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Sola_Fide
10-12-2011, 06:12 AM
I had a conversation this morning with a former military Bush-style neocon (she is a Tea Party member here in Ky). I couldn't break through this shell with a 2x4. Here is what I learned:

WW2 got us out of the great depression

War makes the US economy grow

"If good people stand around and do nothing, we are just as evil as the evildoers"

Our founders were not isolationists like Ron Paul

Ron Paul understands the Constitution better than most, but Herman Cain understands the Islamic caliphate threat

Islamic nations hate us because we are not Muslims

Nation building is a conservative foreign policy




After my polite arguments were shot down by every blood-thirsty reply, there was one thing...ONE thing...that made her pause and really think:

I told her that Ron Paul gets the most donations from military personnel.

It made her pause and think. All in all, it was a total losing conversation, but it was strange that this one fact evoked such a strong emotion from her. It was like she wanted to have some brotherhood (sisterhood) with her fellow soldiers, so she was almost defending why so many military members would donate to Ron.


Sigh...its the tea party for you....

AGRP
10-12-2011, 06:17 AM
See sig.

Sematary
10-12-2011, 06:18 AM
I had a conversation this morning with a former military Bush-style neocon (she is a Tea Party member here in Ky). I couldn't break through this shell with a 2x4. Here is what I learned:

WW2 got us out of the great depression

War makes the US economy grow

"If good people stand around and do nothing, we are just as evil as the evildoers"

Our founders were not isolationists like Ron Paul

Ron Paul understands the Constitution better than most, but Herman Cain understands the Islamic caliphate threat

Islamic nations hate us because we are not Muslims

Nation building is a conservative foreign policy




After my polite arguments were shot down by every blood-thirsty reply, there was one thing...ONE thing...that made her pause and really think:

I told her that Ron Paul gets the most donations from military personnel.

It made her pause and think. All in all, it was a total losing conversation, but it was strange that this one fact evoked such a strong emotion from her. It was like she wanted to have some brotherhood (sisterhood) with her fellow soldiers, so she was almost defending why so many military members would donate to Ron.


Sigh...its the tea party for you....

Arguing with a neocon is like banging your forehead on a tree. you just get a headache. The war hawks and interventionists are the one group I just can't seem to get through to.

bluesc
10-12-2011, 06:18 AM
You can't ignore those stats. They obviously hit home with her.

Some people have been indoctrinated with these ideas of foreign policy, skewed history and false information on other candidates, and it's really tough to just accept that they are false. Keep trying. I converted the most liberal of liberal Obama apologists I knew. People in the Tea Party are capable of coming our way too. They are almost with us based on most of the ideas they believe in.

kahless
10-12-2011, 06:34 AM
I bet she probably learned to think that way from her favorite Neocon radio talk show host.

Sola_Fide
10-12-2011, 06:37 AM
I bet she probably learned to think that way from her favorite Neocon radio talk show host.

She kept assuring me that "since she served", she had knowledge about foreign affairs that I couldn't possibly have.

georgiaboy
10-12-2011, 06:45 AM
ab, take heart, you big patriot. That one little fact she stumbled upon might just be the hairline fracture in the windshield that eventually leads to the whole thing falling apart.

Baby steps.

Also, great job stepping up and doing some battle.

Sematary
10-12-2011, 06:45 AM
I served. Does that make me an expert in foreign affairs?

georgiaboy
10-12-2011, 06:47 AM
also, it does sound like she was debating from a position of fear, whereas you were debating from a position of logic and strength.

"What are you really afraid of?" might be a fun question to ask someone like her. Probably more saving face than a real boogey-man gonna show up at her door.

Sola_Fide
10-12-2011, 07:02 AM
When I asked her why she doesn't trust our government to secure our freedoms domestically, but yet trusts our government to secure other people's freedoms in the middle east through force, it was like I caused a short circuit to occur in her mind...and then she went off on a tangent about how spending money to destroy things and then rebuild them is a benefit to our economy.

I mean...I have never seen a demonstration of how Keyensianism is so intimately tied to war as this...

