How can we not support the Wall Street Occupation?

[Gumba of Liberty]

The idea that these people are just a bunch of radical Marxists and socialists is as ridiculous as calling the Tea Partiers a bunch of racists red-necks. We must support these people. If people are in the area they should join their ranks. Before the American Revolution there were Patriots and Loyalists. The Patriots were a negative movement, meaning they were not for any particular form of government. The Patriots were merely against government in its current form. Once they declared independence then they had they Federalist, Anti-Federalist debate. Right now, both libertarians and progressives understand that Wall Street has hijacked Washington. We must unite to throw out the old before we fight over the new. As a teacher I will be showing my students the results of the Saturday Protests and spreading the word to those who will listen (I have 120 people that are required to by law). If these protests were all over the Mainstream Media I would be more hesitant to support them but considering the media blackout I believe they are genuine and part of the grassroots. Check out a video created by their supporters this weekend. Who knows, they may be open to Ron Paul.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwWInp75ua0&feature=player_embedded

[sailingaway]

We probably do support a bunch of them, but we don't know the agenda of the organizers. You individually can support what you want, but to bring Ron's name into something that may end up unsavory doesn't seem very bright.

I support opposing corporate cronyism with government, and I support free speech and right to peaceably protest.

[freeforall]

I think it's best to support them by talking to them about ideas and of course my ideas resonate with Ron Paul. I also think Paul supporters are welcome. It is a real benefit to all who are involved or watching to be civil and make your voice heard. So far, that is the only common goal I can be sure of. The campaign, however, should stay neutral because a lot of their ideas are not consistent with ours. I do hope some of us that are are well versed in ending the fed are speaking up in their chat rooms and asking questions to the folks running the live stream.

[ZanZibar]

You don't want to be associated with this.

Most of those people out there are socialists.


Besides it makes no sense. Protesting Wall Street? That's asinine.


Wall Street isn't the cause of their problems, the government is. Granted Wall Street is in collusion with the government, but that's because the government has concentrated power which becomes irresistible for Wall Street and they can't ignore it. In fact Wall Street has to get in bed with the government because if they don't, then someone else will and they will lose.

This is why a small limited government with a broader diffusion of power would be better than what we have now.

[MRK]

I absolutely agree that we need to support their right to peacefully protest, Gumba. The majority of the people on the ground there are the same people who will be supporting our coalition once Paul gets into office and the corrupt legislators are kicked out. We need to build bridges with these people, and quite frankly this is a wonderful opportunity. Not for Paul's presidential primary campaign, but for our campaign of ideas that we will be heavily relying on in short order. These are the active people of America who know that something is rotten in the state of Denmark and who will be fighting at our side when the time comes for the people to end the injustices. Regardless of who is pulling the strings behind this event, it behooves us to befriend all fellow patriots, if for no other reason to show them why whem they may be mislead, find common ground, and foster trust.

We can't let the left-right paradigm coninue to keep us shaking in our boots worrying that some Red Team partisan hack will call us out in a party meeting for talking to a fellow disaffected American who happens to be trying to bring attention common ground issues. We can't afford to let fear continue to keep us in line. These are not ordinary times and this campaign does not represent typical campaigns. It is not a campaign solely to convince likely Red Team voters to vote for our Red Team candidate. Of course that has been a tried and true way for traditional campaigns to wrestle votes away from the other traditional candidates. But how has that worked for liberty candidates in the past?

What has given us tangible results in the past is to spread the message of liberty so that we can steadily increase our numbers so that victory will at least come in some of our lifetimes. Diversification of our political prospects can be very wise when you find an opportunity with a high payoff. This is why Paul focused on the message and not the messenger in 1988 and 2008, so that we could have a chance today. But even though we now have a better chance than ever, we can't disregard an opportunity to increase our support if we know we can do it in a sensible way that keeps the Paul campaign neutral in its involvement. We're not talking about Paul endorsing the occupation of Wall Street here, we're talking about independent Americans talking with independent voters.

What if Paul gets into office and has his hands tied trying to repeal tyrannical laws because we had accepted the notion that all things related to Blue Team or progressives damage our reputation, and we don't have the time to gain their trust because we have long tried to alienate ourselves from them and never had the opportunity to build mutual trust by being supportive of their right to protest during the turning points of man versus tyranny? Many may be mislead, but that is why we must establish respectful dialogue.

