PDA

View Full Version : "Romney is NOT a Christian, he's a Mormon" says VVS speaker!




ZanZibar
10-07-2011, 02:46 PM
Just Tweeted from Politico:

Texas evangelical leader Robert Jeffress said this afternoon he does not believe Mitt Romney is a Christian. http://politi.co/r1kNry[/q


SOURCE: http://twitter.com/#!/POLITICO2012 (http://t.co/a4Y6SdI1)

ZanZibar
10-07-2011, 02:46 PM
Also Tweeted by Politico:


Rick Perry does not believe that Mormonism is a cult, his campaign said Friday. http://politi.co/nbGTJu (http://t.co/iDxgc5Rv)

Sola_Fide
10-07-2011, 03:01 PM
I don't understand why this is big news. Mormonism is very, very different from Christianity.

wizardwatson
10-07-2011, 03:10 PM
I don't understand why this is big news. Mormonism is very, very different from Christianity.

They worship Christ, how is it "very very" different?

TexMac
10-07-2011, 03:11 PM
They're playing the Mormon card. Things are going to get ugly.

Aratus
10-07-2011, 03:16 PM
begorrrrahhh an' shades of the wise generation who voted for JFK, Al Smith & thah Purple Shamrock up here,
someone PLEASE DON'T PLAY the Mormon card like this thusly, these fools by blowback almost elect Mr. Mitt!

dannno
10-07-2011, 03:17 PM
I don't understand why this is big news. Mormonism is very, very different from Christianity.

Oh give me a break. You can make up all the crap you want about how it is different, it doesn't mean it's true.

dannno
10-07-2011, 03:28 PM
The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints was founded on the notion that the original Church of Christ which existed during the time of Jesus Christ and the 12 apostles up until some time after his death. God removed his authority from the earth after that time and the gospel became cloudy and tainted by man and rulers (i.e. Catholicism). While the Reformation may have been an intelligent acknowledgement of this and no doubt influential in moving people over to the new world where they could practice their religion freely, the truth had not been restored to the earth yet by a true Prophet. This is key. Joseph Smith is believe to be a Prophet and restored the original Church of Jesus Christ back to the earth.

wizardwatson
10-07-2011, 03:30 PM
The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints was founded on the notion that the original Church of Christ which existed during the time of Jesus Christ and the 12 apostles up until some time after his death. God removed his authority from the earth after that time and the gospel became cloudy and tainted by man and rulers (i.e. Catholicism). While the Reformation may have been an intelligent acknowledgement of this and no doubt influential in moving people over to the new world where they could practice their religion freely, the truth had not been restored to the earth yet by a true Prophet. This is key. Joseph Smith is believe to be a Prophet and restored the original Church of Jesus Christ back to the earth.

Yep. So in a sense, Mormons consider themselves to be MORE of a Christian than non-Mormon Christians.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 03:33 PM
Oh give me a break. You can make up all the crap you want about how it is different, it doesn't mean it's true.


Holy Trinity
Mormons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct beings who are "one in purpose"
Christians: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of the "same substance"; three persons in one being

Original Sin
Mormons: Doesn't exist
Christians: Exists

Scripture
Mormons: For Latter-day Saints the canon remains open.
Christians: the Old and New Testament is the inexhaustible source of Christian belief. The Canon is closed.

Those three are substantial differences.

Also, while honoring the Virgin Mary, Latter-day Saints have no equivalent of the doctrines of the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, and bodily assumption of Mary.

CaptainAmerica
10-07-2011, 03:36 PM
They worship Christ, how is it "very very" different? It is very different, but it doesn't make these "accusations" relevant to the elections. Whether he is or isn't a christian should be of no relevance to electing a good representative.

CaptainAmerica
10-07-2011, 03:37 PM
Oh give me a break. You can make up all the crap you want about how it is different, it doesn't mean it's true.There is nothing to make up, it is different...just as different as how muslims view Jesus as a "prophet."

tribute_13
10-07-2011, 03:39 PM
Mormons are Christians. I lived with Mormons for quite a while when I was in foster care. They believe some wacky things but they ARE christians. Protestant faiths all differ in one way or another.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 03:40 PM
They worship Christ, how is it "very very" different?

You can worship Christ all you want, but that does not automatically make you a Christian. There is much more to being a Christian than worshiping Christ. Worshiping means nothing if you don't understand Christ's teachings and accept Him, the Father and the Holy Spirit as the Holy Trinity.

ZanZibar
10-07-2011, 03:43 PM
Popping popcorn for this discussion.

wizardwatson
10-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Mormons are Christians. I lived with Mormons for quite a while when I was in foster care. They believe some wacky things but they ARE christians. Protestant faiths all differ in one way or another.

Their cosmology is kind of wacky, but not any wackier than Adam and Eve eating soul-damning fruit, Moses parting the red sea, or Noah having two of every animal on his Ark.

So yeah I agree, Mormons are Christians. They aren't different enough to say they are as different from Christianity as Muslims are from Christianity.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 03:45 PM
Popping popcorn for this discussion.

There's not much to discuss. Mormons ≠ Christians.

It's like trying to argue Rick Santorum is an non-interventionist.

TexMac
10-07-2011, 03:46 PM
Does it matter what we think? It's pretty clear that the Republican religious right thinks Mormon are evil cultists.

dannno
10-07-2011, 03:47 PM
Holy Trinity
Mormons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct beings who are "one in purpose"
Christians: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of the "same substance"; three persons in one being

My opinion:

Semantics and extremely insignificant.


The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons (Greek: ὑποστάσεις)[1]: the Father, the Son(Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct yet coexist in unity, and are co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial (Greek: ὁμοούσιοι). Put another way, the three persons of the Trinity are of one being (Greek: οὐσία).[2] The Trinity is considered to be a mystery of Christian faith.[3]

According to this doctrine, God exists as three persons but is one God, meaning that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way.[4] Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have as well.[4] "Thus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinitely wise, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, omniscient."[4]
-Wikipedia

The definition of the trinity as three divine persons that co-exist in unity and purpose.. The only difference I see between the two is that someone who believes in the trinity will say to the person who doesn't, "NO!! They aren't separate.. I mean they are, but they aren't!"


LDS opinion:

Joseph Smith saw God AND Jesus when they appeared to him, God proclaimed that it was his son that was standing there.

Biblical references:


John 20:17

King James Version (KJV)

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.




Acts 7:55-56

King James Version (KJV)

55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


John 17:5,11,20-26; Matt 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22.





Original Sin
Mormons: Doesn't exist
Christians: Exists


Those two are substantial differences.


