Group of females corralled then pepper sprayed by cops, WTF? (NYC Protests)

[Wesker1982]

I have never seen anything like this before


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moD2JnGTToA&feature=player_embedded#!

[eduardo89]

What the fuck?! I hope one of those people recording got a clear image of the pussy piece of shit cop that sprayed them.

[eduardo89]

He just walks up to the crowd and peppersprays them for no reason. Isn't that assault with a weapon?

[Wesker1982]

Police brutality doesn't surprise me at all anymore, but the way they were rounded up like that was insane.

[eduardo89]

Police brutality doesn't surprise me at all anymore, but the way they were rounded up like that was insane.It's harder to miss when you round them up

[amyre]

That's insane. I fear things are going to have to get worse before they get better. :(

[dbill27]

The other cops looked pretty shocked that he did it.

[Agorism]

youtube failed when i tried to watch.

[CCTelander]

I haven't posted this in a while, so...:


...the police have NO DUTY to protect an innocent individual's rights and property. The courts in every jurisdiction throughout the US have universally upheld this position. Here's a whole thread on the topic:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=228509

Professional police forces do NOT exist to protect the rights and property of innocent individuals. They were NEVER intended for such a purpose. They exist solely and completely for the purpose of enforcing the will of the power elites, and protecting those power elites against YOU.

In other words they are, in effect, an occupational army whose sole purpose is to oppress YOU. Period.

They violate the rights of innocent individuals every day. They routinely taze, beat and kill innocent people. They destroy their property, bust down their doors, toss their premises and all this without even an apology. They throw innocent people in cages to be abused and raped. They regularly destroy the lives of innocents. They make false charges and then lie in court. The list of police abuses and usurpations goes on, and on, and on.

I'll bump the Myth of Police Protection thread yet again too.

[Rael]

That lady is being way too melodramatic.

[Elfshadow]

That lady is being way too melodramatic.

Ever been peppersprayed?? I bet she had never been before. That crap hurts. If it didn't incapacitate people they would not use it.

[Rael]

Ever been peppersprayed?? I bet she had never been before. That crap hurts. If it didn't incapacitate people they would not use it.

Most people who get pepper sprayed don't act like that. My guess is that she wanted to be pepper sprayed, then when she got what she wanted, made it look good for the camera.

[CCTelander]

Ever been peppersprayed?? I bet she had never been before. That crap hurts. If it didn't incapacitate people they would not use it.


I've never been pepper sprayed, but I HAVE been hit full in the face by a blast of CS. THAT shit HURTS. If pepper spray is even hald as bad, I don't blame the lady.

[Rael]

Here is another example of a total melodramatic reaction. I don't like cops, but occasionally some people deserve a tasering or pepper spray.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGXH-MwUt5E

[CCTelander]

Here is another example of a total melodramatic reaction. I don't like cops, but occasionally some people deserve a tasering or pepper spray.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGXH-MwUt5E


NOBODY deserves to be tazered or pepper sprayed unless they are directly threatening an innocent person with serious harm. Period.

To say otherwise is callous.

[AFPVet]

He just walks up to the crowd and peppersprays them for no reason. Isn't that assault with a weapon?

It is considered class A misdemeanor battery in my state. The stuff that I carried had military grade CS tear gas in addition to over two million SHU pepper and 1.33% major capsaicinoids... that stuff left minor chemical burns!

[satchelmcqueen]

yeah she was really asking for it with her rampant peaceful protest and all....
That lady is being way too melodramatic.

[Anti Federalist]

And everybody just stands around and watches.

If they had opened fire on these people, everybody would have done the same thing.

Just another day in Amerika.

Looks like a public sidewalk, isn't there something about "peaceably assembling" and "redress of grievances" written down somewhere?

[satchelmcqueen]

pussies
Here is another example of a total melodramatic reaction. I don't like cops, but occasionally some people deserve a tasering or pepper spray.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGXH-MwUt5E

[CCTelander]

And everybody just stands around and watches.

