Free State Wyoming vs. Free State Project (New Hampshire)

[John F Kennedy III]

I have visited the websites of both and admittedly dont know much about either one. Which do you think would be better to join and why?

[eduardo89]

I vote Wyoming. Smaller state, more of a chance to do good. I wish there was also a Free State project for the Dakotas

[Icymudpuppy]

Having recently been to Wyoming, I can say that I'm afraid that the biggest obstacle is the fact that the land is probably the least productive land in the USA. Homesteading Wyoming is a good way to starve to death slowly, and their economy is dismal. It's sparsely populated for a reason.

[Schiff_FTW]

New Hampshire is a much bigger project in terms of the number of activists involved.

[eduardo89]

Having recently been to Wyoming, I can say that I'm afraid that the biggest obstacle is the fact that the land is probably the least productive land in the USA. Homesteading Wyoming is a good way to starve to death slowly, and their economy is dismal. It's sparsely populated for a reason.

That's why I'd like to see a Free State North Dakota. great place for farming, has oil and a booming economy. Tiny population too.

[dbill27]

The problem with new hampshire is that it's sandwiched between the most socialist states in the country and eventually it will be overrun in my opinion. Not sure what I think about wyoming. North Dakota seems like a better choice if you want to be in the middle of nowhere since it's economy is booming and has one of the lowest unemployment rates.

[Schiff_FTW]

That's why I'd like to see a Free State North Dakota. great place for farming, has oil and a booming economy. Tiny population too.

People complain about New Hampshire being too cold; North Dakota makes it seem like the tropics.

You're right about the tiny population though. I remember reading an article a few years back where some ND town held an election and no one (not even the mayor) showed up to vote.

[eduardo89]

People complain about New Hampshire being too cold; North Dakota makes it seem like the tropics.

You're right about the tiny population though. I remember reading an article a few years back where some ND town held an election and no one (not even the mayor) showed up to vote.

Cold = lots of time to stay indoors and breed more liberty babies ;)

[muzzled dogg]

i picked NH!

[KCIndy]

Huh.

I'll have to admit, I didn't know about Free State Wyoming, and I had thought I was pretty well up on this sort of thing. I know that the Free State Project had, at one time, considered Wyoming as well as Alaska before finally settling on New Hampshire as their target. I was totally unaware of the Free State Wyoming effort.

JFK III, I'm assuming you're talking about:

http://www.freestatewyoming.org/

is that correct?

[John F Kennedy III]

People complain about New Hampshire being too cold; North Dakota makes it seem like the tropics.

You're right about the tiny population though. I remember reading an article a few years back where some ND town held an election and no one (not even the mayor) showed up to vote.

Lol thats awful.

[John F Kennedy III]

That's why I'd like to see a Free State North Dakota. great place for farming, has oil and a booming economy. Tiny population too.

Perhaps we can start a Free State North Dakota :)

[John F Kennedy III]

Cold = lots of time to stay indoors and breed more liberty babies ;)

Thats how we can restore Liberty. Have so many kids that in 18 years we will win everything.

[Southron]

I'm not sure about land prices in NH but WY prices always seemed high for what you were getting.

[John F Kennedy III]

Huh.

I'll have to admit, I didn't know about Free State Wyoming, and I had thought I was pretty well up on this sort of thing. I know that the Free State Project had, at one time, considered Wyoming as well as Alaska before finally settling on New Hampshire as their target. I was totally unaware of the Free State Wyoming effort.

JFK III, I'm assuming you're talking about:

http://www.freestatewyoming.org/

is that correct?

Thats the one.

[John F Kennedy III]

Bump for the night crowd.

[Jingles]

I probably say NH. I'm a Northeasterner though. Why not Montana maybe?

[John F Kennedy III]

I probably say NH. I'm a Northeasterner though. Why not Montana maybe?

Hmmm. What would make Montana a good choice?

[TexMac]

I'm not sure about land prices in NH but WY prices always seemed high for what you were getting.

Half of the land in Wyoming is owned by the state.

ETA: 48% is owned by the feds and 6% by the state of Wyoming.

I used to live in Casper and Sheridan.

[Keith and stuff]

Perhaps we can start a Free State North Dakota :)

There was a vote by the top liberty activists (lol, well, those involved with the FSP) back around 2003 b/t the 10 states that the FSP was seriously considering because there was a possible chance of positive change in those states. NH came in first. ND came in last. Feel free to start such a project but I don't think anyone else will get involved. Besides, while ND is perhaps freer than WY, SD is freer than both of those states and it borders both of them.

[Jandrsn21]

I actually plan to buy an acre in North Dakota here pretty soon. Either for an investment, to move to if times get tough, or for a shtf type scenario. Oil and food will never go out of fashion, and having a stake in that state I think will be good if things get too bumpy here!

[VoluntaryAmerican]

I have visited the websites of both and admittedly dont know much about either one. Which do you think would be better to join and why?

Whichever state you think is better for YOU!

I am a member of FSP (NH) and plan on moving there in a few years.

[XTreat]

Cold = lots of time to stay indoors and breed more liberty babies ;)

Yes!

[Eric21ND]

North Dakota is the way to go.

[1836]

Wyoming = Gov't Owned Land

[John F Kennedy III]

Whichever state you think is better for YOU!

I am a member of FSP (NH) and plan on moving there in a few years.

When i get home today (finally), i am going to look up NH, ND, SD and Montana and see which one i like best. Economy, laws, politics will be major factors.

[eduardo89]

North Dakota has a lot of taxes. South Dakota has almost no state taxes, but doesn't have the oil or coal ND does. Also I believe the largest employer in SD is the federal government. They have a huge air force base there. The tax issue I don't think is so bad, because if we were serous about a FS project in North Dakota, that can easily be changed. Not to mention ND has the means to fund itself without any taxation on it's citizens, they have lots of oil and the second largest coal deposits in the nation, not to mention some of the best land for agriculture

[John F Kennedy III]

North Dakota is sounding really good. And i think it would be great to do a Free State North Dakota. We could take it over if we get enough people. And i think it should be a specific goal to get liberty minded people elected at all levels.

[ronpaulnh2012]

New Hampshire is where it's at. Over 10,000 have pledged to move and almost 1000 have already moved. If you have any serious interest at all, you owe it to yourself to come visit - most people who do, decide to move. Two great times to come visit are the NH Liberty Forum (Feb 23-26, 2012) and Porcupine Freedom Festival aka "Porcfest" (summer 2012)

If you haven't already, check out this page on why Ron Paul supporters should join the Free State Project (http://freestateproject.org/intro/ron_paul), and 101 Reasons to Move to New Hampshire ("http://freestateproject.org/101Reasons).

No disrespect to Wyoming or any other liberty efforts, but I don't think they can hold a candle to what is happening in NH.

[demolama]

Free State Wyoming started out of the decision which made NH the chosen state. Boston T. Party, one of those who prefered WY, started the project.

[John F Kennedy III]

New Hampshire is where it's at. Over 10,000 have pledged to move and almost 1000 have already moved. If you have any serious interest at all, you owe it to yourself to come visit - most people who do, decide to move. Two great times to come visit are the NH Liberty Forum (Feb 23-26, 2012) and Porcupine Freedom Festival aka "Porcfest" (summer 2012)

If you haven't already, check out this page on why Ron Paul supporters should join the Free State Project (http://freestateproject.org/intro/ron_paul), and 101 Reasons to Move to New Hampshire ("http://freestateproject.org/101Reasons).

No disrespect to Wyoming or any other liberty efforts, but I don't think they can hold a candle to what is happening in NH.

After reading your links i have a question. Why is NH considered a loss to Romney? You'd think Dr. Paul would win by a landslide.

[John F Kennedy III]

Free State Wyoming started out of the decision which made NH the chosen state. Boston T. Party, one of those who prefered WY, started the project.

It doesnt appear to be very successful. Id prefer at least ND and NH over wyoming.

[ronpaulnh2012]

After reading your links i have a question. Why is NH considered a loss to Romney? You'd think Dr. Paul would win by a landslide.

I don't consider NH a loss to Romney. In fact, if Ron Paul wants to win the nomination, I think he NEEDS to win the NH Primary.

Romney is from a neighboring state, so he's well known here, has a summer house here, on the other hand Ron Paul is from Texas and has only recently gotten serious about spending time in the state. But, mostly, it's just that Ron Paul faces the same challenges in NH that he faces in every other state.

[John F Kennedy III]

I don't consider NH a loss to Romney. In fact, if Ron Paul wants to win the nomination, I think he NEEDS to win the NH Primary.

Romney is from a neighboring state, so he's well known here, has a summer house here, on the other hand Ron Paul is from Texas and has only recently gotten serious about spending time in the state. But, mostly, it's just that Ron Paul faces the same challenges in NH that he faces in every other state.

I agree Ron needs to win NH. I will be watching this. Im going to lose alot of faith in NH if Ron doesnt win.

[ronpaulnh2012]

I agree Ron needs to win NH. I will be watching this. Im going to lose alot of faith in NH if Ron doesnt win.