[AuH20]

You're not going to defeat our oppressors with protests like these. I wish it was that easy. Historically, tyrants don't surrender their accumulated powers peacefully. Everyone of these kids need to get firearms training and prepare. That's all I can say.

[liberty2897]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP9q61Fjlqo&feature=player_embedded

This video was apparently posted back in July, but I had not seen it before tonight. It is the most informative video I have seen regarding Anonymous to date.

[LibertyEagle]

The Occupy Wall Street protest appears to be a part of the “Day of Rage” campaign put together by a global network of “progressive” organizations. According to news reports, about 5,000 gathered in New York City over the weekend.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?318093-Occupy-Wall-Street-A-Wolf-in-Sheep-s-Clothing-yeoman-s-work-by-Eric-Odom&p=3587616&viewfull=1#post3587616

[LibertyEagle]

We probably do support a bunch of them, but we don't know the agenda of the organizers. You individually can support what you want, but to bring Ron's name into something that may end up unsavory doesn't seem very bright.

Quoted for truth.

[affa]

You don't want to be associated with this.

Most of those people out there are socialists.


Besides it makes no sense. Protesting Wall Street? That's asinine.


Wall Street isn't the cause of their problems, the government is. Granted Wall Street is in collusion with the government, but that's because the government has concentrated power which becomes irresistible for Wall Street and they can't ignore it. In fact Wall Street has to get in bed with the government because if they don't, then someone else will and they will lose.

This is why a small limited government with a broader diffusion of power would be better than what we have now.

A) they aren't all 'socialists'. that's an unfair assumption. not to mention, that term has been ridiculously overused in the past few years. you're either with us... or you're a socialist. it makes no sense. reducing your 'enemy' to a 'term' is always an oversimplification, and always a misunderstanding of your enemy. and in fact, in this case, these people aren't our enemies -- they are our fellow populace, sick enough of our current situation to get out in the streets and say something about it, even in the face of pepperspray. i don't need to agree with them all on every single point, and i'm sure they don't agree with each other on every single point. what everyone does agree on, however, is that our gov't and financial system is corrupt and something needs to be done. to ignore our fellow citizens that are also ready for change is a mistake, and to marginalize and insult them is an even bigger one.

B) Protesting Wall Street makes perfect sense. It's a symbol of the financial system, just as DC is symbolic of our political system, and the Vatican is symbolic of the Catholic Church. Movements, to be properly perceived by our media, must act against large symbols, else be ignored.

[LibertyEagle]

What you do is your business, but leave Ron Paul out of it.

[Dr.3D]

I know I don't want to see Ron Paul associated with what they are doing on Well Street.

[MRK]

Zanzibar, I agree that it seems many in the protests haven't isolated the true cause of the injustice, but they have identified a vessel that is flagrantly connected to the root cause. This is why they are ripe for conversion and worthy of our dialogue. We could all stay in our echo chambers and each camp could wither away never walking across the trench to see that there are sensible people on the other front, or we could go out and meet them and show them our compassion.

The protestors there are disorganized, they can't agree on solutions, they just want something to be done. That's why we need to convince them of the merits of liberty, personally and amiably face to face, before they are lead astray by other elements they encounter there.

[ZanZibar]

This accomplishes nothing. If you want to bring about change, the do some phone banking or knock on doors for Ron Paul.

[erowe1]

The idea that these people are just a bunch of radical Marxists and socialists is as ridiculous as calling the Tea Partiers a bunch of racists red-necks.

I guess I haven't followed this. But if they're not socialists, then what's the point of what they're doing?

Superficially it looks like they think America's problems are the fault of the investors, producers, employers, entrepreneurs, and innovators (i.e. Wall Street). If they thought the source of the problems was government, wouldn't they be occupying Washington D. C. and rallying for less taxes, spending, and regulations?

[Working Poor]

I think if these protesters were any real threat to wall st they would be met with bullets.

[jkob]

These people are being manipulated. While some(maybe most of them) may not be socialists, their organizers probably are. Support their right to protest but I wouldn't want Ron Paul to be associated with them.

[freeforall]

This accomplishes nothing. If you want to bring about change, the do some phone banking or knock on doors for Ron Paul.