Ya, see, Mormons believe that a baby who dies before the age of 8 automatically goes to the Celestial Kingdom, which is the highest kingdom in heaven. A non-Mormon Christian believes that if they aren't baptized they go to Hell. I'm not Mormon, but if I had to choose I'd go with the Mormons on this one. I have a hard time believing that if God exists he is sending all the starving babies in Africa to hell, but if you want to believe that, feel free to.

dannno
10-07-2011, 03:47 PM
There is nothing to make up, it is different...just as different as how muslims view Jesus as a "prophet."

Bullshit, Mormons view Jesus as the Lord and Savior.

wizardwatson
10-07-2011, 03:49 PM
You can worship Christ all you want, but that does not automatically make you a Christian. There is much more to being a Christian than worshiping Christ. Worshiping means nothing if you don't understand Christ's teachings and accept Him, the Father and the Holy Spirit as the Holy Trinity.

Look, all I'm saying is that to me, the collective label of "Christian" should apply to Mormons, the same way it applies to Catholics, Baptists, Greek Orthodox and what not. I realize I may be in the minority, but to me putting Christ as a central figure in your worldview, makes you a Christian.

dannno
10-07-2011, 03:49 PM
Mormons are Christians. I lived with Mormons for quite a while when I was in foster care. They believe some wacky things but they ARE christians. Protestant faiths all differ in one way or another.

Ya, it's ridiculous how all Christian faiths vary so much, yet some how they single out the LDS faith as being "not Christian" :rolleyes:

dannno
10-07-2011, 03:53 PM
Look, all I'm saying is that to me, the collective label of "Christian" should apply to Mormons, the same way it applies to Catholics, Baptists, Greek Orthodox and what not. I realize I may be in the minority, but to me putting Christ as a central figure in your worldview, makes you a Christian.

It's not just that he's a central figure, but THE central figure, THE Lord and Savior of mankind. They believe Christ took on our sins.

The differences are so minute, Christians who blow them up are just scared of losing people to the LDS faith because they are the fastest growing religion and their religions are losing people to the LDS faith all the time. It's really strategic, if anything. I guess it all comes down to $$ and power.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 03:53 PM
Ya, see, Mormons believe that a baby who dies before the age of 8 automatically goes to the Celestial Kingdom, which is the highest kingdom in heaven. A non-Mormon Christian believes that if they aren't baptized they go to Hell. I'm not Mormon, but if I had to choose I'd go with the Mormons on this one. I have a hard time believing that if God exists he is sending all the starving babies in Africa to hell, but if you want to believe that, feel free to.

That's just not true.

dannno
10-07-2011, 03:55 PM
That's just not true.

So then they have sinned because of Adam?

And they didn't believe in Christ?

....THEN what happens :confused:

fisharmor
10-07-2011, 03:57 PM
When unravelling such things, though I am not myself Orthodox, I tend to look to what they have to say, given that their theology has remained consistent for the longest stretch of time.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Mormonism


the Orthodox Church clearly teaches that the Most Holy Trinity has always existed precisely as one God: "the Trinity, One in Essence, and Undivided." Mormonism, on the other hand, teaches that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in "purpose" only, and most emphatically not one in essence or hypostasis (as the Orthodox Church teaches). They are three "gods," say the Mormons, and not "one" in anything except a common purpose and mindset. Furthermore, say they, there are potentially billions of "gods" beyond the three they acknowledge as belonging to this world. All of this is diametrically opposed to Orthodox Christian teaching.

If Christ is a god, and they worship him, the existence of potentially billions of other gods puts them more in the Hindu camp than close to anything resembling Christianity.


In the Pearl of Great Price, "Book of Moses" 4:1-4 and "Book of Abraham" 3:27, Mormonism's god explains that in the "preexistence," he asked for a volunteer to serve as the savior of humankind. Two of his "spirit-sons," Jesus and Lucifer, obliged. Lucifer wanted to compel all humans to follow God, while Jesus insisted on the right of each person to choose for themselves. When "Elohim" chose Jesus over Lucifer, say the Mormons, Lucifer rebelled and was cast out of heaven with his followers. They were deprived of all chance to receive a fleshly body, and thus barred from any chance at "godhood."

The June 1986 Ensign, official magazine of the LDS Church, affirmed the teaching that Christ and Satan are, indeed, "spirit brothers"--albeit diametrically opposed "brothers."

All of these teachings, needless to say, are emphatically rejected by the Orthodox Church.


Mormonism apparently teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers.


Mormons have a very difficult time understanding why Orthodox and other Christians deny that they are Christian. The simplest answer to this question is that the Mormon god is simply not God--at least not the God worshipped by Orthodox Christians (and other Trinitarians). This does not mean that the Mormons are necessarily immoral or wicked people, simply that they worship a god completely dissimilar from the Christian Trinity.

Hey, Mormons are free to refer to themselves as Christian. And Christians are just as free to say they aren't.
The Orthodox are among the most theologically shutting-you-out bunch out there... and if they're going to cuddle up with protestants and Catholics over this issue and shut out Mormons.... well that says something.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 03:59 PM
So then they have sinned because of Adam?

And they didn't believe in Christ?

....THEN what happens :confused:

I can't speak for any protestant denomination, but the Catholic Church does not believe unbaptized infants go straight to hell. We have faith in God's mercy and entrust Him to save those children who have died without the opportunity to be cleansed of the original sin.


As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

dannno
10-07-2011, 04:00 PM
I can't speak for any protestant denomination, but the Catholic Church does not believe unbaptized infants go straight to hell. We have faith in God's mercy and entrust Him to save those children who have died without the opportunity to be cleansed of the original sin.

So the original sin doesn't really exist when you are born then.

When do you get it :confused:

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 04:01 PM
It's not just that he's a central figure, but THE central figure, THE Lord and Savior of mankind. They believe Christ took on our sins.

The differences are so minute, Christians who blow them up are just scared of losing people to the LDS faith because they are the fastest growing religion and their religions are losing people to the LDS faith all the time. It's really strategic, if anything. I guess it all comes down to $$ and power.

Again, not true. The fact that they see Christ, the Father and the Holy Spirit as three distinct gods is a HUGE difference from Christians, who recognize that there is but one God.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 04:01 PM
So the original sin doesn't really exist when you are born then.

When do you get it :confused:

When did I say that?

fisharmor
10-07-2011, 04:01 PM
So then they have sinned because of Adam?

And they didn't believe in Christ?

....THEN what happens :confused:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
This does not say "Those who are not baptized will be condemned".
It's Scriptural grey area.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 04:04 PM
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
This does not say "Those who are not baptized will be condemned".
It's Scriptural grey area.

Exactly, that's what the Catholic Church believes. We want to believe in God's mercy and His desire for all men to be saved. We don't know for sure what happens to the unbaptized, but we have faith that He will help them be saved.