Let me be clear: NH is awesome in many ways, but not a utopia that can magically springboard Ron Paul to victory. If he does not do well in NH, it will be a reflection on the failure of the entire campaign. And, on a more positive note, when he does do well in NH, it will be thanks to the campaign as a whole and will translate into success in other states.

[Kelly.]

I have visited the websites of both and admittedly dont know much about either one. Which do you think would be better to join and why?

what are your goals??

without a goal, people are simply giving you a random opinion of their own.

please post your goals, it will help the people who truly want to get you a informed opinion as opposed to their own random opinion.

[studebaker]

If you want to work towards freedom, then NH is where feet are actually hitting the ground working towards liberty compared to the online talking and wishing.

I made the move to NH. Been here over three years along with 1200 other early movers. There are more liberty activist here than any where who are actually doing things. With over 10,000 more signers that pledged to join us. Check out if any other state has these on going liberty infrastructures set up:
Free State Project (http://freestateproject.org) - the bus to get liberty activists together,

NH Liberty Alliance (http://nhliberty.org) - legislation over viewers
NHJury Information (http://nhjury.com/) - Juror education and rights

Apple Seed (appleseedinfo.org/)- American history and marksmanship

Porc 411 (http://nh.porcupine411.com)- rapid messaging system

Copblock (http://www.copblock.org/tag/new-hampshire/)- video accounting of police activities

Sample of NH Liberty media - Free Talk Live Free Talk Live (http://www.freetalklive.com/) , TalleyTV Talley TV (http://talley.tv/) , The Ridley Report Ridley Report (http://ridleyreport.com/) , NH Capital Access NHCap TV (http://nhcaptv.com/)


I will let others continue with links.

[John F Kennedy III]

what are your goals??

without a goal, people are simply giving you a random opinion of their own.

please post your goals, it will help the people who truly want to get you a informed opinion as opposed to their own random opinion.

One is to move to a state with a good economy where i can have a stable full time job. Another is for that state to among the most free and Constitutional. Also i would like a political climate that is ripe for the picking. Where us liberty minded people can gain a foothold and take over. And hopefully from there be able to influence the national scene and direct it back to adhering to the Constitution. No single state can do this but if done correctly it can create a domino effect.

And yes I do plan to run for political office there :)

[Icymudpuppy]

All you NH freestaters... Why isn't Ron doing well there? Is the movement so divided that they can't get behind the only shot at a true liberty candidate?

If they can, why aren't all you so-called liberty activists doing some activism and going out and knocking on doors on Pauls behalf?

If you are, why isn't your activism working?

[John F Kennedy III]

All you NH freestaters... Why isn't Ron doing well there? Is the movement so divided that they can't get behind the only shot at a true liberty candidate?

If they can, why aren't all you so-called liberty activists doing some activism and going out and knocking on doors on Pauls behalf?

If you are, why isn't your activism working?

^ This.

[eduardo89]

What percentage of FSP people in NH are Ron Paul supporters?

[gls]

All you NH freestaters... Why isn't Ron doing well there? Is the movement so divided that they can't get behind the only shot at a true liberty candidate?

If they can, why aren't all you so-called liberty activists doing some activism and going out and knocking on doors on Pauls behalf?

If you are, why isn't your activism working?

Most Free Staters are focused on local and state issues and in that regard they have been extremely successful over the last few years.

As far as the primaries go, the general public in New Hampshire as just as susceptible to the establishment media propaganda as the rest of the country.

[John F Kennedy III]

Most Free Staters are focused on local and state issues and in that regard they have been extremely successful over the last few years.

As far as the primaries go, the general public in New Hampshire as just as susceptible to the establishment media propaganda as the rest of the country.

This worries me. Also, apparently NH is full of liberal douchebags. That also worries me.

[Keith and stuff]

One is to move to a state with a good economy where i can have a stable full time job. Another is for that state to among the most free and Constitutional. Also i would like a political climate that is ripe for the picking. Where us liberty minded people can gain a foothold and take over. And hopefully from there be able to influence the national scene and direct it back to adhering to the Constitution. No single state can do this but if done correctly it can create a domino effect.

And yes I do plan to run for political office there :)

Thankfully for you, NH is already all of the things you are looking for. It has the lowest unemployment in the East (east of the MS River.) It is the only state with low unemployment that doesn't have a huge mining or in the case of ND, SD and NE, a huge farming community that relies on government welfare. In fact, NH is one of the most independent states in the US from federal handouts along with CT and a few other states where people tend to have a lot of money.

NH is the freest state in the US and it is widely known in the liberty community for this. My guess is 80% of the posters here, for example, when asked, would say NH is the freest state. I guess some people could disagree and suggest that it is the 2nd or 3rd freest state but the stats don't back that up. The stats clearly show NH as the freest state.

NH is easily the most easy to influence towards liberty of all of the states. In NH, state rep, state sen, governor and the executive council are all elected every 2 years. Does any other state even have an executive council? It is a 5 person body that exists solely to limit the power of the governor and expansion of government in NH. There are 400 state reps in NH (one rep per ever 3300 people) and they only make $100 per year. In small towns in NH, people vote on the town budget line by line.

If you want to get elected to office in NH, I can help. I've been involved with dozens of campaigns, most of them in NH. In fact, I've already posted excellent advice on this forum about how to get elected in to high office (state rep) in NH, http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?318022-How-to-become-a-Politician&p=3597863&viewfull=1#post3597863

[Travlyr]

In order to live free, honest sound money is required no matter in what State you live. The Free State Projects must embrace this fundamental concept if they wish to succeed.


Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity. -- Ron Paul

[acptulsa]

I definitely have more faith in New Hampshire than in the state that elected Dick Cheney.

That said, I also have to say that so far as liberty issues are concerned Wyoming lives in a much safer neighborhood. Not many Massholes lurking around.

[John F Kennedy III]

Thankfully for you, NH is already all of the things you are looking for. It has the lowest unemployment in the East (east of the MS River.) It is the only state with low unemployment that doesn't have a huge mining or in the case of ND, SD and NE, a huge farming community that relies on government welfare. In fact, NH is one of the most independent states in the US from federal handouts along with CT and a few other states where people tend to have a lot of money.

NH is the freest state in the US and it is widely known in the liberty community for this. My guess is 80% of the posters here, for example, when asked, would say NH is the freest state. I guess some people could disagree and suggest that it is the 2nd or 3rd freest state but the stats don't back that up. The stats clearly show NH as the freest state.

NH is easily the most easy to influence towards liberty of all of the states. In NH, state rep, state sen, governor and the executive council are all elected every 2 years. Does any other state even have an executive council? It is a 5 person body that exists solely to limit the power of the governor and expansion of government in NH. There are 400 state reps in NH (one rep per ever 3300 people) and they only make $100 per year. In small towns in NH, people vote on the town budget line by line.

If you want to get elected to office in NH, I can help. I've been involved with dozens of campaigns, most of them in NH. In fact, I've already posted excellent advice on this forum about how to get elected in to high office (state rep) in NH, http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?318022-How-to-become-a-Politician&p=3597863&viewfull=1#post3597863

If Ron Paul doesn't win NH I will consider the NH FSP a complete failure. It would show me that they are pretending to be their own country and aren't concerned enough with national politics to realize that if Ron isn't elected all they have done will be torn to shreds.

[Travlyr]

If Ron Paul doesn't win NH I will consider the NH FSP a complete failure. It would show me that they are pretending to be their own country and aren't concerned enough with national politics to realize that if Ron isn't elected all they have done will be torn to shreds.

For sure.

A free State would definitely overwhelmingly vote for Ron Paul given the current candidates for president.

[eduardo89]

If Ron Paul doesn't win NH I will consider the NH FSP a complete failure. It would show me that they are pretending to be their own country and aren't concerned enough with national politics to realize that if Ron isn't elected all they have done will be torn to shreds.

The FSP is only 1000 people out of a state population of 1.2 million!

[Eric21ND]

Ron Paul has a good following up here. He got around 25% of the vote last time and won 5 delegates...the most from any one state.

[TonySutton]

Here is another:

https://www.facebook.com/southeastlibertyproject

[gls]

If Ron Paul doesn't win NH I will consider the NH FSP a complete failure.

I'm sure the activists there will be heartbroken lol

[John F Kennedy III]

The FSP is only 1000 people out of a state population of 1.2 million!

One of the reasons I said that is the following quote:


Most Free Staters are focused on local and state issues and in that regard they have been extremely successful over the last few years.

As far as the primaries go, the general public in New Hampshire as just as susceptible to the establishment media propaganda as the rest of the country.

And if you really have a problem with me saying the NH FSP is a failure just replace it with "NH is a failure". Since if the supposedly most free state doesn't vote for Ron then all of what I said holds true.

[John F Kennedy III]

Here is another:

https://www.facebook.com/southeastlibertyproject

Nice.

[John F Kennedy III]

I'm sure the activists there will be heartbroken lol

Lol. Of course they won't be. But it will prove they are not taking this in the correct direction.

[Jeremy]

Ron Paul has a good following up here. He got around 25% of the vote last time and won 5 delegates...the most from any one state.He did not get 25% of the vote, but he still has a lot of supporters.

