Question. What does Wall Street Produce.

[pcosmar]

I asked in another thread,,
With so many opposing the protests and defending the banks and corporations, I have to ask..
What does Wall Street Produce. What crops are grown there? What products are manufactured? Do they have storage for the commodities or shipping them to market?

Or do they just take profits? Buy and sell and trade for profit without producing anything.

What does Wall Street Produce that is of any benefit?

[AuH20]

Hedge funds package private capital for certain endeavors. Wall Street makes bets, processes bond sales and invests in certain corporations? I'd agree with you that their importance is extremely overstated.

[LibertyEagle]

What? The idea used to be that it was a mechanism for individual people to invest in companies that they believed were successful and that would return a profit to them. The companies used that money to grow their businesses.

Why do you have a problem with that?

[AuH20]

What? The idea used to be that it was a mechanism for individual people to invest in companies that they believed were successful and that would return a profit to them. The companies used that money to grow their businesses.

Why do you have a problem with that?

I think he's referring more to the firms who have a very poor reputation.

[pcosmar]

What? The idea used to be that it was a mechanism for individual people to invest in companies that they believed were successful and that would return a profit to them. The companies used that money to grow their businesses.

Why do you have a problem with that?

So you can't just invest in a company without a middleman?

Say,, an Oil Refiner could not just buy Crude Oil from the producer without going through a middleman?

Or an Orange Juice bottler could not just buy oranges from a orchard? Without a middleman (or several) taking a cut?

[Sentient Void]

They are brokers. They bring buyers and sellers together. Wall street does this at a very high volume, and a very rapid pace. Stock brokers and brokers in general are needed for any modern, advanced, complex, and large economy in order to decentrally manage investment and the flow of capital.

It is an absolutely vital service that makes markets more efficient.

[stuntman stoll]

What does your local bank produce? Nothing. What does the local bank do? Facilitates transfers of capitol on a local level.
What does wallstreet produce? Nothing. What does wallstreet do? Facilitates transfers of capitol on a much larger scale.

[willwash]

I don't think he's talking about traditional "investors" either, who look to finance the growth of a company or product they believe in...it's the day traders...the guys who just understand the science behind buy low, sell high, make money. What trickle down benefit does their prosperity give the rest of the world? It doesn't give people jobs...it doesn't support any industry or produce any actual wealth. In fact their actions serve only to concentrate wealth in their own hands. Sure Warren Buffet gives a lot to charity...but that's really all I can say for the man.

[Sentient Void]

Middle men aren't 'required', pcosmar - but they make the process a lot more effective and efficient. It would be more costly to do so without them than with them. Much more costly, and much clunkier.

[pcosmar]

They are brokers.

It is an absolutely vital service that makes markets more efficient.

Vital and efficient.
I do question that. They are profitable,, for Wall Street.

but since telephones and especially with the internet far less necessary.

[Travlyr]

Vital and efficient.
I do question that. They are profitable,, for Wall Street.

but since telephones and especially with the internet far less necessary.

I agree. There is no need for them anymore. Wall Street and Banking as we know it is obsolete. Home safes are safer than banks. And craigslist, along with other websites, are more efficient than Wall Street.

[stuntman stoll]

Vital and efficient.
I do question that. They are profitable,, for Wall Street.

but since telephones and especially with the internet far less necessary.

Where do you buy your breakfast cereal from? The the General Mills factory in MN? Of course not. You buy it from a middleman/broker (grocery store). When a company needs to raise $1 billion to build a new factory, they do not find 100,000 people to barrow $10,000 each from. They go to goldman sachs and get a $1 billion check.

Both sides benefit from a middleman that improves efficiency (if they didn't improve efficiency, they wouldn't exist)

[Cap'n Crunk]

They provide liquidity. They marketplace would be very inefficient without locals.

[anaconda]

I asked in another thread,,
With so many opposing the protests and defending the banks and corporations, I have to ask..
What does Wall Street Produce. What crops are grown there? What products are manufactured? Do they have storage for the commodities or shipping them to market?

Or do they just take profits? Buy and sell and trade for profit without producing anything.

What does Wall Street Produce that is of any benefit?

They provide products and services. I mean, your auto mechanic isn't growing any crops, either. The problem with Wall Street is their connection to the Fed and bailout cronyism with the corrupt congress. Take these away and we might have a very nice competitive financial sector.

[Brian4Liberty]

They are brokers. They bring buyers and sellers together. Wall street does this at a very high volume, and a very rapid pace. Stock brokers and brokers in general are needed for any modern, advanced, complex, and large economy in order to decentrally manage investment and the flow of capital.

It is an absolutely vital service that makes markets more efficient.

^That right there is the valuable and valid service they perform.


it's the day traders...the guys who just understand the science behind buy low, sell high, make money. What trickle down benefit does their prosperity give the rest of the world?

Apparently that method of making money is so valuable to the world that it deserves a tax rate of zero, while if you actually do something productive, we want to increase taxes on you!

[Cap'n Crunk]

I don't think he's talking about traditional "investors" either, who look to finance the growth of a company or product they believe in...it's the day traders...the guys who just understand the science behind buy low, sell high, make money. What trickle down benefit does their prosperity give the rest of the world? It doesn't give people jobs...it doesn't support any industry or produce any actual wealth. In fact their actions serve only to concentrate wealth in their own hands. Sure Warren Buffet gives a lot to charity...but that's really all I can say for the man.