Some people standing around were saying "well, even most of the candidates running are relenting on the war-hawk mentality", but this didn't even phase her. She was full-on, head-first into blood lust.

fisharmor
10-12-2011, 07:21 AM
Islamic nations hate us because we are not Muslims
This is news to me... coming from the other direction.
Not only do they not hate us, but... about a third of the department I work in is Muslim, and most of them are citizens, so I can't go so far as to say "we" aren't Muslim.

Until recently I actually - gasp - sat with my back toward one who like clockwork would go in the bathroom and wash his hands, feet, and face before finding an empty office to say prayers at the prescribed times.

I wish I could relate to you stories of how he singled me out as a regular churchgoer and continually tried to blow up my desk....
...but for some reason we always end up just telling each other about our kids, and we talk a lot about schooling (and how I don't think he should send his boy to state schools).

If he's some kind of sleeper agent, he's fuckin' good, because I feel only warmth and camaraderie toward the guy.

Sola_Fide
10-12-2011, 07:25 AM
This is news to me... coming from the other direction.
Not only do they not hate us, but... about a third of the department I work in is Muslim, and most of them are citizens, so I can't go so far as to say "we" aren't Muslim.

Until recently I actually - gasp - sat with my back toward one who like clockwork would go in the bathroom and wash his hands, feet, and face before finding an empty office to say prayers at the prescribed times.

I wish I could relate to you stories of how he singled me out as a regular churchgoer and continually tried to blow up my desk....
...but for some reason we always end up just telling each other about our kids, and we talk a lot about schooling (and how I don't think he should send his boy to state schools).

If he's some kind of sleeper agent, he's fuckin' good, because I feel only warmth and camaraderie toward the guy.

Ha...when I asked her if she thought that our involvement in middle east affairs had any effect on the motivation to commit terrorist acts against us, her reply was NO. No further explanation or anything. Just no.

Then she went on to explsin how since she served, she had first hand experience that these middle east countries wanted us there and involved in their affairs.

Romulus
10-12-2011, 07:29 AM
I had a conversation this morning with a former military Bush-style neocon (she is a Tea Party member here in Ky). I couldn't break through this shell with a 2x4. Here is what I learned:

WW2 got us out of the great depression

War makes the US economy grow

"If good people stand around and do nothing, we are just as evil as the evildoers"

Our founders were not isolationists like Ron Paul

Ron Paul understands the Constitution better than most, but Herman Cain understands the Islamic caliphate threat

Islamic nations hate us because we are not Muslims

Nation building is a conservative foreign policy




After my polite arguments were shot down by every blood-thirsty reply, there was one thing...ONE thing...that made her pause and really think:

I told her that Ron Paul gets the most donations from military personnel.

It made her pause and think. All in all, it was a total losing conversation, but it was strange that this one fact evoked such a strong emotion from her. It was like she wanted to have some brotherhood (sisterhood) with her fellow soldiers, so she was almost defending why so many military members would donate to Ron.


Sigh...its the tea party for you....

That's the answer to everything right there.

Who do the troops support? Ron Paul

Peace&Freedom
10-12-2011, 08:08 AM
Reminds me of a conversation with a neocon at a public access station. She didn't like a show I hosted that objected to the Iraq war, saying that every military guy she knew supported Bush's invasion/occupation of Iraq, and that a panel of such troops should be brought in to rebut the antiwar show. After mentioning I had also served, and knew more servicemen were partial to Paul's view than Bush's, I suggested perhaps a representative sample of deployed military in Iraq should be brought on, to see what the actual general sentiment of the troops was. She was speechless at the suggestion.

flightlesskiwi
10-12-2011, 08:25 AM
she wouldn't happen to be Ann Ba rnhardt's sister, would she? they sound a lot alike.

(you'll understand if you go read my post in the vent).

Revolution9
10-12-2011, 09:05 AM
This is news to me... coming from the other direction.
Not only do they not hate us, but... about a third of the department I work in is Muslim, and most of them are citizens, so I can't go so far as to say "we" aren't Muslim.

Until recently I actually - gasp - sat with my back toward one who like clockwork would go in the bathroom and wash his hands, feet, and face before finding an empty office to say prayers at the prescribed times.