[ronpaulnh2012]

The FSP is only 1000 people out of a state population of 1.2 million!

This. New Hampshire is the most liberty-friendly state in the country. The Free State Project is one of the most powerful libertarian concepts of our time. Yet, contrary to the assertion that we're pretending to be our own country, we fully realize that we don't exist in a vacuum, and in fact have very little leverage to change things on a federal level.


If Ron Paul doesn't win NH I will consider the NH FSP a complete failure. It would show me that they are pretending to be their own country and aren't concerned enough with national politics to realize that if Ron isn't elected all they have done will be torn to shreds.

High expectations, considering Ron Paul is still barely breaking into the double digits anywhere, despite huge efforts from committed supporters. Again, New Hampshire is awesome but we have no special immunity to the mainstream media bias, special interest groups, and PACs raising hundreds of millions for other candidates, which are all focusing their money on beating Ron Paul in NH (versus the Ron Paul campaign which says it can't even afford to put up signs in NH...)

[BamaAla]

If Ron Paul doesn't win NH I will consider the NH FSP a complete failure. It would show me that they are pretending to be their own country and aren't concerned enough with national politics to realize that if Ron isn't elected all they have done will be torn to shreds.

There are only about 1200 "early movers." They are not going to sway a statewide election...yet. They have been really successful on a micro level which seems to be more of their goal.

As of now, I have not pledged to move because I have too good of a job here to consider relocation, but with circumstances as they are right now, I may be joining them before too long.

[studebaker]

Based on that one issue it appears that all states have failed not only NH. I know of no FSP supporter who would claim NH is a "Free" state just one of the "freest" that's why we come here. I for one stopped complaining in CT and came to help set the corner stone in NH to make it freer yet for those who wish to move later.



One of the reasons I said that is the following quote:



And if you really have a problem with me saying the NH FSP is a failure just replace it with "NH is a failure". Since if the supposedly most free state doesn't vote for Ron then all of what I said holds true.

[Keith and stuff]

If Ron Paul doesn't win NH I will consider the NH FSP a complete failure. It would show me that they are pretending to be their own country and aren't concerned enough with national politics to realize that if Ron isn't elected all they have done will be torn to shreds.

The FSP is about politics, it is just a bus to get liberty activists to move to NH. Liberty politics isn't about Ron Paul. We are not pretending to our own country.

I am somewhat concerned with national politics but in my opinion local politics is far more important. The vast majority of the laws the control my life are local laws. Almost all of the government enforces in NH are local, not national. I spend maybe 10 hours a week doing national liberty activism and 40 doing local liberty activism. Your opinion may vary.

[John F Kennedy III]

If you dont fix national politics it will invade your local politics. We are damn near a dictatorship. We are slip sliding into a totalitarian police state. If Ron isnt elected, odds are by 2016 your states rights wont mean shit.

[Keith and stuff]

If you dont fix national politics it will invade your local politics. We are damn near a dictatorship. We are slip sliding into a totalitarian police state. If Ron isnt elected, odds are by 2016 your states rights wont mean shit.

Personally, I don't think it is know if it is even possible to fix national politics. I think the US has been a totalitarian police state for many years. It continues to get noticeably worse every single year. This has been true for at least the last several decades.

As for local liberty, it has clearly been shown that it is possible to increase liberty in NH (though, this hasn't been shown anywhere else in the US, yet.)

I totally understand that there is only so much you can role back local government. If local government was 1/4 as large as it currently is in NH, perhaps there would be a stopping point for sometime. At that point, the easiest way to increase liberty would be to reduce federal influence. Thankfully, the federal government already doesn't give a dime to NH. In fact, NH is partially funding the federal government so we already have that on our side. We just need a popular governor to stand up to the federal government.

If I thought it was possible to bring about much greater freedom by spending 50 hours a week doing national liberty activism I wouldn't have joined the FSP and moved to NH where I know for a fact that I can make a positive different and actually influence policy. My believe is that even if Ron Paul or Gary Johnson got elected, they couldn't do as much to free the folks of NH as a libertarian governor could. Additionally, as soon as Ron Paul is no longer president, the federal government will continue to rapidly grow. Electing Ron Paul is a 4-8 year stop gap. It isn't a plan to greatly increase liberty over the long term. I have to consider the future of humanity, not just the next 8 years.

[Sovereign Curtis]

To your original question: New Hampshire, hands down.

But if you think you could come here and dictate what others should be doing based upon your own beliefs, you're going to get a chilly reception...

[raystone]

Someone mentioned Montana...there's been some recent Safe Haven moves to Montana by libertarian leadership...

http://alt-market.com/safehaven/235-getting-off-the-globalist-chess-board-safe-haven-relocation

From the blog....I (Stewart Rhodes) was also in the Free State Project but likewise opted out of the East Coast states and moved to Montana in 2005. And now Alt-Market’s Brandon Smith is moving to Montana. In the past year Pastor Chuck Baldwin, the 2008 Constitution Party presidential candidate, along with his son Timothy Baldwin and their families, have moved to Montana, with the same goals in mind. In response to Pastor Baldwin’s effective championing of Montana, many others have followed him by moving there. Most recently, influential survivalist author James Wesley, Rawles has promoted the concept of the Northern Rocky Mountain U.S. (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, eastern Oregon, and eastern Washington) as being the “American Redoubt” – a refuge in time of coming trouble, and likewise has renewed interest in relocation to that region.

[John F Kennedy III]

To your original question: New Hampshire, hands down.

But if you think you could come here and dictate what others should be doing based upon your own beliefs, you're going to get a chilly reception...

Its not about enforcing my beliefs on anyone. Its about spreading the message of liberty and getting people on board. That will lead to winning elections. At which point you can begin to stir the state back toward the Constitution. But you also have to be involved in national politics. For the citizens of what is supposedly the freest state to vote for Romney over the only candidate who cares about them being free it is a complete and utter failure of their system.

[John F Kennedy III]

Someone mentioned Montana...there's been some recent Safe Haven moves to Montana by libertarian leadership...

http://alt-market.com/safehaven/235-getting-off-the-globalist-chess-board-safe-haven-relocation

From the blog....I (Stewart Rhodes) was also in the Free State Project but likewise opted out of the East Coast states and moved to Montana in 2005. And now Alt-Market’s Brandon Smith is moving to Montana. In the past year Pastor Chuck Baldwin, the 2008 Constitution Party presidential candidate, along with his son Timothy Baldwin and their families, have moved to Montana, with the same goals in mind. In response to Pastor Baldwin’s effective championing of Montana, many others have followed him by moving there. Most recently, influential survivalist author James Wesley, Rawles has promoted the concept of the Northern Rocky Mountain U.S. (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, eastern Oregon, and eastern Washington) as being the “American Redoubt” – a refuge in time of coming trouble, and likewise has renewed interest in relocation to that region.

Last night my friend suggested Oregon is the freest state. Im doing a write-up comparing several states, I will post it on here to get your opinions/critiques.

[Shane Harris]

Having recently been to Wyoming, I can say that I'm afraid that the biggest obstacle is the fact that the land is probably the least productive land in the USA. Homesteading Wyoming is a good way to starve to death slowly, and their economy is dismal. It's sparsely populated for a reason.

depends where in Wyoming. Don't we believe in trade and commerce? are these meant to transform states into liberty models or are they isolated communes. Unless it is the latter then what you said doesn't matter. I vote Wyoming because its a gorgeous state and more my ideal. New Hampshire is awesome but is more hippie northeast libertarian than rugged leave me alone cowboy libertarian haha. Wyoming is more wide open and the west side of the state (Jackson Hole, the Grand Tetons, Yellowstone) beats anywhere else in this country for majestic scenery and landscape. IMO

[TonySutton]

Here is the latest freedom index

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011/

[TruckinMike]

Having recently been to Wyoming, I can say that I'm afraid that the biggest obstacle is the fact that the land is probably the least productive land in the USA. Homesteading Wyoming is a good way to starve to death slowly, and their economy is dismal. It's sparsely populated for a reason.


All Ron Paul supporters should get a class A drivers license and free themselves of geographically connected financial chains.:)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drh900/h965/h96589zh2ls.jpg

TMike

[John F Kennedy III]

Personally, I don't think it is known if it is even possible to fix national politics. I think the US has been a totalitarian police state for many years. It continues to get noticeably worse every single year. This has been true for at least the last several decades.

As for local liberty, it has clearly been shown that it is possible to increase liberty in NH (though, this hasn't been shown anywhere else in the US, yet.)

I totally understand that there is only so much you can role back local government. If local government was 1/4 as large as it currently is in NH, perhaps there would be a stopping point for sometime. At that point, the easiest way to increase liberty would be to reduce federal influence. Thankfully, the federal government already doesn't give a dime to NH. In fact, NH is partially funding the federal government so we already have that on our side. We just need a popular governor to stand up to the federal government.