Day traders make the market efficient. When a traditional investor wants to buy or sell a stock, he gets a better price because of the day traders. They provide more competitive markets. Phillip Morris closed at $64.58. Without day traders you might see a spread of 63/65. So the traditional investor can buy at 65 or sell at 63. Day traders come in. All of a sudden that spread is 64.56/64.58.

[Brian4Liberty]

I asked in another thread,,
With so many opposing the protests and defending the banks and corporations, I have to ask..
What does Wall Street Produce. What crops are grown there? What products are manufactured? Do they have storage for the commodities or shipping them to market?

Or do they just take profits? Buy and sell and trade for profit without producing anything.

What does Wall Street Produce that is of any benefit?

If we ignore the valuable services they perform, we can look at what else they do:

- They package, repackage and sell debt. They encourage everyone, especially governments to go deeper into debt, so that they can make more profits. They control government policy to ensure that massive debt continues.
- They run the world's largest casino.
- They gamble in that same casino, with extreme insider and house advantages.
- They churn the trading of stocks and other financial instruments, as they get a cut of every transaction.
- They create bubbles (often with the help of the Federal Reserve) and they create crashes. Not only does this churn the market (see above), they are also buying low and selling high every time, as they are obviously the insiders on these movements.
- They encourage leveraging, as they make money there too.
- They take part in corporate raids and buy-outs where a functioning profitable company is disemboweled for it's assets.
- They encourage and profit from mergers and acquisitions, where they and the few executives that go along with them can rake in huge, one time profits. This is at the expense of a functioning company, it's employees, and it's customers.
- They borrow money from the government at nearly zero interest, and then lend that money back to the government with a higher rate of return.
- They sell assets to the government for 100 cents on the dollar, and then buy them back from the government for pennies on the dollar.
- Etc, etc, etc.

[The Free Hornet]

Do they have storage for the commodities or shipping them to market?

The people with the storage and shipping capabilities (and growing and mining) need a way to sell product at a stable price. Without the commodities market, your loads of grain could show up at the market and there will be an oversupply (big loss) or undersupply (big profit) situation. The market allows you to sell that grain at a price you deem reasonable anytime you want:


The first "futures contracts" were likely handshakes between dealers and farmers; an agreement that outlined the purchase price and quantity of the grain delivered by the farmer at a future date in time. Soon these contracts were written agreements, and speculators began trading in these futures contracts with the hope the laws of supply and demand would work in their favor.

http://www.money-zine.com/Investing/Investing/Intro-to-Commodity-Trading/

The same is true for investing in a business. You can buy stock in Ford motor company and sell it whenever you want at a market rate. If you buy a 10% share of your sister's auto dealership, you will have a much harder time finding a buyer if you want to get out or raise cash.

[pcosmar]

Where do you buy your breakfast cereal from? The the General Mills factory in MN? Of course not. You buy it from a middleman/broker (grocery store). When a company needs to raise $1 billion to build a new factory, they do not find 100,000 people to barrow $10,000 each from. They go to goldman sachs and get a $1 billion check.

Both sides benefit from a middleman that improves efficiency (if they didn't improve efficiency, they wouldn't exist)

The store, the warehouse and the shipping company, are all providing a service. The grower and the manufacturer are providing a product.

I was referring to those that are neither providing product nor service but buy and sell commodities while taking profits with each transaction adding nothing of value in the process.

Funny you should mention a (Federal Reserve) Bank in there. I do believe there is more than a passing connection here.

At one time their was likely some utility in connecting raw producers with manufacturing, but that is almost instantaneous communication these days. And yet these buggy-whip manufactures are still taking their cut.

[Brown Sapper]

I think the worst part of the whole Wall Street scam is the whole 401k plan that every company uses for their retirement plan. I just a tool to keep the common man invested in that whole scam. They're essentially using our retirement as blackmail.

[Cap'n Crunk]

The store, the warehouse and the shipping company, are all providing a service. The grower and the manufacturer are providing a product.

I was referring to those that are neither providing product nor service but buy and sell commodities while taking profits with each transaction adding nothing of value in the process.

Funny you should mention a (Federal Reserve) Bank in there. I do believe there is more than a passing connection here.

At one time their was likely some utility in connecting raw producers with manufacturing, but that is almost instantaneous communication these days. And yet these buggy-whip manufactures are still taking their cut.

They are providing a service. They provide liquidity. Any one can come to the market at any time and expect a tight spread. Future markets are an essential part of our economy and day traders allow this market to exist. One example is airlines buy futures in oil and sell airline tickets months in advance to their customers.

[LibertyEagle]

I think the worst part of the whole Wall Street scam is the whole 401k plan that every company uses for their retirement plan. I just a tool to keep the common man invested in that whole scam. They're essentially using our retirement as blackmail.

If you are talking about matching funds, they are a benefit that some companies provide. They don't have to, you know. Nor, is anyone forcing us to participate in 401Ks. It would be different if they were.

[dannno]

Vital and efficient.
I do question that. They are profitable,, for Wall Street.

but since telephones and especially with the internet far less necessary.

The argument would be that they are a part of the invisible hand, people who have savings trying to make a return by investing in companies which produce goods and services we desire....

HOWEVER...