I wish I could relate to you stories of how he singled me out as a regular churchgoer and continually tried to blow up my desk....
...but for some reason we always end up just telling each other about our kids, and we talk a lot about schooling (and how I don't think he should send his boy to state schools).

If he's some kind of sleeper agent, he's fuckin' good, because I feel only warmth and camaraderie toward the guy.

I did sound for alot of Turkish festivals. The majority of the families showing up were Muslim. There wasn't one burka. The teenage girls were dressed in well fitting blue jeans and tshirts. The festivals were all about honoring the children and letting the older ones meet their possible future wife or husband. The older boys would attempt to dance traditional Turkish folk dances and the girls would come out in synchronized dance groups. They would have sack races, foot hop races and relays and at the end of the day every kid got a prize for something or other. I was treated very well, paid about 1900 bucks an hour and fed till I could pop. The only hard time was one festival honcho decided he was gonna be gruff with me. I old the DJ this clown, who thought he was Hosni Mubarak with a walrus moustache better back the fuck off and stop ordering me around or I will pack up my equipment and hit the road. Well, a group of men got around him, chattered in Turkish and for the rest of he day the guy never came near me and I had a great time.

Rev9

Pericles
10-12-2011, 09:11 AM
It is just going to be an inescapable fact that the prior service people in the liberty movement are going to have much more "cred" with the military types that those without military service. There is a invisible barrier there.

Acala
10-12-2011, 09:20 AM
So, if war strengthens our economy, why is our economy in tatters after a decade of continuous, escalating, war?

The only time I have made ground with neocons is by taking the fiscal angle "we cannot afford to police the world. We are broke." They have no response to this so I keep hitting it. "It really doesn't matter if Muslims ARE intent on taking over the world. We don't have any money. The Federal government literally does not have one penny. It needs to BORROW money from China and other countries just to pay its bills. Do you think that can be sustained?"

Keep hitting the fiscal angle. Again and again.

erowe1
10-12-2011, 09:24 AM
Why would someone who believes WW2 got us out of the Great Depression be involved in the tea party movement?

I mean if you can be a tea partier and believe that more government spending is good for the economy, does the tea party even mean anything at all any more?

AuH20
10-12-2011, 09:26 AM
Why would someone who believes WW2 got us out of the Great Depression be involved in the tea party movement?

I mean if you can be a tea partier and believe that more government spending is good for the economy, does the tea party even mean anything at all any more?

These are probably boomers who hitched onto the Reagan bandwagon. Half of the tea party is pretty impressive. The boomer part not so much. They tend to be more tied to the mistakes of the past.

Sola_Fide
10-12-2011, 09:30 AM
Why would someone who believes WW2 got us out of the Great Depression be involved in the tea party movement?

I mean if you can be a tea partier and believe that more government spending is good for the economy, does the tea party even mean anything at all any more?

Believe me, I was embarrassed for her when I had to try to explain Bastiat to her in terms she could understand.

juleswin
10-12-2011, 09:35 AM
Why would someone who believes WW2 got us out of the Great Depression be involved in the tea party movement?

I mean if you can be a tea partier and believe that more government spending is good for the economy, does the tea party even mean anything at all any more?

In a way, wars can get you out of depressions. All you need to do is bomb out your competitor's infrastructure and factories while somehow keeping yours intact. Also device a plan that would grant your currency the world reserve status and voila, you will be living in economic nirvana.

But the new wars we are fighting are not targeting the right countries. South east asian and Indian countries is were the fight is at :)

Deborah K
10-12-2011, 09:50 AM
Here's a FB conversation I just had about Ron's foreign policy:


I agree with ya girl but Paul has absolutely NO chance in hell of gettin elected...hes old and CRAZY


Deborah Robinet ‎@ Chuck, is it crazy to be the only congressman who votes in adherence to the Constitution? Perhaps if that had been done by all of them all along, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in. Just sayin'

Chuck Longhenry I couldnt agree with you more Deborah.. I know Paul is a constitutionalist and thats what I love about him... but in the debates and his other views...hes just a nut!!! We would be better off with more folks who thought like he did on the constitution...but we dont ... at least not yet...!!!