Again, I'll post this for dannno:

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Baptism is necessary for those who know about it:

Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament

dannno
10-07-2011, 04:06 PM
If Christ is a god, and they worship him, the existence of potentially billions of other gods puts them more in the Hindu camp than close to anything resembling Christianity.

Uh, no, Mormons don't believe we are subject to multiple Gods, there is only one.

The universe, however, is a very large place.





Mormonism apparently teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers.


They teach that we are all spirit children of God, so we are all brothers and sisters. Jesus just happened to be the first born, and Lucifer happened to be the second born.

Lucifer wanted to force everyone to be good so that everybody could go to Heaven (like Communism).

Jesus wanted to let everyone have free will and choose whether they would come back to him (like Liberty).

God agreed that Jesus had the best plan for salvation and there was a war fought in the spirit world. Lucifer and those who fought for him were cast into hell.




Hey, Mormons are free to refer to themselves as Christian. And Christians are just as free to say they aren't.
The Orthodox are among the most theologically shutting-you-out bunch out there... and if they're going to cuddle up with protestants and Catholics over this issue and shut out Mormons.... well that says something.

To me it says they fear them and don't want to lose power.

Aratus
10-07-2011, 04:06 PM
our gentleman mitt is to mormonism whut wise barack is to congregationalism
andrew johnson is to masonic founding father deism or JFK is to catholicism???

fisharmor
10-07-2011, 04:08 PM
our gentleman mitt is to mormonism whut wise barack is to congregationalism
andrew johnson is to masonic founding father deism or JFK is to catholicism???

Hey, I actually give Mitt credit for not withdrawing his membership in his church to run for president, like Blechmann did.

CaptainAmerica
10-07-2011, 04:16 PM
Bullshit, Mormons view Jesus as the Lord and Savior........mormons are polytheistic.get a grip on reality yo,you're wrong.

Aratus
10-07-2011, 04:24 PM
technically the greeks ancient and many auld romans were into polytheism, goddesses and gods.
trinity is a difficult concept. isaac newton WENT to trinity. mormons are mormons. monotheism.

Aratus
10-07-2011, 04:26 PM
i wuz handing out rep!
gotta remind one + all
our own ZZ is eating
his popcorn as lil ole
ms. michele bachmann
is making her last stand.

CaptainAmerica
10-07-2011, 04:30 PM
technically the greeks ancient and many auld romans were into polytheism, goddesses and gods.
trinity is a difficult concept. isaac newton WENT to trinity. mormons are mormons. monotheism. the trinity is not polytheistic.

Aratus
10-07-2011, 04:35 PM
most modern christians ARE monotheistic. trust me!
many ancient pagans were polytheistic. indeed!!!
our gentleman mitt is in accord with we moderns.

Aratus
10-07-2011, 04:37 PM
the trinity is not polytheistic.
agreed. one can be a deist and into monotheism.
many old pagans found christianity to be confusing.

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 04:39 PM
Holy Trinity
Mormons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct beings who are "one in purpose"
Christians: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of the "same substance"; three persons in one being

Original Sin
Mormons: Doesn't exist
Christians: Exists

Scripture
Mormons: For Latter-day Saints the canon remains open.
Christians: the Old and New Testament is the inexhaustible source of Christian belief. The Canon is closed.

Those three are substantial differences.

Also, while honoring the Virgin Mary, Latter-day Saints have no equivalent of the doctrines of the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, and bodily assumption of Mary.

Baptists don't believe in half these things. Are they Christians? Yes they are. You just defined a specific TYPE of Christian, i.e. a Catholic, not all Christians.

dannno
10-07-2011, 04:39 PM
.......mormons are polytheistic.get a grip on reality yo,you're wrong.

lol, that is so bullshit. I grew up in the religion, that is absolute trash talk with no validity.

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 04:41 PM
Not at all. Mormons believe Jesus to be the divine Son of God, born of a virgin (Mary), who sacrificed Himself to redeem us from our sins by suffering for them, dying on the cross, and Resurrecting three days later, and who is the only source of salvation. Muslims believe none of those things. Mormons are Christian.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 04:44 PM
Baptists don't believe in half these things. Are they Christians? Yes they are. You just defined a specific TYPE of Christian, i.e. a Catholic, not all Christians.

Baptists believe in the Holy Trinity, the original sin, and that the Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.

dannno
10-07-2011, 04:55 PM
Not at all. Mormons believe Jesus to be the divine Son of God, born of a virgin (Mary), who sacrificed Himself to redeem us from our sins by suffering for them, dying on the cross, and Resurrecting three days later, and who is the only source of salvation. Muslims believe none of those things. Mormons are Christian.


That's really what it comes down to, the other religions have leaders and teachers who are just nit-picking because they are jealous that they are losing so many followers to them.

I'm not saying the people here are jealous or are losing money or power, but somebody taught them that these little nit-picking details that really amount to semantics for the most part, rather than any real difference in the belief system.

GeorgiaAvenger
10-07-2011, 05:04 PM
Does it matter what we think? It's pretty clear that the Republican religious right thinks Mormon are evil cultists.

I happen to believe they are cultists with good morals.

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 05:04 PM
When unravelling such things, though I am not myself Orthodox, I tend to look to what they have to say, given that their theology has remained consistent for the longest stretch of time.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Mormonism



If Christ is a god, and they worship him, the existence of potentially billions of other gods puts them more in the Hindu camp than close to anything resembling Christianity.




Mormonism apparently teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers.



Hey, Mormons are free to refer to themselves as Christian. And Christians are just as free to say they aren't.
The Orthodox are among the most theologically shutting-you-out bunch out there... and if they're going to cuddle up with protestants and Catholics over this issue and shut out Mormons.... well that says something.


Your second quote is inaccurate. God the Father called His spiritual children together (us) and told us about life, how we'd sin, and how Jesus would redeem us from our sins if we chose to follow Him. Then Lucifer stood up and said that God was wrong and proposed a different plan in which he would guarantee everyone would return to Heaven because he would take away their ability to do evil. God rejected him and so Lucifer waged war on Heaven to try and force the issue. This was the War In Heaven, which he was cast out for waging. There was never a time that Jesus was not to be our Savior as it was God's plan.

