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FrankRep
10-12-2011, 07:41 AM
Occupy L.A. Speaker: Violence will be Necessary to Achieve Our Goals (http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/11/occupy-l-a-speaker-violence-will-be-necessary-to-achieve-our-goals/)


Citizen journalist Ringo captured this speaker at the Occupy Los Angeles camp a few days ago letting the cat out of the bag: After dismissing nonviolence as a dead end, he admits that for the Occupiers to achieve their goals, violence and bloodshed will be necessary:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlPY9AfQFqI&feature=player_embedded


Occupy L.A. Speaker: “One of the speakers said the solution is nonviolent movement. No, my friend. I’ll give you two examples: French Revolution, and Indian so-called Revolution.

Gandhi, Gandhi today is, with respect to all of you, Gandhi today is a tumor that the ruling class is using constantly to mislead us. French Revolution made fundamental transformation. But it was bloody.

India, the result of Gandhi, is 600 million people living in maximum poverty.

So, ultimately, the bourgeosie won’t go without violent means. Revolution! Yes, revolution that is led by the working class.

Long live revolution! Long live socialism!”

Crowd: [Cheers.]



Related articles:

Big Soros Money Linked to "Occupy Wall Street" (http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/9269-big-soros-money-linked-to-occupy-wall-street)

Unions, Socialists Join Forces to "Occupy Wall Street" (http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/9214-unions-socialists-join-forces-to-occupy-wall-street)

“Day of Rage” Wall St. Occupation Sparks Fears (http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/8967-day-of-rage-wall-st-occupation-sparks-fears)

George Soros Funded by the House of Rothschild (http://thenewamerican.com/economy/commentary-mainmenu-43/7323-george-soros-funded-by-the-house-of-rothschild)

George Soros Touts China as Leader of New World Order (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/north-america-mainmenu-36/5226-george-soros-touts-china-as-leader-of-new-world-order)

Former SEIU Union Official Exposes Plot to Collapse U.S. Economy (http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/6808-former-union-official-exposes-plot-to-collapse-us-economy)

Union Leader Describes Plan to Destroy Capitalism (http://thenewamerican.com/opinion/sam-blumenfeld/6812-union-leader-describes-plan-to-destroy-capitalism)

Union Leader Proposes Economic Terrorism — Where Is the DOJ? (http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/6809-union-leader-proposes-economic-terrorism-where-is-the-doj)

Fed Manipulations in the Crosshairs (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/economy/markets-mainmenu-45/3731-fed-manipulations-in-the-crosshairs)

FrankRep
10-12-2011, 07:43 AM
Rand Paul: Obama’s Rhetoric Could Turn ‘Occupy Wall Street’ Violent (http://www.infowars.com/rand-paul-obamas-rhetoric-could-turn-occupy-wall-street-violent/)

Infowars.com
October 7, 2011


During a Fox Business interview with Judge Andrew Napolitano, Senator Rand Paul warned that Barack Obama’s implicit support for the grievances of the ‘Occupy Wall Street’ protesters could provoke them to turn into a violent mob.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb0ATUnHABE&feature=player_embedded


Scaling the heights of hypocrisy once again (http://www.prisonplanet.com/wall-street-puppet-obama-sympathizes-with-anti-wall-street-protests.html), Barack Obama – whose 2008 campaign was funded (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638) by Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Citigroup, and Morgan Stanley – sympathized with the OWS protesters yesterday while grandstanding as the man to bring Wall Street back in line, despite the fact that his own cabinet is full of former Wall Street executives (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13208) and he is even more reliant on Wall Street (http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/obama-wallstreet-electioncampaign/2011/07/22/id/404563) for his 2012 presidential run.

“He’s almost saying, I support them, I’d be out there with them,” Napolitano remarked in reference to Obama’s speech yesterday.

“As far as this Occupy Wall Street movement goes, you know I see it sort of like a Paris mob,” Paul told Napolitano. “I see the president’s rhetoric of envy inflaming the public.”

“I see this enflaming this Paris mob that I hope ultimately doesn’t result in lawlessness where they say ‘gosh those nice iPads through the window should be mine and why don’t I throw a brick through the window to get them because rich people don’t deserve to have them when I can’t have one,” said Paul.

Napolitano pointed out that the protesters, besides calls to raise taxes which is nothing more than an Obama administration talking point (http://www.prisonplanet.com/why-are-ows-protesters-repeating-white-house-talking-points.html) and would only serve to cripple the middle class, do have legitimate grievances and that a proportion of them are End the Fed advocates.