Deborah Robinet
‎@Chuck, he doesn't come off well in the debates, granted, but not being a great debater doesn't translate into not being a good leader. The point is, he doesn't want to be President so he run our lives, he wants to change the course of history and get the gov't back in line with the Constitution. This country has never needed a Constitutional President more than it does right now. Can you tell me what "his other views" are that make you think he's nutty?

Chuck Longhenry
Deborah..I couldnt agree with you more, we truely do need to get back closer to what the founders started. As for his other views, the one that keeps me from looking at him as a serious candidate is his stance on the wars. Thats a deal breaker for me. I also agree that not being a good debator shouldnt disqualify someone from being president. I just think he can do the most good for the country by staying in Congress...just my two lil cents!! ;)


Deborah Robinet
Chuck, his stance on the wars is taken from the Constitution and the founding fathers. Do you know who Michael Scheuer is? He's the former head of the Bin-ladin unit of the CIA, he's also the bestselling author of three or four books on the subject of foreign policy, and he agrees with Ron's position on these needless wars. Also, if you didn't know, Ron gets more donations from the military than all the other candidates combined. He gets more donations than Obama does as well from the military. This can all be easily verified. And it goes to show that even those serving know that these wars are not Constitutional. Chuck, I appreciate the opportunity to share truthful information with you about Ron Paul. Thank you.

Chuck Longhenry Dont thank me...I always appreciate learning new things about the folks running our country! Ill have to look into the things youve said..maybe Im off the mark on this one! ;)

Deborah Robinet It's a pleasure to share with someone so reasonable. :)

Now my job is to stay in touch with him and help him through his cognitive dissonance. Usually if you can get them to agree that the gov't needs to adhere to the constitution, you can pretty much win them over.

erowe1
10-12-2011, 09:55 AM
In a way, wars can get you out of depressions. All you need to do is bomb out your competitor's infrastructure and factories while somehow keeping yours intact. Also device a plan that would grant your currency the world reserve status and voila, you will be living in economic nirvana.

How would having a world with less infrasctructure and factories be good for anyone's economy?

Matthew5
10-12-2011, 09:57 AM
She kept assuring me that "since she served", she had knowledge about foreign affairs that I couldn't possibly have.

If I hear this tired argument one more time... lol

As someone who comes from a military family, I can certainly honor the sacrifices made by our military. My wife's grandfather was a Frozen Chosin marine, my cousin and grandfather are air force vets, my father-in-law served in the army in vietnam. Each one has or had a wide and varied opinion on foreign policy...so who's right since apparently veterans have a monopoly on foreign policy views?

Sorry, /rant

Peace&Freedom
10-12-2011, 12:10 PM
How would having a world with less infrasctructure and factories be good for anyone's economy?

Because somebody will have to rebuild all that infrastructure and factories, so the jobs and business opportunities created spur a new economic boom. Plus building homes for returning troops, restoration of trade with the enemy country, confiscated assets of the enemy country, etc. Add to that a lessened debt burden, as the winning country usually rejects any legal obligation to pay the debts they may have owed to the country they were at war with.

realtonygoodwin
10-12-2011, 01:40 PM
I'm currently serving. I have access to information that most people don't, including most people in the military. I have come to agree more with Ron's foreign policy since I joined than prior to joining.

James Madison
10-12-2011, 01:43 PM
I'm currently serving. I have access to information that most people don't, including most people in the military. I have come to agree more with Ron's foreign policy since I joined than prior to joining.

That's my experience talking with most vets. Probably explains why Ron gets more military donations than any other candidate.

Griffith
10-12-2011, 02:12 PM
I had a conversation this morning with a former military Bush-style neocon (she is a Tea Party member here in Ky). I couldn't break through this shell with a 2x4. Here is what I learned:

WW2 got us out of the great depression

War makes the US economy grow

"If good people stand around and do nothing, we are just as evil as the evildoers"

Our founders were not isolationists like Ron Paul

Ron Paul understands the Constitution better than most, but Herman Cain understands the Islamic caliphate threat

Islamic nations hate us because we are not Muslims

Nation building is a conservative foreign policy




After my polite arguments were shot down by every blood-thirsty reply, there was one thing...ONE thing...that made her pause and really think:

I told her that Ron Paul gets the most donations from military personnel.