Here is another thing likely to make you denounce Mormonism, but not only were Christ and Lucifer both children of God, but so am I and so are you. Every person is a spiritual child of God. Its why God identifies Himself as the "Father of spirits" in Hebrews, and other places. This is a wonderful doctrine as it explains not just who we are but who we are to become. Other Christians denounce Mormons for believing they can become "gods" but I think it is incredible. God is our Father. He loves us and wants us to have all the joy, light, happiness, and peace that we can have. He, like every great parent, wants us to have the best life possible. And so He makes it possible for us to become the kind of being that He is, the only kind of being that IS capable of eternal joy, eternal light, eternal happiness, eternal love, eternal peace, and eternal life. He invites us into a relationship with Him that fills us so much with who He is that it changes us into who He is. As Paul says in Romans we are heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ to all that Christ has from the Father, or as Revelation says we sit down on the throne of Christ and inherit the kingdom given to Him by the Father. What an incredible truth, that we become like our Father. It does not demote God that He invites us into that with Him, His power does not decrease, his glory is not lessened by it. He has all things in infinite and eternal amounts and He gives that to all His children who follow Him so that they all may have it together. I love that truth, I cherish it. God is truly a God of mercy and a God of love. We cannot do it ourselves, it is only by and through the Atonement of Christ that it is done. But the fact that it is true that we are, even as Christ says, gods, the Sons of God, makes me shout with joy and proclaim hallelujah! It is true and of God and I thank Him for it!

dannno
10-07-2011, 05:09 PM
Your second quote is inaccurate. God the Father called His spiritual children together (us) and told us about life, how we'd sin, and how Jesus would redeem us from our sins if we chose to follow Him. Then Lucifer stood up and said that God was wrong and proposed a different plan in which he would guarantee everyone would return to Heaven because he would take away their ability to do evil. God rejected him and so Lucifer waged war on Heaven to try and force the issue. This was the War In Heaven, which he was cast out for waging. There was never a time that Jesus was not to be our Savior as it was God's plan.

Here is another thing likely to make you denounce Mormonism, but not only were Christ and Lucifer both children of God, but so am I and so are you. Every person is a spiritual child of God. Its why God identifies Himself as the "Father of spirits" in Hebrews, and other places. This is a wonderful doctrine as it explains not just who we are but who we are to become. Other Christians denounce Mormons for believing they can become "gods" but I think it is incredible. God is our Father. He loves us and wants us to have all the joy, light, happiness, and peace that we can have. He, like every great parent, wants us to have the best life possible. And so He makes it possible for us to become the kind of being that He is, the only kind of being that IS capable of eternal joy, eternal light, eternal happiness, eternal love, eternal peace, and eternal life. He invites us into a relationship with Him that fills us so much with who He is that it changes us into who He is. As Paul says in Romans we are heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ to all that Christ has from the Father, or as Revelation says we sit down on the throne of Christ and inherit the kingdom given to Him by the Father. What an incredible truth, that we become like our Father. It does not demote God that He invites us into that with Him, His power does not decrease, his glory is not lessened by it. He has all things in infinite and eternal amounts and He gives that to all His children who follow Him so that they all may have it together. I love that truth, I cherish it. God is truly a God of mercy and a God of love. We cannot do it ourselves, it is only by and through the Atonement of Christ that it is done. But the fact that it is true that we are, even as Christ says, gods, the Sons of God, makes me shout with joy and proclaim hallelujah! It is true and of God and I thank Him for it!


Hah, your pre-existence story was worded way better than mine, I'm pretty rusty.

GeorgiaAvenger
10-07-2011, 05:11 PM
http://carm.org/teachings-of-mormonism

This outlines what Mormons believe, but do not use as an approach to convert people. These are some major differences.


Atonement
"Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane," (Laurel Rohlfing, “Sharing Time: The Atonement,” Friend, Mar. 1989, p. 39.).
"We accept Christ's atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, p. 68.).
Baptism
Baptism for the dead, (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. II, p. 141). This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.
Bible
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." (8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church).
"Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God," (1 Nephi 13:28).
Book of Mormon
The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461).
Devil, the
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
God
God used to be a man on another planet, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321; Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (D&C 130:22).
God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3).
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).
God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105).
God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428).
God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218; vol. 8, p. 115). - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
God, becoming a god
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354.)
"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (D&C 132:20).
God, many gods
There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
"And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light," (Book of Abraham 4:3).
God, mother goddess
There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
God, Trinity
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
Gospel, the
The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 182-185.)
Consists of laws and ordinances: "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79)
Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348).
Holy Ghost, the
The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118; Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 179).
Jesus
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers," (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).
"Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, by Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).
"Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, "God the Father," compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).
Joseph Smith
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).
Pre-existence
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
Prophets
We need prophets today, the same as in the Old Testament, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 444-445).
Salvation
"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 92).
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).
"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 79).
"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts," (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).
Trinity, the
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.).
"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God [anyhow]--three in one and one in three. . .It is curious organization… All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism (Christian faith). It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God--he would be a giant or a monster," (Joseph Smith, Teachings, p. 372).


Christians? I think not.

But lets be clear, they do have a high moral code.

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 05:14 PM
Baptists believe in the Holy Trinity, the original sin, and that the Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.

Not from my experience growing up as a Baptist. Well they believe in the trinity. But they do not believe in original sin. Its actually what the original Baptists were founded on the "believer's baptism" they called it. That only those old enough to understand should be baptized. They rejected original sin and infant baptism.

That said, I was referencing the beliefs in immaculate conception (that Mary's birth was without sin), the perpetual virginity (that Mary was a virgin throughout all her life), or The Assumption (that Mary was taken into Heaven bodily without dying). Those are all specifically Catholic beliefs. That is three of six beliefs btw thus "half".

realtonygoodwin
10-07-2011, 05:18 PM
Mormons consider themselves to be Christians.
However, they see Christ as the Son of God, but they don't acknowledge the deity of Christ and do not worship Christ.

realtonygoodwin
10-07-2011, 05:21 PM
Not from my experience growing up as a Baptist. Well they believe in the trinity. But they do not believe in original sin. Its actually what the original Baptists were founded on the "believer's baptism" they called it. That only those old enough to understand should be baptized. They rejected original sin and infant baptism.

That said, I was referencing the beliefs in immaculate conception (that Mary's birth was without sin), the perpetual virginity (that Mary was a virgin throughout all her life), or The Assumption (that Mary was taken into Heaven bodily without dying). Those are all specifically Catholic beliefs. That is three of six beliefs btw thus "half".

Baptist's don't reject original sin..., original sin is merely humanity's state of sin resulting from the Fall of Man.

dannno
10-07-2011, 05:27 PM
Mormons consider themselves to be Christians.
However, they see Christ as the Son of God, but they don't acknowledge the deity of Christ and do not worship Christ.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUs407sadoY

dannno
10-07-2011, 05:28 PM
Baptist's don't reject original sin..., original sin is merely humanity's state of sin resulting from the Fall of Man.

There is a difference between being in a state of sin and taking on Adam's original sin as your own.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 05:28 PM
Not from my experience growing up as a Baptist. Well they believe in the trinity. But they do not believe in original sin. Its actually what the original Baptists were founded on the "believer's baptism" they called it. That only those old enough to understand should be baptized. They rejected original sin and infant baptism.