If I thought it was possible to bring about much greater freedom by spending 50 hours a week doing national liberty activism I wouldn't have joined the FSP and moved to NH where I know for a fact that I can make a positive different and actually influence policy. My believe is that even if Ron Paul or Gary Johnson got elected, they couldn't do as much to free the folks of NH as a libertarian governor could. Additionally, as soon as Ron Paul is no longer president, the federal government will continue to rapidly grow. Electing Ron Paul is a 4-8 year stop gap. It isn't a plan to greatly increase liberty over the long term. I have to consider the future of humanity, not just the next 8 years.

It is possible to fix nation politics. Fixing it in time is the real concern. It has been a totalitarian police state for awhile, but even as bad as it is now, it's nothing compared to what is in the future if we don't stop it. Completely ignoring national politics is the wrong way to go. And Paul getting elected isn't a stop gap provided we actually educate people. I believe he can educate a great deal of the population on his own by how their lives will change under his presidency. And pretending national politics doesn't exist will doom the future of humanity and the liberty of the citizens of your state. You are a state, you are not free from what is coming just because you are supposedly have the most liberty of any state.

[John F Kennedy III]

Here is the latest freedom index

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011/

+ rep

Thank you. I will definitely check this out.

[hazek]

Ron Paul has a good following up here. He got around 25% of the vote last time and won 5 delegates...the most from any one state.

What? :eek: That can't be right, can it?

[John F Kennedy III]

What? :eek: That can't be right, can it?

21.37% (3rd place) and 5 delegates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota_Republican_caucuses,_2008

[klamath]

What? :eek: That can't be right, can it?
21% is the right number. Montana was 25%.

[klamath]

Not impressed with NH at all Any state that can vote overwhelmingly for McCain and Romney is NOT the wonderful free state it is being sold as. RP did better in bible thumping Iowa. ND sounds like the better state to me. I have a good friend that was born in ND worked all his life in CA and then bought his uncles farm in ND. The property value on his farm has gone up. It is scandanavia without the socialism.
RP already gets 21 percent there and the population is way smaller.

[John F Kennedy III]

Here is the latest freedom index

http://mercatus.org/freedom-50-states-2011/

I'm noticing that the states ranked as most free are not ranked at the top for personal freedom. From what I have seen so far NH ranks #11 and SD ranks #34.

Edit: Oregon ranks #1 in personal freedom

[John F Kennedy III]

Not impressed with NH at all Any state that can vote overwhelmingly for McCain and Romney is NOT the wonderful free state it is being sold as. RP did better in bible thumping Iowa. ND sounds like the better state to me. I have a good friend that was born in ND worked all his life in CA and then bought his uncles farm in ND. The property value on his farm has gone up. It is scandanavia without the socialism.
RP already gets 21 percent there and the population is way smaller.

This.

[Keith and stuff]

It is possible to fix nation politics. Fixing it in time is the real concern. It has been a totalitarian police state for awhile, but even as bad as it is now, it's nothing compared to what is in the future if we don't stop it.

That is an interesting theory you have but as far as I can tell, history and all of the facts don't show what you say to be true.

Honestly, my guess is that you are new to serious effective activism. How many Leadership Institute training events have you been to? How many candidates have you campaigned for that got elected? How many bills have you helped pass? Being relatively new to effective political activism doesn't make you a bad person, but if does mean you don't know what you are talking about. Seriously, if you didn't already know that NH was the freest state, there is likely a lot of information you don't know about. Please stick with politics. You can likely be an excellent activist if you keep it up :)


Completely ignoring national politics is the wrong way to go.

I completely agree and I've never met a single political activist in NH than does anything like that. Of course, NH is the most effective place for a national political activist to be outside of the DC area. If someone is really interested in national politics, I recommend they live in one of those (NH or DC / VA suburbs) areas.


And pretending national politics doesn't exist will doom the future of humanity and the liberty of the citizens of your state.

Absolutely agree. That's why people need to work hard to counteract the statist on a national level and within states by influencing state government.



You are a state, you are not free from what is coming just because you are supposedly have the most liberty of any state.

Oh for sure. The idea of the free state isn't that liberty activists moving to NH will instantly save the world. We need lots and lots of well training, experienced liberty activists to gather in one state, and this is only happening in NH. It is going to take 100,000s of hours of hard work to bring about any type of serious protection from the national government IMO. I'll already working hard on this by recruiting other liberty activists to move to NH and helping training liberty activists in NH in connection with the top liberty activist training organizations in the world.

[nbhadja]

New Hampshire is where it's at. Over 10,000 have pledged to move and almost 1000 have already moved. If you have any serious interest at all, you owe it to yourself to come visit - most people who do, decide to move. Two great times to come visit are the NH Liberty Forum (Feb 23-26, 2012) and Porcupine Freedom Festival aka "Porcfest" (summer 2012)

If you haven't already, check out this page on why Ron Paul supporters should join the Free State Project (http://freestateproject.org/intro/ron_paul), and 101 Reasons to Move to New Hampshire ("http://freestateproject.org/101Reasons).

No disrespect to Wyoming or any other liberty efforts, but I don't think they can hold a candle to what is happening in NH.

NH is overrated and was a bad state to pick. RP did poorly there in 2007 while he finished 2nd in Montana (or Wyoming I forgot) in 2007 and they did not even have FSP help. SD, ND, Montana, NM, Wyoming all would have been much better picks.

Had the 1000 people moved to Wyoming, Montana or a state like that it would have been so much better. For one thing Wyoming is the smallest state with 560,000 people while NH has 1.4 million people so in sheer numbers the 10,000 would have had 2.5 times more impact per activist in Wyoming than NH.......plus the average Wyoming is much more open to libertarianism than the average NH citizen, who is more socialist.

Now I understand you all wanted NH because it is more fun to live there than a empty state like ND, which is fine I can't fault you......but don't act like NH was the best state to pick. It was and is nowhere as good of a state to pick for liberty as many other states, many of which are in the Mountain West region.

The goal is to take over ANY state- so it should have been the smallest state. Once you can take over a state and get a liberty candidate as governor, the governor and the other liberty politicians can make huge moves like making a gold standard, threatening to secede or actually doing it etc.

[Southron]

NH is overrated and was a bad state to pick. RP did poorly there in 2007 while he finished 2nd in Montana (or Wyoming I forgot) in 2007 and they did not even have FSP help. SD, ND, Montana, NM, Wyoming all would have been much better picks.

Had the 1000 people moved to Wyoming, Montana or a state like that it would have been so much better. For one thing Wyoming is the smallest state with 560,000 people while NH has 1.4 million people so in sheer numbers the 10,000 would have had 2.5 times more impact per activist in Wyoming than NH.......plus the average Wyoming is much more open to libertarianism than the average NH citizen, who is more socialist.

Now I understand you all wanted NH because it is more fun to live there than a empty state like ND, which is fine I can't fault you......but don't act like NH was the best state to pick. It was and is nowhere as good of a state to pick for liberty as many other states, many of which are in the Mountain West region.

The goal is to take over ANY state- so it should have been the smallest state. Once you can take over a state and get a liberty candidate as governor, the governor and the other liberty politicians can make huge moves like making a gold standard, threatening to secede or actually doing it etc.

But you also run into pushback in rural and low populated areas. They may not take too kindly to political activists moving there to "take over". I think one of the main reasons New Hampshire was picked was because of employment opportunities compared to the Mountain West states. I think most people on these forums are urbanites and I'm sure finding the same paying jobs out west would be almost impossible to do.

Sure unemployment is low but so are wages. There is always a trade off. The truth is that most libertarians value wealth over freedom, just like the rest of the population.

I really like what I have researched on ND and may move there someday if it isn't invaded by then. But I wouldn't have any dreams of taking it over. I just want a place to live away from the hordes of Northeasterners that are invading my home state. I just would want to live as peaceful and quiet a life as possible with people I share moral and religious values with.

I still like New Hampshire if I was going to move for political activism. The group is well-established already and the groundwork is set to encourage people to come. At this point splinter groups probably just leech off potential movers to FSP-NH. IMO, if you are moving for political reasons NH would be the place to go but if you want to get away from the Horde then most western states are preferable.

[John F Kennedy III]

Is there a site that breaks down states based on political affiliation/leanings? Like libertarian/conservative/socialist/etc?

[John F Kennedy III]

That is an interesting theory you have but as far as I can tell, history and all of the facts don't show what you say to be true.

History isn't always current reality and I don't know what facts you are referencing.



Honestly, my guess is that you are new to serious effective activism. How many Leadership Institute training events have you been to? How many candidates have you campaigned for that got elected? How many bills have you helped pass? Being relatively new to effective political activism doesn't make you a bad person, but if does mean you don't know what you are talking about. Seriously, if you didn't already know that NH was the freest state, there is likely a lot of information you don't know about. Please stick with politics. You can likely be an excellent activist if you keep it up :)

1. Yes I'm new to serious political activism.
2. Never been to any LT events
3. One.
4. Zero bills.

There is alot I don't know and I am always open to learning more and I am always open to being wrong. Feel free to educate me :) Also I would love to be an activist, I know I can be excellent at it. However I don't do groupthink, I will only be an activist for what I believe in.



I completely agree and I've never met a single political activist in NH than does anything like that. Of course, NH is the most effective place for a national political activist to be outside of the DC area. If someone is really interested in national politics, I recommend they live in one of those (NH or DC / VA suburbs) areas.