How is talking to people that are standing up for change any different than knocking on doors? I don't think anyone is suggesting endorsing their ideas. People are just saying be a part of the conversation. The one cohesive goal they have is to voice their opinions and have them heard. Why would you not add your ideas to the dialogue? You think for yourself, right? Do you need to qualify a conversation about ending the fed or individual freedoms with Ron Paul's name?

[ZanZibar]

How is talking to people that are standing up for change any different than knocking on doors?Because I'm willing to bet none of them are Republican primary voters. If we are going to win an election in the Republican Party, then we need to talk to Republican voters.

[erowe1]

How is talking to people that are standing up for change any different than knocking on doors? I don't think anyone is suggesting endorsing their ideas. People are just saying be a part of the conversation. The one cohesive goal they have is to voice their opinions and have them heard. Why would you not add your ideas to the dialogue? You think for yourself, right? Do you need to qualify a conversation about ending the fed or individual freedoms with Ron Paul's name?

So anywhere any group is speaking out about anything, we should be there to "be part of the conversation," no matter what it is they're protesting?

[GeorgiaAvenger]

Not if they violate anybodies rights or disrupt public or private property

[Cowlesy]

Because I'm willing to bet none of them are Republican primary voters. If we are going to win an election in the Republican Party, then we need to talk to Republican voters.

Bingo.

[Kylie]

Because I'm willing to bet none of them are Republican primary voters. If we are going to win an election in the Republican Party, then we need to talk to Republican voters.


And while you are busy doing that, the Republican party is busy fucking us blind.

It's about more than the two party system. It's about more than any of us. It's about freedom, and peace, and prosperity for ALL. Not just the ones who have the ability to write regulations and legislation, or the ones who have the most fake dollars.

I applaud what the WS protesters are doing, whether they have the right ideas or not. They at least have the balls to stand outside, in front of God and everyone, and tell TPTB that they are sick of being treated like slaves to this machine. I wish them well and hope that they stay peaceful and strong.

[wannaberocker]

To be honest i dont hear to many ideas of "Limited govt" coming from the people at the protests. For example a socialist friend of mine was at the protest and i asked her "What exactly are you protesting and what would you like to change". Her responce was along the lines of "We are protesting wall street and everything it stands for. We want these fat cats to give people back their money. The seniors they screwed out of pensions, the Students who are paying these fat cats on student loans."

So i asked what sould she like done about it. She said something along the lines of "we would like the govt to forgive the student loans of all college students, we would like the govt to garantee that seniors benefits will not be cut, We would like the govt to tax these rich fat cats who profit on the backs of middle class and seniors".

Now i understand that this socialist friend of mine is not the whole protest. But she is part of a 30 or so people who have been at the protest and they all have these feelings about the protest. So i personally dont support these protest and what they stand for based on the things iv been told by some protestors.

[freeforall]

Because I'm willing to bet none of them are Republican primary voters. If we are going to win an election in the Republican Party, then we need to talk to Republican voters.

That is a fair reason.

[freeforall]

So anywhere any group is speaking out about anything, we should be there to "be part of the conversation," no matter what it is they're protesting?

That is not what I'm saying. If someone feels compelled to be a part of this I think there are opportunities positive dialogue. Do it, or don't for your own reasons and be smart about it.

[AuH20]

To be honest i dont hear to many ideas of "Limited govt" coming from the people at the protests. For example a socialist friend of mine was at the protest and i asked her "What exactly are you protesting and what would you like to change". Her responce was along the lines of "We are protesting wall street and everything it stands for. We want these fat cats to give people back their money. The seniors they screwed out of pensions, the Students who are paying these fat cats on student loans."

So i asked what sould she like done about it. She said something along the lines of "we would like the govt to forgive the student loans of all college students, we would like the govt to garantee that seniors benefits will not be cut, We would like the govt to tax these rich fat cats who profit on the backs of middle class and seniors".

Now i understand that this socialist friend of mine is not the whole protest. But she is part of a 30 or so people who have been at the protest and they all have these feelings about the protest. So i personally dont support these protest and what they stand for based on the things iv been told by some protestors.

So they're basically in negotiation mode.

[puppetmaster]

well for one thing, I do not trust that our very own CIA does not have a hand in this.......