If they had opened fire on these people, everybody would have done the same thing.

Just another day in Amerika.

Looks like a public sidewalk, isn't there something about "peaceably assembling" and "redress of grievances" written down somewhere?


Best belay those kinds of thoughts, Mundane. We wouldn't want to start down the road to disloyalty now, would we?

[heavenlyboy34]

He just walks up to the crowd and peppersprays them for no reason. Isn't that assault with a weapon?
Only if you're a mundane. :( :mad:

[heavenlyboy34]

And everybody just stands around and watches.

If they had opened fire on these people, everybody would have done the same thing.

Just another day in Amerika.

Looks like a public sidewalk, isn't there something about "peaceably assembling" and "redress of grievances" written down somewhere?
There you go again, trying to be rational and moral. You mundanes just don't know WTF you're talking about! Just listen to your wise overlords and everything will be okay. /sarcasm

[Cowlesy]

I'd like to see the video prior to the cops busting out that barricade and pepperspraying the people. I assume at some point a full-er length video will be released.

[heavenlyboy34]

NOBODY deserves to be tazered or pepper sprayed unless they are directly threatening an innocent person with serious harm. Period.

To say otherwise is callous.
This^^ The woman was being a little silly from our POV, but nothing worth a tazing. She might even have some sort of disorder that made her react that way-we don't know.

[Pauls' Revere]

be ready for this at political rallies as the election season heats up.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

:48 you can see his face (white shirt). Kind of blurry though. Hope he gets charges pressed against him.

[Carehn]

You can see they guy that did it (I think). What is this all about?

[Anti Federalist]

What is this all about?

Getting everybody in line.

[affa]

Most people who get pepper sprayed don't act like that. My guess is that she wanted to be pepper sprayed, then when she got what she wanted, made it look good for the camera.


that'a boy. keep supporting the oppressors and vilifying the populace. what's wrong with you man? you see a woman get assaulted for absolutely no reason and your first thought is that 'she asked for it'?

fix your head, sir.

[Nirvikalpa]

It's quite simple, it's to get the crowd riled up in hopes more will get angry and be the first to incite violence, preferably men.

ACLU/Anonymous is sending out mass tweets/emails warning the protesters to keep women on the inside, men on outside.

There's also a report coming through that a woman was purposely shoved by police into the street (where she was not allowed) because she was taking video of the mass arrests (she wasnt even a protester) and she fell hard and they knee'd her and arrested her. =/

Might head down there tomorrow, and offer my medic skills.

[ChaosControl]

People should tell the cops to **** off and actually go do their job and actually go after people who are threats to society instead of wasting their time and the tax payers money harassing people who are peacefully protesting. It is crap like this that pisses me off about cops. It just means we have way too many and most of them need to be fired, never to be replaced.

[Rael]

that'a boy. keep supporting the oppressors and vilifying the populace. what's wrong with you man? you see a woman get assaulted for absolutely no reason and your first thought is that 'she asked for it'?

fix your head, sir.

I'm not supporting or vilifying anyone. I've seen many instances where the police were out of line and acknowledged it.
I have to be objective though. I watched this video about 15 times and have a hard time determining who is doing what as it was so chaotic. The video does not show what happened prior to this and there is no context.

Notice that of the two ladies who got pepper sprayed, one cradled her head and was quiet, which is the typical reaction I see in these types of videos. The other was an absolute drama queen about it. I think she wanted to get pepper sprayed, most likely to make some sort of statement, and exaggerated her pain to help drive the point home that the cops are evil. And they often are, but I think alot of the protestors deliberately go out and make trouble and ask to get tasered or pepper sprayed.

[BUSHLIED]

does anyone know the context of the "protest"?

