Social Secuity Opt-Out clarification

[pulp8721]

In an article in the examiner they report this:



Much of the monies saved will go to save social security for the elderly and is offering an opt-out option for workers 25 years old and under in the first year. He eluded to workers even older than 25 have expressed wanting to opt-out and that it could be done as time went on.


hxxp://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-washington-dc/ron-paul-lays-out-comprehensive-economic-plan-that-balances-budget

I was worried like others about the age cap for the opt-out, as I will be 26 in 2013. Looks like I may still get the opportunity.

[guitarlifter]

I am 22 years old, and I would be so, so happy if I could opt out of social security. Just how much is taken out of one's paycheck for social security anyway? If I make $340 before taxes every two weeks by working at GNC part time, how much would be taken out for social security? I have no children, single, and am a dependent since I still live with my parents.

[emazur]

I am 22 years old, and I would be so, so happy if I could opt out of social security. Just how much is taken out of one's paycheck for social security anyway? If I make $340 before taxes every two weeks by working at GNC part time, how much would be taken out for social security? I have no children, single, and am a dependent since I still live with my parents.

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/taxRates.html
Social Security tax is 12.4%, you pay half and the employer pays half - which makes 6.2% "invisible" to workers and makes the tax easier to swallow (but you have no choice to negotiate your salary up to 6.2%). Self employed pay the whole damn 12.4%. There's also a 2.9% Medicare tax (also paid half and half) that makes up the rest of the payroll tax, but I don't think Paul's plan touches that (haven't checked yet).

[noxagol]

I certainly hope there is not an age limit and I just read the proposal from the front page of this site and I did not see one. I'm already over it and I want OUT. It's the biggest deduction out of my paycheck that I will never see. I could easily use the extra SIX THOUSAND DOLLARS a year that is taken from me and my wife.

[mrsat_98]

I opted out years ago. There has been a form to withdraw for years.

http://www.ssa.gov/online/ssa-521.pdf

[matt0611]

I opted out years ago. There has been a form to withdraw for years.

http://www.ssa.gov/online/ssa-521.pdf

WHAT???!!?

Are you saying you pay no social security tax?

How have I not heard about this?

I don't believe you...I have heard many times that there is no way to opt-out.

[Elwar]

WHAT???!!?

Are you saying you pay no social security tax?

How have I not heard about this?

I don't believe you...I have heard many times that there is no way to opt-out.

It is as easy as opting out of the income tax.

Of course, the mafia does not like when you do that. FEAR keeps people in line.

[eduardo89]

I hope the plan is you can opt-out whenever you want. I'm sure there are many 30-something year olds who have not paid that much into the system and they'd be better off getting out in the long run that they wouldn't care losing what theyve paid in so far.

[smithtg]

what would be really nice is if when you opt out they REFUND everything you have contributed. I wouldnt even request it with interest. Just total up my contributions for the last 15/20 years and send me a check. Im sure I could find something better to do with it

[erowe1]

The problem with all these ideas is that none of them truly allow people to opt out.

Social Security is a redistribution from current contributors to current recipients. A true opt out would not mean that you don't pay and then you don't get money in the future. It would mean that you don't pay and current recipients don't get money right now. As long as current recipients still get their money, that means that one way or another, payroll tax or not, every current taxpayer is still paying.

What should happen is that there should be an optional system available for people who want to give money to SS recipients, allowing them to contribute however much they want for that. And then the amount paid out that year can only be however much they collect from those voluntary contributions. And then down the road it will be the same. What you end up getting will only be however much the next generation voluntarily gives you.

[erowe1]

what would be really nice is if when you opt out they REFUND everything you have contributed. I wouldnt even request it with interest. Just total up my contributions for the last 15/20 years and send me a check. Im sure I could find something better to do with it

Your contributions weren't for you, they were for other people. You've already gotten all the benefit you will ever get for them (i.e. money that you didn't have to give your grandparents out of your own pocket).

Any money they give you won't be a refund, it will be a redistribution from someone else paying into the system.

[Danke]

WHAT???!!?

Are you saying you pay no social security tax?

How have I not heard about this?

I don't believe you...I have heard many times that there is no way to opt-out.

It is a voluntary Act.

But if you work for any sizable company, the payroll dept. will send your money to the govenment no matter what your protestations are, typically.

http://losthorizons.com/tax/taximages/1ssn.jpg

http://losthorizons.com/tax/taximages/BorelliSSAResponse.jpg

[smithtg]

The problem with all these ideas is that none of them truly allow people to opt out.

Social Security is a redistribution from current contributors to current recipients. A true opt out would not mean that you don't pay and then you don't get money in the future. It would mean that you don't pay and current recipients don't get money right now. As long as current recipients still get their money, that means that one way or another, payroll tax or not, every current taxpayer is still paying.