[Rothbardian Girl]

Because I'm willing to bet none of them are Republican primary voters. If we are going to win an election in the Republican Party, then we need to talk to Republican voters.
A person reached is a person no matter if they are Republican or not. I agree that our primary focus should be on Republican voters, but if we have a chance to reach some of these people, we should take it! I don't see what is so bad about that. Sometimes people are so reflexively anti-socialist or anti-Marxist that they fail to see the commonalities between the different strains of thought.

Some people on this forum are burying their heads in the sand just by virtue of how they are automatically equating these people with the oh-so-scary radical leftists, when we have had coalitions in the past between the "left" and the "right". It is not so clear-cut as what you and some others are suggesting. Saying we are 100% wasting our time by trying to reach out to these people is ridiculous, and I could make the same argument for reaching out to 95% of the electorate.

[Bossobass]

Because I'm willing to bet none of them are Republican primary voters. If we are going to win an election in the Republican Party, then we need to talk to Republican voters.

I respectfully disagree, based on the facts.

Four years ago, we gained a local voice in the GOP. It wasn't because a few people showed up and convinced the GOP that they should vote with us against their comfy little network of deficit spenders, arms dealers and Bush-Blowers.

It was because we matched them, person for person, with NEW PEOPLE. People who never voted in their lives, much less ever thought they'd be a Republican Delegate at any level.

Stats are that less than 20% of Americans vote in primary elections, about 50/50 Dem/Rep, nor is that stat likely to change.

http://img1.imagehousing.com/58/77f4ae80198d98f5b6e3a8614bc8d249.png (http://www.imagehousing.com/image/860980)

Ron Paul cured my apathy. Instead of running around the country with a label maker pasting labels on everyone who isn't me, I'll take everyone I can get to register and vote for RP. My local GOP knows this, has seen the astounding results of this philosophy and it scares the snot outta them, all the way to the top. The old school most definitely isn't afraid that I'll turn their faithful good old boys and girls.

Truthers, birthers, Wall St occupiers, rappers, et al... even registered RP supporters who yell "RON PAUL" at GOP events. So many RP "supporters" piss on these people like they have the plague while they labor under the delusion that "registered Republican likely GOP primary voters" will suddenly jump ship and vote for Ron Paul.

To which I say, good luck with that.

Bosso

[ZanZibar]

A person reached is a person no matter if they are Republican or not. I agree that our primary focus should be on Republican voters, but if we have a chance to reach some of these people, we should take it! We have limited time between now and the election. Because of that we need to only be focusing on those who are going to vote in the GOP primary / caucuses.



Saying we are 100% wasting our time by trying to reach out to these people is ridiculous, and I could make the same argument for reaching out to 95% of the electorate.Stastically speaking it makes no sense to do so. Elections are won on statistics, just saying.

[oyarde]

All I saw on the news was some kid talking about "taking care of society " , bleh !

[CUnknown]

I completely agree with the OP, the cause of the protestors is our cause, and our cause is their cause. Once we get both sides to realize that, we will be making giant steps forward to change.

And protests do change things, and they can change things peacefully. Think of Egypt as a recent example. Peaceful protest is a better tool in a revolutionary's kit than violence, a much better tool.

[erowe1]

I completely agree with the OP, the cause of the protestors is our cause, and our cause is their cause.

Their cause is not my cause. And it's not Ron Paul's cause either.

If people who support them also want to support Ron Paul, then I'm glad for their support. I don't doubt that there are very good reasons for why they would support him. And I hope they share those reasons with more people on their side. But we shouldn't treat Ron Paul like a wax nose that can fit whatever mold we want him to in any and every circumstance.

[ZanZibar]

Ron Paul on the Occupy Wall Street protest - a blog by Doug Wead, Sr Adviser to the Ron Paul 2012 Campaign:
http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/ron-paul-and-the-occupy-wall-street-protest/




Ron Paul discusses it with Reason Magazine:
http://reason.com/blog/2011/10/01/ron-paul-talks-about-the-occup



And Jack Hunter discusses it on Freedom Watch with Judge Napolitano last night:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3kcxARJ1YzQ

[Becker]

because our commander in chief, Alex Jones, says we cannot side with communists.

because ending the fed is more important than feeding the poor.

because we didn't start the movement, so joining them would be conceding and we are people who never compromise.

