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View Full Version : Jesus or Jail? Alabama town offers options for serving time




Rothbardian Girl
09-28-2011, 11:09 AM
Source here: http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/26/jesus-or-jail-alabama-town-offers-options-for-serving-time/


September 26th, 2011
03:47 PM ET
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If you're charged with a nonviolent crime in one Alabama town, you might just have the chance to pray it all away.

Starting this week, under a new program called Operation ROC (Restore Our Community), local judges in Bay Minette, Alabama, will give those found guilty of misdemeanors the choice of serving out their time in jail, paying a fine or attending church each Sunday for a year.

The goal of the program is to help steer those who are not yet hardened criminals the chance to turn their lives around. Those who choose to go to church (there are no mosques or synagogues in the area) will have to check in with a pastor and the police department each week, CNN affiliate WKRG reported. Once you attend church every week for a year the case would be dismissed.

Police Chief Mike Rowland said the measure is one that would help save money and help direct people down the right path. Rowland told WKRG it costs $75 a day to house each inmate.

"Longevity is the key," he told WKRG.

He said he believes 30-day drug programs don't have the long-term capabilities to heal someone in the ways the ROC program might.

Police in the town said they think it is a simple choice, but others think it's a choice that shouldn't even be offered.

The ACLU in Alabama said the idea is "blatantly unconstitutional," according to the Alabama Press-Register.

"It violates one basic tenet of the Constitution, namely that government can’t force participation in religious activity," Olivia Turner, executive director for the ACLU of Alabama told the paper.

Rowland acknowledged there were concerns about separation of church and state complaints but said he didn't see it as too big of a problem because offenders weren't being forced to attend church, they are just being given the option.

The offenders who voluntarily choose church over jail get to pick the churches they attend. If they complete a year’s attendance, Rowland said, their criminal case would be dismissed.

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I think it's interesting how the ACLU of Alabama says that this is "blatantly unconstitutional" because the government is "forcing participation in religious activity", when according to the article, the choice to go to church would be completely voluntary. I don't what to think about the actual law itself, but it's just funny to me how the ACLU managed to completely misread the intentions of this "new option". What do you all think about something like this?

erowe1
09-28-2011, 11:10 AM
That's so stupid. I have trouble seeing how Christians can support it.

Rothbardian Girl
09-28-2011, 11:12 AM
That's so stupid. I have trouble seeing how Christians can support it.
Haha, I didn't even think of it that way, strangely enough! I can definitely see your point though. I don't know how they can be sure that the criminals' repentance is sincere or just a way to avoid jail. And if it's the latter case, then I don't see how any Christian could support this initiative. I knew something wasn't sitting right with me about this thing!

LibertyRevolution
09-28-2011, 11:26 AM
So, since its an option and not forced that makes this 100% legit???
Could a court say...Go to jail or attended kkk meeting weekly. Would that also be acceptable?

How is a choice of 52 hours of church or 720 hours (30days) in jail a choice!?
Why not offer to just let you go to jail for 1 hour a week?

pcosmar
09-28-2011, 11:33 AM
That's so stupid. I have trouble seeing how Christians can support it.

Some will.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?311234-%E2%80%9CCome-Out-Of-Her-My-People%E2%80%9D&highlight=chuck+Baldwin

http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/home/?p=3859

Created4
09-28-2011, 11:46 AM
This is nothing new. These kinds of programs have been around a long time. Many churches have drug addiction and alcohol counseling available with volunteers that have much better results than anything the state supplies and would cost taxpayer funds. If the churches have programs in place that produce good results, and are used to dealing with these issues, it is a win - win situation. Jail doesn't reform anyone. If the idea is to see changed behavior, then why shouldn't a religious option be offered? This has been going on for a long time already, so this is hardly news.

specsaregood
09-28-2011, 11:51 AM
The ACLU in Alabama said the idea is "blatantly unconstitutional," according to the Alabama Press-Register.

