be considered honorable to do it.

[heavenlyboy34]

Are you saying that college students are not responsible for their actions? No, I'm saying that predatory lenders are responsible for their actions. In any other industry, the way student borrowers are treated would be illegal. More than half the states have laws against the type of lending that the student loan industry engages in. If it weren't for their various government protections, the student loan racket would have collapsed long ago.

[heavenlyboy34]

That almost sounds like you are saying that in a "free society" it is okay to break a contract that you willingly chose to enter into.

Look, I'm not against allowing people to file bankruptcy for student debt. But, it certainly should not be WAIVED and it most certainly shouldn't be considered honorable to do it.Why do you treat student loan debt differently than other debt? Discharging debt in bankruptcy is not the same as a waiver. I totally agree that a waiver should not be given. The whole model of student lending (and "higher education") needs to be redone so as to be fair and reasonable to all parties involved. The government should definitely be removed from the industry-I think you'd agree with that. Even worse than the predatory nature of these loans is that when you pay back a government loan, the check goes directly to the Department of Education-one of numerous agencies that needs to be scrapped.

[Feeding the Abscess]

1. They aren't getting repaid; if that were otherwise, there wouldn't be a trillion in unpaid loans floating around.

2. Why punish taxpayers for the misgivings of a distorted market, accelerated by an immoral government? What did the person who paid off their debts or those who didn't get any loans for school do to deserve such a burden?

3. Have we forgotten that ALL student aid is now explicitly handled by the federal government? And that it was implicitly assumed that the federal government would back it in full prior to Obamacare? I will say it again: all taxpayers are on the hook for these loans now.

4. Understanding my first three points, what other solution is there other than to shut it down, erase immorally conceived debts, and eliminate the federal government's involvement in this realm?

[angelatc]

They should give up their right to call themselves college graduates if they manage to lobby for their loan forgiveness.

They bitched and bitched until they managed to get politicians to federally guarantee the student loans, with the caveat that they wouldn't be able to stick it to the taxpayer after they graduated. Now the markets doing exactly what the economics majors predicted it would do, and we're supposed to feel sorry for them?

Ask the same liberal whiners if tax debt should be forgiven too, and watch them spit nails at the mere thought of letting those evil tax avoiders gets away with ripping off the taxpayer.

The older I get, the more I understand my grandfather's decision to not have the surgery he needed. The future is a fail.

[Seraphim]

See my post directly below the one you quoted.


That almost sounds like you are saying that in a "free society" it is okay to break a contract that you willingly chose to enter into.

Look, I'm not against allowing people to file bankruptcy for student debt. But, it certainly should not be WAIVED and it most certainly shouldn't be considered honorable to do it.

[Danke]

I'm not real fond of them, no, but I am not against them existing. BUT, I do think there should be a major societal black mark associated with the person who does file for bankruptcy. It is not something to be proud of. That person entered into a contract of their own free will and proceeded to break the contract.

It used to be said that a man was only as good as his word. Bankruptcy is used to legally break one's word.

And you know there is no contract to receive Social Security nor Medicare, right? The Supreme Court has said this a long time ago.

Blaming students for their ignorance?

Well, there are no laws requiring any one in the private sector to have and use a SSN.

So all money paid into such scheme is in fact voluntary. Don't bitch if it is taken away.

[LayZayFaire]

LOL at kids that went to college and pursued worthless degrees like political science, communications, management (You think I want some fresh out of college punk managing me? Fuck you.), public administration, philosophy, etc. and now can't find jobs. Who studies this shit?

All of you complaining didn't get conned. The trap was right in front of you and you walked right into it. I ain't paying for yall.

[LibertyEagle]

And you know there is no contract to receive Social Security nor Medicare, right? The Supreme Court has said this a long time ago.

Blaming students for their ignorance?
Who is blaming them? I think they, as all adults, should be held accountable for their actions.


Well, there are no laws requiring any one in the private sector to have and use a SSN.

So all money paid into such scheme is in fact voluntary. Don't bitch if it is taken away.
Straw man.