[CaptainAmerica]

because our commander in chief, Alex Jones, says we cannot side with communists.

because ending the fed is more important than feeding the poor.

because we didn't start the movement, so joining them would be conceding and we are people who never compromise. Dude grow up. I didn't support OWS from the start..and I didn't listen to AJ,and I never even listen to AJ. Don't flatter yourself, I hated OWS from the beginning of it because of the mindless drivel those protestors were speaking, and 2nd off...the MSM reported about it all week , why on earth would they DO THAT?

[Becker]

Dude grow up. I didn't support OWS from the start..and I didn't listen to AJ,and I never even listen to AJ. Don't flatter yourself, I hated OWS from the beginning of it because of the mindless drivel those protestors were speaking, and 2nd off...the MSM reported about it all week , why on earth would they DO THAT?

they report them all week because they've camped there all week.

if they did it for a day, they'd report it for a day or 3 max.

they also got arrested, that's why.

[Proph]

Dude grow up. I didn't support OWS from the start..and I didn't listen to AJ,and I never even listen to AJ. Don't flatter yourself, I hated OWS from the beginning of it because of the mindless drivel those protestors were speaking, and 2nd off...the MSM reported about it all week , why on earth would they DO THAT?
So pretty much what you're saying is...if the media covers something, it's gotta be bad in some way, shape, or form? You've been against OWS from the start, but why? In all of your posts I've read, it's either because they're communists/socialists...or in this case...the media covers them. You should really get out of that collectivist mentality.

+what Becker said. The only time I've seen them cover it was when there were youtube videos online that showed the protestors either being duped or abused (the bridge protest and the macing of those people corralled by the orange net). While the MSM is a spin machine, it's also a business. If people want to hear about the stuff they've seen online, the media better give it to them.

[CaptainAmerica]

they report them all week because they've camped there all week.

if they did it for a day, they'd report it for a day or 3 max.

they also got arrested, that's why. sure they do. Just like they reported our thousands of protestors who marched on DC in 2008. Oh I forgot one detail... the OWS had a PR Firm behind them.

[CaptainAmerica]

So pretty much what you're saying is...if the media covers something, it's gotta be bad in some way, shape, or form? You've been against OWS from the start, but why? In all of your posts I've read, it's either because they're communists/socialists...or in this case...the media covers them. You should really get out of that collectivist mentality.

+what Becker said. The only time I've seen them cover it was when there were youtube videos online that showed the protestors either being duped or abused (the bridge protest and the macing of those people corralled by the orange net). While the MSM is a spin machine, it's also a business. If people want to hear about the stuff they've seen online, the media better give it to them. What I'm saying is you should be smarter than the average bear. http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2011/10/03/2011-10-03_occupy_wall_street_protesters_picked_up_by_publ ic_relations_firm_workhouse_probo.html

[Rothbardian Girl]

We have limited time between now and the election. Because of that we need to only be focusing on those who are going to vote in the GOP primary / caucuses.


Stastically speaking it makes no sense to do so. Elections are won on statistics, just saying.

I wasn't entirely clear from that post. What I meant is libertarian philosophy in general, not just the ideas of Ron Paul. You are probably right, it may be too late and a waste of time to start pushing these people towards Ron Paul as long as we have the GOP nomination in front of us. But if we can plant seeds of doubt in their minds, why not?

It's a shame the vast majority of people there are ignorant and/or co-opted by Soros, but hey, this video gives me at least a small glimmer of hope that there is actually someone intelligent at these protests:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmPWcLQ1Mk&feature=share

One person > none.

[angelatc]

The idea that these people are just a bunch of radical Marxists and socialists is as ridiculous as calling the Tea Partiers a bunch of racists red-necks.

Ugh. You are sooooo wrong. For starts, they're not boycotting Washington DC. These people didn't join the TEA Party in Washington when the government was handing our cash over to the bankers - they sat home a called us racists and corporate tools. (Of course, a lot of people here did the same thing.)

Now, all these years later they're pissed off? Gimme a freaking break. They're just socialists looking to shout and shove their way into power because they know Obama's days are numbered.

[JustinTime]

TBH, Im not sure what they stand for. I hear good stuff, for example today I heard a guy talking about abolishing the Federal Reserve, then I hear crazy stuff, like a 'maximum wage'.

