Your experience with higher education

[Son of Detroit]

A popular view on here is that attending an institution of higher learning is not a smart thing to do. Many reasons I've seen is that it's a waste of money, waste of time, full of propaganda, and you will not learn much, among other reasons.

I'm interested to see the demographics of college experience on here. If you could, post what you voted for and explain your views on college education.

Poll coming shortly.

[oyarde]

It will be difficult to earn enough more , currently , to justify the expense .

[KCIndy]

I learned that success in higher education depends not on what you know, but whom. I was a good student, but had zero talent at social networking.

[Son of Detroit]

I'm currently a freshman at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, and I do not regret my decision to attend.

It's so much different than high school. The material in class is very mentally stimulating, the professors are highly intelligent and passionate about their field, and the overall student atmosphere is highly conductive to learning.

One thing that stands out for me is that I am no longer the smarter person in my classes. Everyone here is just as smart, if not smarter than I am. I am actually being challenged on my thoughts by my peers, which is something I've never experienced before. I highly enjoy attending class, something I couldn't say about high school. To put it simply, I feel more like a scholar here rather than a prisoner.

Once scholarships and grants are taken into account, I'm paying around $10,000 a year to attend one of the top universities in the world. I can't complain about that. I'll have about $40,000-$45,000 in loan debt once I graduate, but the majority of that won't start collecting interest until I start paying it off, which is nice.

Definitely do not regret my decision, and am looking forward to these next four years of undergrad. After I graduate, I'm planning to attend law school.

[pcosmar]

Other.
Got my GED at LSSU.
;)

[wannaberocker]

When i started college it was all about money, i wanted to make money and was told in order to make money i need college. But when i got out my focus had changed from making money to learning. I developed a love for economics and business matters in college and it has stuck with me. Now im out and dont make much money at all and am very much underemployed. However, i still think my education guided me towards the love for economics.

[PaleoForPaul]

It was worth it for me, but I went the cheap route (junior college, state college, tech school).

[CaptUSA]

If you can afford college, I say go, but I wouldn't go into debt for it. My last two employers paid for me to go, so I went.
I don't think I learned much, but I did get a chance to express my point of view and hopefully I taught some college kids along the way. I also got a nifty piece of paper in a little cardboard folder that they say is of some worth. I don't believe them yet, because I make my own value - not some paper. But who knows? It may convince some future dumbass employer of my worth.

I went to college late, and being an avid reader, I already learned more than what they could teach me. In most classes, I was more expert than my instructors. That made for some interesting dialog in class! I never really experienced the whole "grade you bad cause you disagree with me" thing, but I think it was because of my age. The professors recognized and respected my knowledge. I don't know if I'd recommend that to a younger kid.

[heavenlyboy34]

A popular view on here is that attending an institution of higher learning is not a smart thing to do. Many reasons I've seen is that it's a waste of money, waste of time, full of propaganda, and you will not learn much, among other reasons.

I'm interested to see the demographics of college experience on here. If you could, post what you voted for and explain your views on college education.

Poll coming shortly.
It's not so much that attending is "not smart"-it's that the cost/benefit ratio is extremely poor. Gary North has written some good pieces on how to get a BA without paying the ridiculous costs normally associated with it.

I almost went for a BA in music theory/composition, but the school counselors sucked and wasted years of my time and money. I dropped out after getting the equivalent of a music minor from my local community college. Then I got a certificate of completion in graphic design at Phoenix College for a fraction of the cost of a design degree at ASU. College is only worth it if your career path requires it. Otherwise, you'll never recoup the money you spent going (in real dollars). Definitely avoid paying retail for college, as you would for anything else. Gary North has written some good pieces on how to get a degree on the cheap, which I wish had existed on the 'net when I was 18.:(

ETA: when you graduate and look for a job, your employer will also want you to have experience beyond your degree. Keep that in mind.

[Pericles]

A quality education is worth the investment, but I doubt there are many opportunities today to get the quality of the degree I got 30 years ago.

[Southron]

I had some college and regret wasting time and money there. I'm not doing anything at all related to what I wanted to do. Now I do what I have to do. I'm not complaining but I do wish I had the money back.