[kuckfeynes]

Well assume she did, she accomplished her goal and got the cop to lash out.
That justifies the action? That makes it okay to counter words with pepper spray?
Is it only brutality when the victim is clearly not acting?
Does harassment justify assault?
Is it reasonable that under a system of monopoly of force, the private citizen is held to a higher standard than the enforcer, instead of vice versa?
If you justify the physical force used on those simply "asking for it," where do you draw the line? Tazer? Shoot in leg? Shoot to kill?
Can a rape victim ever be "asking for it?" If so does that justify the rape?

[devil21]

Once they pull out the fuckin NETS to capture people in the street you know this is the end game in effect. Nets? Then pepper spray. Until it's guns. It's officially over folks. They now have nets to block you in. No sound cannons. You can escape those. No need for old fashioned patrols of law abiding citizens execising their Constitutional right to free assembly. Just grab a fuckin NET and surround them and then shoot....errr spray or taze. Will the media cover this??

This video has become very disturbing to me and Ive seen some pretty messed up shit these last few years. Ill have more to say on this later once Ive processed it fully.

eta: For the poster on this thread claiming "Drama Queen" because she made a big fuss. I have been pepper sprayed. Have you??? It's horrendous shit and so far I have yet to experience a worse sensation than a face full of pepper spray. The pain lasts for days. I wouldn't blame ANYBODY for making the hugest fuss they can muster when pepper sprayed. Speaking is generally hard, no doubt, because you can't breath normally but a determined person could muster the energy even if casually exposed to it.

[Verrater]

The other was an absolute drama queen about it. I think she wanted to get pepper sprayed, most likely to make some sort of statement, and exaggerated her pain to help drive the point home that the cops are evil. And they often are, but I think alot of the protestors deliberately go out and make trouble and ask to get tasered or pepper sprayed.

I have been hit with fox labs and vexor(very high SHU spray), and I can tell you it hurts, can blind you for hours or more, hurt for days after, can induce vomiting, and make it really hard to breath. That can be pretty scary for people that aren't expecting it. She deserves the benefit of the doubt, not the executor of state law.

Either way, I saw nothing in the video that would lead me to believe the use of force was warranted.

[affa]

I'm not supporting or vilifying anyone. I've seen many instances where the police were out of line and acknowledged it.
I have to be objective though. I watched this video about 15 times and have a hard time determining who is doing what as it was so chaotic. The video does not show what happened prior to this and there is no context.

Notice that of the two ladies who got pepper sprayed, one cradled her head and was quiet, which is the typical reaction I see in these types of videos. The other was an absolute drama queen about it. I think she wanted to get pepper sprayed, most likely to make some sort of statement, and exaggerated her pain to help drive the point home that the cops are evil. And they often are, but I think alot of the protestors deliberately go out and make trouble and ask to get tasered or pepper sprayed.

repeating your accusation that a victim wanted to be attacked does not sound any better the second time.

different people react differently to different things. someone with glasses may react differently than someone with contacts. someone who has asthma, even differently. who knows? but your assumptions vilify the victim. you 'watched the video 15 times' and don't know 'who was doing what' yet you've made up a fictional story where she "wanted" to be pepper sprayed and is intentionally being overdramatic.

do you not see the problem with that? it requires you to vilify the victim. face value of the tape: at the time of the pepper spraying, they had been corralled, a cop walked up and pepper sprayed them. they were not being violent. furthermore, you're propagating that story online as if to quell people getting angry when seeing it by presenting the possibility 'she asked for it'. bull. that's just plain wrong on your part.


that's all we know, and that's enough to know the police were out of line. period. there is no reason to possibly suspect the woman knew she was going to get pepper sprayed and was preparing to 'act' for the cameras. that's just silly conjecture.

that in order to get across your point you not only have to engage in complete conjecture, but then place the blame on the victim, smear their name, and ignore the actual video itself says plenty. we do not know what happened before or after that video, and likely never will unless better footage comes out. making up fictional accounts of her possible motivations to push forward your anti-activist ideas is absurd.

[Diurdi]

That lady is being way too melodramatic. Yup. Pepper spray sucks but really c'mon >_>

No, I'm not saying the cops were right to do that.