:rolleyes:

[LibertyEagle]

Why do you treat student loan debt differently than other debt? Discharging debt in bankruptcy is not the same as a waiver. I totally agree that a waiver should not be given. The whole model of student lending (and "higher education") needs to be redone so as to be fair and reasonable to all parties involved.
Such as? I thought we were for letting the market decide.


The government should definitely be removed from the industry-I think you'd agree with that.
Absolutely. But, that means some students will likely not be able to get student loans, you realize.


Even worse than the predatory nature of these loans is that when you pay back a government loan, the check goes directly to the Department of Education-one of numerous agencies that needs to be scrapped.

That's not an excuse, hb. If they don't pay, it is the American people who are stuck with the bill. Be honest. You know that.

[Danke]

Who is blaming them? I think they, as all adults, should be held accountable for their actions.


Straw man.

:rolleyes:

No, just showing your hypocrisy.

[MRoCkEd]

LOL at kids that went to college and pursued worthless degrees like political science, communications, management (You think I want some fresh out of college punk managing me? Fuck you.), public administration, philosophy, etc. and now can't find jobs. Who studies this shit?

All of you complaining didn't get conned. The trap was right in front of you and you walked right into it. I ain't paying for yall.
Don't need to be so harsh about it.. lol

Your point is right, though. People need to learn their job prospects are not very good if they major in something like art history or philosophy.

People with degrees in engineering, mathematics, computer science, physical science, finance, accounting, information systems aren't doing so bad though.

[LibertyEagle]

No, just showing your hypocrisy.

Since you seem to want to make this personal for whatever reason, no, I have never thought SS would be available by the time I retired.

I think you are being ridiculous, however, with your claim that SS is voluntary. It is taken out of your paycheck by your employer, at the government's directive. So how exactly is that voluntary?

[matt0611]

Who's gonna be on the hook for this? The taxpayers?

I majored in electrical engineering, took out 60k loans and payed them all back, why do I get screwed for being responsible?

No, this idea is BS, sorry. No bailouts.

[LayZayFaire]

Who's gonna be on the hook for this? The taxpayers?

I majored in electrical engineering, took out 60k loans and payed them all back, why do I get screwed for being responsible?

No, this idea is BS, sorry. No bailouts.

No bailouts.

Sure, the government was at fault. We ALL know that. This is Ron Paul Forums.

But it takes two to tango. The housing market wasn't created just by the federal reserve. It had an equal counterpart of broke-ambitious-fool-ass suckers. The solution is to not bail ANYONE out. The banks learn their lesson and the people that were suckers learn their lesson. Anything else simply feeds what we term now as "moral hazard".

Same thing with higher education. Except dumbass students took out loans to study worthless stuff. They took out a mortgage without the house, LOL. At least you can see your house and live in it. Higher ed relies on the hope of future gains. No house that people bought in housing bubble is worth zero. Can't say the same about college degrees. Wow, and it took four or more years to realize this. If scamming is this easy, I'm an idiot for working a day job.

[nobody's_hero]

I see a lot of talk about whether or not the students should have to pay off the debt.

I haven't seen a lot of talk about whether or not the students can pay off the debt.

That's the thing about bankruptcy, you can't just file it because you don't want to pay someone back; you have to show that you can't pay someone back. The problem is that the government has gotten involved so heavily in loans (not just student, but housing, credit card, etc. loans as well) that bankruptcy has become a thing of the past.

Why? Because banks can't make interest off debt that has been liquidated, and the largest banks own the government. I'm not sure how much has changed on this since the Federal government stopped allowing student loans through banks. I would not be surprised if the major banks played a role in handing over the responsibility of making student loans to the government; perhaps the banks realized that even they were in over their heads.

Here's a bigger question for you:

We have so much debt in this economy (education, housing, plastic), is it even possible to pay the principal amount back with interest? Are we to the point that we might actually have to print more money, just so there's enough in existence to pay interest (which grows regardless)? If we aren't there yet, do we really want to push people to remain committed to paying back their (impossibly inflated) debts with interest, if it could have repercussive effects on our currency?

In other words, if you want to restore the purchasing power of the dollar, there may be a silver lining when it comes to erasing a few $billion from existence.