"It violates one basic tenet of the Constitution, namely that government can’t force participation in religious activity," Olivia Turner, executive director for the ACLU of Alabama told the paper.

Rowland acknowledged there were concerns about separation of church and state complaints but said he didn't see it as too big of a problem because offenders weren't being forced to attend church, they are just being given the option.


The ACLU is on the wrong side of this. They are essentially saying they don't want there to be a non-jail/non-payment option and would prefer people spend time in jail or pay a fine.

phill4paul
09-28-2011, 11:51 AM
Well I don't see him saying what 'type' of church someone would have to attend. Perhaps some could set up a church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to give those charged with MISDEMEANORS a place to just hang and have a beer. This is f*cking ridiculous.

specsaregood
09-28-2011, 11:53 AM
Well I don't see him saying what 'type' of church someone would have to attend. Perhaps some could set up a church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to give those charged with MISDEMEANORS a place to just hang and have a beer. This is f*cking ridiculous.

Exactly, it says the can choose a church of their choice.

pcosmar
09-28-2011, 11:53 AM
This is nothing new. These kinds of programs have been around a long time. Many churches have drug addiction and alcohol counseling available with volunteers that have much better results than anything the state supplies and would cost taxpayer funds. If the churches have programs in place that produce good results, and are used to dealing with these issues, it is a win - win situation. Jail doesn't reform anyone. If the idea is to see changed behavior, then why shouldn't a religious option be offered? This has been going on for a long time already, so this is hardly news.

As a voluntary alternative it is a good choice.
As an either/or,, not so good.

I blurs the line between church and state,, and hints of collusion. That is not good.

phill4paul
09-28-2011, 11:54 AM
The ACLU is on the wrong side of this. They are essentially saying they don't want there to be a non-jail/non-payment option and would prefer people spend time in jail or pay a fine.

They are saying they don't want this particular form of non-jail/payment. I happen to agree with them on this point. I also disagree in other aversion plans that benefit other non-profits such as Goodwill etc.

specsaregood
09-28-2011, 11:56 AM
They are saying they don't want this particular form of non-jail/payment. I happen to agree with them on this point. I also disagree in other aversion plans that benefit other non-profits such as Goodwill etc.

Right, they are anti-choice. They would prefer people sit in jail or pay the police state money rather than attending church.

fisharmor
09-28-2011, 11:58 AM
That's so stupid. I have trouble seeing how Christians can support it.

I'd like to take the opportunity to point out, again, that Christians don't get along with each other.
I did a quick check on what's available in Bay Minette, AL, and was actually surprised to find two RC churches there.
But I wouldn't call the remainder of the churches a smorgasbord of choice - I'd call it what you'd expect there to be in rural Alabama.
None of the choices I would have picked or encouraged others to pick are represented. So no, at least one Christian absolutely does not support it.

If it was me in the dock, I'd probably file the paperwork to form my own church with .gov, and accept as a point of doctrine that worship consists of at least two hours of xbox every Sunday.

phill4paul
09-28-2011, 12:02 PM
Right, they are anti-choice. They would prefer people sit in jail or pay the police state money rather than attending church.

No, that was not my position. Perhaps I poorly worded my intention. I believe the are correct. Especially in a town were the only 'choice' is no choice at all.

Yieu
09-28-2011, 12:26 PM
They claim they let you chose which church to go to, but in practice, would they actually let a Muslim go to a Mosque for a year, or people of other religions go to their place of worship? Is this about getting people to reform through becoming more religious (any religion), or is it about giving people the option to convert to a particular religion? If it is honestly the first possibility and they are truly flexible, then it is not so bad. If it is the other, then it would be unconstitutional, and it would be state sanctioned religious persecution.

TonySutton
09-28-2011, 12:29 PM
How is this different than forcing someone to do community service or attend AA meetings?