In reality Wall St. operates not on savings but on debt. Corporations profit not by serving the community but by paying off politicians to give them money and pass rules that favor their industry or their company within their industry. This creates an incentive for Wall St. to play the corporatism game, big time. That's why I have no issue protesting against them.

If we had a free market and sound money, Wall St. would be smaller. Our financial industry would be MUCH smaller. Because our economy operates on debt, our financial sector is enormous. This is all due to government intervention into the market.

[pcosmar]

If we had a free market and sound money,

That is the BIG IF now isn't it.

[Cap'n Crunk]

The argument would be that they are a part of the invisible hand, people who have savings trying to make a return by investing in companies which produce goods and services we desire....

HOWEVER...

In reality Wall St. operates not on savings but on debt. Corporations profit not by serving the community but by paying off politicians to give them money and pass rules that favor their industry or their company within their industry. This creates an incentive for Wall St. to play the corporatism game, big time. That's why I have no issue protesting against them.

If we had a free market and sound money, Wall St. would be smaller. Our financial industry would be MUCH smaller. Because our economy operates on debt, our financial sector is enormous. This is all due to government intervention into the market.

I forget wgo said that wall street is just a tentacle of the problem. We need to be attacking the Federal Reserve (the body).

[Cutlerzzz]

I asked in another thread,,
With so many opposing the protests and defending the banks and corporations, I have to ask..
What does Wall Street Produce. What crops are grown there? What products are manufactured? Do they have storage for the commodities or shipping them to market?

Or do they just take profits? Buy and sell and trade for profit without producing anything.

What does Wall Street Produce that is of any benefit?I've heard this a few times before from socialists...

What does anyone produce? Relatively few jobs produce physical goods. Wall Street coordinates production, capital, and resources. Without Wall Street or something similar, the market could not function effectively.

[fisharmor]

If you are talking about matching funds, they are a benefit that some companies provide. They don't have to, you know. Nor, is anyone forcing us to participate in 401Ks. It would be different if they were.

No, they're not forcing my employer to participate in 401k plans.
My employer is free to pay additional taxes for not participating in it.
I am also free to take a 2% pay cut if I choose not to participate.
In short, both my employer and I are free to choose to be poorer.

They are forcing us to participate in the tax system, however.
The fact that they're allowing us to choose a smaller penalty in this forced system doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.

[pcosmar]

What does anyone produce? Relatively few jobs produce physical goods.
That does seem like a problem. I do not believe this was always the case. In fact i believe the country was more wealthy when we actually produced "stuff".


Wall Street coordinates production, capital, and resources. Without Wall Street or something similar, the market could not function effectively.
Perhaps, but this is why I asked the question.
I believe a Free Market could function quite well without them, or with them operating in a lesser capacity.

The Black Market(free market) seems to function quite well without them.

[jmdrake]

Great thread! As for the whole "They provide efficiency and wouldn't exist if they didn't" poppycock! Goldman Sachs (the very bank mentioned) does not provide "efficiency". With the internet today you really could raise 1 billion from 10,000 people for your new factory without the bank middleman. That's part of the reason Ron Paul is so dangerous to the PTB. People are seeing how to efficiently pool their money for the common good. Such internet investment systems have sprung up, and the Goldman Sachs' of the world have been using the power of the federal regulators to try to head this off at the pass.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?254484-Spawn-of-Goldman-Sachs-pushes-government-crackdown-on-P2P-loans

[Cutlerzzz]

That does seem like a problem. I do not believe this was always the case. In fact i believe the country was more wealthy when we actually produced "stuff".


Claiming that service sector jobs have no use? Really? The claim that we were wealthier in the 50s when the trend towards service sector jobs over manufacturing jobs started is not even worth addressing.


Perhaps, but this is why I asked the question.
I believe a Free Market could function quite well without them, or with them operating in a lesser capacity.

Why? There is absolutely no basis for your claims.


The Black Market(free market) seems to function quite well without them.
The black market, and people in it, use resources related to the service sector all of the time. The black market frequently employs people in the service sector itself.

There is not a facepalm big enough for this post.

http://thediabeticduo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/implied-facepalm.jpg

[Diurdi]

Even speculation produces value for society. The problem is that Wall Street is not playing by the same rules as smaller speculators, investors or lenders are. Financial types do produce value as long as they're not fraudulent. The more they're right the better they produce value.


Buying cheap and selling expensive moves sought after assets in time from where there is less need for them to where there is more.

For any price stability and safety that manufacturers need for their products, there needs to be someone willing to absorb the risk. Financial instruments are great for that, and finance guys identify what risk is worth taking.

[bunklocoempire]

What does Wall Street Produce?

I think that has been covered here. ( I agree that the 'you need me because I say you need me' sentiment is what's really going on.)

I've always been fascinated with what Wall Street provides.

As in providing a scape goat or smoke screen for bigger goings on. Just big and vague enough to act as a punching bag to satisfy an ignorant publics anger, and just big and complex enough to escape any real harm when politicians pretend to address the situation.

Tangible item is tangible item.

A somewhat tangible item with mythos attached is god like.

Mythos: "A story or set of stories relevant to or having a significant truth perceived truth or meaning for a particular culture, religion, society, or other group."

'Wall Street' enjoys it's god like power.

Imagine if my regulator rebuilding business had god like standing, or the hot dog cart on the corner.