In summary, it is not enough to argue this issue from a moral/immoral standpoint. We might be better served if we view things in terms of what is economically and mathematically possible.

What do you do when it actually becomes more detrimental to economic growth to keep debt on the books, rather than allow bankruptcy and liquidation to occur? (not just referring to student loans, here)

Also keep in mind that bankruptcy is not a painless process for the debtor, nor should it be, since both the debtor and the lender played a role in forming the bad loans.

[frodus24]

Student loan debt will surpass 1 TRILLION dollars at the end of this year. Defaults are up and students are placing loans into deferment or forbearance status which means that they are not making payments. Many financial aid administrators agree that there is a student loan bubble looming in the near future. This scares the hell out of me.

[Endgame]

Who's gonna be on the hook for this? The taxpayers?

I majored in electrical engineering, took out 60k loans and payed them all back, why do I get screwed for being responsible?

No, this idea is BS, sorry. No bailouts.

Hey what if you bought gold and then it crashed 25% over the next month? Or paid off a mortgage and your home equity crashed?

What you paid has no bearing on anything.

[Danke]

Since you seem to want to make this personal for whatever reason, no, I have never thought SS would be available by the time I retired.

I think you are being ridiculous, however, with your claim that SS is voluntary. It is taken out of your paycheck by your employer, at the government's directive. So how exactly is that voluntary?

I think you made it personal by giving your personal opinion on both subjects.

[Ricky201]

I see a lot of talk about whether or not the students should have to pay off the debt.

I haven't seen a lot of talk about whether or not the students can pay off the debt.

That's the thing about bankruptcy, you can't just file it because you don't want to pay someone back; you have to show that you can't pay someone back. The problem is that the government has gotten involved so heavily in loans (not just student, but housing, credit card, etc. loans as well) that bankruptcy has become a thing of the past.

Why? Because banks can't make interest off debt that has been liquidated, and the largest banks own the government. I'm not sure how much has changed on this since the Federal government stopped allowing student loans through banks. I would not be surprised if the major banks played a role in handing over the responsibility of making student loans to the government; perhaps the banks realized that even they were in over their heads.

Here's a bigger question for you:

We have so much debt in this economy (education, housing, plastic), is it even possible to pay the principal amount back with interest? Are we to the point that we might actually have to print more money, just so there's enough in existence to pay interest (which grows regardless)? If we aren't there yet, do we really want to push people to remain committed to paying back their (impossibly inflated) debts with interest, if it could have repercussive effects on our currency?

In other words, if you want to restore the purchasing power of the dollar, there may be a silver lining when it comes to erasing a few $billion from existence.

In summary, it is not enough to argue this issue from a moral/immoral standpoint. We might be better served if we view things in terms of what is economically and mathematically possible.

What do you do when it actually becomes more detrimental to economic growth to keep debt on the books, rather than allow bankruptcy and liquidation to occur? (not just referring to student loans, here)

Also keep in mind that bankruptcy is not a painless process for the debtor, nor should it be, since both the debtor and the lender played a role in forming the bad loans.

+ rep

Thanks for putting some sense in this topic.

[Jake Ralston]

Folks here are missing something.

Friend A. takes out very large loans to go to the more prestigious schools like Berkeley, Stanford, or UCLA. That kind of "name brand" education comes with a high price.

Friend B. decided to work part-time and pay their own way through community college and perhaps take a few minor loans to finish up the BA at a state school like SJSU.

Friend A. takes a large risk.

Friend B. takes a small risk.

Now the government has arrived to forgive Friend A. his debts with little to no repercussions. All the while Friend B. (the wiser, more responsible one) has paid off every cent of both education and debts. Is this how our economic society should work?

When reading the advice of sound economists like Peter Schiff, are we taught to conduct business this way?

And people wonder why we are on the brink of Socialism, everyone wants their own personal handout, and personal responsibility is eroding away...

[Endgame]

Fuck Sallie Mae and their government-gotten gains. Take away the government protection of their bad debt. Let them go bankrupt.