NH is sounding really good. The whole Ron Paul thing really disturbs me though. And I'm hearing there are a ton socialists there. Both of these things seem to be counter productive to the liberty movement and the things that make NH rank #1 in freedom. I have alot to weigh before I decide where I can go that will give me the chance to make a real difference.




Absolutely agree. That's why people need to work hard to counteract the statist on a national level and within states by influencing state government.

Agreed 100%



Oh for sure. The idea of the free state isn't that liberty activists moving to NH will instantly save the world.

I do not intend to come off as saying NH is expected to instantly save the world. I do however feel that our country is on the brink of either saving itself or falling off the cliff into something that will make 1984 (or even Nazi Germany) seem tame.



We need lots and lots of well training, experienced liberty activists to gather in one state, and this is only happening in NH. It is going to take 100,000s of hours of hard work to bring about any type of serious protection from the national government IMO. I'll already working hard on this by recruiting other liberty activists to move to NH and helping training liberty activists in NH in connection with the top liberty activist training organizations in the world.

I agree it will take ALOT of work. I think that a FSP needs alot more than 20,000 people for it to work. We can only take over a state if we have the numbers. Is there anything to show that FSP has been recruiting NH into the liberty movement?

[Keith and stuff]

NH is overrated and was a bad state to pick. RP did poorly there in 2007 while he finished 2nd in Montana (or Wyoming I forgot) in 2007 and they did not even have FSP help. SD, ND, Montana, NM, Wyoming all would have been much better picks.

What Ron Paul did in WY or MT cannot be compared apples to apples with what Ron Paul did in NH. However, if you want to look at an honest comparison, check out this one. In the opinion of this author, NH did better than almost every state for Ron Paul in 2007,
Which is the Most Pro-Ron Paul State? Assessing the Determinants of Paul’s Primary and Caucus Support
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jsorens/rpvotes.pdf

"So we can now answer the question: In which state did Ron Paul’s organization do best? The answer is New Hampshire. New Hampshire was the most pro-Ron Paul state, although Idaho ran a close second. The other states are well behind. At the other end of the spectrum, Paul did really badly in Mississippi. We can only deduce that voters and activists in Mississippi strongly disliked or ignored Dr. Paul’s antiwar, libertarian message. Colorado, Massachusetts, Alabama, Kentucky, Utah, and North Carolina were also pretty poor states for him."

Perhaps you disagree with that. That report was an opinion based off numbers and not above disagreement.

However, I have some numbers for you that you cannot disagree with because they are fact and not opinion.

"On November 5th [2007], the record-setting day when Ron Paul supporters donated $4.3 Million, Ron Paul raised more money per capita in New Hampshire than in any other state"
http://freestateproject.org/intro/ron_paul

It's true. I remember giving in that money bomb and looking at the results.


Had the 1000 people moved to Wyoming, Montana or a state like that it would have been so much better.

Interesting point. I was actually one of the lead people researching and pushing for WY in 2002. However, WY lost because the top liberty activists in the country (or at least those folks that votes in FSP state vote) decided that overall, NH would make a better choice. I moved to NH anyway because it was more free than where I used to live, had better weather (IMO) than where I used to live and had many other people moving there with measurable results (unlike all of the other 49 states.)


Now I understand you all wanted NH because it is more fun to live there than a empty state like ND, which is fine I can't fault you......but don't act like NH was the best state to pick. It was and is nowhere as good of a state to pick for liberty as many other states, many of which are in the Mountain West region.

The voters selected NH for many good reasons. All of the reasons for all of the states is archived on the FSP website. NH won not only because it is more fun to live in, has access to many more jobs and has a larger variety of rural and urban living environments, but also because it has the most accessible government in the US and is the easiest to change.


The goal is to take over ANY state- so it should have been the smallest state.

I can assure you, take over a state and the FSP are not related in anyway. The goal isn't to take over a state. Well, at least that isn't the goal of the FSP or those involved with it.

[helmuth_hubener]

I am a part of the Free State Wyoming. I was one of the first movers. I must agree it has not been a success. It is much, much smaller than the FSP in New Hampshire, and has had few if any political results or successes.

New Hampshire, on the other hand, has elected a whole bunch of libertarians to the state house and appears to be on a good trajectory. I still think Wyoming would have been the better choice, because of lower population and more counties, but what's done is done and I have to think that at this point moving to New Hampshire and joining the liberty activists there would be a better choice for you and anyone sharing your goals.

[BuddyRey]

I'm still waiting for the Republic of Lakotah to take off. Anyone know what the current status of that might be?

[helmuth_hubener]

Being either in or very close to the proposed borders of the Lakota Nation, I can say: not much. But at least they've got a better web site, more frequently updated, than the FSW.

http://www.lakotafreedom.com/

[Eric21ND]

21.37% (3rd place) and 5 delegates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota_Republican_caucuses,_2008
There you go, thank you.

[Eric21ND]

ND only has 600k people so a hardcore group of 1000+ activists could make a big impact.

[BuddyRey]

^ Good point. I think Boston T. Party had a good point when he said that the FSP made a mistake by choosing a highly populated state with pre-existing liberty potential instead of a sparsely-populated state that could be "flipped" far more quickly and drastically.

[FSP-Rebel]

^ Good point. I think Boston T. Party had a good point when he said that the FSP made a mistake by choosing a highly populated state with pre-existing liberty potential instead of a sparsely-populated state that could be "flipped" far more quickly and drastically.
NH won the FSP vote because of the large state assembly and that it was a state that can be traveled rather easily for activism reasons. WY was my 2nd (and very close) choice because I'd had been there before and loved the landscape, while was unsure about New England. From I've seen about WY, not only is the activism minimum but the drive time from one place to another is too much and they also have very deep snow fall in the winter. Also, most of the cities/towns are quite small while surrounded by vast lands/mtns that are owned by Chicago bankers. I envisioned the great land of WY and thought at some point I could get a nice plot of land but I've heard that most of it has been bought up. I've only lived in NH so I'm partial but there are so many liberty activists, both FSP and natives, and that alone drowns out whatever WY has left to offer + many tangible successes. The WY movement has no ad plan nor much else, so that will likely be the end of it. The FSP is alive and well in NH, and two of our very own from here (RPF - invisible and wife) just moved to NH today, just got off the phone with them a couple hours ago.

[John F Kennedy III]

What do ya'll think about Oregon?

It does rank #1 in personal freedom...

[Keith and stuff]

^ Good point. I think Boston T. Party had a good point when he said that the FSP made a mistake by choosing a highly populated state with pre-existing liberty potential instead of a sparsely-populated state that could be "flipped" far more quickly and drastically.

Boston T. Party had a lot of good ideas (and still does.) I'm glad he worked with Joe, Robert, Paul and myself to promote WY before the FSP vote. I'm glad he writes liberty books even if I'm not a big gun person. Let's look at things now though. Boston cannot even recruit someone to update his website. That would just take a couple hours per week and he cannot even find someone to do that much activism.

Even though I supported WY, clearly the majority of liberty activists and almost all of the earlier moves disagreed with me. I've heard of liberty activists moving to AK, WY, MT, ID, NV, SC, TN and NH for more liberty. But when I hear about a move, 9 times out of 10 it is a move to NH.

Also, NH isn't highly populated, not at all.

In WY state reps and state senators are professional legislators. In NH they are citizen legislators. In WY state senators work for 4 year terms. There isn't even an executive council that shares power with the governor in WY. In WY, people don't vote on town budgets line by line like they do in NH.

I get that WY has a lower population than NH but with only 50-100 movers in my estimation it doesn't matter. And when you consider that some of those movers aren't political activists and that some of them aren't even activists at all, what do you have? Maybe 10-30 current political activists that are movers. And with so few movers spread out so far, national political liberty training organizations are going to go to WY to train the activists. In NH we had 3 Leadership Institute trainings this year alone. Two were free 1/2 day events and the Campaign Bootcamp that Young Americans for Liberty helped with in October was a full day training with 2 meals plus snacks for only $20. So the activists likely aren't trained well. 1 well trained political activist is worth several poorly trained political activists when it comes to making positive changes.

Do Leadership Institute, American Majority, Campaign for Liberty or Young Americans for Liberty do training in WY, ND or MT? Most likely either no or only once every few years. Young Americans for Liberty is thinking about doing a training event in NH next year (for the 3rd year in a row) and I'm already planing 2 training events that I want to put on in NH next summer.

[libertybrewcity]

I don't know what any of you do for a living or what your situation is, but I can't see myself moving the middle of nowhere in ND, WY, or MT in the first half of my life. I'd love to buy a piece of land there in the future, but how are you suppose to convince a gf or wife to live on a chunk of land in the boonies?

Unless you decide to farm or ranch or something, how do you even work or live if there is nothing around? Idk. I've been a city kid my whole life so I haven't experienced much else. I'll move up to NH once I get my life in order.