The Kentucky Senator highlighted the hypocrisy of some of the protesters vowing not to work for a corporation while carrying around expensive consumer products.

“They’re on their iPhone made by Apple incorporated, they’re wearing designer jeans their parents bought for them, that’s the kind of stuff I’m annoyed with when they say corporations are evil – corporations are businesses.”

Paul then added that he does agree with the protesters in their opposition to taxpayers being forced to pick up the tab for banker bailouts. The Senator has vehemently supported efforts (http://www.dailypaul.com/148405/dr-ron-paul-says-rand-and-i-will-introduce-legislation-to-end-the-fed-first-day) by his father Ron Paul to audit the Federal Reserve and has spoken at End the Fed rallies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xbdET9o1pI&feature=channel_video_title).

While the riots that hit Paris and other metropolitan areas of France last year were driven by genuine grievances against the state for raising the age of retirement and other harsh austerity cuts even as European banks received trillions in bailout funds, the demonstrations were quickly discredited when black-hooded anarchists joined in (http://www.prisonplanet.com/will-americans-follow-french-example-of-mass-civil-unrest.html) and started smashing up private property.

In addition, as we documented at the time (http://www.prisonplanet.com/the-rioting-underclass-product-of-a-diseased-culture.html), although many sought to mischaracterize the London riots as the spearhead of a new revolution, the event quickly fizzled out with the participants having targeted their rage not against political or banking institutions, but against outlets of JD Sports and Apple stores. The entire episode was exploited by petty criminal opportunists to loot high-end consumer goods.

That’s why it’s important the ‘Occupy Wall Street’ demonstrators don’t allow their movement to be hijacked by self-proclaimed anarchists who are actually Marxists, and the deluge of Obama campaign fronts who have attempted to infiltrate (http://www.prisonplanet.com/occupy-wall-street-stands-in-solidarity-with-obama-front-group.html) and misdirect the protests – with MoveOn.org prime amongst them.


SOURCE:
http://www.infowars.com/rand-paul-obamas-rhetoric-could-turn-occupy-wall-street-violent/

klamath
10-12-2011, 07:52 AM
Evil creep.

Sematary
10-12-2011, 07:55 AM
Does anyone truly believe that peaceful revolution is possible in this corrupt society?
Even if we manage to get Ron Paul elected, what are the odds that people who control the money will have him assassinated within weeks of beginning his first term. He's a threat to them, which is why they marginalize him and if he ever came to control, they would kill him. In the end, peaceful revolution is virtually impossible.

wgadget
10-12-2011, 07:55 AM
Ron Paul would disagree with this strategy.

Cowlesy
10-12-2011, 07:58 AM
Not shocking that the people who want to use government force to help people and to confiscate from other people, feels the need to use violence to achieve its goals.

Color me shocked.

/sarc

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 08:08 AM
It does not surprise me that some do not agree with the Non Violent approach.

As much as I would like to remain nonviolent, the state always resorts to violence. But those that started this have been committed to a nonviolent protest just as the Ron Paul revolution has.

And they do share the goal of ending the Federal Reserve.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?322139-Wayback-Machine.-%28when-did-this-start-%29

Sematary
10-12-2011, 08:11 AM
Not shocking that the people who want to use government force to help people and to confiscate from other people, feels the need to use violence to achieve its goals.

Color me shocked.

/sarc

Do you think massive governmental change will ever be accomplished in this nation without violence?
I'd like to think so but I don't believe it.

acptulsa
10-12-2011, 08:18 AM
Do you think massive governmental change will ever be accomplished in this nation without violence?
I'd like to think so but I don't believe it.

So long as Americans define themselves as being ruled by the Constitution it is possible. So long as it is possible it must be attempted. It must be attempted for legitimacy. It must be attempted because anything else could end the guarantees of our God-given rights wholesale, rather than incrementally. It must be attempted for humanity.

klamath
10-12-2011, 08:23 AM
Do you think massive governmental change will ever be accomplished in this nation without violence?
I'd like to think so but I don't believe it. SO now you have crossed the line into soviet era Marxism. If you can't convince people to your way of thinking peacefully, Kill them! God and we think we have people that aren't as bad as neocons in this movement.

Sematary
10-12-2011, 08:26 AM
SO now you have crossed the line into soviet era Marxism. If you can't convince people to your way of thinking peacefully, Kill them! God and we think we have people that aren't as bad as neocons in this movement.

Get real. Do you think the powers that be are going to go down without a fight? Really? I bet you believe that the Arab spring could have been accomplished with a peaceful sit in as well.