[Son of Detroit]

If you can afford college, I say go, but I wouldn't go into debt for it.

How much debt is too much debt, in your opinion?

[AcousticFoodie]

I graduated from a prestigious uni, and while it was a good experience I really didn't learn anything. And of the learning that I did, 90% of it was from reading the textbook on my own. Would I do it again knowing what I know now? Nope.

[Agorism]

I don't think having a degree just have a degree is worth it. If you have a serious interest or a serious long term goal then it makes sense.

There are career paths that require just a degree but that would fall under the long term goal category. Example a police department might require a degree or something (idk.)

I will say though again of the need to sprint through your 20's with goals in mind because you can't redo it in your 30's really. You run through college from 18-22, and then you're done with it and can move on. Once you're settled down in 30's with kids or owing child support, you're not going to have four years to spare that can be used. So there is something to be said for using youth and independence while you have it. So many people in their 30's and definitely 40's just want an 8 or 10 hour day, and then go home for quiet evening. They lack the energy of the 20 year old.

[LopTarDaBoo]

I graduated in 2002 with a BS in Computer Science, but if I were a high school student considering college now I'd lean towards not going. The quality of learning material available on the Internet has increased greatly and I think it's getting more practical for people to simply teach themselves. The quality of instruction received at school is no longer in line with the cost.

[AFPVet]

I had the GIBILL... not using your GIBILL is like throwing a $51,000 check in the trash. If you have it, get your bachelor's!

Conversely, if you have not served in the military, you have to ask yourself what kind of training you want and for what field.... If you only need a certificate or associates degree, there is no reason to graduate from a university. On the other hand, if you are going into something like nursing or something which requires four years of school, then obviously you would need it.

[emazur]

It's so much different than high school. The material in class is very mentally stimulating, the professors are highly intelligent and passionate about their field, and the overall student atmosphere is highly conductive to learning.

I had COMPLETELY the opposite experience. The material in class was not very mentally stimulating: I was forced to take electives for classes I didn't want to take, found them very, very boring, and even the ones that did sound interesting turned out to usually be very boring as well. And since nobody actually did the assigned reading, I found that I could do well in the class and not even buy their shitty overpriced textbooks. Many classes I found the information so boring and so irrelevant, I would think to myself "am I supposed to write this shit down?". So I wouldn't. I couldn't. For those classes, I would purchase the "Student Notes" from a private company that sells you the notes from the "A students" (which I was BTW), and I'd just study those before the tests.

Professors did not teach, they are just grade coordinators. There was not an atmosphere conductive to learning. Many classes, especially freshman elective classes, took place in large lecture halls of 50 to 200 students per class. Professors in the maths and sciences do not speak comprehensible English. You'd have to jump through hoops to try to learn what you wanted to learn. Want to major in computer science? At Florida State, you'd have to first take Algebra, Trig, and Pre-calc before you could take your first computer science class. That's a year and a half before you even got to take the FIRST class in field you wanted to major in, and then that's only IF you were able to make it through the gauntlet of boredom and teachers who no speaka the English. I didn't. Switched to another school for a year and found it no better, then switched back to FSU only b/c I fucking wanted to get college over with as fast as possible (hunting for other schools, I'd have to deal with the "I'm sorry, those credits aren't going to count here" bullshit).

I also disliked how people didn't choose to do marijuana, marijuana was the default choice. Hey, I'm all for legalizing drugs and everything, but drugs, getting wasted, and the surrounding drug culture is definitely not for me.

I'd say going to college instead of rebelling and going out on my own was by far my biggest regret in life. I hold it against my parents for putting me on the 'education' assembly line and I never initiate contact with them.

[Working Poor]

I graduated and would not regret it if everything i was trained to do did not require endless on going licensure compliance.

[PaulConventionWV]

A popular view on here is that attending an institution of higher learning is not a smart thing to do. Many reasons I've seen is that it's a waste of money, waste of time, full of propaganda, and you will not learn much, among other reasons.

I'm interested to see the demographics of college experience on here. If you could, post what you voted for and explain your views on college education.

Poll coming shortly.

I went to a private school, and all of my costs were covered by the school, financial aid, scholarships, and some grants. I don't regret it. It's a great time and I learn a lot. It's free for me. In fact, I've gotten over a thousand dollar RETURN this year for attending. I feel completely fine about my situation and I do not regret it in the least.