[Nathan Hale]

The FSP had this very debate a looooong time ago back in 2002 and 2003. The NH group is the only serious statewide libertarian movement in this country. They have numerous members in the state house (and one in the state senate), they pack state house testimony sessions. They demonstrate and organization across the state. If you want to be a part of an effective liberty movement, the FSP is it.

[Keith and stuff]

I don't know what any of you do for a living or what your situation is, but I can't see myself moving the middle of nowhere in ND, WY, or MT in the first half of my life. I'd love to buy a piece of land there in the future, but how are you suppose to convince a gf or wife to live on a chunk of land in the boonies?

Unless you decide to farm or ranch or something, how do you even work or live if there is nothing around? Idk. I've been a city kid my whole life so I haven't experienced much else. I'll move up to NH once I get my life in order.

Most people in WY and MT live in urban clusters. There is a lot of empty space in WY but it might be a 1,000 acre ranch (the land tends to be unproductive so the ranches need to be large) with 5 people living on it and then down by the highway there is a town with 2,000 people clusters together. That's a good explanation of how people live in WY. As for convincing spouses to move there, I guess you have to hope they love mountains and horses, otherwise...

As for jobs, there are jobs but they tend to be of the less high tech type and outside of the mining / oil /government jobs, the pay usually isn't very good. In the small towns, which is most of WY other than Casper, Cheyenne, Gillette and Laramie, you may have to take what you can find. Whatever you do in WY or a similar state, be a hard worker because if you get fired a couple of times in a small town you may need to move 50 miles down the road before you find someone that will offer you another job.

[FSP-Rebel]

Most people in WY and MT live in urban clusters. There is a lot of empty space in WY but it might be a 1,000 acre ranch (the land tends to be unproductive so the ranches need to be large) with 5 people living on it and then down by the highway there is a town with 2,000 people clusters together. That's a good explanation of how people live in WY. As for convincing spouses to move there, I guess you have to hope they love mountains and horses, otherwise...

As for jobs, there are jobs but they tend to be of the less high tech type and outside of the mining / oil /government jobs, the pay usually isn't very good. In the small towns, which is most of WY other than Casper, Cheyenne, Gillette and Laramie, you may have to take what you can find. Whatever you do in WY or a similar state, be a hard worker because if you get fired a couple of times in a small town you may need to move 50 miles down the road before you find someone that will offer you another job.
^Got it

[TexMac]

Another really hard-to-live with thing in Wyoming is that you have to go to Denver, CO or Rapid City, SD or Billings MT to fly anywhere. There is not one big airport in the whole state.

There is really excellent trout fishing there, though.

[John F Kennedy III]

Oregon?

[muzzled dogg]

The FSP is alive and well in NH, and two of our very own from here (RPF - invisible and wife) just moved to NH today, just got off the phone with them a couple hours ago.

I forget man, have we met? I just moved up but had been coming up from mass all calendar yr

[John F Kennedy III]

Maybe ill just start a new thread tomorrow. Lol.

[heavenlyboy34]

Thats how we can restore Liberty. Have so many kids that in 18 years we will win everything.lolz
Polygamists for Liberty! ;)

[John F Kennedy III]

lolz
Polygamists for Liberty! ;)

Haha :p

[Keith and stuff]

Another really hard-to-live with thing in Wyoming is that you have to go to Denver, CO or Rapid City, SD or Billings MT to fly anywhere. There is not one big airport in the whole state.

There is really excellent trout fishing there, though.

Great point. I did hear that billionaires fly in and out of Jackson Hole all year long though :)

You also need to go to Denver or Salt Lake City to see any major professional sporting event or even concerts outside of Cheyenne Frontier Days (it is a few day long event with a big rodeo and some national country acts tend to perform.) If you live in MT you are out of luck unless you are a huge Warped Tour fan as the yearly Warped Tour (a one day indie, punk rock, emo, screamo and nu metal music festival) often makes a stop in MT. If you live in ND or SD you have to drive to the twin cities in MN.

There is an international airport (even with Southwest Airlines) in NH. The Boston airport is a 35 minutes drive from NH (best case, with no traffic) and the CT airport (the Springfield, / Hartford, CT airport) is an 80 minute drive from NH. 2 NASCAR weekends happen in NH and Boston sporting events are 35 minutes or so from the NH border if traffic is very low (which it often is at night.) Boston has professional baseball, football, basketball, hockey and soccer. Also, major concerts come to NH and certainly happen all over MA and CT.

What about shopping? NH alone has 4 decent sized malls (and then several of those really small malls) which I would guess is the same amount that WY, MT and ND have combined.

[ronpaulnh2012]

This worries me. Also, apparently NH is full of liberal douchebags. That also worries me.


What do ya'll think about Oregon?

It does rank #1 in personal freedom...

If you are that worried about liberals in NH, then Oregon is probably not a good choice:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/mapesonpolitics/2011/02/gallup_oregon_washington_among.html

I second everything Keith and stuff said, and I'd add that you should really come to NH and check it out in person. It is natural to have doubts but it usually turns out that once someone comes to visit, they want to move here :)

The two best times to come visit are Liberty Forum (http://freestateproject.org/libertyforum) and Porcfest (http://porcfest.com/). (2012 event info will be posted soon on those pages)

[flightlesskiwi]

NH is overrated and was a bad state to pick. RP did poorly there in 2007 while he finished 2nd in Montana (or Wyoming I forgot) in 2007 and they did not even have FSP help. SD, ND, Montana, NM, Wyoming all would have been much better picks.

Had the 1000 people moved to Wyoming, Montana or a state like that it would have been so much better. For one thing Wyoming is the smallest state with 560,000 people while NH has 1.4 million people so in sheer numbers the 10,000 would have had 2.5 times more impact per activist in Wyoming than NH.......plus the average Wyoming is much more open to libertarianism than the average NH citizen, who is more socialist.

Now I understand you all wanted NH because it is more fun to live there than a empty state like ND, which is fine I can't fault you......but don't act like NH was the best state to pick. It was and is nowhere as good of a state to pick for liberty as many other states, many of which are in the Mountain West region.

The goal is to take over ANY state- so it should have been the smallest state. Once you can take over a state and get a liberty candidate as governor, the governor and the other liberty politicians can make huge moves like making a gold standard, threatening to secede or actually doing it etc.

i do have a qualm with one of the states you mention. New Mexico, by far, would NOT have been a better pick than New Hampshire. don't assume that because a state is rural and still has gun-owner "friendly" laws that the residents are liberty-oriented or liberty-friendly. NM is one of the most progressive, nanny-state, corrupt, federally dependent states in the union.

[Eric21ND]

Great point. I did hear that billionaires fly in and out of Jackson Hole all year long though :)

You also need to go to Denver or Salt Lake City to see any major professional sporting event or even concerts outside of Cheyenne Frontier Days (it is a few day long event with a big rodeo and some national country acts tend to perform.) If you live in MT you are out of luck unless you are a huge Warped Tour fan as the yearly Warped Tour (a one day indie, punk rock, emo, screamo and nu metal music festival) often makes a stop in MT. If you live in ND or SD you have to drive to the twin cities in MN.

There is an international airport (even with Southwest Airlines) in NH. The Boston airport is a 35 minutes drive from NH (best case, with no traffic) and the CT airport (the Springfield, / Hartford, CT airport) is an 80 minute drive from NH. 2 NASCAR weekends happen in NH and Boston sporting events are 35 minutes or so from the NH border if traffic is very low (which it often is at night.) Boston has professional baseball, football, basketball, hockey and soccer. Also, major concerts come to NH and certainly happen all over MA and CT.

What about shopping? NH alone has 4 decent sized malls (and then several of those really small malls) which I would guess is the same amount that WY, MT and ND have combined.
Bringing up the Yankees and Red Sox will not help your case for moving to the north east....god I hate those teams. :(

[Keith and stuff]

Bringing up the Yankees and Red Sox will not help your case for moving to the north east....god I hate those teams. :(

I didn't try to bring them up. While I do attend big liberty events in MA (which are common) and rarely concerts, I am not a big sports fan. Although, last I knew, I'm pretty sure that the two most popular baseball teams in the US are the Yankees and Red Sox.

As you know, there are no major sporting events in MT, ND, SD or ID and there is only one in WY if you count the rodeo. It doesn't matter to me but that does matter to the majority of middle class and wealthy Americans so I thought I'd bring it up in the WY vs. NH debate because it really is an issue to some people.

[klamath]

The best way to get libertarian freedon IF that is what you really want is to have space. If your neighbor is right next door I don't care how libertarian you think your neighborhood is your freedon is going to conflict with someone. Long live the wide open places.

[studebaker]

Ron Paul and the Free State Project (http://freestateproject.org/intro/ron_paul).....

[helmuth_hubener]

The WY movement has no ad plan nor much else, so that will likely be the end of it. Bingo, that hits the situation right on the head. I've told them that, but the rest of the members seem content with the situation as it is. Obviously there will be no large influx of libertarians into the state because of the FSW. So, yes, the FSW is a small club for some libertarian and libertarianish and even conservative people in or interested in Wyoming. As a "movement" like envisioned in Boston's book Molon Labe, it's dead.


