ATF sends memo out all firearms dealers: Legal MM users are prohibited from guns or ammo.

[Anti Federalist]

MM = Medical marijuana.

Shameless cross post for a little more exposure.

If you are a MM user, or hold a MM card, even if you have never used MM, just holding the card or being in a state MM database is to be considered prima facie evidence that you are a "prohibited person" under 18 USC 922(g)(3) and you are committing a federal felony if you own, purchase or possess firearms and ammunition.

ATF memo here:

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2011/09/092611-atf-open-letter-to-all-ffls-marijuana-for-medicinal-purposes.pdf

[Agorism]

MM?

[Anti Federalist]

MM?

Medical marijuana.

[madengr]

Assholes.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm not sure the stories I am seeing on this are reporting the key findings here.

It's bad enough that FFL dealers are prohibited from selling, but here's the thing:

If you already own firearms and ammo and have used or are using or are permitted to use (even if not actively taking it) you are committing a serious federal felony.

ATF now considers you a "prohibited person" no longer legally able to purchase or possess firearms and ammo.

[flightlesskiwi]

I'm not sure the stories I am seeing on this are reporting the key findings here.

It's bad enough that FFL dealers are prohibited from selling, but here's the thing:

If you already own firearms and ammo and have used or are using or are permitted to use (even if not actively taking it) you are committing a serious federal felony.

ATF now considers you a "prohibited person" no longer legally able to purchase or possess firearms and ammo.

it will be interesting to see where this goes... which states throw the middle finger up to the feds, which states surrender more of their sovereignty.

[BuddyRey]

Probably a dumb question, but what's MM?

Edit: Nevermind. Saw it answered in the thread once I refreshed.

[youngbuck]

Many caregivers who don't personally smoke marijuana have their MMJ cards. The ATF's "reasonable cause to believe" is complete bullshit. Tyrants.

[kmalm585]

This is bullshit. If this goes through, whats to stop them from saying that all perscription drug card holders can't have guns/ammo. This is bad.

[AGRP]

Besides being completely tyrannical, it doesn't make sense.

If anyone should be banned from having guns, it should be people who use alcohol.

[Dr.3D]

This is bullshit. If this goes through, whats to stop them from saying that all perscription drug card holders can't have guns/ammo. This is bad.

Yeah, just wait till the government gets hold of your medical records. It's going to happen with the Obamacare package.

[Ronulus]

Besides being completely tyrannical, it doesn't make sense.

If anyone should be banned from having guns, it should be people who use alcohol.

Really it should be federal goons who are banned from having guns.

[Pericles]

It also serves as notice to FFLs that if they sell to a MM user, the ATF may prosecute the FFL holder for making the sell.

Another intimidation tactic to drive FFLs on the brink out of business.

[Anti Federalist]

Yeah, just wait till the government gets hold of your medical records. It's going to happen with the Obamacare package.

Yup, and the noose tighten yet another notch.

I'm pretty sure most folks do not recognize the danger that all these interconnected databases pose.

[Flugel89]

Really it should be federal goons who are banned from having guns.

I second this notion.

[Anti Federalist]

It also serves as notice to FFLs that if they sell to a MM user, the ATF may prosecute the FFL holder for making the sell.

Another intimidation tactic to drive FFLs on the brink out of business.

Yup, that too.

That has been de facto gun control, run the dealers out. at the federal level for what, 20 years now?

ATF shutting down FFL on increase

http://www.tfaonline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1679

Postby johnharris » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:52 am
I know of at least 3 FFL holders in parts of the who are actively being pursued by ATF on license revocations and/or who have recently surrendered the license because its simply too expenses and to hard to fight ATF. What I have seen is that this trend by the ATF is getting worse and will likely get much worse with Obama in control of the Executive Branch (and thus appointing the Attorney General) and with Pelosi and Reed in almost total control of Congress.

One trend I am seeing is that ATF is spending weeks and in some instances months doing a "compliance inspection" that Congress initially intended be a relatively brief spot check to confirm that things were running smoothly and, if not, to give correct instruction and guidance. Inspections which were intended to be cooperative and to help licensees have now become essentially a dreaded visit from the "angel of death" masquerading as the ATF knocking at the door with a slogan of "we are the government and we are here to help you...." Instead, these compliance inspections have turned into burdensome and time consuming almost-anal dissections of a FFL's entire existence including a scrutiny of the FFL's records at a level never seen on a regular basis prior to 2004 and never heard of prior to 2001.