[AZKing]

My AAS degree did what it was supposed to -- it taught me skills that I needed for my particular field. The liberal arts, English, and Math classes were not particularly useful, but otherwise it was good.

[MelissaWV]

I went to a private school, and all of my costs were covered by the school, financial aid, scholarships, and some grants. I don't regret it. It's a great time and I learn a lot. It's free for me. In fact, I've gotten over a thousand dollar RETURN this year for attending. I feel completely fine about my situation and I do not regret it in the least.

I had a similar experience to this, except I did eventually get bored with it and leave. That's why I'm not voting in the poll. The closest answer would be that I attended some college and don't regret it, but that's only because it was "free" and was actually paying me back. Without that little detail, no, it was a total waste of time and energy.

[EvilEngineer]

My suggestion is plan college out ahead of time. Don't go in half-assed without a thought in the world as to what you are doing there aside from "my parents told me to".

Also read Debt-Free U by Zac Bissonnette. It will help you find a way to pay for college and get an education without the nightmare of paying 100k for it.

[DamianTV]

I had to pick OTHER because my edjamacashun came frum teh U.S. Navy. The way the information was presented I believe was much better than in a College enviornment, however, I think that many HR personnel have a misconception that Military are just grunts with absolutely no technical training. The Military focuses completely on the subject matter, so if you study electronics, you study electronics for 8 hours a day 5 days a week until that particular school is completed if you dont flunk out. Thus, you can cram a lot of very valuable information in with less time focusing on "fluff" classes, like Guitar Appreciation or Underwater Basket Weaving. The Civilian Equivilant requires many nonsensical completely unrelated classes for the sake of fattening the pocketbooks of the Private Educational Institutions. Some Colleges require a Foreign Language class when knowning Spanish is not going to help me one damn bit when it comes to Electronic Engineering or how to convert AC Power to DC Current that can carry a Load between X and X watts.

I think one of the other problems with College is what happens before College. A lot of people are finding out that what they learned in High School was insufficient to prepare them for the specific College courses that are relevant to that degree. Such as, again, Engineering, and the students find that their Mathematics were insufficient in their preparation for those courses. As a result, many students have to afford remedial classes to pick up what they didnt learn in High School.

I think that a good High School Education 20 years ago is damn near the equivilant of a General Bachelors today, and likewise 40 years ago, a High School Education was the equivilant of a General Bachelors of 20 years ago. The quality of Education continues to decline as costs continue to increase. And I dont think this is all attributable to the advancement of technology. Being a Doctor 50 years ago is absolutely nothing like being a Doctor today. There is a lot more information, however, just because there is more information doesnt necessarily mean that all of that information needs to be taught. Thus, I dont believe it is a viable excuse for why the quality of the education has declined. Information that is no longer relevant or is out of date can be excluded in course ciriculums, to a certain extent. I just think the Banksters got greedy and everyone else has to tighten their wallets to adjust, which I believe is the primary reason Education is suffering.

Thats just my two cents, on Education in General.

[Rael]

College is worth it if you 1) choose a good major and 2) minimize your college debt by doing things such as taking core courses at community college, etc.

[Bodhi]

I went to college and do not regret it. Sure, probably nearly half of the classes seemed like a waste because for a large part they were just a rehash of high school classes or you could condense the material into a few hours lecture and walk away with about the same amount of knowledge. On the flipside, there were plenty of classes where I did learn a great deal and I don't think I would have had the same learning experience had I tried to go it on my own and pick up books from the library.

Also, having the degree helped me to land a decent job that I would not have qualified for without it. Having said that, I work for myself now, but I do still value the education I received.

My personal opinion is go to college if can but don't put yourself in debt to do so unless you are going after a degree in a hard science or other degree where the job opportunities are there and you can reasonably expect to be gainfully employed afterwards in a career that you can earn enough to pay off that debt in few years.

[MRoCkEd]

College is worth it if you 1) choose a good major and 2) minimize your college debt by doing things such as taking core courses at community college, etc.

I agree.

[Agorism]

I agree.