I would LOVE to believe that this country can be transformed back to a Constitutional representative republic with a peaceful revolution and maybe it's possible, but I don't see the people with the power giving it up that easy.

Don't be so melodramatic.

Sematary
10-12-2011, 08:29 AM
SO now you have crossed the line into soviet era Marxism. If you can't convince people to your way of thinking peacefully, Kill them! God and we think we have people that aren't as bad as neocons in this movement.

By the way, just to point out the melodramatic fallacy of your post - you just called the founding fathers soviet era marxists.

Let me remind you of something:


When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

acptulsa
10-12-2011, 08:36 AM
By the way, just to point out the melodramatic fallacy of your post - you just called the founding fathers soviet era marxists.

Let me remind you of something:

'When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another...'

You aren't advocating this at all. Are you? You're talking civil war. And I want no part of it.

Thank you for playing. Now stop trying to make me guilty by vague association with you.

Sematary
10-12-2011, 08:41 AM
'When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another...'

You aren't advocating this at all. Are you? You're talking civil war. And I want no part of it.

Thank you for playing. Now stop trying to make me guilty by vague association with you.

I'm not "advocating" anything. I'm telling you what I think is going to happen. It's called an opinion. I "advocate" a change in government through our current system but I don't believe that it will be enough or that it will happen that way. Do I think it will come to a civil war? It might. Just looking at the lay of the land and making a call.

Sematary
10-12-2011, 08:42 AM
'When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another...'

You aren't advocating this at all. Are you? You're talking civil war. And I want no part of it.

Thank you for playing. Now stop trying to make me guilty by vague association with you.

Are you so afraid of the government now that you are afraid to express your opinions?

klamath
10-12-2011, 08:43 AM
Get real. Do you think the powers that be are going to go down without a fight? Really? I bet you believe that the Arab spring could have been accomplished with a peaceful sit in as well.

I would LOVE to believe that this country can be transformed back to a Constitutional representative republic with a peaceful revolution and maybe it's possible, but I don't see the people with the power giving it up that easy.

Don't be so melodramatic. The people with power were given that power by the people and OWS is trying to give even more power to those in power. OH really Arab spring? I suspose you are suporting the nato bombing as well. I love how france is being held up as an example. After the revolution France went into it biggist world domination tour ever. All a violent revolution does is get a lot of innocent people killed and the government go right back to the way they were or worse because the people really haven't changed. Your statements show that the fundamental nature of humans hasn't changed.

acptulsa
10-12-2011, 08:43 AM
I'm not "advocating" anything. I'm telling you what I think is going to happen. It's called an opinion. I "advocate" a change in government through our current system but I don't believe that it will be enough or that it will happen that way. Do I think it will come to a civil war? It might. Just looking at the lay of the land and making a call.

Thank you for clearing that up. It's important that this be clear.

klamath
10-12-2011, 08:47 AM
Our constitution can about in spite of the revolution not because of it. All the revolution did was break our government from england.

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 08:48 AM
I'm not "advocating" anything. I'm telling you what I think is going to happen. It's called an opinion. I "advocate" a change in government through our current system but I don't believe that it will be enough or that it will happen that way. Do I think it will come to a civil war? It might. Just looking at the lay of the land and making a call.

Some people have trouble with the concept of expecting something other that what one wishes.
I want peace.
I expect violence.
I do not wish for violence, but recognize that it has always been the State response at long as governments have existed.
Having a non violent protest only works till the government responds. They always respond violently.

Pericles
10-12-2011, 09:24 AM
Not shocking that the people who want to use government force to help people and to confiscate from other people, feels the need to use violence to achieve its goals.

Color me shocked.

/sarc

They are so used to their targets being too intimidated or civilized to respond. But, actually starting violence will lead to a reaction those idiots don't expect - there will be people who will fight back, and know how to do so.

AuH20
10-12-2011, 09:47 AM
This guy seems to have his vitriol pointed at the wrong people, but in theory he's correct. The plantation owner isn't going to just surrender the power he's accumulated over the last few decades, just because the electorate submits major grievances. The prime function of our modern-day political system is predicated upon dissolving domestic angst against the aggressors in charge. Tyrants don't step down peacefully unfortunately. What really worries me isn't necessarily the TPTB because in their hearts they are cowards, but the vacuum of power which follows. These street people with very little historical knowledge and understanding of the business cycle could very easily transition over into a more draconian rule than the fascists.

klamath
10-12-2011, 10:18 AM
What I always notice is the people that are always saying violence is unstoppable but "THEY are not advacating it", always are assuming and pushing the idea that the the outcome will be utopia. The outcome of a violent revolution has an 80% chance of leaving holy hell in its wake. The more violence the people of a land have had the more bitterness and division the following generations hold toward each other for crimes against the innocent. A recent member from former Yugoslavia pointed this out real well.