[pcosmar]

TBH, Im not sure what they stand for. I hear good stuff, for example today I heard a guy talking about abolishing the Federal Reserve, then I hear crazy stuff, like a 'maximum wage'.

There are all kinds of people there. many of don't know much more than Something Is Wrong.
Most of them are pissed at the current state of things.

Who do you want them getting answers from,, union organizers or Ron Paul supporters?

[Rothbardian Girl]

Ugh. You are sooooo wrong. For starts, they're not boycotting Washington DC. These people didn't join the TEA Party in Washington when the government was handing our cash over to the bankers - they sat home a called us racists and corporate tools. (Of course, a lot of people here did the same thing.)

Now, all these years later they're pissed off? Gimme a freaking break. They're just socialists looking to shout and shove their way into power because they know Obama's days are numbered.

I thought Obama was a socialist, though? :rolleyes:
I agree that probably a lot of it is partisan opposition, sure, but let's try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I didn't like when liberals were doing it to the Tea Party, but I don't like how some here are doing the same thing. Maybe it took them 3 years for them to realize Obama wasn't going to be doing their bidding, either. I mean, I think most people here saw Obama and Bush were going to be practically the same.

There are probably some idealistic people out there who genuinely thought Obama would bring change. They got gypped, and some of them are still getting fleeced, especially if they subscribe to that "manifesto" that was just released (which is certainly not indicative of all protesters' opinions). But we still have to give the ones who are willing to learn from their mistakes a chance. The problem is definitely not their rage, it's the solutions proposed by Mr. Establishment George Soros and Company that some of them are falling for that are the problem.


TBH, Im not sure what they stand for. I hear good stuff, for example today I heard a guy talking about abolishing the Federal Reserve, then I hear crazy stuff, like a 'maximum wage'.
The 'maximum wage' thing, I'm pretty sure, is a reaction against corporatism and the tendency of it to create 'fat cats'. I'm sure they don't want bailout money paying these guys' salaries. In a genuine free market, you'd hear fewer complaints of that nature, I'm willing to bet. But you're right about how some of them are starting to wake up to the evils of the Fed.

[Proph]

What I'm saying is you should be smarter than the average bear. http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2011/10/03/2011-10-03_occupy_wall_street_protesters_picked_up_by_publ ic_relations_firm_workhouse_probo.html
I could say the same about you.

From the article you linked:
"Nelson says he and several other employees, went down to document the protest last week and to 'help out some friends.'"

How is that different from what we're doing?

As I said in one of your -reps...could you please be more substantive with your posts? Here, you mini-insulted me and posted a link that didn't back up what you had to say in the least bit. ~2k posts in 2 months. Wow. That's a lot of nothing you have to say.

[Proph]

Ugh. You are sooooo wrong. For starts, they're not boycotting Washington DC. These people didn't join the TEA Party in Washington when the government was handing our cash over to the bankers - they sat home a called us racists and corporate tools. (Of course, a lot of people here did the same thing.)

Now, all these years later they're pissed off? Gimme a freaking break. They're just socialists looking to shout and shove their way into power because they know Obama's days are numbered.

The economy isn't nearly as bad as it was back then. The issues are now hitting closer to home, therefore they have more initiative to do something. Unfortunately, they don't know what to do...which is why we need to educate them. Some people on this board just want to throw labels around instead of having discussions, though.

With all of these OWS threads...could we have a dedicated forum (or sub forum) for discussions like these? Maybe a dedicated thread about it? I feel like the same things keep being rehashed over and over again, but in different locations on the site.

[CaptainAmerica]

I could say the same about you.

From the article you linked:
"Nelson says he and several other employees, went down to document the protest last week and to 'help out some friends.'"

How is that different from what we're doing?

As I said in one of your -reps...could you please be more substantive with your posts? Here, you mini-insulted me and posted a link that didn't back up what you had to say in the least bit. ~2k posts in 2 months. Wow. That's a lot of nothing you have to say. You ever heard the story about the pied piper?

[Rothbardian Girl]

With all of these OWS threads...could we have a dedicated forum (or sub forum) for discussions like these? Maybe a dedicated thread about it? I feel like the same things keep being rehashed over and over again, but in different locations on the site.

Agreed... I bet my last ten posts have been relating to OWS. This is getting ridiculous. I hate stalemates.