ATF has succeeded in convincing the federal courts that it has the absolute authority to revoke a federal firearms license if it finds even one (1) error on a 4473, or even one (1) error involving anything else that a FFL is required by law or regulation to do. Arguments that perfection cannot be attained have been resisted by the ATF (an institution with an admitted willingness to perjure itself in court in the name of getting guns off the street see documents compiled at GunOwners) or simple Google "ATF INSTITUTIONAL PERJURY"). ATF has sadly but repeatedly convinced the federal courts that these errors need only be reckless and that specific intent is not required (ATF actually argues that negligence is all that is required). See Oct 2008 6th Circuit Court of Appeals decision in Armalite v. Marcia Lambert

The federal courts have bought in to ATF's argument and essentially find that normal record keeping errors are not "normal" or acceptable errors if they are on any document that the licensee is required by law or regulation to maintain. The courts find this determination to be even easier if the licensee has ever had a prior inspection that resulted in the licensee being advised that there were record errors (which is quite common) and that future errors would be considered "willful" violations of the law. Its an absurd argument and frankly a standard that the ATF does not hold its own agents accountable to (agents often make all kinds of errors in preparing their "worksheets" that are used to document the "errors" by federal licensees in order to revoke their licenses). Thus, ATF argues and courts agree, any single error or omission on a Form 4473 or any error or omission (including even transposed numbers in a serial number or minimal delays in transposing information from a 4473 to the bound books) is sufficient to put a dealer out of business.

I would like to find some means of quantifying how many FFL holders in Tennessee over the last 5 years have been subjected to ATF license revocation proceeds (including those who have surrendered their license as well as those who are or have fought to keep their licenses). Asking ATF is useless because they will not disclose the information willingly. I would like to start documenting, perhaps to assist willing federal legislators, the ATF abuses in Tennessee so that the changes which are needed to reign in the ATF's intentional attack on licensees can hopefully be curtailed before it reaches the point that Tennessee's gun owners will no longer be able to buy guns - not because guns have been banned but because federal licensees have been abused out of business by the ATF on purpose.

[TomtheTinker]

Tomthetinker sends memo to ATF: **** you.

[Jandrsn21]

This is bullshit. If this goes through, whats to stop them from saying that all perscription drug card holders can't have guns/ammo. This is bad.

This is a very real possibility. The strange part is weed isn't nearly as addictive as, prescription pain pills or sleeping pills. The law used to craft this rule is is fairly old as well. Why now..... Why just weed?

[kmalm585]

This is a very real possibility. The strange part is weed isn't nearly as addictive as, prescription pain pills or sleeping pills. The law used to craft this rule is is fairly old as well. Why now..... Why just weed?

I know, and the fact that it is a very real possibility scares the hell out of me. This needs to be stopped now.

[Rael]

This is a prime reason why you should avoid getting a concealed carry permit or a medical marijuana card.

I don't NEED your permission.

[phill4paul]

Question 11e of ATF form 4474:

Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Yes or No?

Depends on how you fill in the boxes. However, with the new Health Care law the federal government is already inserting provisions for release of insurance records which would include the use of MM.

It is an end run.

[AFPVet]

They just love creating unconstitutional "policies" don't they? I think it's about high time that we scrap the ATF.... Perhaps we should start a petition. At least it's a start. If we simply roll over and take it up the ass, they will continue to rape us.

[madengr]

The states don't have the balls to arrest a prosecute federal agents. Hell, the sheriff has to authorize any federal LE operation in his county. Of course all the cops are on the dole from fedgov.

[devil21]

They just love creating unconstitutional "policies" don't they? I think it's about high time that we scrap the ATF.... Perhaps we should start a petition. At least it's a start. If we simply roll over and take it up the ass, they will continue to rape us.

Interesting thought there. Scrap the ATF. Maybe in the next debate Ron should mention the ATF as the first federal agency he would close down, instead of going for the easy fish like the Dept of Education and the Dept of Energy. I bet there are a lot of conservatives that would LOVE to hear that the ATF would be the first to go! That's sure to score points.

[Flugel89]

Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

[Cleaner44]

ATF now creates law... so much for the legislature.

[AFPVet]

Interesting thought there. Scrap the ATF. Maybe in the next debate Ron should mention the ATF as the first federal agency he would close down, instead of going for the easy fish like the Dept of Education and the Dept of Energy. I bet there are a lot of conservatives that would LOVE to hear that the ATF would be the first to go! That's sure to score points.