That said, I was referencing the beliefs in immaculate conception (that Mary's birth was without sin), the perpetual virginity (that Mary was a virgin throughout all her life), or The Assumption (that Mary was taken into Heaven bodily without dying). Those are all specifically Catholic beliefs. That is three of six beliefs btw thus "half".

The ones about the Virgin Mary I didn't include in the "master list" precisely because they are Catholic/Anglican views.

The other 3, which are very important and are central tenets of all Christian beliefs are the main ones. Mormons do not believe in any of them. Baptists do believe in the original sin, even though they do advocate for adult baptism. They see it differently than Catholics/Anglicans/Orthodox, but recognize it nonetheless.


There is a difference between being in a state of sin and taking on Adam's original sin as your own.

Baptists believe that Original sin is the term for being born a sinner. Remember, man was created in the image and likeness of God. Man was a free moral agent, freely able to choose God or turn away from him. By eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he did the one thing he was asked not to do. Breaking God's one commandment to him was sin. At that point Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden and cut off from the tree of life. From that moment on, the spirit of man was damaged. It is as if man is now born with a moral handicap. He is lame in the most important part of his being- his spirit. The act of sex between a husband and wife is not a sin. In fact, the Apostle Paul said that to withhold sex from your mate is a sin. Original sin does not come to a child because of the sex of their parents but is a sinful nature in man himself that is in everyone since the fall. There is a rebellious nature in most children. They just like to do whatever you tell them not to do. This natural rebellion stems from man's original sin. Instead of being morally free, man has a decided tendency toward sin - urged on toward evil by what is called "the world, the flesh, and the devil." Original sin is a tendency to do evil, not an act of evil itself.

realtonygoodwin
10-07-2011, 05:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUs407sadoY

Doing things "in His name" is not the same as worship. I acknowledge that the LDS believe they follow Christ. But there is a difference between being God the Son, and The Son of God.

Matthew 7:22-23

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

tribute_13
10-07-2011, 05:42 PM
Oh my freaking god people.

Christians encompass both catholicism and all protestant faiths. Mormonism is a protestant faith. It's like saying Ron Paul is a libertarian, not a conservative. Grow the hell up. All thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs. Use your heads people.

realtonygoodwin
10-07-2011, 05:46 PM
Oh my freaking god people.

Christians encompass both catholicism and all protestant faiths. Mormonism is a protestant faith. It's like saying Ron Paul is a libertarian, not a conservative. Grow the hell up. All thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs. Use your heads people.

A. Mormons would be the first to tell you they are not Protestant.
B. I guess it boils down to how you define "Christian."

GeorgiaAvenger
10-07-2011, 05:55 PM
Oh my freaking god people.

Christians encompass both catholicism and all protestant faiths. Mormonism is a protestant faith. It's like saying Ron Paul is a libertarian, not a conservative. Grow the hell up. All thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs. Use your heads people.

Don't criticize if you don't have the facts.

The three main Christian branches are Catholicism, Protestantism, and Eastern Orthodoxy. There are many others as well.

Mormonism is a restorationism religion with its own prophets and teachings. Christianity is a branch off from Judaism, yet we don't call Christians Jews.

I would compare it to Islam. It takes from a religion and then builds up its own set of beliefs.

tribute_13
10-07-2011, 05:55 PM
A. Mormons would be the first to tell you they are not Protestant.
B. I guess it boils down to how you define "Christian."

Does it make any sense for a faith to call themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, just so other christian faiths who are vehemently opposed to their religion can claim they don't follow the teachings Christ. I've gone to a Mormon church, I can assure you they read the New Testament and follow its teachings along with their own texts.

dannno
10-07-2011, 06:01 PM
Does it make any sense for a faith to call themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, just so other christian faiths who are vehemently opposed to their religion can claim they don't follow the teachings Christ. I've gone to a Mormon church, I can assure you they read the New Testament and follow its teachings along with their own texts.

And their leaders don't get paid.

http://faceswaps.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/barack-make-it-rain.gif

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 06:11 PM
http://carm.org/teachings-of-mormonism

This outlines what Mormons believe, but do not use as an approach to convert people. These are some major differences.



Christians? I think not.

But lets be clear, they do have a high moral code.

ATONEMENT: "We accept Christ's Atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," I'd add "and Repenting when we sin". You have a problem with this because? Is it because you think that once you just confess you're a sinner you can go and do whatever you want and it doesn't matter? That is a false doctrine. According to Christ we have to "be born of the water and of the Spirit" in order to enter into the "kingdom of God" (John 3:5). The Apostles were command to go forth and baptize all nations (Matt. 28:19) in the name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost. In Mark 16:16 Christ says you need to believe AND be baptized in order to be saved, all others would be damned. It is clear you need to do more than simply "confess".

BIBLE: I find it ironic you reject prophets based on extra-biblical teaching. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that "380 years after the Book of Revelation is written, when a counsel of men get together and vote which religious material they like and put it together into one volume, THEN are my words finished and you should adhere strictly to that book even though none of you can agree what it means or which translation is best, or which of you is right so really you won't figure out how to adhere strictly to it anyway." The Bible is not infallible. It has passed through to many hands, some books over the case of thousands of years, who weren't inspired or incapable of error. I love the Bible, honor it as holy writ, and respect many of the men who tried the best they could to keep it correct even though many evil men worked to change it to say whatever they wanted. But it isn't perfect and it neither claims to be either perfect OR the word of God.

GOD: The "many gods" are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Those are "the Gods" mentioned in Abraham.

JESUS: To quote Christ "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12:31-32. Clearly there are sins which not even Christ will forgive you for. The sin against the Holy Ghost consists of knowing God is real without any doubt, having Him revealed unto you, and rejecting Him and turning against Him to sin. The hearts of such people turn to the worst types of sin, such as murder and adultery, in their wickedness. They essentially reenact the rebellion of Lucifer in their own lives.

JOSEPH SMITH: There is no salvation outside the Church of God. It is why we do baptisms for the dead. Paul taught that the dead resurrected and could be saved otherwise "why baptize for the dead if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead" (1 Cor. 15:29) Having a testimony is essential in this life in gaining knowledge that The Church of Jesus Christ fo Latter-day Saints is Christ's church since he was the first modern prophet.

Pre-Existence: In Jeremiah 1:5 God tells him that before he was "formed in the belly I knew they and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." When did God ordain Jeremiah a prophet before he was even a fetus? How? In the per-existence when Jeremiah as a spirit lived with God. In Proverbs 8:21-31 we learn that Wisdom was had by the Lord and among the sons of men before even the Earth was formed. How is this so since Adam was only formed AFTER the earth? Because we were spirits with God before our physical creation, spirits with free will and intelligence.