[Zippyjuan]

So it is saying that people who willingly borrowed money and signed an agreement to pay that money back should be able to steal that money and not bother paying it back? Then all financial contracts should be voidable at the whim of either side. Let us apply that to the housing market as well. Those who don't want to (or are unable to) pay back their mortgages should be then able to keep their homes for free.

[CaptainAmerica]

I'm ok with it as long as they return their degrees and aren't allowed to claim them for employment purposes. You want to claim them then you gotta pay for them. YEAH seriously what the HELLL is going on!? I work,and I live an honest life, I DONT pull loans that I cant pay for and these assholes are going to get free ride scholarships because they decided they can't pay the loans off? Rewarding people who can't even keep their end of the contract is just STUPID

[CaptainAmerica]

Lew Rockwell is advocating a "Too big to fail" policy,this is bS

[LibertyEagle]

I think you made it personal by giving your personal opinion on both subjects.

Everyone is giving their personal opinion. You are the one, however, that chose to personally attack.

[loveshiscountry]

Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist
You can get a degree in stripping?

Why, you interested?
I'd just like to audit the class.

[heavenlyboy34]

Lew Rockwell is advocating a "Too big to fail" policy,this is bS
Is it significantly different than RP's opinion that the national debt should be repudiated?

[CaptainAmerica]

Is it significantly different than RP's opinion that the national debt should be repudiated?
Yes since the government gets their line of credit directly from the Federal Reserve and against the will of the people.

[heavenlyboy34]

Yes since the government gets their line of credit directly from the Federal Reserve and against the will of the people.Sometimes. The Gov'ment also borrows from foreigners. (the Chinese being the biggest debt holders, last I checked) The government borrows 41 cents of every dollar it spends (latest stats I can find)

[LibertyEagle]

The student loan bubble isn't the only debt bubble where we need repudiation. Washington's blog has covered this (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/07/economics-professor-well-have-never.html) before.


Federal aid to higher ed has enriched the administrators and the professoriate, but decimated the kids, who end up with huge debts for dumbed-down lectures in huge, anonymous halls. Student debt now totals $1 trillion. If we want a rationalization of higher-ed, and to free the slaves, let's repudiate these debts, and end all student aid. Once again, smart kids could work their way through school, their academic overlords in (fewer) colleges and universities would earn market salaries, and the taxpayers would be partially freed, too. (Thanks to Robert Hiett)

This is posited along with the assumption that there will be no more student aid.

[heavenlyboy34]

Such as? I thought we were for letting the market decide.

That's not an excuse, hb. If they don't pay, it is the American people who are stuck with the bill. Be honest. You know that.

Absolutely. But, that means some students will likely not be able to get student loans, you realize.[/QUOTE]

The market should absolutely decide. If the market were truly allowed to decide, it would not choose the model that most people use. (just as rational people don't grossly overpay for other products. As others have noted on RPFs, with a traditional college education, you wind up with the equivalent of a mortgage without the house.)

We would see tremendous growth in organizations like http://www.earlycolleges.org/ in which a student can earn a BA while still in high school at a fraction of the cost of a University. As people move away from the old-fashioned college model, colleges would (and will) be forced to find ways to lower costs. This will allow the people who won't be able to get loans (as you mentioned) to pay for the education without resorting to student loans.

It is primarily due to government intervention in loans and subsidization of public (and some "private") colleges that costs remain so high. Then there's the silly anti-discrimintation laws which prevent employers from testing for intelligence-forcing them to require a degree, thus driving up demand for a degree (and tuition) artificially.

[LibertyEagle]

I agree with the government getting out of the education business, hb. I just do not agree with bailouts for people who willingly borrowed money via student loans.

[heavenlyboy34]

LOL at kids that went to college and pursued worthless degrees like political science, communications, management (You think I want some fresh out of college punk managing me? Fuck you.), public administration, philosophy, etc. and now can't find jobs. Who studies this shit?

All of you complaining didn't get conned. The trap was right in front of you and you walked right into it. I ain't paying for yall.
They aren't necessarily "worthless" in the current environment. As I pointed out earlier, people get these degrees because employers are forced to require a degree in many cases.