Cowlesy
10-12-2011, 10:37 AM
The difference is if these people win, they're coming for any of you who think you have a so-called right to your own property.

They don't believe in private property like we do, and you are a target. We'd rather change gov't to leave us *and* them alone.

Worked hard your whole life, saved and bought some nice things? You're a bourgeois to them and need to spread your property to others who don't have it.

They don't like the Federal Reserve because of who it favors. They'd much have a Central Bank that favors them instead.

dannno
10-12-2011, 10:40 AM
This guy may or may not be COINTELPRO, an agent provocateur. I wonder how many people really cheered.

I went to an organizing meeting for another OWS protest group that is springing up in my community last night. There were a lot of disagreements, people pushing agendas, ideas like "rent strikes" being thrown around (by a very small minority btw) but ultimately everybody decided not to push any specific agenda but that non-violence would be a cornerstone.

I was kinda sitting off to the side because I was more interested in listening and knew I would have to do a bit of tongue-biting.. At the end everybody introduced themselves and I basically said that I hated Wall St., I hated the banks, I hated our foreign empire and I hate how our civil liberties aren't respected and constantly trampled on (we had been discussing the govt. spying on citizens using cell phones even when they are off, smart phone records, facebook, etc..) and that I had a bit of a different philosophy than maybe most of them but that I respected that they are informed enough and care enough to come out and do something about the problems we are facing. They asked what that political philosophy was, I said libertarian and a few seats at the table had just opened up before the intros and they were very glad I was there and one of them invited me to sit at the seat next to them that had opened up.

They brought up antisemitism and how there were people who were antisemitic who had shown up at some of the rallies. I explained how there were racist tea party members, but that was not the focus of the vast majority of their activism, but you wouldn't know it from the media coverage because instead of covering the entire event the media would focus on the fringe and racist elements. I explained they would not be treated any better by the media so it is a legitimate concern.

Turned out there were some anarchists there, including an anarcho-capititalist who is a big fan of Ron Paul.

Endgame
10-12-2011, 10:47 AM
I'm not going to advocate violence, but it's intellectually dishonest to say it is never an option. The government is a violent criminal organization and force is all some people understand in the end. Despite the perceptions of the warmongering bigots I sometimes find myself arguing with, I do not advocate pacifism. This country did not become independent by filling out forms and negotiating with bureaucrats.

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 10:50 AM
The difference is if these people win, they're coming for any of you who think you have a so-called right to your own property.

They don't believe in private property like we do, and you are a target. We'd rather change gov't to leave us *and* them alone.

Worked hard your whole life, saved and bought some nice things? You're a bourgeois to them and need to spread your property to others who don't have it.

They don't like the Federal Reserve because of who it favors. They'd much have a Central Bank that favors them instead.

Us v Them.

This has given the people in power the Carte Blanc to do as they will for 100 years.
There is not a nickles worth of difference between "R" and "D".

As long as we fight ourselves their game continues unhindered.
A very effective strategy.

Why not join the crowd and lead them rather than let others lead them?

Cowlesy
10-12-2011, 11:01 AM
Us v Them.

This has given the people in power the Carte Blanc to do as they will for 100 years.
There is not a nickles worth of difference between "R" and "D".

As long as we fight ourselves their game continues unhindered.
A very effective strategy.

Why not join the crowd and lead them rather than let others lead them?

Because I continue to believe that private property is one of the foundational values of the society, governed by a system of laws to arbitrate whether said property is lawfully gained. Saying those laws arbitrarily don't apply to anyone, or don't apply to a select group of people (ie $100M+ networth people so we can take from them) is a bridge I cannot cross. Sorry.

musicmax
10-12-2011, 11:19 AM
"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

klamath
10-12-2011, 11:20 AM
We may not have any neoconservatives in this movement but we sure have a lot of Neo maxists.

sailingaway
10-12-2011, 11:22 AM
Yeah, I suspect this guy is the flip side version of the racist signs at tea parties (as in, not indicative of where most are coming from) but it shows the problem with being too closely associated with them, visably as supporters of a candidate.

dannno
10-12-2011, 11:24 AM
Yeah, I suspect this guy is the flip side version of the racist signs at tea parties (as in, not indicative of where most are coming from) but it shows the problem with being too closely associated with them, visably as supporters of a candidate.