It paints quite a picture.

yep-:toady:-yep






Bunkloco

[dannno]

I've heard this a few times before from socialists...

Sounds like they were pretty perceptive socialists.

OP has a point that Wall St. saps a lot of wealth out of our country as they currently operate.





What does anyone produce? Relatively few jobs produce physical goods. Wall Street coordinates production, capital, and resources. Without Wall Street or something similar, the market could not function effectively.

Wall St. uses debt to coordinate production, capital and resources based on back-room deals and corruption, they profit, we lose.

[Anti Federalist]

They provide liquidity.

That.

Ask any broker, fund manager, banker, runner, they will all say the same thing, "what product do you actually provide in the end?" "Liquidity."

Then again, so does the liquor store that cashes any check you walk in the door with, for a nominal 10% fee.

So, since that's what the economy is devolving into: shady characters drifting into the liquor store or "payday loans" loans place looking to cash semi hot checks, I guess we shouldn't begrudge the banksters and the brokers their increasingly burdensome fees, right?

:rolleyes:

[Cutlerzzz]

Sounds like they were pretty perceptive socialists.

OP has a point that Wall St. saps a lot of wealth out of our country as they currently operate.





Wall St. uses debt to coordinate production, capital and resources based on back-room deals and corruption, they profit, we lose.Debt is perfectly acceptable, and the market could not function any where near as well without it. Wall Street uses far more than just debt as well.

[Anti Federalist]

Claiming that service sector jobs have no use? Really? The claim that we were wealthier in the 50s when the trend towards service sector jobs over manufacturing jobs started is not even worth addressing.

Then everything is just peachy and we should just stay the course, right?

I mean, that's what I hear all the time, when some of us get shouted down that NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT and all the rest of the globalist trade agreements, the lack of tariffs, the loss of real manufacturing (no, I'm not talking about government fudged numbers that are as fake as the unemployment numbers that claim repacking Chinese sneakers and "building" Big Macs is "manufacturing") the loss of economic and political sovereignty and all the rest is "not as bad as you're making out" and "people are much better off now than they were 30 or 40 or 50 years ago".

O' Rly?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4151/4996579304_c55e44a69e.jpg

And that includes the huge societal shift of women entering the workforce.

So, basically, just to stay afloat, two people have to work where 42 years ago, only one, like my dad, would have to.

[jmdrake]

Debt is perfectly acceptable, and the market could not function any where near as well without it. Wall Street uses far more than just debt as well.

Voluntary debt is acceptable. But debt being heaped on my children and grand children to pay of Wall Street's gambling binge (excuse me "derivatives market") is not acceptable. The problem ain't Wall Street per se. It's government propping up of Wall Street based on the "too big to fail" lie.

[Cutlerzzz]

Then everything is just peachy and we should just stay the course, right?

I mean, that's what I hear all the time, when some of us get shouted down that NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT and all the rest of the globalist trade agreements, the lack of tariffs, the loss of real manufacturing (no, I'm not talking about government fudged numbers that are as fake as the unemployment numbers that claim repacking Chinese sneakers and "building" Big Macs is "manufacturing") the loss of economic and political sovereignty and all the rest is "not as bad as you're making out" and "people are much better off now than they were 30 or 40 or 50 years ago".

O' Rly?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4151/4996579304_c55e44a69e.jpg

And that includes the huge societal shift of women entering the workforce.

So, basically, just to stay afloat, two people have to work where 42 years ago, only one, like my dad, would have to.You've been told time and time again that that figure does not include total compensation. This is not up for discussion.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_b6CLevEGCD0/SA_VkTrDzqI/AAAAAAAAAb8/YOOFHgwLTUM/s400/realwages.bmp

http://pragcap.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/comp.png

Wages are at all time highs. Willful ignorance at its finest.

[Cutlerzzz]

Voluntary debt is acceptable. But debt being heaped on my children and grand children to pay of Wall Street's gambling binge (excuse me "derivatives market") is not acceptable. The problem ain't Wall Street per se. It's government propping up of Wall Street based on the "too big to fail" lie.Yes, Wall Street had problems caused by government. That does not, however, mean that all service sector jobs have no use.

[jkr]

call me crazy, but i think they are simply an obsolete, protected, mechanism currently "manned" but soon to be De-materialized by software-like MANY jobs will soon be; SORRY CHARLIE!

there appears to me a series of "jobs" being occupied by "persons" that really are a facade.
just the natural course of automation.

speaking of hell, robots are taking over the soldiers job now-isn't that NOT nice?

you aint seen NOTHING yet.

[Anti Federalist]

Wages are at all time highs. Willful ignorance at its finest.

So, why change anything then?

Everybody's got big cars, big bank accounts, and big homes.

WTF is the problem?

[Cutlerzzz]

The amount of government debt, the regulations, the tax policy, and the monetary policy make up most of it.

[Anti Federalist]

You're showing two charts that indicate productivity and hourly compensation.

Not average household income, that has remained relatively stagnant.

Possibly because real unemployment is hovering around 16-18 percent.


You've been told time and time again that that figure does not include total compensation. This is not up for discussion.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_b6CLevEGCD0/SA_VkTrDzqI/AAAAAAAAAb8/YOOFHgwLTUM/s400/realwages.bmp

http://pragcap.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/comp.png

Wages are at all time highs. Willful ignorance at its finest.