What should happen is that there should be an optional system available for people who want to give money to SS recipients, allowing them to contribute however much they want for that. And then the amount paid out that year can only be however much they collect from those voluntary contributions. And then down the road it will be the same. What you end up getting will only be however much the next generation voluntarily gives you.

the overall goal should be to end the program. Wind it down, end it. Make opt out optional, and then when the congress sees that everyone is opting out, come up with a plan to wind it down and distribute the crumbs that are left.

another idea is to end all contributions, send everyone who contributed an IOU that they can cash in when they are 65 or 70 or whatver age. They could take a lump sum early or when they reach the maturity age but they would take a hit if they did (kind of like the lottery). This way the total outlays are known at the start and the congress could budget xx amount each year to pay off the debt of the program. sure they would need an alternate revenue source to pay the IOU's, but at least at some point the end of the program could be predicted. This would make all the people who contributed a bondholder of such; of course they would be bascially contibuting to the general fund to pay themselves back which is kind of dumb, so maybe just ending the thing altogether has the same net effect

[smithtg]

Your contributions weren't for you, they were for other people. You've already gotten all the benefit you will ever get for them (i.e. money that you didn't have to give your grandparents out of your own pocket).

Any money they give you won't be a refund, it will be a redistribution from someone else paying into the system.

I know that, but what is 'advertised' (which it basically a lie) is that there are all these IOU's for the trust fund and the "money is there" If the "money is there" you should be able to get a refund. Now the way they will raise "the money" is by taxing you to pay you back, so the net effect is 0 and you are still left holding the pile of shit.

[erowe1]

the overall goal should be to end the program. Wind it down, end it. Make opt out optional, and then when the congress sees that everyone is opting out, come up with a plan to wind it down and distribute the crumbs that are left.

another idea is to end all contributions, send everyone who contributed an IOU that they can cash in when they are 65 or 70 or whatver age. They could take a lump sum early or when they reach the maturity age but they would take a hit if they did (kind of like the lottery). This way the total outlays are known at the start and the congress could budget xx amount each year to pay off the debt of the program. sure they would need an alternate revenue source to pay the IOU's, but at least at some point the end of the program could be predicted. This would make all the people who contributed a bondholder of such; of course they would be bascially contibuting to the general fund to pay themselves back which is kind of dumb, so maybe just ending the thing altogether has the same net effect

But again, there's no true opt out unless it involves cutting the money that goes to current SS recipients. As long as they keep getting their money, current tax payers will continue being the source it comes from, whether those current tax payers think they opted out or not.

The best case scenario would be if they never paid another penny to anyone. No refund, nothing.

And then if poor young people wanted to give some of their own money to rich old people, they could do that on their own.

[Peace&Freedom]

The technical issue why the government construes it can continue to associate you with the number is that you are considered in a franchise or fiduciary relationship with a trust that is permanently connected to the number. You have to not only opt out, but resign your fiduciary relationship with the trust that is attached to the SS number. Once a sworn notarized statement to this effect is sent (jointly to IRS and SSA) with associated documents, and goes unanswered by a similar sworn statement by the government in 30 days, it is considered undisputed fact that you are no longer associated with the SSN, period. Example of paperwork:

http://sedm.org/Forms/Tax/Withholding/Form56/AboutIRSForm56.htm
http://sedm.org/Forms/AvoidingFranch/SSTrustIndenture.pdf

What most people do is take the easy route and robotically sign off on 'employment' forms that are loaded with words of art where the IRS makes you sign off as being a "taxpayer" and SSN slave, who works as an "employee" for an "employer" (terms defined in the law as someone who receives money from federal activity or the federal government). If you are a private worker who works for a private sector company, as most everybody is, why would you do that? Alternate paperwork can be presented at the workplace to (appropriately worded W8Ben, Affidavits etc) to reflect your status (the simplest solution is to contract to work for a job only as a LLC under contract, in which case you can bypass W4s, I-9s and similar docs that coerce you into misstating your status in order to get paid). No money is withheld, as the LLC will be expected to handle tax issues on their own. To fight the tax slavery system, you have to not put yourself in a position where you appear to have consented to be in agreement with the IRS in the first place.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

I will opt out in a heartbeat. I'm glad there is an option for above 25 Americans to opt out aswell!

[Zippyjuan]

One problem with an "opt out" option is that current Social Security payments come from current Social Security tax payments. There isn't any sort of actual "trust fund". Ron Paul has said he would honor the country's commitments to those who are qualified to receive Social Security benefits (you become elgible - or qualified, even for a small amount, after your first year's worth of reported and taxed income) so the "outlays" portion of that equasion will not go away for decades (not until all those who are currently qualified for any benefits are all dead). If you allow people to opt out, the money coming in is reduced. If you want to keep making payments, you have to replace that money which will mean other forms of taxes or government borrowing.