If the local community wants to try this I say more power to them!

dannno
09-28-2011, 12:37 PM
I think I'd rather go to jail.

specsaregood
09-28-2011, 12:39 PM
They claim they let you chose which church to go to, but in practice, would they actually let a Muslim go to a Mosque for a year, or people of other religions go to their place of worship? Is this about getting people to reform through becoming more religious (any religion), or is it about giving people the option to convert to a particular religion? If it is honestly the first possibility and they are truly flexible, then it is not so bad. If it is the other, then it would be unconstitutional, and it would be state sanctioned religious persecution.

I think the burden of proving they don't really mean it when they say the person can choose their church would be on those against the policy. And since, they already have people watching them for shenanigans, I'd expect they would follow through on their flexible policy.

Let's face it, these people spending time in jail does nobody any good. I'd much rather have these additional options available.

PierzStyx
09-28-2011, 12:42 PM
That's so stupid. I have trouble seeing how Christians can support it.

What? You don't think religious people think their religious beliefs can save souls and change hearts? It makes sense in that way. The idea is going to church for a year may actually get a little church, you know all that loving God and your fellow man stuff, into you. Whetehr its unconstitutional is an entirely different pint, but I get why they would do it.

AFPVet
09-28-2011, 12:42 PM
Most states already have programs like this... only they don't involve church. They are called "deferral programs". When you sign up for an infraction or misdemeanor deferral program, you promise not to be charged with another offense within a specified time. Once you wait it out, the charges are dismissed.

PierzStyx
09-28-2011, 12:44 PM
How is this different than forcing someone to do community service or attend AA meetings?

If the local community wants to try this I say more power to them!


ESPECIALLY AA meetings where you have to acknowledge the existence of God and your need for His help as Step 1.

jmdrake
09-28-2011, 12:52 PM
So, since its an option and not forced that makes this 100% legit???
Could a court say...Go to jail or attended kkk meeting weekly. Would that also be acceptable?

How is a choice of 52 hours of church or 720 hours (30days) in jail a choice!?
Why not offer to just let you go to jail for 1 hour a week?

I think we can all agree that the KKK is an inherently negative organization and a church is not. If we can't then why does the campaign play up Ron Paul being a Christian and play down any association with racists?

I'm mixed on this. I'm for alternatives to jail. I do think the principle of separation of church and state, though those words are not specifically in the constitution, is an important one. If this was worded differently the ACLU wouldn't even have anything to say about it. Say if it was called "Long term convict support systems"? I dunno.

specsaregood
09-28-2011, 12:54 PM
What? You don't think religious people think their religious beliefs can save souls and change hearts? It makes sense in that way. The idea is going to church for a year may actually get a little church, you know all that loving God and your fellow man stuff, into you. Whetehr its unconstitutional is an entirely different pint, but I get why they would do it.

Or even, if you are getting up early for church every sunday morning, chances are you aren't staying out late at night partying saturday at least.

specsaregood
09-28-2011, 01:00 PM
I'm mixed on this. I'm for alternatives to jail. I do think the principle of separation of church and state, though those words are not specifically in the constitution, is an important one. If this was worded differently the ACLU wouldn't even have anything to say about it. Say if it was called "Long term convict support systems"? I dunno.

Which brings me to my position, instead of fighting to remove this option, the ACLU should be fighting to make sure that some equivalent secular options are included as well.

dannno
09-28-2011, 01:02 PM
Or even, if you are getting up early for church every sunday morning, chances are you aren't staying out late at night partying saturday at least.

Or you can go to an afternoon service or if there isn't one (try and LDS Church) sleep through church and go home and take a nap.

Invi
09-28-2011, 01:09 PM
There should be an alternative to this alternative, imo.
Community service for an hour or two a week, etc.

I don't like the choices being jail, fine, or church.
If you can't afford the fine, it's jail or church.
If you can't afford the fine, being in jail for a while isn't going to help you financially, so you may just be stuck with church.