[123tim]

Slow-motion version where you can see the cop in the white shirt spraying mace about a foot away from the face of the drama queen:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTVXUsQuKD4&feature=player_detailpage

Even the police on the outside of the fence were dramatic. They turned their heads and cleared out of the upwind side of the fence.

Such over-acting.

I've seen this happen a lot of times on T.V. shows and I know exactly how a person should react in real life.


The real crime here isn't the fact that non-aggressive, skinny, women were corralled into a fence and then maced in the face by a 220 pound man from five feet away. The real crime is the quality of acting done by that one woman. I never want her in a fence with me!

[Cowlesy]

Slow-motion version where you can see the cop in the white shirt spraying mace about a foot away from the face of the drama queen:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTVXUsQuKD4&feature=player_detailpage

Even the police on the outside of the fence were dramatic. They turned their heads and cleared out of the upwind side of the fence.

Such over-acting.

I've seen this happen a lot of times on T.V. shows and I know exactly how a person should react in real life.


The real crime here isn't the fact that non-aggressive, skinny, women were corralled into a fence and then maced in the face by a 220 pound man from five feet away. The real crime is the quality of acting done by that one woman. I never want her in a fence with me!

That was ridiculous that cop pepper-sprayed those morons. He's in a white uniform which I think means he's likely a Lieutenant or higher? How could they possibly think that was a good idea.

I still want to see the whole video, but that cop should be put on desk duty. Good grief.

[noxagol]

That was ridiculous that cop pepper-sprayed those morons. He's in a white uniform which I think means he's likely a Lieutenant or higher? How could they possibly think that was a good idea.

I still want to see the whole video, but that cop should be put in jail on assault charges. Good grief.

fixed it for ya!

[Imaginos]

The Fourth Reich is not coming.
It's already here.
:mad:

[freeforall]

Why were they being fenced in? What were they protesting?

[acptulsa]

Slow-motion version where you can see the cop in the white shirt spraying mace about a foot away from the face of the drama queen:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTVXUsQuKD4&feature=player_detailpage

Even the police on the outside of the fence were dramatic. They turned their heads and cleared out of the upwind side of the fence.

Such over-acting.

I've seen this happen a lot of times on T.V. shows and I know exactly how a person should react in real life.


The real crime here isn't the fact that non-aggressive, skinny, women were corralled into a fence and then maced in the face by a 220 pound man from five feet away. The real crime is the quality of acting done by that one woman. I never want her in a fence with me!

+rep.

Yeah, those four kids at Kent State overacted too when they fell down and died. If they hadn't been so convincing when they fell down and died they might not have gotten their asses buried.

Who the hell cares if one of the women seemed to be trying to entrap the cop into doing the wrong thing? Hell, if he was a lieutenant he should have had more sense than to walk into the trap, right?

Does this make you New Yorkers proud to pay your taxes?


Might head down there tomorrow, and offer my medic skills.

And you thought Missouri springtime weather was dangerous. Don't forget your official EMT shirt. It might give you a little protection--maybe.

[AGRP]

The other cops looked pretty shocked that he did it.

Yeah, shocked someone would spray them with peppers, but perfectly fine with rounding up innocent people like cattle.

[kylejack]

I'm not supporting or vilifying anyone. I've seen many instances where the police were out of line and acknowledged it.
I have to be objective though. I watched this video about 15 times and have a hard time determining who is doing what as it was so chaotic. The video does not show what happened prior to this and there is no context.

Notice that of the two ladies who got pepper sprayed, one cradled her head and was quiet, which is the typical reaction I see in these types of videos. The other was an absolute drama queen about it. I think she wanted to get pepper sprayed, most likely to make some sort of statement, and exaggerated her pain to help drive the point home that the cops are evil. And they often are, but I think alot of the protestors deliberately go out and make trouble and ask to get tasered or pepper sprayed.
About 5 ladies are sprayed and they all seem to be suffering. They were taking pictures and saying, "What are you doing?!" to cops who seemed to be roughing someone up in the street. They were staying behind the barrier and not attempting to escape. There was no reason to spray them.

