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View Full Version : Who here is cheering for Los Mata Zetas?




Becker
09-30-2011, 05:23 PM
No government involvement, purely voluntary free market response to "drug cartels".

pcosmar
09-30-2011, 05:27 PM
:confused:

Becker
09-30-2011, 05:31 PM
:confused:

haven't you heard? There's a vigilante group in Mexico rising up to address the drug cartel's violence.

It's unclear whether they are actually anti-drug, or just a rival gang who is jealous and hating of another's wealth, but one thing we are pretty sure of, is they have no government involvement. They seem to be feared by both government and citizens, isn't that the dream of libertarians and ancaps? That people voluntarily donate their time and bullets to restore order, rather than let the government fail at it?

eduardo89
09-30-2011, 05:33 PM
haven't you heard? There's a vigilante group in Mexico rising up to address the drug cartel's violence.

It's unclear whether they are actually anti-drug, or just a rival gang who is jealous and hating of another's wealth, but one thing we are pretty sure of, is they have no government involvement. They seem to be feared by both government and citizens, isn't that the dream of libertarians and ancaps? That people voluntarily donate their time and bullets to restore order, rather than let the government fail at it?

That's what La Familia Michoacana started out as, then they eliminated the competition in the state of Michoacan and became one of the biggest cartels.

Becker
09-30-2011, 05:34 PM
That's what La Familia Michoacana started out as, then they eliminated the competition in the state of Michoacan and became one of the biggest cartels.

so there's a short term good goal and a long term bad byproduct?

eduardo89
09-30-2011, 05:40 PM
so there's a short term good goal and a long term bad byproduct?

I don't really see any short term good done by vigilantes like this. They create more violence on the street and a lot of innocent people get caught in the crossfire. Cartels don't care about killing innocent people, they look for revenge and to send out a message of fear. Just look at the news stories in Mexico of 72 immigrants being found dead in a warehouse, or recently when they lit a casino on fire in Monterrey and 53 people died, most of them women.

dannno
09-30-2011, 05:43 PM
End the war on drugs. That is the free market solution. Period. Everything else is violence.

dannno
09-30-2011, 05:44 PM
The drug cartels have more free market in them than the drug warriors. I don't agree with their violent actions, but I have no problem with them transporting illegal drugs across the border. The violence stems from the state enforcement of drug laws.

Blame it on the state, not the cartels.

pcosmar
09-30-2011, 05:45 PM
When you take out a drug dealer there are 5 dealers waiting to take his place.

When you take out a drug cartel, there are 5 ready to step into their place.

The Drug War breeds Violence.

Becker
09-30-2011, 05:46 PM
The drug cartels have more free market in them than the drug warriors. I don't agree with their violent actions, but I have no problem with them transporting illegal drugs across the border. The violence stems from the state enforcement of drug laws.

Blame it on the state, not the cartels.

are drugs legal in Mexico?

eduardo89
09-30-2011, 05:46 PM
The drug cartels have more free market in them than the drug warriors. I don't agree with their violent actions, but I have no problem with them transporting illegal drugs across the border. The violence stems from the state enforcement of drug laws.

Blame it on the state, not the cartels.

Exactly. And vigilante justice is simply creating more violence which the cartel is more than happy to respond to.

End prohibition and the vioence ends.

eduardo89
09-30-2011, 05:47 PM
are drugs legal in Mexico?

Simple possesion for personal consumption: yes.

Production, selling, transportation, smuggling: no.


The maximum amount of marijuana considered to be for “personal use” under the new law is 5 grams. Other limits are half a gram of cocaine, 50 milligrams of heroin, 40 milligrams for methamphetamine and 0.015 milligrams of LSD.

Becker
09-30-2011, 05:48 PM
Simple possesion for personal consumption: yes.