SALVATION: Grace comes by faith and faith comes by works "Faith without works is dead" says James 2:20. And of course dead faith cannot bring forth grace to salvation. God asks us to do our part, to reach for Him as He reaches for us. He even goes so far in 2:19 as to say that belief cannot save because even the devils believe in Christ and tremble before Him yet they are still damned, the implication being so are you if all you do is "believe." As said before baptism is also required for salvation. Mormons understand it isn't their works that saves them, but the Atonement of Christ only yet works, obedience to God and His commandments and repentance when we fail to do so, are required still.

TRINITY:There is plenty of evidence for three separate beings. At Christ's baptism in Matthew 3:16 you have Jesus in the water, the Holy Spirit descending in the form fo the dove, and God The Father speaking form Heaven. Three separate Beings in three separate places. Also in John 17:3 Christ prays that the Apostles, and all those who believe on their words, would be one even as Christ and the Father are one. Obviously Christ didn't mean that all believers should somehow spiritually merge into one being as Trinitarians believe God and Christ are, but that they should be unified in all things "of one heart and one mind" as Christ and God are. This gives us a great understanding of what Christ means when He says "The Father and I are one" as well. Here it is clarified that they one in the same way all believers should be one, not as a separate but mystically same being.

You may notice I didn't address God or "Mother God" as you said it. God has form. That much is evident from Exodus 33 where Moses speaks to God face to face as a man speaketh to his friend (verse 11) and also sees his "back parts" (verse 23) which also implies he has "front parts" too. But as for His body, and the existence of His wife, that comes down to modern revelation. The Bible is silent on these, but you can know if they are true or not. And just saying "the Bible doesn't talk about it therefore it can't be true" is a cop out. The Bible doesn't talk about bacteria, or the planet Jupiter, or other galaxies, or movies, yet we all know these things are real as well. I testify that it is real. That Joseph Smith was a Prophet, that God speaks today, that He loves us and the Jesus Christ is my Savior and Friend. I love them and I love you.

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 06:17 PM
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
This does not say "Those who are not baptized will be condemned".
It's Scriptural grey area.

Mark 16:16 says those who do not believe and are baptized are damned. Its why babies are baptized, to save them from damnation.

dannno
10-07-2011, 06:19 PM
Mark 16:16 says those who do not believe and are baptized are damned. Its why babies are baptized, to save them from damnation.

I think this needs a slight re-wording :confused:

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 06:22 PM
The ones about the Virgin Mary I didn't include in the "master list" precisely because they are Catholic/Anglican views.

Then are those who don't believe in them Christian if they don't believe them? You denounced Mormons as non-Christians based on them. What about Protestants? And if tehy are Christians without believing them, then why not Mormons?

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 06:26 PM
I think this needs a slight re-wording :confused:

I should say "its why some churches baptize babies, to save them from being damned." Mark 16:16 for those unable to get access to an online Bible "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." It is clear to me that belief leads to the act of baptism and those two combined lead to salvation. Not believing,and therefore not being baptized, leads to damnation.

CaptainAmerica
10-07-2011, 06:27 PM
Baptists don't believe in half these things. Are they Christians? Yes they are. You just defined a specific TYPE of Christian, i.e. a Catholic, not all Christians. you miss one key element. Mormons believe in polytheism,that "God" the Father was once like us,and that through his noble deeds he became a "God"..and that such a thing can be achieved by humans. Tell me again that its christian,..the ignorance astounds me.

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 06:33 PM
Hah, your pre-existence story was worded way better than mine, I'm pretty rusty.

But still pretty accurate. Thanks for the help setting things correct too. Its very appreciated.

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 06:39 PM
you miss one key element. Mormons believe in polytheism,that "God" the Father was once like us,and that through his noble deeds he became a "God"..and that such a thing can be achieved by humans. Tell me again that its christian,..the ignorance astounds me.

It sure is. It is a truth that comes from God, revealed from Heaven, through modern prophets. Just because you reject it as non-Christian doesn't make it so as it comes from Christ Himself. What astounds me is that Christianity has stopped being the revealed will of God and become a fossilized dead faith. Its more akin to Pharisaical Judaism than the living truth of Christ.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 06:39 PM
Then are those who don't believe in them Christian if they don't believe them? You denounced Mormons as non-Christians based on them. What about Protestants? And if tehy are Christians without believing them, then why not Mormons?

I was saying I don't believe Mormons are Christians, and that most Christians would not consider them to be Christian either based on the points I made. I highlighted the 3 main ones, because those are core beliefs that all Christians share and Mormons do not.

I added the ones about the Virgin Mary because those are beliefs that Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox and some Lutherans and Reformers hold and are very important to their faiths.

erowe1
10-07-2011, 06:42 PM
Oh give me a break. You can make up all the crap you want about how it is different, it doesn't mean it's true.

Isn't it practically a prerequisite of being a Mormon to believe that it is very different?

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 06:46 PM
I was saying I don't believe Mormons are Christians, and that most Christians would not consider them to be Christian either based on the points I made. I highlighted the 3 main ones, because those are core beliefs that all Christians share and Mormons do not.

I added the ones about the Virgin Mary because those are beliefs that Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox and some Lutherans and Reformers hold and are very important to their faiths.

But even it that your wrong as many Protestant faiths reject original sin and baptism. Catholics do not view the Bible as the final source of truth, that is the Pope through his position as successor to Saint Peter. He may use the Bible as a guide, but it isn't necessary. He doesn't gain "revelation" but His power of inspiration is infallible to them and he can issue papal bulls that have nothing to do with the Bible but have as much binding doctrinal force based on that infallibility alone. Does that make Catholics non-Christian, to have another source of doctrine other than the Bible? Many Protestants would say so.

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 06:49 PM
Isn't it practically a prerequisite of being a Mormon to believe that it is very different?

This is true in that you believe traditional Christianity went astray. But that isn't the same as saying that they aren't followers of Christ either. We believe traditional Christians follow the Savior but have some things incorrect. On the other hand I cannot count how many times I have been told I do not, and can not, be a worshiper of Christ because I am LDS. That is what this whole thread is really over. By saying LDS aren't Christian its basically saying they don't worship Jesus, which is untrue. And that annoys me greatly because its denying what I know with all of my being, that Christ is my Savior, Lord, and King.

eduardo89
10-07-2011, 06:59 PM
But even it that your wrong as many Protestant faiths reject original sin and baptism. Catholics do not view the Bible as the final source of truth, that is the Pope through his position as successor to Saint Peter. He may use the Bible as a guide, but it isn't necessary. He doesn't gain "revelation" but His power of inspiration is infallible to them and he can issue papal bulls that have nothing to do with the Bible but have as much binding doctrinal force based on that infallibility alone. Does that make Catholics non-Christian, to have another source of doctrine other than the Bible? Many Protestants would say so.