It made her pause and think. All in all, it was a total losing conversation, but it was strange that this one fact evoked such a strong emotion from her. It was like she wanted to have some brotherhood (sisterhood) with her fellow soldiers, so she was almost defending why so many military members would donate to Ron.


Sigh...its the tea party for you....

He gets FAR MORE than anyone else does from active duty military.

LibertyMage
10-12-2011, 02:45 PM
Politics 101: its about what is important to other people, not important to you. You will win by connecting your candidates with issues people already agree with them on. As far as politics goes, the education theory is invalid.

bunklocoempire
10-12-2011, 04:24 PM
*SNIP*

WW2 got us out of the great depression

War makes the US economy grow



So she values loss of life over other methods to grow the economy, and/or it's just a happy little coincidence?

Ugh. :(






Bunkloco

erowe1
10-12-2011, 04:31 PM
Because somebody will have to rebuild all that infrastructure and factories, so the jobs and business opportunities created spur a new economic boom. Plus building homes for returning troops, restoration of trade with the enemy country, confiscated assets of the enemy country, etc. Add to that a lessened debt burden, as the winning country usually rejects any legal obligation to pay the debts they may have owed to the country they were at war with.

You're playing Devil's advocate. Right?

amy31416
10-12-2011, 04:46 PM
I had a conversation this morning with a former military Bush-style neocon (she is a Tea Party member here in Ky). I couldn't break through this shell with a 2x4. Here is what I learned:

WW2 got us out of the great depression

War makes the US economy grow

"If good people stand around and do nothing, we are just as evil as the evildoers"

Our founders were not isolationists like Ron Paul

Ron Paul understands the Constitution better than most, but Herman Cain understands the Islamic caliphate threat

Islamic nations hate us because we are not Muslims

Nation building is a conservative foreign policy




After my polite arguments were shot down by every blood-thirsty reply, there was one thing...ONE thing...that made her pause and really think:

I told her that Ron Paul gets the most donations from military personnel.

It made her pause and think. All in all, it was a total losing conversation, but it was strange that this one fact evoked such a strong emotion from her. It was like she wanted to have some brotherhood (sisterhood) with her fellow soldiers, so she was almost defending why so many military members would donate to Ron.


Sigh...its the tea party for you....

Aside from the neocon Caliphate BS, she sounds like a big-gov't liberal to me. She consider herself a Republican?

danda
10-12-2011, 05:03 PM
.and then she went off on a tangent about how spending money to destroy things and then rebuild them is a benefit to our economy.

In these situations, it is useful to have a good understanding of the broken window fallacy, and be able to explain it clearly and succinctly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window#The_opportunity_cost_ of_war

Sola_Fide
10-12-2011, 07:16 PM
You're playing Devil's advocate. Right?

I hope!

Sola_Fide
10-12-2011, 07:23 PM
In these situations, it is useful to have a good understanding of the broken window fallacy, and be able to explain it clearly and succinctly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window#The_opportunity_cost_ of_war

Oh yeah. I explained Bastiat to her in the simplest terms I could. I tried to explain our history of intervention. I tried to explain blowback. I tried to explain the failure of keyensianism. I tried to explain the founders view of foreign policy. I tried to explain our fiscal crisis that we are in.

But none of these arguments registered. It was only when the troop donations were brought up was she surprised and taken aback. Then, she almost started defending Ron by saying "well, I can see why we military members like Ron because we like a lot of his positions..."etc etc etc...

Voluntary Man
10-12-2011, 07:44 PM
She kept assuring me that "since she served", she had knowledge about foreign affairs that I couldn't possibly have.

as a veteran of elite rapid deployment forces, i can assure you that that is utter nonsense. if her service didn't show her the folly of America's recent foreign policy, she probably spent her service hidden away in a supply closet. get her a copy of General Butler's 'War is a Racket' -- then move on.