I'm glad he writes liberty books even if I'm not a big gun person. Actually, now he doesn't. He has stated that he's done writing any more "Boston T. Party" books, that is, those with a libertarian theme. Future books will be "Ken Royce" books for a general audience not "liberty books", such as his upcoming book about how to be a manly man.


And when you consider that some of those movers aren't political activists and that some of them aren't even activists at all, what do you have? Maybe 10-30 current political activists that are movers. Some? The truth is: basically none are! Your guess of 10-30 is ten times too large; 1-3 is about right.

Do Leadership Institute, American Majority, Campaign for Liberty or Young Americans for Liberty do training in WY, ND or MT? No.


As for jobs, there are jobs but they tend to be of the less high tech type and outside of the mining / oil /government jobs, the pay usually isn't very good. That part about pay is untrue. The mining and oil jobs pay very well and can pay very, very well. High school dropouts and felons making $60,000 and up is not uncommon. I met a third-grade dropout roustabout on a tank project who made some $4,000 per week ($200,000 a year) or some remarkably high amount like that. Maybe more, I don't remember. It's work, it's hard work, and it gets cold out in the field in the winter, but if you're willing to do it, you will get paid for it. Furthermore, especially in the energy boom times, energy wages push all other wages up, too. Fast food places have to bring in foreign exchange workers because no one, even very marginal workers, will work for less than $10/hr. Remember cost of living is very low here, so while $10/hr would not be a lot in Boston or New York, in Casper it is. Right now the boom has largely left Wyoming and moved to the North Dakota oil puddle, but the employment numbers are still good here, too.


As you know, there are no major sporting events in MT, ND, SD or ID and there is only one in WY if you count the rodeo. College sports are major events. As for pro teams, yes, the closest ones are in Denver, or Minneapolis for ND, Salt Lake for ID, at least for football, basketball, and baseball.

[John F Kennedy III]

If you are that worried about liberals in NH, then Oregon is probably not a good choice:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/mapesonpolitics/2011/02/gallup_oregon_washington_among.html

I second everything Keith and stuff said, and I'd add that you should really come to NH and check it out in person. It is natural to have doubts but it usually turns out that once someone comes to visit, they want to move here :)

The two best times to come visit are Liberty Forum (http://freestateproject.org/libertyforum) and Porcfest (http://porcfest.com/). (2012 event info will be posted soon on those pages)

Thank you :)

I am STRONGLY leaning NH. I just want to make sure I choose the right state. I don't want to move and 6 months be later be wishing I went somewhere else.

Edit: NH has 4 electoral votes :( Too bad we can't take over California, it has 55 electoral votes.

[John F Kennedy III]

Bringing up the Yankees and Red Sox will not help your case for moving to the north east....god I hate those teams. :(

Weird thing is (for someone living on the West Coast) the Red Sox have always been my favorite American League team. However my favorite overall team is the San Francisco Giants. So I would be moving from close to my favorite team to close to my 2nd favorite team. Hmmm...

Edit: I hate the Yankees with a passion. And it has nothing to with the Red Sox.

[WilliamShrugged]

I pledge with the FSP to move to NH, but I ended up moving to Idaho. Got a job within a month being here and have met a couple Rp fans running around. I like NH and really thought about the move, but i don't see it as a state that can pull it out in the long run. When you're surrounded by socialist states how do you prevent the locust (for example, California ruining NV)? Lets say because of NH's economic freedom, they have huge job growth. That will attract many from Mass, VT, NY, etc... Liberal and big gov conservative minded looking for work. Thus destroying years of hard work.

At least with ID, you have the Dakotas, Montana, Wyoming, even NV nearby.

[Southron]

I pledge with the FSP to move to NH, but I ended up moving to Idaho. Got a job within a month being here and have met a couple Rp fans running around. I like NH and really thought about the move, but i don't see it as a state that can pull it out in the long run. When you're surrounded by socialist states how do you prevent the locust (for example, California ruining NV)? Lets say because of NH's economic freedom, they have huge job growth. That will attract many from Mass, VT, NY, etc... Liberal and big gov conservative minded looking for work. Thus destroying years of hard work.

At least with ID, you have the Dakotas, Montana, Wyoming, even NV nearby.

Well, I think it comes down to activism vs escapism. Eventually there will be nowhere to run to if we don't fix things. Idaho would be a good place to escape if everything goes to hell.

A semi-permanently free state would have to end Universal suffrage and open migration I believe.

[John F Kennedy III]

That is an interesting theory you have but as far as I can tell, history and all of the facts don't show what you say to be true.

History isn't always current reality and I don't know what facts you are referencing.



Honestly, my guess is that you are new to serious effective activism. How many Leadership Institute training events have you been to? How many candidates have you campaigned for that got elected? How many bills have you helped pass? Being relatively new to effective political activism doesn't make you a bad person, but if does mean you don't know what you are talking about. Seriously, if you didn't already know that NH was the freest state, there is likely a lot of information you don't know about. Please stick with politics. You can likely be an excellent activist if you keep it up :)

1. Yes I'm new to serious political activism.
2. Never been to any LT events
3. One.
4. Zero bills.

There is alot I don't know and I am always open to learning more and I am always open to being wrong. Feel free to educate me :) Also I would love to be an activist, I know I can be excellent at it. However I don't do groupthink, I will only be an activist for what I believe in.



I completely agree and I've never met a single political activist in NH than does anything like that. Of course, NH is the most effective place for a national political activist to be outside of the DC area. If someone is really interested in national politics, I recommend they live in one of those (NH or DC / VA suburbs) areas.

NH is sounding really good. The whole Ron Paul thing really disturbs me though. And I'm hearing there are a ton socialists there. Both of these things seem to be counter productive to the liberty movement and the things that make NH rank #1 in freedom. I have alot to weigh before I decide where I can go that will give me the chance to make a real difference.




Absolutely agree. That's why people need to work hard to counteract the statist on a national level and within states by influencing state government.

Agreed 100%



Oh for sure. The idea of the free state isn't that liberty activists moving to NH will instantly save the world.

I do not intend to come off as saying NH is expected to instantly save the world. I do however feel that our country is on the brink of either saving itself or falling off the cliff into something that will make 1984 (or even Nazi Germany) seem tame.



We need lots and lots of well training, experienced liberty activists to gather in one state, and this is only happening in NH. It is going to take 100,000s of hours of hard work to bring about any type of serious protection from the national government IMO. I'll already working hard on this by recruiting other liberty activists to move to NH and helping training liberty activists in NH in connection with the top liberty activist training organizations in the world.

I agree it will take ALOT of work. I think that a FSP needs alot more than 20,000 people for it to work. We can only take over a state if we have the numbers. Is there anything to show that FSP has been recruiting NH into the liberty movement?

[Keith and stuff]

Some? The truth is: basically none! Your guess of 10-30 is ten times too large; 1-3 is about right.
No.

I know about Michael D. for example. He was a political activist but now seems to be mostly a media activist. He made the Gun and Weed documentary and now does freedomfeens.com, a liberty podcast. Really, if you are correct, that is really sad.


That part about pay is untrue. The mining and oil jobs pay very well and can pay very, very well. High school dropouts and felons making $60,000 and up is not uncommon. I met a third-grade dropout roustabout on a tank project who made some $4,000 per week ($200,000 a year) or some remarkably high amount like that. Maybe more, I don't remember. It's work, it's hard work, and it gets cold out in the field in the winter, but if you're willing to do it, you will get paid for it. Furthermore, especially in the energy boom times, energy wages push all other wages up, too. Fast food places have to bring in foreign exchange workers because no one, even very marginal workers, will work for less than $10/hr. Remember cost of living is very low here, so while $10/hr would not be a lot in Boston or New York, in Casper it is. Right now the boom has largely left Wyoming and moved to the North Dakota oil puddle, but the employment numbers are still good here, too.

I am using stats that just came out in August from the Census, here they are http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/statemedian/index.html
They show average median household income $10k-$16k less per year in WY/ OR / ND when compared to NH. They show the average median household income over $22k less in MT when compared to NH. So yes, compared to the states around WY, pay is high in WY, no doubt. But compared to NH, it is low. And to admit that I'm wrong and concede your point, pay in WY is higher than the national average. I'm guessing that is partly related to the mining and oil jobs in WY.


College sports are major events. As for pro teams, yes, the closest ones are in Denver, or Minneapolis for ND, Salt Lake for ID, at least for football, basketball, and baseball.

I don't blame you for settling for non-major sporting events when major sporting events aren't near-by :) No seriously, unless you are talking about nationally know college bowl games or NCAA Sweet 16 tournaments or better, I'll just have to agree to disagree with you.

[John F Kennedy III]

Feel free to close this thread...


http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/307998_288706934491432_100000563848054_1105663_191 8815004_n.jpg

[Keith and stuff]

Lets say because of NH's economic freedom, they have huge job growth. That will attract many from Mass, VT, NY, etc... Liberal and big gov conservative minded looking for work. Thus destroying years of hard work.

It sounds like you are talking about what happened to NV and to a lesser extent OR, WA and MT by movers leaving CA. It also happened to VT by movers leaving NY. To a lesser extend, you could say it's happened in PA by movers leaving NJ and NY.