Catholics do view the Bible as the ultimate source of truth. What you're talking about is Papal Infallibility, which is only valid in the interpretation. This dogma, however, does not state either that the Pope cannot sin in his own personal life or that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity. The Catholic Church does not teach that the Pope is infallible in everything he says; official invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare. There are really only two examples of it ever being used: Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and Pope Pius XII's 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary and they weren't changes to Catholic teachings, but more reaffirming the long-standing official positions of the Church.

Original_Intent
10-07-2011, 07:49 PM
Certainly Mormonism is different from every OTHER Christian faith - VERY different. However, one thing I can say with certainty, is we believe that salvation comes ONLY through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We beleive that only thru faith in Jesus Christ can you be cleansed of sin. We believe in the importance of works ONLY because a person with faith will show that faith thru works...anything else is "drawing near to (Him) with their lips, but their hearts are far from (Him).

We do believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are distinct personages, but ONE God. At the baptism of Jesus, did not the Holy Spirit descend in the form of a dove and a voice from heaven proclaim the divinity of Christ? We do not believe that Christ was being a prestidigitator nor a ventriliquist. Also, Christ commanded that we all be one "even as I and the Father are one." He wanted us to be one in purpose, not somehow meld into some combined being sharing a single physical body.

But the bottom line is, redemption from the chains of hell come only through Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary and the Eternal Father. Christ is the chief cornerstone. Please explain to me what above and beyond that belief is required to be Christian? Most of the beliefs you quote (that you have and that we don't) were voted on by the Nicene counsel hundreds of years after Christ lived. Shame on you to think you have authority to discern who is Christian and who is not (that takes upon themself the name of Christ).

dannno
10-07-2011, 07:54 PM
Certainly Mormonism is different from every OTHER Christian faith - VERY different. However, one thing I can say with certainty, is we believe that salvation comes ONLY through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We beleive that only thru faith in Jesus Christ can you be cleansed of sin. We believe in the importance of works ONLY because a person with faith will show that faith thru works...anything else is "drawing near to (Him) with their lips, but their hearts are far from (Him).

We do believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are distinct personages, but ONE God. At the baptism of Jesus, did not the Holy Spirit descend in the form of a dove and a voice from heaven proclaim the divinity of Christ? We do not believe that Christ was being a prestidigitator nor a ventriliquist. Also, Christ commanded that we all be one "even as I and the Father are one." He wanted us to be one in purpose, not somehow meld into some combined being sharing a single physical body.

But the bottom line is, redemption from the chains of hell come only through Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary and the Eternal Father. Christ is the chief cornerstone. Please explain to me what above and beyond that belief is required to be Christian? Most of the beliefs you quote (that you have and that we don't) were voted on by the Nicene counsel hundreds of years after Christ lived. Shame on you to think you have authority to discern who is Christian and who is not (that takes upon themself the name of Christ).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pS7sKjlzwFg/S_pBP3Q2zGI/AAAAAAAAFqM/p-G-fMOH0Vw/s320/kelso-burn.jpg

idiom
10-07-2011, 07:58 PM
Oh the pain of people arguing back and forth on things they clearly haven't taken the time to understand but would live an die for :(

dannno
10-07-2011, 08:00 PM
Oh the pain of people arguing back and forth on things they clearly haven't taken the time to understand but would live an die for :(

Dude, I have almost half the posts in this thread and I'm agnostic..

I just always thought growing up as a Mormon that the argument that Mormons aren't Christian was ridiculous.

Aratus
10-07-2011, 08:04 PM
^you must spread reputation around before you can give it to dannno again!^

Omphfullas Zamboni
10-07-2011, 08:05 PM
Is there any way this VVS kerfuffle could be utilized to persuade potential voters to switch to Ron Paul?

BlackTerrel
10-07-2011, 08:14 PM
I am never a fan of the "I decide who is a Christian" people. Very judgmental.

The Mormons I have met have been without exception some of the most amazing human beings I have ever met. I can't say enough good things about them.

All that said his religion will hurt Romney - and if that helps Ron Paul so be it.

PierzStyx
10-07-2011, 10:31 PM
Probably not. Perry is appealing to his base, not against them. If anything it'll drive more Mormons to Romney for the sake of solidarity.

hard@work
10-08-2011, 12:34 AM
Muslims also have a prophet who believed in Jesus.

Theocrat
10-08-2011, 06:11 AM
Mitt Romney is not a Christian, but even if he was, his views on civil government do not comport with the Bible (like most of the GOP candidates who consider themselves Christians).

acptulsa
10-08-2011, 06:38 AM
If Christ is a god, and they worship him, the existence of potentially billions of other gods puts them more in the Hindu camp than close to anything resembling Christianity.

Well, perhaps. But, you know, we don't live in a celestial sphere after all. Turns out American Exceptionalism is a recipe for disaster, and maybe Human Exceptionalism is too. Certainly our insistence that God can't send Jesus to save one group and Mohammed to save another group has led to some terrible intolerance we would be better off without. But to deny that Yahweh and Allah are one and the same is to deny that Isaac and Ishmael were brothers, imo.

There are a lot of Islamic and Christian fundamentalists who do a lot of shouting about how their path to God is the only path to God. That isn't giving God much credit, is it? Any good mortal parent can love all of his or her children equally, though they be different, and relate to each differently. Yet we don't assume God can do the same? Really?


Mormonism apparently teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers.

And Christianity teaches that Satan is an angel, and converses with God regularly.


Hey, Mormons are free to refer to themselves as Christian. And Christians are just as free to say they aren't.
The Orthodox are among the most theologically shutting-you-out bunch out there... and if they're going to cuddle up with protestants and Catholics over this issue and shut out Mormons.... well that says something.

When someone that arrogantly exclusive tries to cuddle up to me, I tend to shy away...


...but even if he was, his views on civil government do not comport with the Bible (like most of the GOP candidates who consider themselves Christians).

There's a bottom line I can stand behind.

Agorism
10-08-2011, 09:26 AM
There are a lot of different interpretations of the "trinity" depending on which sect of Christianity you're in even beyond the mormon stuff.

TheDrakeMan
10-08-2011, 09:52 AM
you miss one key element. Mormons believe in polytheism,that "God" the Father was once like us,and that through his noble deeds he became a "God"..and that such a thing can be achieved by humans. Tell me again that its christian,..the ignorance astounds me.