On that logic, visible Ron Paul supporters shouldn't have gone to the Tea Party protests because people might associate Ron Paul with being racist.

klamath
10-12-2011, 11:28 AM
Yeah, I suspect this guy is the flip side version of the racist signs at tea parties (as in, not indicative of where most are coming from) but it shows the problem with being too closely associated with them, visably as supporters of a candidate.
Did you hear any boos? I sure didn't. Anybody can stand up and speak but when that person flat out advocates violence to loud cheers it is not isolated.

LibertyEagle
10-12-2011, 11:28 AM
Those of you who seem to believe the French Revolution was a good thing, badly need to do some studying.

LibertyEagle
10-12-2011, 11:30 AM
On that logic, visible Ron Paul supporters shouldn't have gone to the Tea Party protests because people might associate Ron Paul with being racist.

Please do not forget that we are trying to win the REPUBLICAN nomination.

dannno
10-12-2011, 11:32 AM
Please do not forget that we are trying to win the REPUBLICAN nomination.

Oh ya, I keep forgetting that Republicans are racist :rolleyes: ;) (jk, obv)

Sematary
10-12-2011, 11:34 AM
We may not have any neoconservatives in this movement but we sure have a lot of Neo maxists.

At what point does the understanding that revolution is coming and that the powers that be WILL react violently to said revolution become marxist? do u even know what marxism is?
it may not even be THIS protest that precipitates it all but a revolution has begun in the world and revolutions don't tend to be all warm and fuzzy

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 11:37 AM
Because I continue to believe that private property is one of the foundational values of the society, governed by a system of laws to arbitrate whether said property is lawfully gained. Saying those laws arbitrarily don't apply to anyone, or don't apply to a select group of people (ie $100M+ networth people so we can take from them) is a bridge I cannot cross. Sorry.

Even if their Wealth/Property was acquired through fraud or theft?

Does this also apply to the freezing or seizing of assets from (alleged) enemies or "criminals"?

Do you believe that the Bailouts were a legitimate means of "acquiring" wealth?

Do you believe that Fiat Currency is Legitimate, and that manipulating Markets is Honest Capitalism?

I am a free Market Capitalist. I have also been a Bank Robber. I no longer choose theft as a means of acquiring wealth.
But I still do recognize it when I see it.

AuH20
10-12-2011, 11:38 AM
At what point does the understanding that revolution is coming and that the powers that be WILL react violently to said revolution become marxist? do u even know what marxism is?
it may not even be THIS protest that precipitates it all but a revolution has begun in the world and revolutions don't tend to be all warm and fuzzy

Marxism is a select group of plutocrats or this case "party heads" owning the means of production under the guise of the people. It's not that far off from where we are, in that they just need to consolidate the producers and eradicate the bill of rights.

LibertyEagle
10-12-2011, 11:40 AM
Oh ya, I keep forgetting that Republicans are racist :rolleyes: ;) (jk, obv)

No, what I meant was that the tea parties have a lot more likely Republican voters than does Occupy Wall Street.

klamath
10-12-2011, 11:42 AM
At what point does the understanding that revolution is coming and that the powers that be WILL react violently to said revolution become marxist? do u even know what marxism is?
it may not even be THIS protest that precipitates it all but a revolution has begun in the world and revolutions don't tend to be all warm and fuzzy
And the outcome don't usually come out all warm and fuzzy. For one thing if this guy and his type brings revolution that threaten me and mine I will not be shooting with him but at him.

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 11:43 AM
It seems that Thomas Jefferson has some fans.

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 11:47 AM
No, what I meant was that the tea parties have a lot more likely Republican voters than does Occupy Wall Street.

A great many there are also pissed at the Democratic Party.
More that a few see both parties as complicit and corrupt.

I suspect that David Degraw may be a fan of Ron Paul. he has spoken well of him though he avoids any party line affiliation.

klamath
10-12-2011, 11:47 AM
Even if their Wealth/Property was acquired through fraud or theft?

Does this also apply to the freezing or seizing of assets from (alleged) enemies or "criminals"?

Do you believe that the Bailouts were a legitimate means of "acquiring" wealth?

Do you believe that Fiat Currency is Legitimate, and that manipulating Markets is Honest Capitalism?

I am a free Market Capitalist. I have also been a Bank Robber. I no longer choose theft as a means of acquiring wealth.
But I still do recognize it when I see it.
And everyone of those transgressions were enacted by the representatives of the people duely elected and then reelected. There is your problem.

klamath
10-12-2011, 11:50 AM
It seems that Thomas Jefferson has some fans.

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. It seems the man that wrote that never stood on the deadly end of a musket either. He was too busy being pampered by his slaves.