[Danke]

Everyone is giving their personal opinion. You are the one, however, that chose to personally attack.

:rolleyes:

[heavenlyboy34]

I agree with the government getting out of the education business, hb. I just do not agree with bailouts for people who willingly borrowed money via student loans.
Fair enough. I agree with that. But no one else should be bailed out either-and the banks and various other folks who have gotten federal bailouts should reimburse taxpayers either directly or through tax refunds (or some other indirect form). No special treatment for ANYONE.

[LibertyEagle]

Fair enough. I agree with that. But no one else should be bailed out either-and the banks and various other folks who have gotten federal bailouts should reimburse taxpayers either directly or through tax refunds (or some other indirect form). No special treatment for ANYONE.

You won't get any argument from me on that. I don't agree with ANY bailouts, subsidies, or anything of the sort.

[amy31416]

Why are student loans so special that the debt can not be discharged via bankruptcy like any other debt? I'm sure it has to do with some special deal between the government and the banks. It'd make more sense to change the bankruptcy laws than it does to promote "forgiveness" of loans or some other weird crap. And for those who want to see those who declare bankruptcy wear a scarlet letter of sorts, I'm pretty sure they do. My sister-in-law had to declare years ago, and it's a stigma that will follow her around financially for the rest of her life.

I'm against child support in it's current form, but at least that makes some kind of sense that bankruptcy can't get you out of your responsibility to a child that you helped create.

I dunno...there's no right answer in this current climate of economic mayhem.

[heavenlyboy34]

Why are student loans so special that the debt can not be discharged via bankruptcy like any other debt? I'm sure it has to do with some special deal between the government and the banks. It'd make more sense to change the bankruptcy laws than it does to promote "forgiveness" of loans or some other weird crap. And for those who want to see those who declare bankruptcy wear a scarlet letter of sorts, I'm pretty sure they do. My sister-in-law had to declare years ago, and it's a stigma that will follow her around financially for the rest of her life.

I'm against child support in it's current form, but at least that makes some kind of sense that bankruptcy can't get you out of your responsibility to a child that you helped create.

I dunno...there's no right answer in this current climate of economic mayhem.
The student loan industry successfully lobbied congress for that law. Democracy in action. ;) :(

[nobody's_hero]

The student loan industry successfully lobbied congress for that law. Democracy in action. ;) :(

Are you sure it wasn't the banks? Remember, you don't pay interest on liquidated (erased) debt. It benefits the banks to keep people in debt, because they make their money on interest.

We can't just have people walking away from it all like they used to be able to do. Or could we? Should we? I think so. Maybe banks would be more cautious about who they lend to if they actually had something to lose in the deal.

Blame the drunks or blame the bartender, you know?

[heavenlyboy34]

Are you sure it wasn't the banks? Remember, you don't pay interest on liquidated (erased) debt. It benefits the banks to keep people in debt, because they make their money on interest.

We can't just have people walking away from it all like they used to be able to do. Or could we? Should we? I think so. Maybe banks would be more cautious about who they lend to if they actually had something to lose in the deal.

Blame the drunks or blame the bartender, you know?

The banks may have been part of it, but it is well known that the loan industry played a key role:
http://www.declineoftheempire.com/2011/10/enshrining-student-debt-slavery-into-law.html