[angelatc]

The economy isn't nearly as bad as it was back then. The issues are now hitting closer to home, therefore they have more initiative to do something. Unfortunately, they don't know what to do...which is why we need to educate them.

Well, the economy might be worse (which is what I think you meant to say) but those people aren't mad that government took your money and gave it away. They're only mad that the government didn't give it to them.

If you didn't learn that the liberals only want money after watching the anti-war effort vanish as soon as Obama won the election, then I just don't know what we can say that will educate you, much less them.

[Gumba of Liberty]

"Here again is a profound lesson for us today. Too many libertarians have absorbed the negative and elitist conservative worldview to the effect that our enemy today is the poor, who are robbing the rich; the blacks, who are robbing the whites; or the masses, who are robbing heroes and businessmen. In fact, it is the state that is robbing all classes, rich and poor, black and white, worker and businessman alike; it is the state that is ripping us all off; it is the state that is the common enemy of mankind. And who is the state? It is any group who manages to seize control of the state's coercive machinery of theft and privilege. Of course these ruling groups have differed in composition through history, from kings and nobles to privileged merchants to Communist parties to the Trilateral Commission. But whoever they are, they can only be a small minority of the population, ruling and robbing the rest of us for their power and wealth. And since they are a small minority, the state rulers can only be kept in power by deluding us about the wisdom or necessity of their rule.

Hence, it is our major task to oppose and desanctify their entrenched rule, in the same spirit that the first libertarian revolutionaries opposed and desanctified their rulers two hundred years ago. We must strip the mystical veil of sanctity from our rulers just as Tom Paine stripped the sanctity from King George III. And in this task we libertarians are not the spokesmen for any ethnic or economic class; we are the spokesmen for all classes, for all of the public; we strive to see all of these groups united, hand-in-hand, in opposition to the plundering and privileged minority that constitutes the rulers of the state." - Murray Rothbard Libertarians of Will, Intellect, and Action

The importance of educating a large group of well-meaning people who understand the current problem but do not understand the proper solution is the most essential of fights. To look down on your fellow brothers and sisters with such scorn and elitism is foolish at best.

[angelatc]

I thought Obama was a socialist, though? :rolleyes:
I agree that probably a lot of it is partisan opposition, sure, but let's try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I didn't like when liberals were doing it to the Tea Party, but I don't like how some here are doing the same thing. Maybe it took them 3 years for them to realize Obama wasn't going to be doing their bidding, either. I mean, I think most people here saw Obama and Bush were going to be practically the same. .

I'm too old to believe in that whole "liberals have good hearts" thing. They are greedy, endlessly needy, and will indeed resort to violence if they don't get their way. It happens every time. There's really no other way out of this for them, unless an early winter comes on strong.

[angelatc]

" Action

The importance of educating a large group of well-meaning people who understand the current problem but do not understand the proper solution is the most essential of fights. To look down on your fellow brothers and sisters with such scorn and elitism is foolish at best.


Ironic - how elitist is assert to believe that your answer is the proper solution, and to truly believe that those protesters are just lost sheep looking for the one true shepherd?

Because they're not looking to be educated. They're not seeking answers. They want to take property away from your family and keep it.

[Gumba of Liberty]

I'm too old to believe in that whole "liberals have good hearts" thing. They are greedy, endlessly needy, and will indeed resort to violence if they don't get their way. It happens every time. There's really no other way out of this for them, unless an early winter comes on strong.

The younger generation fully understands that they will not get what they put into the system. The system is done. How about we make this know and then "give" the "liberals" their civil liberties back. How about we advocate the end of the wars and "give" the "liberals" their husbands, brothers, fathers, and sons back. Maybe older liberals are more fully entrenched into the system but the difference between a young progressive and young libertarian is a quick flip through Economics in One Lesson.

[Proph]

Well, the economy might be worse (which is what I think you meant to say) but those people aren't mad that government took your money and gave it away. They're only mad that the government didn't give it to them.

If you didn't learn that the liberals only want money after watching the anti-war effort vanish as soon as Obama won the election, then I just don't know what we can say that will educate you, much less them.

Yeah...that's what I meant to say. I was in a hurry.

Maybe I'm biased. I used to be pretty liberal. One day someone asked me to name one good thing the government has done for us. Everything I named, they countered with how the government made the situation worse.