Some school won't recognize those classes though just to note.

[ronpaulfollower999]

I'm lucky. I have scholarships, prepaid college plan, and a college fund that was started when I was born.I don't regret going at the moment. Guess I figure that I have a good shot at making more money with a degree.

College is so much easier. 7 hours of school 5 days a week is pure torture. No wonder we have so many hs drop outs.

[donnay]

College is there to make students mortgage their future. Keeping people in perpetual debt.

I presently know people that graduated in 1999 who are currently still paying off student loans. Oh! and they are not working in the field in which they got their degree in.

I learned more on my own then I ever learned in the years I was in school. As Mark Twain said: "I never let my schooling interfere with my education."

I have own three businesses, none of which, I learned in public school or college.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE

[Son of Detroit]

Many classes, especially freshman elective classes, took place in large lecture halls of 50 to 200 students per class.

I actually like the large lecture setting. It feels like I'm watching an informative presentation rather than sitting in a class. I don't know how Florida State does it, but here in addition to the lecture for a class, I have discussion periods led by your assigned grad student instructor. Both of my discussions have around 15 students in them, and that is when most of the great discussion and learning happens.

For instance, I have Poli Sci lecture two days a week, and my discussion section on Monday. Same thing for my Philosophy class (two lectures, one discussion on friday).

My other two classes are seminars (U of M was the first American college to use seminar style of learning), where there are 20 students at most in the class.

[The Binghamton Patriot]

I have mixed feelings regarding the value of education. Education is only worth as much as you put it. I didn't understand the purpose of liberal arts classes like Western Civ, Human Behavior, Aesthetics, Literature and Philosophy, Pneumatology, and logic until I graduated and had went to grad school. Coming from a private school, I was pleased to see that most state universities (SUNY in particular) don't emphasize those classes and very few require that you achieve an average grade amongst the core classes. These classes were the building blocks of thought and by doing well in them, it enabled you to look deeper into your own major. This is where the value comes from when you go to a private school. Public schools dilute grades, and some only make you take 4 classes per semester. As I went to a public school for graduate school, I could tell that the undergrad grades were inflated significantly. It IS true however, that MANY students who don't belong, get into the top tier schools because of money, or social status. It happens on both sides of the aisle; as there exists a plethora of C Average white shoe boys who graduate from the ivy league, millions of students in the "equal opportunity program" take advantage of over priced student loans to later fail or dropout before graduation. Many kids graduate for political reasons, and only around half of all college graduates, graduate in 4 years.

It also MUST be recognized that it is almost impossible to get a job in many fields without going to school, namely; Accountants, Pediatricians, Engineers (computer, electrical, civil, mechanic, industrial), Doctors, Attorneys, Financial Services, Law Enforcement, Science. With that said, if you find what you love at a young age, it is probably better to focus on being in manufacturing, or a trade, such as a mechanic, carpenter, landscaper, plumber, electrician. These careers are great if you enjoy the industry or grow up around it. Experience is a great teacher, but all experience becomes worthless at some point. The more you can invest in one specialized industry, the better off you will be. College just teaches one how to take direction. There is very little interaction with a real company, real decisions, for real money. Experience teaches you how to fail; and places you in control of your own destiny. There needs to be a way to integrate the practical aspect of a career with education that is specialized. The best thing the education system could do, is drive the focus heavily on finding out what you want to do, as early as possible. By doing this, it allows you to apprentice before college, and gain an understanding of the classes you would need, and specialize accordingly. In consequence, our high schools would be responsible for driving this into the minds of the children for whose education they are responsible for cultivating.

It really burns my ass when I see all these online schools advertising for MBA's and advanced degrees. It's what's really wrong with education today. The fact that you don't have to show up to class, take all your tests online, and do 1/3 of the homework that you would do had you gone to normal business school, should say something about the type of commitment required to succeed in such a school. What does that do to the value of the degree? It destroys it. As an MBA graduate, I can't stress enough how much my degree is becoming diluted. I got a 680 on my GMAT, which probably would have gotten me into a 2nd tier business school. Instead, I opted for a top 40 school, and have 1/3 less debt. I would never attend an online college, as I think they hurt a candidate. It shows me that someone didn't engage in classroom discussion, wasn't forced to join clubs or sports, and grabbed the lowest hanging fruit. It's getting to the point where going to college will hurt someone in the long run. That can mainly be attributed to the price.