SIEGEL — And I gather, this change didn't just happen in the bankruptcy law. There was a lot of lobbying that went into it.
Mr. BURD — The student loan industry lobbied hard to put this exemption into the bill. For example, between 1999 and 2005 - the years in which the bill was under consideration - Sally Mae, the nation's largest student loan provider spent $9 million lobbying Congress.
In addition, during that period of time, Sally Mae's PAC provided more than $130,000 in campaign contributions to members of the House and Senate Judiciary Committee, the key panels in charge of legislation.
SIEGEL — And their agenda was essentially to make this kind of student loan a non-dischargeable debt, as they say in…
Mr. BURD — Right, to make sure that private loans could not be discharged through the bankruptcy laws.
SIEGEL — Now, before 2005, there were federal loans that did enjoy that kind of protection from the bankruptcy laws. So this was extending a protection that existed?
Mr. BURD: Yes, that's correct. Since 1998, students haven't been able to discharge their federal loans through bankruptcy, lawmakers have been tightening it up these restrictions since the 1970s, when there were reports of deadbeat borrowers who are taking out student loans without having any intension of repaying them. So there has been this restriction on federal loans. The loan industry, I believe, argued that all educational loans should have the same restrictions on them.
SIEGEL — The story though of students who would take out student loans with no intention of repaying them and declare bankruptcy where relatively early in their adult lives they didn't have many assets at stake. I haven't found any actual data describing how common this was.
Mr. BURD — No, there isn't [any] data. A lot of these restrictions have been put on because of anecdotal information...
...with the private loan program, this isn't the case. And it's almost as if the government has given a blank check to the lenders to say, you know, charge whatever interest rates you want and we'll make sure that borrowers will have to repay you. So there's a lot more - I think there's a lot more anger and frustration about the fact that students can't get their private loans discharged. The government doesn't have a stake in it.

Well! I think this story speaks for itself. Let's fast-forward to 2011. Quoting Post-Gazette reporter Tim Grant again—
With the average debt for all four-year college graduates this year at $27,200, according to the nonprofit organization Project on Student Debt (http://projectonstudentdebt.org/), and graduates facing what economists describe as the worst job market since the Great Depression, there is a higher likelihood many of them have not found work or are not earning enough to repay their loans.
It's no wonder the college loan default rate is on the rise.
This year's student loan default rate stands at 8.8 percent, compared to 7 percent last year, according to Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of financial aid websites finaid.org and fastweb.com. That translates to about 320,000 borrowers owing $2.4 billion who have made no payments on their student loans since last September.

And yet today, the majority of Americans can not understand why young people are occupying Wall Street and other city centers. Those in service to the financial elites ridicule the protesters (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/opinion/panic-of-the-plutocrats.html), or compare them to Nazis (http://www.declineoftheempire.com/2011/10/the-authoritarian-personality.html). I hope you're keeping score, because now is an excellent time to separate the wheat from the chaff, the lap dogs from the quality human beings. Now is an excellent time to see the Empire for what it truly is.

[amy31416]

Well, I'm not surprised. Thanks for the link, HB.

[Danke]

Why are student loans so special that the debt can not be discharged via bankruptcy like any other debt? I'm sure it has to do with some special deal between the government and the banks. It'd make more sense to change the bankruptcy laws than it does to promote "forgiveness" of loans or some other weird crap. And for those who want to see those who declare bankruptcy wear a scarlet letter of sorts, I'm pretty sure they do. My sister-in-law had to declare years ago, and it's a stigma that will follow her around financially for the rest of her life.

I'm against child support in it's current form, but at least that makes some kind of sense that bankruptcy can't get you out of your responsibility to a child that you helped create.

I dunno...there's no right answer in this current climate of economic mayhem.


If the banks lent real money, students would have a real debt.

[TCE]

First, the couple of people who claimed we're idiots for going to college and are only looking out for ourselves and so we're statists. As for me, I will have a degree and no debt by next year. I have worked for the past five years and went to a school I could afford without becoming a debt slave. So that is an incorrect stereotype of our position.

Essentially, my position is that bankruptcy laws should not be only for credit card debt, but student loans as well as it was before 2004. No bailouts, forgiveness, etc. The banks lobbied Congress and got a sweetheart deal. Thus, the entire system is wrought with moral hazard. Now banks can give insane amounts of loans without worrying about the consequences because they know the students cannot escape their debts. They turn around, use funds for any kind of risky investment, then cry to the Federal Reverse for a bailout when it fails. Part of the problem is the new bankruptcy law and it piles on the bailout dilemma.

[TCE]

EDIT: Double Post. Please delete.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Good thing I was a responsible individual and actually worked to get the money to pay for college. I'll rage if I have to subsidize people who can't pay loans they signed up for.

[ZanZibar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6kLLFJ-6BE&feature=uploademail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hAT3j_pEoo&feature=uploademail