That really opened my eyes and a switch got flipped in my head. My light bulb came on. When I see people at those protests, I see a bunch of people walking around with light bulbs above their head just waiting to be turned on. They obviously care at least a little bit, otherwise they wouldn't go to that protest (unless they just wanted to pick up chicks or whatever, from a guy perspective). If we aren't out there educating them, others with more government-minded solutions would be. At least we provide a free market of ideas by going to these things. Also...I imagine it's easier to change the mind of someone blindly promoting the wrong thing than someone who is apathetic and doesn't give a shit about politics. Those protestors will actually get out the door and vote.

"That which has the power to give you everything also has the power to take it away."

^^That quote also helped me convert along the way.

[LayZayFaire]

I guess I haven't followed this. But if they're not socialists, then what's the point of what they're doing?

Superficially it looks like they think America's problems are the fault of the investors, producers, employers, entrepreneurs, and innovators (i.e. Wall Street). If they thought the source of the problems was government, wouldn't they be occupying Washington D. C. and rallying for less taxes, spending, and regulations?

Bingo!

Not everyone on Wall Street is corrupt. I mean c'mon now.

It seems that the riots that took place in London have made it's way to America. In London, the rioters didn't destroy government property. Rather, they destroyed private property in their own neighborhoods. They destroyed property that belonged to the very people that made their welfare possible -- the producers.

The same is happening here. Not every trader and investor is banking off the government, only the privileged few are (federal reserve....carry trade?). I would say by my own assumptions, that a lot of traders and investors stand a lot to lose when we suffer another major blow to the markets.

What do the OWS idiots think? They think that if only Wall Street were torn down, the little man would get the help he needs. The money that pols gave to Wall Street can be used to pay people not to work and everything will be okay. They are okay with theft, it's just that they would rather rob some other unfortunate group of people to pay off some other more deserving people.

Theft has not left the equation. If these socialists take over, the only things that will change are the pockets getting robbed and the pockets getting filled.

[Jingles]

You don't want to be associated with this.

Most of those people out there are socialists.


Besides it makes no sense. Protesting Wall Street? That's asinine.


Wall Street isn't the cause of their problems, the government is. Granted Wall Street is in collusion with the government, but that's because the government has concentrated power which becomes irresistible for Wall Street and they can't ignore it. In fact Wall Street has to get in bed with the government because if they don't, then someone else will and they will lose.

This is why a small limited government with a broader diffusion of power would be better than what we have now.

THIS THIS THIS THIS! I don't know why people are like "WE HAVE TO SUPPORT EVERY PROTEST!" Calm down, guys we need to pick our battles. These are obviously not people that are in-tune with our views. If they were they would be at Fed buildings rather than Wall Street. This is how I felt from when it first started, it feels like I was right. Don't get sucked into this. It will not bode well for us. That's just, like, my, opinion, though, man...

[AuH20]

Taken from the OW website:


We stand in solidarity with the honest workers of:

AFL-CIO (AFSCME)
United NY
Strong Economy for All Coalition
Working Families Party
TWU Local 100
SEIU 1199
CWA 1109
RWDSU
Communications Workers of America
CWA Local 1180
United Auto Workers
United Federation of Teachers
Professional Staff Congress – CUNY
National Nurses United
Writers Guild East

and

VOCAL-NY
Community Voices Heard
Alliance for Quality Education New York Communities for Change
Coalition for the Homeless
Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project (NEDAP)
The Job Party
NYC Coalition for Educational Justice
The Mirabal Sisters Cultural and Community Center
The New Deal for New York Campaign
National People’s Action
ALIGN
Human Services Council
Labor-Religion Coalition of New York State
Citizen Action of NY
MoveOn.org
Common Cause NY
New Bottom Line
350.org
Tenants & Neighbors
Democracy for NYC
Resource Generation
Tenants PAC
Teachers United

Sad. SEIU? UFT? They're standing with these shady characters? The only difference between these groups and the bankers is that the bankers wear 2000 dollar suits to work.

[jtstellar]

calm down from whatever in your life that's causing you to be emotional, have a minute to actually think about it. you will get your answer.

why can't we do them a small favor by joining their protest and ask for a cut in their social security and union checks in return?

why can't i give a cup of lemonade and ask for a new ferrari?