The Bible never says other gods don't exist. It just gives the commandment to worship our God Yahweh, that's it. Eternal progression makes sense logically.

yummysmokedham
10-08-2011, 05:05 PM
This is the way I have always looked at it. A good defenition of Christian I came across is as follows: of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Jesus Christ I believe in as a Protestant is not the same Jesus Christ that Mormons believe in. The Jesus I believe in is God in human form. The Jesus Christ that Mormons believe in is the literal Son of God, brother of Satan. Therfore since its not the same Jesus, they are not Christians IMHO.

PierzStyx
10-08-2011, 05:18 PM
The Bible never says other gods don't exist. It just gives the commandment to worship our God Yahweh, that's it. Eternal progression makes sense logically.

Made sense to C.S. Lewis who declared "There is no such thing as a normal person. Every person is a potential god or goddess" and should be treated as such.

Aratus
10-08-2011, 05:21 PM
right after the V-TECH win over MIAMI our local ABC news came on.
mitt romney's quote on the poisonous rhetoric topped the coverage.
not a word was said about ron paul's sweep in the V. V. Summit poll.

fisharmor
10-08-2011, 08:46 PM
Mark 16:16 says those who do not believe and are baptized are damned. Its why babies are baptized, to save them from damnation.

No, it doesn't. I quoted the text verbatim from the English Standard Version.
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." -ESV, clearly not stating that not being baptized will condemn you.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." 21st century King James.
" He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. " American Standard Version.
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." Good News Version
"He who believes it and is baptised will be saved, but he who disbelieves it will be condemned." Original King James.
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." NIV
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. " RSV

Every single translation I can find says the exact same thing, and none of them say that the unbaptized are damned.
Most translations don't even say "damn", they translate to "condemn" which has a totally different connotation.
The Greek word is κατακριθήσεται (katakrethesetai), which means "1) to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment 1a) to condemn 1b) by one's good example to render another's wickedness the more evident and censurable".

So unless the Mormon version somehow translated it differently from every single other effort, then Scripture teaches that those who disbelieve - without respect to baptism - are condemned, as in they are *judged* worthy of punishment. It's also clear that disbelief - at least in this passage - is not necessarily what causes *actual* punishing.



Most of the beliefs you quote (that you have and that we don't) were voted on by the Nicene counsel hundreds of years after Christ lived. Shame on you to think you have authority to discern who is Christian and who is not (that takes upon themself the name of Christ).

And shame on you for characterizing the Nicene council as some event where everyone got together and took a 51% vote on what Bible to force down everyone's throat. The topic of Biblical canon wasn't even addressed there.

The original and principal purpose of the council was to address the Arian heresy. All but two of the attendees (there were between 250 and 318 of them) voted against Arius. I don't exactly call that "voting for it hundreds of years after Christ lived" - I call it "oh crap this guy is saying stuff that is contrary to what we already believe and it's in the best interest of the Church to address it formally".

Biblical canon actually took a lot longer to solidify, but it happened in the same way. Everyone was already using it. By the time it became codified it was merely a formality. It had already been cemented through tradition.

cindy25
10-08-2011, 09:15 PM
It is very different, but it doesn't make these "accusations" relevant to the elections. Whether he is or isn't a christian should be of no relevance to electing a good representative.

they should not be relevant, but religion does play a role, just as race, weight, baldness etc effect anything.

V4Vendetta
10-08-2011, 09:18 PM
mormons are a cult is every sense of the word

COpatriot
10-08-2011, 09:57 PM
mormons are a cult is every sense of the word
NEWSFLASH: Every religion is a cult. It's all about money and mind control.

Becker
10-08-2011, 11:45 PM
Holy Trinity
Mormons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct beings who are "one in purpose"
Christians: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of the "same substance"; three persons in one being


Does the word trinity or "one being 3 persons" appear in the New Testament in any way, shape or form?




Original Sin
Mormons: Doesn't exist
Christians: Exists


are there no Christians who believe each person CHOSE to sin after he was born himself?


Scripture
Mormons: For Latter-day Saints the canon remains open.
Christians: the Old and New Testament is the inexhaustible source of Christian belief. The Canon is closed.


Does the Bible say "this is where the story ends"?

Sola_Fide
10-08-2011, 11:59 PM
Mormons are most certainly NOT Christians. Mormons are polytheists, Christians are monotheists. Mormons think God is a man, the Scripture says God is spirit. Christians are Trinitarian, Mormons do not believe in the deity of Christ. There are countless examples of where Mormonism is worlds apart from Christianity. Please watch:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijUc7NI2O28&feature=youtube_gdata_player

svobody
10-09-2011, 02:01 AM
Yeah, Mormonism is pretty far from Christianity. It's pretty hilarious that the only people who will say Mormonism = Christianity are... Mormons, and non-religious people. Most Mormon people have such a lack of basic Christian theological knowledge it's nearly embarrassing. I mean no offense, but the Church knows that if you did a thorough research of the fundamental basics of Christianity, you'd end up Orthodox (most likely), Catholic, or in one of the Protestant churches. Hell, most Protestant churches offer no lessons in the historical origins of theology / why the beliefs are what they are. I mean, sure, you can say Mormons believe in Jesus Christ, but the Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon is not the same one of the Bible.

If I wrote an "addition" to the Bible, claimed it was just as valid as the Bible, claimed it was divinely inspired, named my religion "Paulitheism", and then used my new Book of Paulitheism in the majority of my religious services, you think it wouldn't get called a cult? Sorry guys, but it would. And I say this with the utmost respect for my Mormon friends who are very lovely and moral people.

amisspelledword
10-09-2011, 04:17 PM
im LDS. we consider ourselves christian. it is offensive to say otherwise, but of course, im aware that its not uncommon for people to think otherwise. i dont allow myself to get too worked up over it. the debate here is obviously "how do you define christian?"

...

CaptainAmerica
10-09-2011, 04:20 PM
NEWSFLASH: Every religion is a cult. It's all about money and mind control.newsflash, christianity is not an occult.

erowe1
10-09-2011, 04:22 PM
im LDS. we consider ourselves christian. it is offensive to say otherwise.

Why is that offensive?

If you said that I wasn't a Mormon it wouldn't offend me.

helmuth_hubener
10-14-2011, 12:46 PM
As a Mormon, I think we should just call ourselves "followers of Jesus" and leave the "Christian" label to those so anxious to have it. Their behavior over the centuries has kind of tarnished the brand anyway. We are followers of Jesus, and yes, obviously the same Jesus as all the "Christians" follow, so I personally prefer to just leave it at that. Let exclusionists define JWs, Adventists, Catholics, and Mormons out of Christianity. Who wants to lumped in as part of their club anyway? I don't.

By the way, does anyone have a link to the video where Ron Paul defended Mitt Romney's faith on Fox, saying it's silly to argue over the definition of a cult? I know I saw a link, but now I can't find it.