[Diurdi]

So, why change anything then?

Everybody's got big cars, big bank accounts, and big homes.

WTF is the problem? Because Real compensation is not what ends up in your pocket. It's a broad term that shows more what the average American costs to the employer than what the employee gets himself.

Imagine government forces corporations to buy some uselses service for their employees that costs $500/month. This would probably force the employer to lower the workers wage by $500. Real compensation would stay the same while Real income would diminish.

Abolish all the regulation that decides for the worker what his salary should consist of, and the worker would actually have much closer to that in cash as dollars.

[Cutlerzzz]

You're showing two charts that indicate productivity and hourly compensation.

Not average household income, that has remained relatively stagnant.

Possibly because real unemployment is hovering around 16-18 percent.Yes, unemployment is at 16-18%. That has nothing to do with real wage trends over the past 50 years.

[Tarzan]

The OPs question is beyond my conception!!! :eek:

It's like asking what the casinos in Vegas produce. ;)


At one point stocks were a means by which you could actually participate in the health and growth of a company... an actual investment protected by part ownership of the company through your stocks. That time has LONG since passed. Stocks are now just another commodity with no actual value other than what you can obtain for their exchange from a another buyer. Wall Street is nothing more than the bookie... they take a piece of the action (whether you win or lose). So, its just like Vegas... but, sorry, no topless dancers in the lounge.

[Anti Federalist]

Yes, unemployment is at 16-18%. That has nothing to do with real wage trends over the past 50 years.

No, as I've already noted wage trends since 1967 (44 years anyway) have remained relatively stagnant.

Compensation per hour and productivity may have increased, but if that includes 15-20 percent unemployed, it will drive the aggregate down.

[Anti Federalist]

Because Real compensation is not what ends up in your pocket. It's a broad term that shows more what the average American costs to the employer than what the employee gets himself.

Imagine government forces corporations to buy some uselses service for their employees that costs $500/month. This would probably force the employer to lower the workers wage by $500. Real compensation would stay the same while Real income would diminish.

Abolish all the regulation that decides for the worker what his salary should consist of, and the worker would actually have much closer to that in cash as dollars.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Cutlerzzz]

No, as I've already noted wage trends since 1967 (44 years anyway) have remained relatively stagnant.

Compensation per hour and productivity may have increased, but if that includes 15-20 percent unemployed, it will drive the aggregate down.Unemployment was within the historical average and fairly stable from 83-07. Unemployment increasing is not a component to real wage statistics.

[anaconda]

Imagine government forces corporations to buy some uselses service for their employees that costs $500/month. This would probably force the employer to lower the workers wage by $500.



But the employer cannot reduce the real wage. This is competitively determined. The employer can choose to employ fewer units of labor.

[DamianTV]

What? The idea used to be that it was a mechanism for individual people to invest in companies that they believed were successful and that would return a profit to them. The companies used that money to grow their businesses.

Why do you have a problem with that?

Here's why.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wK1MOMKZ8BI

[Anti Federalist]

Unemployment was within the historical average and fairly stable from 83-07. Unemployment increasing is not a component to real wage statistics.

Lew Rockwell says on 7 Oct. 2011:


Buried in the report is another fact that has much more profound significance. It concerns median household income in real terms.

What the data have revealed is devastating. Since 1999, median household income has fallen 7.1%. Since 1989, median family income is largely flat. And since 1973 and the end of the gold standard, it has hardly risen at all. The great wealth-generating machine that was once America is failing.

No longer can one generation expect to live a better life than the previous one. The fascist economic model has killed what was once called the American Dream. And the truth is, of course, even worse than the statistic reveals.

You have to consider how many incomes exist within a single household to make up the total income.

After World War II, the single-income family became the norm. Then the money was destroyed, and American savings were wiped out, and the capital base of the economy was devastated.

http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/how-fascism-kills-the-american-dream/

[Cutlerzzz]

Lew Rockwell says on 7 Oct. 2011:Again, he is looking at the same irrelevant stat as you are. Total income does not measure real wages, as it does not look at total compensation.

[Anti Federalist]

Again, he is looking at the same irrelevant stat as you are. Total income does not measure real wages, as it does not look at total compensation.

"Total compensation" does not pay the mortgage.

[LopTarDaBoo]

Fraud, collusion, land title record destruction, forged notarizations, crony bailouts, price discovery destruction through special HFT arrangements with exchanges, four letter welfare programs for the financial elite. Business is booming and expected to hit an all time high this year.

[anaconda]

Here's why.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wK1MOMKZ8BI

Bailouts and government-induced malinvestment are the problems, not deregulation. Seems more like an Elizabeth Warren promotional video.

[angelatc]

I asked in another thread,,
With so many opposing the protests and defending the banks and corporations, I have to ask..
What does Wall Street Produce. What crops are grown there? What products are manufactured? Do they have storage for the commodities or shipping them to market?

Or do they just take profits? Buy and sell and trade for profit without producing anything.

What does Wall Street Produce that is of any benefit?

Oh please. Don't tell me you're going all liberal on us now. By matchingup buyers with sellers, they provide the opportunity for anybody, anywhere, to become a partial owner of any company that chooses to go public.

In other words, they produce capital.

[pcosmar]

In other words, they produce capital.