Production, selling, transportation, smuggling: no.

so everybody can make it for themselves, but not sell it or give it to another person?

pcosmar
09-30-2011, 05:51 PM
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2011/08/us-trained-assassin-teams-now-deployed-drug-war

Among the so-called splinter groups that have come onto the scene, many within the past year, include organizations whose names are not yet in the bright lights of the mainstream media: Mano con ojos, or Hands with Eyes; Mata Zetas, or Zeta Killers; Caballeros Templarios, or Knights Templar; Cartel de Pacifico Sur, or the South Pacific Cartel; Cartel de Jalisco Nueva Generacion; and Cartel del Centro, to name but a few.

These so-called splinter groups tend to be extremely violent in their approach since they are competing more intensely against more organizations for a slice of turf in the drug-trafficking, arms-smuggling, contract-murder, kidnapping and extortion business, acting as criminal organizations in their own right. This “Hydra effect,” (whereby the elimination of one “narco-kingpin” gives rise to three or four more aspiring splinter-group kingpins) has become a big problem for both the US and Mexican governments and the veracity of their PR campaign in the drug war, which insists that the narco-traffickers are now on the run and the emergence of these splinter groups is an unimportant side note to be downplayed publicly.

eduardo89
09-30-2011, 05:53 PM
so everybody can make it for themselves, but not sell it or give it to another person?

Basically the reform to the drug posession laws stops turning drug users into automatic criminals. They've started treating it as a social/medical issue instead of throwing someone in jail for smoking pot or snorting coke. The law used to be very strict. Simple possesion of a gram of coke could land you in prison for life.

Becker
09-30-2011, 05:57 PM
Basically the reform to the drug posession laws stops turning drug users into automatic criminals. They've started treating it as a social/medical issue instead of throwing someone in jail for smoking pot or snorting coke. The law used to be very strict. Simple possesion of a gram of coke could land you in prison for life.

I'm new to this, but this is one step CLOSER to a peaceful legalization and decriminalization, which US should try, right?

dannno
09-30-2011, 06:00 PM
so everybody can make it for themselves, but not sell it or give it to another person?

I think possession only for small amounts, I think manufacturing any amount is illegal, and selling any amount is illegal.

Whether they are legal or illegal in Mexico is of little consequence, it doesn't really stop anybody from making a profit, it just makes the profits bigger.

Coca happens to grow in the rainforest, so the reasons for their travel in that direction are more geographic, the drug routes are formed around cocaine primarily, and so then pretty much everything else follows.

dannno
09-30-2011, 06:01 PM
I'm new to this, but this is one step CLOSER to a peaceful legalization and decriminalization, which US should try, right?

Well ya, it is more humane than jailing users and addicts, but it doesn't solve all of the problems.

Becker
09-30-2011, 06:06 PM
Well ya, it is more humane than jailing users and addicts, but it doesn't solve all of the problems.


gotcha, thanks.

dannno
09-30-2011, 06:11 PM
It seemed as though earlier you were trying to come from the angle of what if Mexico had better drug enforcement, wouldn't that help the situation in the U.S.?

I would say it would likely lead to an increase in the price of cocaine which would benefit drug lords and cause more violence as well as an increase in domestic methamphetamine production.

eduardo89
09-30-2011, 06:13 PM
I think possession only for small amounts, I think manufacturing any amount is illegal, and selling any amount is illegal.

Whether they are legal or illegal in Mexico is of little consequence, it doesn't really stop anybody from making a profit, it just makes the profits bigger.

Coca happens to grow in the rainforest, so the reasons for their travel in that direction are more geographic, the drug routes are formed around cocaine primarily, and so then pretty much everything else follows.

Exactly, whether drugs are legal in Mexico will not change anything. South America is where the cocaine is produced and Mexico is simply a trans-shipment point on it's way to the big market: the US.

Marijuana is a huge crop though in Mexico. This summer when we were surveying potential mine site, you have no idea the size of the plantations we saw. It was basically marijuana as far as the eye can see. Very cheap too...200 pesos per kilo! (about $7 a pound)

AGRP
09-30-2011, 06:18 PM
1) Legalize freedom.

1a) Legalize all substances including drugs.

2) Allow the free market to take hold within healthcare.