As someone who is not a person of faith, I have still attended sermons since making that choice for one reason or another (usually to appease family), and they don't change me any.

I don't have a problem with it being an alternative to jail time or a fine, but it'd be better to have a non-religious option as well, imo.

Verrater
09-28-2011, 01:21 PM
How is this different than forcing someone to do community service or attend AA meetings?

If the local community wants to try this I say more power to them!

Exactly. These type of experiments are what America is all about.
Working in a soup kitchen would be a good alternative too.

fisharmor
09-28-2011, 01:26 PM
Exactly. These type of experiments are what America is all about.

The America I want to be part of is all about not punishing people for non-crimes in the first place.
Or perhaps even not getting the state involved in non-crimes at all.

gerryb
09-28-2011, 04:31 PM
There are plenty of programs like this already - just replace "church" with "government social worker"

chudrockz
09-28-2011, 04:48 PM
Wonder what the reaction would be if an offender chose the church option, then attended the Church of Satan.

specsaregood
09-28-2011, 04:51 PM
Wonder what the reaction would be if an offender chose the church option, then attended the Church of Satan.

Or better yet, somebody charged with a marijuana crime chooses: http://www.temple420.org

phill4paul
09-28-2011, 04:51 PM
Wonder what the reaction would be if an offender chose the church option, then attended the Church of Satan.

That is a large part of the contention for many. There are ONLY Christian churches in this town. No Islamic or Jewish. No Satan.

chudrockz
09-28-2011, 04:54 PM
I'm in favor of whoever said awhile back, Church of XBox. That would rock. Especially after 11-11-11 when Elder Scrolls 5 comes out! I'm going to church for ten hours daily after that!

Lafayette
09-28-2011, 04:59 PM
If it was me in the dock, I'd probably file the paperwork to form my own church with .gov, and accept as a point of doctrine that worship consists of at least two hours of xbox every Sunday.


I prefer PC gaming , can you change it to 2 hours of gaming platform of your choice?

nobody's_hero
09-28-2011, 05:46 PM
This is nothing new. These kinds of programs have been around a long time. Many churches have drug addiction and alcohol counseling available with volunteers that have much better results than anything the state supplies and would cost taxpayer funds. If the churches have programs in place that produce good results, and are used to dealing with these issues, it is a win - win situation. Jail doesn't reform anyone. If the idea is to see changed behavior, then why shouldn't a religious option be offered? This has been going on for a long time already, so this is hardly news.

It happened to my cousin in Georgia. He was a non-violent offender (except for a fight once, but mostly involved with drugs). A judge told him he could either serve time in prison, or go to a Christian-run camp in west Georgia and have, I think, a year probation following completion of the program.

It worked for my cousin, but it doesn't work for everyone (really it depends on an individual as to whether or not they really want to make a positive change in their life). It kept him from going to prison where he would've learned to be a real criminal.

guitarlifter
09-28-2011, 07:00 PM
Turn their lives around before they become hardened criminals? How about not criminalizing nonviolent actions? Idiots.

BlackTerrel
09-28-2011, 07:41 PM
My guess is this is preferable for all involved. The criminal, the community (less taxpayer fund and less chance of recurrence).

Of course the ACLU opposes it.

reillym
09-28-2011, 10:51 PM
My guess is this is preferable for all involved. The criminal, the community (less taxpayer fund and less chance of recurrence).

Of course the ACLU opposes it.

And rational people who understand the concept of separation of church and state.

What kind of punishment is a cushy indoctrination for a couple weeks? (Church) When has attending church helped anyone but the most dumb and gullible?

BlackTerrel
09-28-2011, 11:38 PM
And rational people who understand the concept of separation of church and state.

What kind of punishment is a cushy indoctrination for a couple weeks? (Church) When has attending church helped anyone but the most dumb and gullible?

From personal experience of people I know - its helped plenty.