I thought savings and hard resources (money on hand) were capital.

And no, i am not going "liberal" I was attempting to go logical.

[angelatc]

I thought savings and hard resources (money on hand) were capital.

Current Assets - Current Liabilities = Working Capital. Buy a share of stock from a company, their assets (cash) goes up. Super simplified, because they're under no obligation to buy it back, their liabilities don't increase. Hence, they now have more money - capital - to invest in their business.

Wall Street - finds companies that wants to sell stock, and hooks them up with buyers that want to own it.

(And those bastards charge commissions for that service? The government should obviously limit how much money they can make, because obviously they don't deserve that much money.)

[pcosmar]

.

Wall Street - finds companies that wants to sell stock, and hooks them up with buyers that want to own it.

(And those bastards charge commissions for that service? The government should obviously limit how much money they can make, because obviously they don't deserve that much money.)

Some do that, and that would fall under the category of an actual service. (when done honesty)

However that is not all of Wall Street.Other companies buy and sell commodities. often the same items over and over again and artificially drive up prices. (each transaction takes a cut) This provides little service to any but the brokerage house.
The Banks (Federal Reserve Banks) are also located there. It is Ground zero of the connection between Political graft and monetary manipulation.
Though they may provide some services, they produce nothing.

[wd4freedom]

Wall street provides the motive force, energy and resources to perpetuate the Keynesian economic model of Bank led prosperity and master human planning.

[Travlyr]

High-Frequency Trading has changed Wall Street

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/subjects/h/high_frequency_algorithmic_trading/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier


For years, high-frequency trading firms have operated in the shadows, often far from Wall Street, trading stocks at warp speed and reaping billions while criticism rose that they were damaging markets and hurting ordinary investors. Now they are stepping into the light to buff their image with regulators, the public and other investors.


Trading mostly with their owners’ money, they scoop up hundreds or thousands of shares in one transaction, only to offload them less than a second later before buying more. They can move millions of shares around in minutes, earning a tenth of a penny off each share.

[muh_roads]

What? The idea used to be that it was a mechanism for individual people to invest in companies that they believed were successful and that would return a profit to them. The companies used that money to grow their businesses.

Why do you have a problem with that?

Companies can do this privately without being publicly traded or needing a wall street.

It feels less like a mechanism for growing business and more like a game of moving invisible paper or digital 0's & 1's around to fleece & fool the serfs when done publicly on wall street.

Wall Street seems unnecessary since the advent of the internet. If you want to purchase stock in a private company, you could do so easily in today's world.

EDIT: Watching the bid & ask guys work their "magic" on pink OTC's is interesting. Feels like a game they control entirely. Accepting your desire to sell only when they want to accept it. Working you lower and lower until you fold.

[eworthington]

Some do that, and that would fall under the category of an actual service. (when done honesty)

However that is not all of Wall Street.Other companies buy and sell commodities. often the same items over and over again and artificially drive up prices. (each transaction takes a cut) This provides little service to any but the brokerage house.
The Banks (Federal Reserve Banks) are also located there. It is Ground zero of the connection between Political graft and monetary manipulation.
Though they may provide some services, they produce nothing.

You're one-hundred percent correct. The large banks on Wall Street are the owners of the Federal Reserve system. They keep the system going, and they are the one's who determine the policies the Fed is going to take. They also provide a revolving door for the idiots that run the Treasury Department.

As other posters said, in a free society, Wall Street would probably be extinct; the productive portions of it would probably be done on the Internet, or in cheaper locations.

[pcosmar]

You're one-hundred percent correct.

100% ?
If I was 75% correct it would be reason for concern. but nobody listens to me anyway.

The original question came from other questions about "why Wall Street" as a location for the protest.

seemed like a logical "nother question" to ask.

lots of confusion about this. on both sides of the spectrum.

[angelatc]

Some do that, and that would fall under the category of an actual service. (when done honesty)

However that is not all of Wall Street.Other companies buy and sell commodities. often the same items over and over again and artificially drive up prices. (each transaction takes a cut) This provides little service to any but the brokerage house.
The Banks (Federal Reserve Banks) are also located there. It is Ground zero of the connection between Political graft and monetary manipulation.
Though they may provide some services, they produce nothing.

Buying and selling the same commodities over and over again....artificially driving up prices? Really? Wow, you know a lot about this. How do they choose which customer gets left holding the bag, exactly?

Maybe they don't produce anything of value to you, but that certainly doesn't mean they don't produce anything of value.

AFAIK, there is only 1 bank HQ'd on Wall Street.

[angelatc]

Companies can do this privately without being publicly traded or needing a wall street.

That's not true, grasshopper. (Perhaps it *should* be true, but that's a given around these parts.)


If you want to purchase stock in a private company, you could do so easily in today's world. Sure, and since time is in such a surplus these days, you can easily do due diligence on all the companies you're interested in. No reason to hire an expert to keep track of such things.

And if you own a business, and you want to go public, all you have to do is put an ad on Craigslist, promising that you're an honest guy who will certainly spend the investors' money wisely. There's absolutely no need to hire salespeople to pitch your firm, or even help you value your company properly. People looking to buy in would *never* offer you a bad deal. And even if they did, it's so easy to run a business you have tons of time available to put your own deal together anyway.