3) Healthcare will be so affordable that those who use/need drugs will gladly seek drug prescription/dosage/etc advice from a professional.

Becker
09-30-2011, 06:28 PM
It seemed as though earlier you were trying to come from the angle of what if Mexico had better drug enforcement, wouldn't that help the situation in the U.S.?

I would say it would likely lead to an increase in the price of cocaine which would benefit drug lords and cause more violence as well as an increase in domestic methamphetamine production.

I never thought Mexico had a better enforcement, although I did think that vigilante violence should at least be more acceptable than government violence.

eduardo89
09-30-2011, 06:34 PM
I never thought Mexico had a better enforcement, although I did think that vigilante violence should at least be more acceptable than government violence.

Mexican drug enforcement is usually the cartel paying off policemen to attack their competition.


Honestly, unless the US changes its drug policy, my country is going to hell. Theres no end to this violence, 40,000 people have already died since 2006. I bet the death toll in Mexico will be over 250,000 by the time the drug war ends (probably because of America's bankruptcy rather than a change in policy)

dannno
09-30-2011, 06:35 PM
It was basically marijuana as far as the eye can see. Very cheap too...200 pesos per kilo! (about $7 a pound)

Cool, now let's do some schwaganomics. I can tell you approximate prices from there, the guy in the U.S. must buy 100 lbs minimum and he can get them for $100/lb. That's $10,000 for 100 lb.

Then those guys sell pounds for about $300 to street dealers

Then the street dealers sell ounces for about $50 ($800/lb)

So the grower makes $7/lb, the exporter (cartel) makes $93/lb, the importer makes $200/lb, the street dealer makes $500/lb

You make more per pound as you go down the chain, but sell a lot less quantity.

dannno
09-30-2011, 06:36 PM
I never thought Mexico had a better enforcement, although I did think that vigilante violence should at least be more acceptable than government violence.

No I meant it seemed like you were possibly going in the direction that IF Mexico some how had better enforcement, either through the state or otherwise, that it might help the situation.

eduardo89
09-30-2011, 06:41 PM
Then the street dealers sell ounces for about $50 ($800/lb)


$50 an ounce? That's not bad at all...Back when I lived in Vancouver (pot capital of the world) 1/8 would go for $30. It was pretty good stuff though, BC Bud is very good stuff. (So I've heard...)

Becker
09-30-2011, 06:47 PM
You make more per pound as you go down the chain, but sell a lot less quantity.

isn't that a good thing? less work for more money?

Becker
09-30-2011, 06:47 PM
No I meant it seemed like you were possibly going in the direction that IF Mexico some how had better enforcement, either through the state or otherwise, that it might help the situation.

I was saying that if the force came from non-state, it would be better. But now I can see that violence isn't always the answer.

eduardo89
09-30-2011, 06:51 PM
isn't that a good thing? less work for more money?

Usually the guys taking the most risk will make the most money. The exporter and the importer make the most money because of the quantities and risk involved. The street dealer can make the most off the finished product, but he doesn't sell much so he doesnt make as much money.

PreDeadMan
09-30-2011, 07:54 PM
libertarian or anarchist solution to drug cartels .... more violence? no no no that violates the non aggression principle..... freedom works.... violence doesn't work.... decriminalize all drugs there's no economic incentive to sell drugs when they are all legal rather then when it's illegal which is where the gangs,cartels, come into play and sell the illegal product as it's worth more when it's illegal than if it was legal and violence and spiking and bad transactions will occur...

The Goat
09-30-2011, 08:07 PM
$7 a pound turns into $1600 to $2000 a pound street price in an illegal market.

$7 a pound turns into $50 to $100 a pound store price in a legal market. completely destroying the whole racket.

Xenophage
10-01-2011, 03:13 AM
The tougher the enforcement, the more valuable the drugs, the richer the cartels. Only way to stop it is to legalize it. Make it cheap and easy to get. Cocaine at your local 7-11, meth at K-Mart.

South Park Fan
10-01-2011, 09:56 AM
Sounds very similar to Los Pepes, and that is not a compliment.