LibertyEagle
10-12-2011, 11:51 AM
It seems that Thomas Jefferson has some fans.

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

The difference, pcosmar, is that the people have become ignorant as all hell. Most welcome big government. Jefferson is arguing for liberty and the rule of law. Is that what you honestly believe Americans today would rush to, if everything crashed down? Rather, I think we'd see something akin to the French Revolution that would result in something even farther from liberty than we are now.

Do you believe that the people in the video in the OP are arguing for liberty?

Czolgosz
10-12-2011, 11:52 AM
Negotiating for your freedom will only go so far.

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 11:55 AM
And everyone of those transgressions were enacted by the representatives of the people duely elected and then reelected. There is your problem.
I never said that was not a problem.
But are those "representatives" representing the people that elected them or the people that bribed them?
And is Bribery a legitimate means of acquiring wealth? To take it back to the original Property rights question I was asked.

AFPVet
10-12-2011, 11:58 AM
There are two forces at work in this revolution: government backed socialists and Ron Paul libertarians. The socialists seem to be the ones who would like a violent action rather than the exercise of rights. It is a battle to win the hearts and minds!

AuH20
10-12-2011, 11:58 AM
How do you direct a mob who has no understanding or appreciation for the concept of private property? It's akin to living with cannibals, because eventually the cannibals start looking at you.

LibertyEagle
10-12-2011, 12:02 PM
Negotiating for your freedom will only go so far.

So will stupidity.

The fastest way to get what little we have left of our Bill of Rights flushed down the proverbial toilet is for people to start some wide-scale violence.

There was a good reason why Ron Paul hesitated when some in the grassroots chose the term, RevoLution, to represent his 2008 campaign. Because the good doctor is not advocating anything violent at all. He is advocating that our government follow the Constitution. Do you remember when he used the word, peaceful, numerous times? THAT is what he advocates. Anyone promoting anything other than that does Ron Paul a disservice and should not be promoting that kind of crap, here.

klamath
10-12-2011, 12:03 PM
I never said that was not a problem.
But are those "representatives" representing the people that elected them or the people that bribed them?
And is Bribery a legitimate means of acquiring wealth? To take it back to the original Property rights question I was asked.
Yes they are representing the people. Do a poll and see if the majority of the americans like Obama's drone assasination? Where were the protests against the undeclared war in libya? How many of the representives that voted for TARP were reelected with the voters knowing full well they did? Was Bush not reelected when it was known he was using torture?

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 12:03 PM
The difference, pcosmar, is that the people have become ignorant as all hell.


Do you believe that the people in the video in the OP are arguing for liberty?


The people cannot be all, and always, well informed.

I believe that person in the video was one speaker of many.
I believe that people are pissed. I know I am,, I said that when I joined here.

I believe these protests are a result of a Huge portion of the population,here and world wide, that are pissed at being shit on.

What direction that takes will not be affected by ignoring it.
What direction it takes is still fluid.
By ignoring it or by avoiding it only guarantees that you have NO voice in it.

AuH20
10-12-2011, 12:04 PM
So will stupidity.

The fastest way to get what little we have left of our Bill of Rights flushed down the proverbial toilet is for people to start some wide-scale violence.

There was a good reason why Ron Paul hesitated when some in the grassroots chose the term, RevoLution, to represent his 2008 campaign. Because the good doctor is not advocating anything violent at all. He is advocating that our government follow the Constitution. Do you remember when he used the word, peaceful, numerous times? THAT is what he advocates. Anyone promoting anything other than that does Ron Paul a disservice and should not be promoting that kind of crap, here.

No one is advocating for the initiation of violence, but once "first blood is drawn", you hit them so hard that their head spins. We need to be vigilant as opposed to foolish.

Czolgosz
10-12-2011, 12:07 PM
So will stupidity.

The fastest way to get what little we have left of our Bill of Rights flushed down the proverbial toilet is for people to start some wide-scale violence.

There was a good reason why Ron Paul hesitated when some in the grassroots chose the term, RevoLution, to represent his 2008 campaign. Because the good doctor is not advocating anything violent at all. He is advocating that our government follow the Constitution. Do you remember when he used the word, peaceful, numerous times? THAT is what he advocates. Anyone promoting anything other than that does Ron Paul a disservice and should not be promoting that kind of crap, here.


Ok, so you'll stay enslaved in perpetuity. Good for you.

LibertyEagle
10-12-2011, 12:10 PM
Ok, so you'll stay enslaved in perpetuity. Good for you.

Those initiating violence will have crossed the line into the enemy category.

AuH20
10-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Those initiating violence will have crossed the line into the enemy category.