Amen brother!

[AlexAmore]

Interesting thought there. Scrap the ATF. Maybe in the next debate Ron should mention the ATF as the first federal agency he would close down, instead of going for the easy fish like the Dept of Education and the Dept of Energy. I bet there are a lot of conservatives that would LOVE to hear that the ATF would be the first to go! That's sure to score points.

Bump and hopefully this idea is seen by the campaign.

[Tarzan]

OK... before you get all pissed, light up a short one and read this to the end.


First, MM is not legal. There are federal laws against it. The notion of "nullification" of federal laws by the states is not supported... it has been tried for years (100s) and has never survived in court (or on the battlefields of South Carolina). The specious arguments of certain authors notwithstanding.
Therefore, from the federal perspective, any use of MJ is illegal... whether you have a card or not.
Don't blame the ATF for creating legislation... they are merely enforcing the law as created by congress and directed by the executive branch (that's BHO right now).


So, what they are doing is completely in line with the law.

The end part... this points out how important it is to end the war on drugs and remove the federal government from issues in which they have not been given any authority. Hell, if anything use this as another reason to get people to vote for Ron Paul.

OK... all done. Now you drug smoking wackos can have at me! :)

[pcosmar]

Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Yes or No?

unlawful user=NO
addicted to=NO
Just mark no,,, regardless, I am going to pass this information around to Gun Owners I know.

It is only a matter of a pen stroke before it is other legal prescriptions. or political views. or religious persuasion.

[Rael]

OK... before you get all pissed, light up a short one and read this to the end.


First, MM is not legal. There are federal laws against it. The notion of "nullification" of federal laws by the states is not supported... it has been tried for years (100s) and has never survived in court (or on the battlefields of South Carolina). The specious arguments of certain authors notwithstanding.
Therefore, from the federal perspective, any use of MJ is illegal... whether you have a card or not.
Don't blame the ATF for creating legislation... they are merely enforcing the law as created by congress and directed by the executive branch (that's BHO right now).


So, what they are doing is completely in line with the law.

The end part... this points out how important it is to end the war on drugs and remove the federal government from issues in which they have not been given any authority. Hell, if anything use this as another reason to get people to vote for Ron Paul.

OK... all done. Now you drug smoking wackos can have at me! :)

Except it's not constitutional. The Supreme Court might say it is. But they would be wrong.

[Tarzan]

Except it's not constitutional. The Supreme Court might say it is. But they would be wrong.

You mean like: Social Security, Department of Education, Food & Drug Administration, Homeland Security, HUD, DOL, DOC, HHS, FEMA, DOL, DOT, yadda³??? :)

Hey, I hear exactly what you are saying and agree. But right now they have all three branches of the federal government breaking the law (the Constitution)... and the guys with badges and guns doing their bidding. We need some serious "de-legislation". Otherwise, they will continue to enforce what they want, how they want, when they want.

We need to replace all of congress... but, as the old saying goes, "the fish rots from the head".

We, the campaign staff and Ron Paul need to be in deadly earnest about winning this election. We are seriously running out of time. I honestly don't see things lasting as they are until 2016. And, I am not saying take to the streets. The easiest way to have a revolution in a republic is to vote out the jerks and vote in guys who will follow the "real" law... the Constitution.

We need to address the electorate on their terms (don't go all radical on them and call them sheeple, shit like that)... instead, hit them where they live by speaking to their wants and needs (Economy, Jobs, Putting a stop to these endless wars). Then, we slip in and change everything!

I agree with you... I think the only way to get this corrected is by winning this election.
We have to make note of this shit... but, ignore it and focus on the solution. We cannot afford to be distracted by this type of conduct. We need to attack and hit them where they live... in the voting booth!

[heavenlyboy34]

They just love creating unconstitutional "policies" don't they? I think it's about high time that we scrap the ATF.... Perhaps we should start a petition. At least it's a start. If we simply roll over and take it up the ass, they will continue to rape us.http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41574_6712543901_82507_n.jpg

[Professor8000]

I would have to say that the supreme court has no authority to tell me what my rights are and what they aren't. The ATF can kiss my ass. My guns are my insurance policy against the infringement of my rights.

[mrsat_98]

This is bullshit. If this goes through, whats to stop them from saying that all perscription drug card holders can't have guns/ammo. This is bad.

Shhh Dont give them any ideas.