[Becker]

I asked in another thread,,
With so many opposing the protests and defending the banks and corporations, I have to ask..
What does Wall Street Produce. What crops are grown there? What products are manufactured? Do they have storage for the commodities or shipping them to market?

Or do they just take profits? Buy and sell and trade for profit without producing anything.

What does Wall Street Produce that is of any benefit?

pension plans and other financial products that are of value only legally and on their market.

[pcosmar]

pension plans and other financial products that are of value only legally and on their market.

What is an Enron Pension plan worth these days?

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/00/100900.asp#axzz1aL0dtVeo

when TSHTF all bets are off.

[eworthington]

What is an Enron Pension plan worth these days?

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/00/100900.asp#axzz1aL0dtVeo

when TSHTF all bets are off.

The whole pension-401k system is a way to keep people under the control of Bankers and Politicians. If we were a free republic, people would have charities, save at smaller institutions, mutuals, and many would have large families they could depend on. They just hold our pensions (if we have them) and our 401k's against: if we don't fall in line, they can destroy our retirement.

A pension isn't worth anything if it is managed by corrupt politicians and fraudulent bankers.

[pcosmar]

I think, to my observations,, the "casino" reference is about right.

They are supported by the compulsive gamblers The House always wins.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/06/30/ratigan-stock-market-obviously-corrupt/

[Revolution9]

So you can't just invest in a company without a middleman?

Say,, an Oil Refiner could not just buy Crude Oil from the producer without going through a middleman?

Or an Orange Juice bottler could not just buy oranges from a orchard? Without a middleman (or several) taking a cut?

Yes..you can. The trick is finding the contracts. When I used to direct a commodities corporation we had contracts of all kinds from producers around the world pop in the email once they found we could broker their goods. If someone could get a central databank of these contracts as they arise and allow only certified end users to get the contracts then we would not have pile-one. I have seen a contract for iron ore from Brazil for example go from 67USD/MT and when the Chinese factory workers trying to get it fulfilled pass it back to the buyer their mandate has like 12 bucks a ton added on when two or three is at the acceptable limit. And the they want me to cut my buck so they can sell it cheaper.

Rev9

[Sentient Void]

Angelatc, youre being much too logical and knowledgable about those issue here in this thread, which is full of massive fail.

Hats off to you. I don't know what else I could possibly say apart from my initial response, as well as others', which seems to make it pretty clear that stock brokers on wall street do produce a service of great value.

The relationship is purely goddamned voluntary. Yes, these things could be done without wall street - but very often much less effectively and much less efficiently, but everyone of course has that choice. It seems some in here do not like letting people engage in a voluntary relationship (buyer-broker-seller) where everyone is better off.

WTF is the complaint here? What do you guys propose, exactly? Limiting profits made by brokers who charge agreeable fees/prices? Do you wish to ban it? 'Regulate it'? What?

If none of this - then I don't understand why we're even having this conversation. If you do want these things done - then you are not advocates of free market voluntary exchange.

[Becker]

Angelatc, youre being much too logical and knowledgable about those issue here in this thread, which is full of massive fail.

Hats off to you. I don't know what else I could possibly say apart from my initial response, as well as others', which seems to make it pretty clear that stock brokers on wall street do produce a service of great value.

The relationship is purely goddamned voluntary. Yes, these things could be done without wall street - but very often much less effectively and much less efficiently, but everyone of course has that choice. It seems some in here do not like letting people engage in a voluntary relationship (buyer-broker-seller) where everyone is better off.

WTF is the complaint here? What do you guys propose, exactly? Limiting profits made by brokers who charge agreeable fees/prices? Do you wish to ban it? 'Regulate it'? What?

If none of this - then I don't understand why we're even having this conversation. If you do want these things done - then you are not advocates of free market voluntary exchange.

yeah, they want a capitalism where THEY win, and people they hate lose.

[Sentient Void]

yeah, they want a capitalism where THEY win, and people they hate lose.

'Fair-weather Capitalists'?

Capitalism for them when it's good for them, government for everyone when it's bad for them?

[Becker]

'Fair-weather Capitalists'?

Capitalism for them when it's good for them, government for everyone when it's bad for them?

exactly. that's what the whole complaint about "corporatism isnt capitalism" or "keynesian isn't capitalism" is all about, they're just mad its not THEIR version of capitalism.

[malkusm]

My question to anyone who basically says that Wall Street doesn't provide anything of value is this:

Should someone create a law, regulation, agency, or other deterrent which precludes businesses from offering particular investment services? Particular investment vehicles?

The problem is not the perceived productivity, or lack thereof, of Wall Street investment banks and hedge funds. The problem is that there is a government big enough to lobby and do their bidding.

[Becker]

My question to anyone who basically says that Wall Street doesn't provide anything of value is this:

Should someone create a law, regulation, agency, or other deterrent which precludes businesses from offering particular investment services? Particular investment vehicles?


I am very tempted to say yes on prohibiting certain investment vehicles and instruments, the same way we have a clear anti-gambling law.

But more productive would be to make buyer beware signs clear, and not encourage people to invest their retirement savings or pensions in it.



The problem is not the perceived productivity, or lack thereof, of Wall Street investment banks and hedge funds. The problem is that there is a government big enough to lobby and do their bidding.

why shouldn't they be allowed to hire their helpers?

[pcosmar]

'Fair-weather Capitalists'?