I'm 100% sure the peasants will not be the catalyst:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

LibertyEagle
10-12-2011, 12:13 PM
I'm 100% sure the peasants will not be the catalyst:

Probably not, but keep in mind that not everyone who appears to be a peasant really is.

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 12:20 PM
Probably not, but keep in mind that not everyone who appears to be a peasant really is.

Define Hypocrisy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRXCgMdz9A&feature=player_embedded

Philhelm
10-12-2011, 12:23 PM
The difference is if these people win, they're coming for any of you who think you have a so-called right to your own property.

They don't believe in private property like we do, and you are a target. We'd rather change gov't to leave us *and* them alone.

Worked hard your whole life, saved and bought some nice things? You're a bourgeois to them and need to spread your property to others who don't have it.

They don't like the Federal Reserve because of who it favors. They'd much have a Central Bank that favors them instead.

+1

Thank you! There's a big difference between those who could be pushed to stand against aggression, as opposed to those that would fight in order to support a government that aggresses others.

John F Kennedy III
10-12-2011, 12:25 PM
Wow. That is not the way to go.

AuH20
10-12-2011, 12:36 PM
Katrina is the future. Private mercenary outfits like Blackwater being deployed against citizens. Israeli commandos being hired to guard the properties of the ultra-rich.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUzrV0lJ-0A

Brian4Liberty
10-12-2011, 01:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlPY9AfQFqI&feature=player_embedded


Let me be the first to be politically incorrect and address the 500 lb gorilla in the room. If this guy is not a citizen, he needs to be deported. This is a prime example of a foreigner coming into the US and bringing an agenda of bloodshed. This should not be tolerated. He needs to go back to wherever he came from.

Cowlesy
10-12-2011, 01:24 PM
Even if their Wealth/Property was acquired through fraud or theft? If someone breaks the law, then they should be prosecuted.

Does this also apply to the freezing or seizing of assets from (alleged) enemies or "criminals"? Do you mean asset forfeitures due to violation of the law? Sure once proven guilty.

Do you believe that the Bailouts were a legitimate means of "acquiring" wealth? Of course it wasn't, but it was an act of lawmakers (Congress) who did the bailout, and if we are talking about TARP, TARP was repaid plus interest and we actually made a profit on it. Doesn't make it anymore right whatsoever but let's not say these were wire transfers to people's pockets for billions. If people want to be bailed out liked the banks then they need to vote in more Democrats and Republicans who support that.

Do you believe that Fiat Currency is Legitimate, and that manipulating Markets is Honest Capitalism? I think fiat is a terrible basis for a currency, but our lawmakers gave the Fed the ability to regulate the dollar. A really stupid decision that should be reversed. Manipulation of markets is of course not honest capitalism, but also a broad-based condemnation of this thing called "Wall Street" is dishonest demagoguery. I don't know any profession out there that doesn't have bad apples, but plenty of "Wall Street" work hard, do well and some fail. You and me agree they shouldn't be bailed out. But pictures like this of Lloyd Blankfein 700 with his head on a spike is not what I am about. It's really really easy to just say "they all deserve to go" or "they're all criminals" but if we are to follow the law, we need to prove Person A, B or C actually committed a crime via the letter of the law, not just what our senses or the mob tell us.

I am a free Market Capitalist. I have also been a Bank Robber. I no longer choose theft as a means of acquiring wealth.
But I still do recognize it when I see it.

I think why Ron Paul calls for Ending the Fed and getting back to sound money, repealing regulations so that there are less barriers to start a business, and banning bailouts so that the elite don't think they have a congressional action safety net is why we campaign for him. If he didn't believe in that, wouldn't he be leading the protests? I think we should all stick with Ron on this.

AuH20
10-12-2011, 01:32 PM
I think why Ron Paul calls for Ending the Fed and getting back to sound money, repealing regulations so that there are less barriers to start a business, and banning bailouts so that the elite don't think they have a congressional action safety net is why we campaign for him. If he didn't believe in that, wouldn't he be leading the protests? I think we should all stick with Ron on this.

I'm pretty sure that Goldman Sachs, under Blankfein's direction were selling MBS and distressed bank stocks to clients who weren't aware that Goldman held massive short positions on. Blankfein even went as far as lying in a Congressional inquiry, which other sources contested. And I haven't even brought up the AIG scandal upon which Goldman eventually capitalized on. His decapitated head probably should be on a pike.

dannno
10-12-2011, 01:41 PM
No, what I meant was that the tea parties have a lot more likely Republican voters than does Occupy Wall Street.