My conclusion is: Don't go to school unless you can take out less in loans than you would make in your first year out of school. Don't go to college for something you can get in $1.85 in late charges at the public library (i.e. women's studies, history, geography, music, middle eastern studies, latin, foreign languages). I would suspect you could buy a rosetta stone and move to spain, and learn spanish better while working, than in 4 years at some private school. If you don't have the grades to get into school and graduate with less debt than you would make 1st year out, a possibility would be to go to community college, pay as you go, and then take out the debt for a good school for the last 2 years. Now, if by any chance you are ready to apply to college and find yourself not getting ANY scholarship money at all, it is probably best for you to find a good trade, and get really good at that. After 4 years of working/living at home, you could save up enough after apprenticing/working to start your own company. This is the best way to learn. The only people that can afford a 4 year tuition these days + room and board are those with trust funds and parents with substantial savings. It is the gov't fault that tuitions are too high, but that is another conversation for another day.

Source: 2011 MBA, SUNY Binghamton
2008 B.S. Finance, Roger Williams University

[PaulConventionWV]

I had a similar experience to this, except I did eventually get bored with it and leave. That's why I'm not voting in the poll. The closest answer would be that I attended some college and don't regret it, but that's only because it was "free" and was actually paying me back. Without that little detail, no, it was a total waste of time and energy.

Very interesting. I was thinking about leaving, but my parents talked me out of it and convinced me to get my degree, seeing how it's free and all. I really am not bored of it now that I decided to stay. I like learning, and I attend a pretty prestigious school, and it's my senior year, so I might as well complete my degree.

[XNavyNuke]

How much debt is too much debt, in your opinion?

More than 50% of your net that you expect to earn your first year upon graduation.

I graduated with no debt. Didn't use the GI Bill. Have spent the past 10+ years in a field not even remotely related to my degree.

XNN

[StilesBC]

"I attended some college and regret my decision to attend."

It was a waste of money because I didn't have any idea beforehand what I wanted to do. But that doesn't mean I would never go again. Nearing my 30s and still considering it if I can pick and choose the content. It would be a recreational thing if I did, rather than because I need the degree for anything specific. I run my own business, so nobody questions my qualifications.

[stuntman stoll]

voted other. it was a waste of time and money, except that it was required for the license that I needed to start my career.

[Aden]

Once scholarships and grants are taken into account, I'm paying around $10,000 a year to attend one of the top universities in the world. I can't complain about that. I'll have about $40,000-$45,000 in loan debt once I graduate, but the majority of that won't start collecting interest until I start paying it off, which is nice.

Definitely do not regret my decision, and am looking forward to these next four years of undergrad. After I graduate, I'm planning to attend law school.

Sorry to rain on your parade, man. When the feds passed the debt limit increase they sneaked language into the bill that does away with subsidized loans. Enjoy them while you can because this is the last year they are available. Starting in July of next year, EVERY loan you take out will accrue interest while you are debating and interpreting court decisions at law school. In other words, the day you receive your undergraduate degree the interest starts, even if you enter grad school.

[Lymeade-Lady]

I am glad I went to and completed college--I went on scholarship, so that affects my perspective--it wasn't a sacrifice of money--just time. I got certified to teach, which I did for a time. And that qualifies me for what I do now, so it worked out well. That said, I think a lot of the classes were a waste, but it was a good time of personal growth and transition to "real life". Most of my sense of being educated comes from learning I have done independently after college.

[Rothbardian Girl]

I am in pretty much the same boat as Son of Detroit (college freshman). I attend Auburn University. I have to say as an out-of-state student, I am paying a pretty penny. So far, I feel like education-wise it has not been worth the investment. Perhaps the courses are easy because I am a college freshman that planned to major in a liberal arts field (I've been rethinking that lately, deciding that poli sci may not be the best choice for me), but the classes I'm taking are easier than some of my college preparatory classes in high school. For instance, the people in my advanced English class (mostly upperclassmen) are complete dunces. I scored high on the SAT (780) for the verbal section, but this only really qualified me to get into an English course with lazy upperclassmen, or so it seems. Not to toot my own horn or anything... but I'm a little disappointed at the education quality so far.