Capitalism for them when it's good for them, government for everyone when it's bad for them?

On that note I would expect that you support the Federal Reserve. After they are just capitalists.
That they have manipulated the Money supply and siphoned off the wealth is just good business.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
And those that got bailouts are just capitalizing on the system in place.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[pcosmar]

WTF is the complaint here? What do you guys propose, exactly? .

Sound Money. A level playing field.
Prosecution of fraud and corruption. Transparency. And a Free Market.

That would greatly limit the Corruption and Collusion between the banks and the "lawmakers".

[Sentient Void]

On that note I would expect that you support the Federal Reserve. After they are just capitalists.
That they have manipulated the Money supply and siphoned off the wealth is just good business.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:
And those that got bailouts are just capitalizing on the system in place.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Huh? How did you draw that conclusion from my statement at all?

The Fed are fair-weather capitalist, cronyist, corporatists. Capitalism when it's good for them, government for everyone when it's not good for them. Your statements have more in common with the Fed than mine - since you're the one advocating regulation or whatever in this area.

[Sentient Void]

Sound Money. A level playing field.
Prosecution of fraud and corruption. Transparency. And a Free Market.

That would greatly limit the Corruption and Collusion between the banks and the "lawmakers".

Of course. I agree. So why are we even having this conversation? The issue is not at all Wall Street in and of itself and your perception that Wall Street 'produces nothing of value'. The issue is with the government intervention in Wall Street, and disgusting cronyism.

I'll ask again:


What do you guys propose, exactly? Limiting profits made by brokers who charge agreeable fees/prices? Do you wish to ban it? 'Regulate it'? What?

If none of this - then I don't understand why we're even having this conversation. If you do want these things done - then you are not advocates of free market voluntary exchange.

[pcosmar]

Huh? How did you draw that conclusion from my statement at all?

The Fed are fair-weather capitalist, cronyist, corporatists. Capitalism when it's good for them, government for everyone when it's not good for them. Your statements have more in common with the Fed than mine - since you're the one advocating regulation or whatever in this area.

that was why the rollie eye sarcasm.

I have no opposition to honest trade, or free market.
I just do not believe for a second that Wall Street is anything like a Free Market. It is Crony Capitalism mixed with a shell game.

It is Corporatism. And for all the divisive dissing of the "Hippies" Shakedown Street is Free Market Capitalism. The Black market is closer to a free market.

[Cap'n Crunk]

100 percent agree. I am embarassed that this conversation is being taking place here. *response to Sensisnt Void

[pcosmar]

Of course. I agree. So why are we even having this conversation?
Answered in post #65



The original question came from other questions about "why Wall Street" as a location for the protest.

seemed like a logical "nother question" to ask.

lots of confusion about this. on both sides of the spectrum.

[donnay]

Wall Street is nothing but a grand illusion. The illusion is to make people think we have free market capitalism. When in all reality we have crony capitalism, which has hijacked our government and uses our government to enforce the theft of wealth to this country. It's a vicious circle.

In a truly free market the people would be the regulators, not government.

Just as the Federal Reserve makes money out of thin air, derivatives and synthetic securities have been used to create imaginary value out of thin air!

If I made a deal to sell someone something of intrinsic value, knowing full good and well, I had nothing of intrinsic value, yet took their money, I would be more than likely hauled off to jail for fraud! Brokers do it everyday and it is okay. :rolleyes:

[jtstellar]

lol.. blatant economic ignorance.. as expected

first of all are you equating all financial services and trading to a lumped phrase 'wall street activity'.. by the same definition, peter schiff is a wall street'er too. he has a branch in new york. what trading does is determine prices by having as many as possible traders compete against each other, so that each speculator only takes a minimal amount of profit in comparison to if there were only a few major players dictating the prices because then price fluctuations will be even more wild. saying a few major banks shouldn't get money from the government to gamble with isn't the same at all to say there should be no trading from people who are willing to put their own money at risk. your post essentially has ONE word to describe the WHOLE collective, big or small. 'the' banks. 'the' corporations. how simpleton is that.

so out of ALL the disagreement you've been getting, the greatest intellectual response you can surmise comes down to this, 'oh, the other side supports the banks and the corporations'. give me a freaking break.. you are exactly the kind of closet liberals on the edge that's been plastering this movement with economic illiteracy since 08 and never bothered to do any research on it.. how many hours did you actually spend on your own economic education? did you even spend a fraction of what i did on some of the economic debate videos by milton friedman, some of peter schiff's econ videos? and those are the most elementary ones.. there are so many others i can't even recall by name because they're scattered everywhere.. why don't you start with couple youtube economic lessons a day and stop spamming


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DJ7wFENHkc

here's one


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfrZnHo3YTk

oh here's another


now where's your 'anti-trading manifesto'? show it. can you even pull one out your sleeves under 5 seconds like i just did? i doubt. if you can't that means you've been lazy. at least spend some time learning economics b4 you start spewing.

edit:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKNUgeaJSeg?t=8m59s

actually here's another one. stossel's answer this part is the only thing worth taking out from this segment but you can scroll front if you want to see this ultra light debate where this soso looking lady thinks she can win the debate with make ups and a soft voice. well it tends to work with laymen.

[Tinnuhana]

Note the date on this one (couldn't think of another place to post this quickly):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umygLe8IEgc&feature=related