I had a Green Peace activist come up and ask me for more information about Austrian/free market Economics last night at the meeting.

Haven't had many requests on that from likely Republican voters.

Pericles
10-12-2011, 01:41 PM
No one is advocating for the initiation of violence, but once "first blood is drawn", you hit them so hard that their head spins. We need to be vigilant as opposed to foolish.

No one touches me with impunity is an important principle of liberty.

Jtorsella
10-12-2011, 01:46 PM
Does anyone truly believe that peaceful revolution is possible in this corrupt society?
Even if we manage to get Ron Paul elected, what are the odds that people who control the money will have him assassinated within weeks of beginning his first term. He's a threat to them, which is why they marginalize him and if he ever came to control, they would kill him. In the end, peaceful revolution is virtually impossible.
Seriously? Why are you such a huge apologist for OWS. They freaking outright say they want a Communist revolution and you somewhat justify the use of violence? Come on. It's a pipe dream to think that these people are freedom fighters for liberty, though it's tempting.

pcosmar
10-12-2011, 01:53 PM
I think we should all stick with Ron on this.

Oh, I am sticking with Ron on that. And I am not "supporting" the socialist side of this. Most of the folks that have joined in are socialist leaning, not hard to understand given the nationalized education system in this country or the fact that nearly the entire world is socialist.
But even in the socialist world there are the Daniel Hannans' and Nigel Farges'.

I just think that the anger at a corrupt system is justified, and that we should not be quick to dismiss this because of a few nuts in the crowd.
It is one front in a larger war. And we have the same enemies.

It is not the honest drones on Wall Street that concern me. Nor is it the traders that will make a few bucks , or lose their fortunes playing the game.
It is the ones that are running the game.

klamath
10-12-2011, 02:04 PM
"Aid and advise the discontented and they themselve shall be our forces!" the axiom of facist utopians.

dannno
10-12-2011, 02:28 PM
It is not the honest drones on Wall Street that concern me. Nor is it the traders that will make a few bucks , or lose their fortunes playing the game.
It is the ones that are running the game.

Yes, the 1%, so to speak (I doubt it's even that high, but from what I've gathered most in the OWS crowd don't think it is actually that high either, it's more symbolic)

ItsTime
10-12-2011, 02:30 PM
After being yelled at in the face by a OWS psycho I think there is no hope to convert any of these brainwashed zombies.

Wearing her converse sneakers, gap jeans and holding her Iphone while screaming in my face that Ron Paul is a corprate pig......

Travlyr
10-12-2011, 02:44 PM
There are two forces at work in this revolution: government backed socialists and Ron Paul libertarians. The socialists seem to be the ones who would like a violent action rather than the exercise of rights. It is a battle to win the hearts and minds!

This ^ is it. And with the Internet it doesn't take long for the truth to go viral. The truth will set us free and that is our job -- to keep spreading the truth.

The fight is between honesty and dishonesty. People with the privilege are not being honest and they use their illegitimate power to keep people confused and divided. We can win this without more war and actually achieve a relatively peaceful, prosperous, free world.

The truth is that when money is being "created" it is not being created. It is being transferred from one party to another. The size of the pie does not get any bigger. The size of the portions change dramatically. Those who have the privilege to "create" money get big pieces. Everybody else gets the crumbs.


"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the 'hidden' confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights." - Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom

A Son of Liberty
10-12-2011, 02:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emdzsz_XvfA

I could be wrong, but I think we're approaching critical mass...

Maybe these people will get bored and go home. Maybe we'll have a cold fall and their rage will mysteriously subside. Or maybe this thing will persist and grow, and the black swan will come flying in and this business will get out of control...

dannno
10-12-2011, 02:58 PM
After being yelled at in the face by a OWS psycho I think there is no hope to convert any of these brainwashed zombies.

Wearing her converse sneakers, gap jeans and holding her Iphone while screaming in my face that Ron Paul is a corprate pig......


.....at an OWS protest held at a REPUBLICAN debate.....where any good liberty supporter would be with Ron Paul signs with all the other Ron Paul supporters..

Sematary
10-12-2011, 09:23 PM
Define Hypocrisy.

That was excellent. Thankyou for bringing it to my attention.

Sematary
10-12-2011, 09:26 PM
Seriously? Why are you such a huge apologist for OWS. They freaking outright say they want a Communist revolution and you somewhat justify the use of violence? Come on. It's a pipe dream to think that these people are freedom fighters for liberty, though it's tempting.

They are only the tip of a bigger iceberg. If another recession hits (and it looks likely) things are going to get UGLY in this nation.