It is true that the economy is better in New Hampshire than anywhere else in the Northeast. Likewise, it's true that the quality of life is better in NH than anywhere else in the US. There are liberals and statists moving to NH, it's true. They move to every state. Look at what is happening in Jackson Hole, WY. Check the voting patterns. The same thing is happening in Cheshire County, NH. However, the largest amount of movers to NH move from MA and it has been that way mostly for 100s of years. Just like 150 years ago, those movers tend to move to NH because of the freedom.



At least with ID, you have the Dakotas, Montana, Wyoming, even NV nearby.


Even if your point of liberals in near by states mattered, and I don't think it does, it makes ID look pretty bad. Heck, I can make ID look even worse than NH using your comparison if I have fun with the numbers.

According to self-identified liberals, these are the states with the most liberals that border NH or ID ranked by the highest percentage of self-identified liberals in the US:
1. VT (625,741)
3. MA (6,547,629)
6. OR (3,831,074)
8. WA (6,724,540)
16. ME (1,328,361)

OR total = total population of folks that live in border states with highish percentage of the population that are self identified liberals 10,555,614
NH total = total population of folks that live in border states with highish percentage of the population that are self identified liberals 8,501,731

It looks like a heck of a lot more liberals border ID than NH.

You can do the same thing with Democrats if you want. There are a ton more Democrats in states bordering ID than NH. But I don't consider that the most useful information. Don't believe me? OR leans 47.5% (Democrat) to 35.8% (GOP) Democrat and WA leans 45.3% (Democrat) to 37.6% (GOP)

But let's look at movers. It is well known that more recent movers in NH came from MA than any other state. Likewise, it is well known that more recent movers in ID came from CA than any other state. While MA leans more liberal and more Democrat than CA, there is certainly more liberty in MA than CA. CA is run worse and the economy is much worse in CA than in MA.

BTW, a mover recently came to NH from ID :) Heck, we had a couple that moved from OR several years ago. Now they are both elected state reps. The wife is even in charge of a state house committee. She used to be on the board of directors of one of the two most powerful groups in the NH state house. Now he is helping run the other group that is one of the two most powerful groups in the state house.

[helmuth_hubener]

I know about Michael D. for example. He was a political activist but now seems to be mostly a media activist. He made the Gun and Weed documentary and now does freedomfeens.com, a liberty podcast. Really, if you are correct, that is really sad. Yeah, he's cool. I bought Guns and Weed at the latest FSW Jamboree, and just watched it this week. It's uneven, but I enjoyed a lot of it. And yes, he's become ancap and given up on politics. The two FSW people he interviewed a lot in the movie are also not political activists. The two FSW people most active politically and electorally are probably Don Wills and myself. And that's kind of a sad commentary, because I'm really not that active and don't have a lot of faith in the political system myself! But I did run for State House in 2010. I am the only FSWer I'm aware of who has run for an elected office.

FSWers did contribute money and support to the campaigns for the no-permit-concealed-carry and firearms freedom act, so they could take some credit for those. But it's nothing on the level of what's happening in NH.




I am using stats that just came out in August from the Census, here they are http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/statemedian/index.html
They show average median household income $10k-$16k less per year in WY/ OR / ND when compared to NH. They show the average median household income over $22k less in MT when compared to NH. So yes, compared to the states around WY, pay is high in WY, no doubt. But compared to NH, it is low. And to admit that I'm wrong and concede your point, pay in WY is higher than the national average. I'm guessing that is partly related to the mining and oil jobs in WY. Like I said, remember that cost of living here is lower than average. You can make Mississippi, for example, look really bad just using raw median household income, but the fact is that it's super-super cheap to live in Mississippi, so it's not as poor as it looks. I don't know which has higher incomes adjusted for cost of living, WY or NH, but I would guess that you're right and it's NH, but the cost of living will soften the disparity somewhat.



I don't blame you for settling for non-major sporting events when major sporting events aren't near-by :) No seriously, unless you are talking about nationally know college bowl games or NCAA Sweet 16 tournaments or better, I'll just have to agree to disagree with you.A pro football team could open up in Nebraska and it would never, never, never get the level and support and enthusiasm that University of Nebraska football gets. There are sports fans in my family, and they prefer the college level. Lots of sports fans are bigger into the college game, believe me, even when pro teams are nearby. In places like Tulsa, OK, even high school football is huge. Wyoming towns tend to be big into the high school sports, too, much more than where I'm from. That phenomenon is, I think, more for the reason you say: podunk town, nothing to do, nothing better going on,... hey, let's go to the high school football game!

[ronpaulnh2012]

When you're surrounded by socialist states how do you prevent the locust (for example, California ruining NV)? Lets say because of NH's economic freedom, they have huge job growth. That will attract many from Mass, VT, NY, etc... Liberal and big gov conservative minded looking for work. Thus destroying years of hard work.

That is a great question. It turns out that it doesn't really work like that. Studies have shown that the people who tend to move from Massachusetts to NH are predominantly conservative - even though MA is a liberal state. Basically what happens is we get the people who are fed up with high taxes and liberal politics in MA. And, on the flip side, people who live in NH but are looking for handouts (but not getting much, because NH doesn't roll that way), pack up and move to MA because they have better welfare. In short, being surrounded by more liberal states isn't nearly as bad as you might first think.

[WilliamShrugged]

That is a great question. It turns out that it doesn't really work like that. Studies have shown that the people who tend to move from Massachusetts to NH are predominantly conservative - even though MA is a liberal state. Basically what happens is we get the people who are fed up with high taxes and liberal politics in MA. And, on the flip side, people who live in NH but are looking for handouts (but not getting much, because NH doesn't roll that way), pack up and move to MA because they have better welfare. In short, being surrounded by more liberal states isn't nearly as bad as you might first think.

Well im not here to argue just putting my thoughts on the matter. We'll see what happens down the road. I hope NH works out. So other states can do the same. I also moved to Idaho because i am close to family and still in a area that has a libertarian like mentality (even though boise isn't). NH was a very far drive to a unknown area. I had the money to make the move, but had no idea where to start as well. Idaho, i had friends up here to help me with the move and find a job. I love what NH is doing and have told many people both here in ID and in NV about it. I hope ID can do the same.

[WilliamShrugged]

It sounds like you are talking about what happened to NV and to a lesser extent OR, WA and MT by movers leaving CA. It also happened to VT by movers leaving NY. To a lesser extend, you could say it's happened in PA by movers leaving NJ and NY.

It is true that the economy is better in New Hampshire than anywhere else in the Northeast. Likewise, it's true that the quality of life is better in NH than anywhere else in the US. There are liberals and statists moving to NH, it's true. They move to every state. Look at what is happening in Jackson Hole, WY. Check the voting patterns. The same thing is happening in Cheshire County, NH. However, the largest amount of movers to NH move from MA and it has been that way mostly for 100s of years. Just like 150 years ago, those movers tend to move to NH because of the freedom.



Even if your point of liberals in near by states mattered, and I don't think it does, it makes ID look pretty bad. Heck, I can make ID look even worse than NH using your comparison if I have fun with the numbers.

According to self-identified liberals, these are the states with the most liberals that border NH or ID ranked by the highest percentage of self-identified liberals in the US:
1. VT (625,741)
3. MA (6,547,629)
6. OR (3,831,074)
8. WA (6,724,540)
16. ME (1,328,361)

OR total = total population of folks that live in border states with highish percentage of the population that are self identified liberals 10,555,614
NH total = total population of folks that live in border states with highish percentage of the population that are self identified liberals 8,501,731

It looks like a heck of a lot more liberals border ID than NH.

You can do the same thing with Democrats if you want. There are a ton more Democrats in states bordering ID than NH. But I don't consider that the most useful information. Don't believe me? OR leans 47.5% (Democrat) to 35.8% (GOP) Democrat and WA leans 45.3% (Democrat) to 37.6% (GOP)

But let's look at movers. It is well known that more recent movers in NH came from MA than any other state. Likewise, it is well known that more recent movers in ID came from CA than any other state. While MA leans more liberal and more Democrat than CA, there is certainly more liberty in MA than CA. CA is run worse and the economy is much worse in CA than in MA.

BTW, a mover recently came to NH from ID :) Heck, we had a couple that moved from OR several years ago. Now they are both elected state reps. The wife is even in charge of a state house committee. She used to be on the board of directors of one of the two most powerful groups in the NH state house. Now he is helping run the other group that is one of the two most powerful groups in the state house.

Jeez... I picked ID due to its convenience for me and the fears of what can happen in the future. Its not as if i hate NH or anything. If you end up being right then i will just move to NH then. If not, i hope Idaho can repeat the same.

[Keith and stuff]

Someone on the FSP Forum mentioned CO vs. NH. Part of the talk turned to WY so I decided to reply. I even brought up this thread :)
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=24524.0

I love all of these state vs. state threads. I remember before the FSP voted to select NH, people spent maybe 10,000+ hours comparing states on the FSP Forum and website. That was way back in 2001-2003 but the arguments never get old to me. Although, they are a lot easier to have since now the choice is so obvious.