I don't mind the large lecture-hall courses because my professors are usually available afterwards if I want to talk about anything, and since I have a hearing disability, I sit in the front of the hall, so it ends up being at least somewhat like a small-classroom experience.

I am actually planning to meet with my academic adviser and ask him if there is any way I could possibly enter the Honors College, or at least drop the extremely stupid "learning community" group that I'm in, so that I'm not forced to take these easy courses in which I could be teaching myself the material. I've only really learned something in my sociology class (mostly vocabulary), economics (mostly how to be a devil's advocate for Keynesianism) and philosophy (which isn't going to do me any good in the real world, although it is quite interesting).

I was fortunate to attend probably one of the best public high schools in at least the tri-state area (PA, NJ, NY), because the college work has been very easy so far. I have actually had to 'dumb down' the skills I learned from my hard-ass high school English teacher, for whom I am very grateful, in order to do well in my college English class. A lot of the writing in this class is timed and limited to half sentences or bullet points. No wonder that is all the attention span most people have nowadays. It doesn't help that the professor is a pompous ass, either.

Anyway, I'm really sorry this has turned into so much of a rant, but I'm seriously thinking about finishing this year and then figuring out what to do after that if I don't get more financial aid to stay here. I don't want to leave, though, because my social life has never been better, and my parents both attended high school in the 70's and never went to college, so they don't understand all the problems with college education and how much of a racket it truly is. I tried to talk my parents into letting me go to a community college and they were very obstinate about my finding a four-year school. Even Penn State's and Pitt's tuition costs are going up for instaters, though.

[ChaosControl]

I graduated and am glad I went to college.
I am not 100% sure I chose the right major, but it has worked out okay as it allowed me to get a decent paying position which in turn allowed me to do my abroad study that I'm doing now. My program requires either being a college student or having graduated, so it wouldn't have been an option if I hadn't gone, even if I did save up a similar amount. And in the end, I have found a way to make my major work in a way that I find worthwhile, but even if I hadn't I always have a good fall back degree that can get me a job anywhere I go.

[amonasro]

I have a Master's and am glad for it. It is necessary in my line of work to make a good living. There is an Establishment for everything, and my Establishment honors a higher education. FTW I'm a classical musician. I rehearsed a symphony with the CSO (yes the big Chicago one) today and it was incredibly rewarding.

[Eleutheros]

I learned more on my own then I ever learned in the years I was in school. As Mark Twain said: "I never let my schooling interfere with my education."

I have own three businesses, none of which, I learned in public school or college.

+rep on both of the above.

The Mark Twain quote reminds me of a self-modified version of a Dave Chappelle skit where he parodies an old HBO slogan where he says, "It's not HBO, it's just regular ass TV."

I use a similar quote to describe college and its presumption to further educate you: "College. It's not an education, it's just regular ass schooling".

[Eleutheros]

It really burns my ass when I see all these online schools advertising for MBA's and advanced degrees. It's what's really wrong with education today. The fact that you don't have to show up to class, take all your tests online, and do 1/3 of the homework that you would do had you gone to normal business school, should say something about the type of commitment required to succeed in such a school. What does that do to the value of the degree? It destroys it. As an MBA graduate, I can't stress enough how much my degree is becoming diluted. I got a 680 on my GMAT, which probably would have gotten me into a 2nd tier business school. Instead, I opted for a top 40 school, and have 1/3 less debt. I would never attend an online college, as I think they hurt a candidate. It shows me that someone didn't engage in classroom discussion, wasn't forced to join clubs or sports, and grabbed the lowest hanging fruit. It's getting to the point where going to college will hurt someone in the long run. That can mainly be attributed to the price.

+rep

My view on this massive influx of for-profit "colleges" and online schools reminds me of this hilarious Everest College parody:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJl0XuDKSjc

[AFPVet]

Education has become inflated... just as others mentioned, even graduate degrees are becoming inflated. When I was in my one of my final classes, we were talking about how the bachelor's degree has basically become the new high school diploma and the graduate degree has become the new bachelor's degree.