[pcosmar]

What were they protesting?

Corruption.

There are people there with numerous issues. The War, The Economy, Civil Rights. etc.
Pick an issue and there will be some there protesting it.

[kylejack]

Yeah, some are protesting Wall Street destroying the economy and then taking massive bailouts from the public. Others are protesting Troy Davis' execution. It's basically the "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!" protest.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WINDtlPXmmE

[playboymommy]

Posted this in the ultra liberal socialist music forum i'm in....maybe this will get them thinking about blind faith in government and a police state. This is what kills me about women who love government or think government is the answer to everything...i wonder if any of the women sprayed believe in the 2nd amendment.

[pcosmar]

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-- John F. Kennedy

I for one would like to avoid the inevitable.

[Kludge]

Those cops were surrounded by people so docile, the cops all had their backs turned to them while pepper-spraying a group of peaceful protesters they'd already corralled. ...

[moostraks]

https://occupywallst.org/ Some interesting still shots on this site. There are not words sufficient for my disgust on this situation. I also disagree with the website commenter who says not to be mad at those officers who are just following orders. Sorry but those officers are the foot soldiers who carry out the deeds for the cowards in power. :mad:

[GreenBulldog]

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-- John F. Kennedy

I for one would like to avoid the inevitable.

I'm starting to think this is more likely.

When people start coming to protest armed...What would be the result? Escalation of violence on both sides until...?

[Brian4Liberty]

About 5 ladies are sprayed and they all seem to be suffering. They were taking pictures and saying, "What are you doing?!" to cops who seemed to be roughing someone up in the street. They were staying behind the barrier and not attempting to escape. There was no reason to spray them.

It appears to me that he was targeting the red-haired woman with the biggest camera. This probably was an attempt to stop photos and video.

[pcosmar]

It appears to me that he was targeting the red-haired woman with the biggest camera. This probably was an attempt to stop photos and video.
And if that was the case,, what was her crime exactly?

[Anti Federalist]

And if that was the case,, what was her crime exactly?

Contempt of Cop.

May be punished on the spot by whatever means are deemed appropriate to the offended officer, including instant application of lethal force.

[Brian4Liberty]

And if that was the case,, what was her crime exactly?

No crime on her part. Even assuming that she was doing something wrong, it would not make the cop "judge, jury and executioner". The cop needs to be charged with a crime, and fired.

[Zippyjuan]

Hard to tell exactly what happened. I hear some guy saying he was maced.

[Anti Federalist]

Hard to tell exactly what happened. I hear some guy saying he was maced.

Well, when the cops themselves run from whatever is being sprayed and everybody else hauls ass or hits the deck, it's pretty safe to assume a chemical agent was sprayed.

[Tina]

Most people who get pepper sprayed don't act like that. My guess is that she wanted to be pepper sprayed, then when she got what she wanted, made it look good for the camera.

Brainwashing in action.

[kahless]

Some interesting signage.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/58678621@N05/6181891227/

All
http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=all&q=occupywallstreet+&m=tags

[PaulConventionWV]

Here is another example of a total melodramatic reaction. I don't like cops, but occasionally some people deserve a tasering or pepper spray.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGXH-MwUt5E

I have much harsher words for you, which I won't say, but what you are doing here is trying to pit the people against the cops to see which ones they like better. This is not the way to figure out what is just. You can't respond to an obvious case of police brutality by giving us another case of police brutality in which the woman is a bitch. It's still police brutality.

But really, what makes you pathetic is that you assume the woman WANTED it for the camera. There is no way you can substantiate that, and no way you can tell someone how they should feel when they get a bunch of mace in the face. You're really reaching low, and I will have no sympathy for you if you ever are caught under the hand of brute force by the police.

[PaulConventionWV]

And everybody just stands around and watches.

If they had opened fire on these people, everybody would have done the same thing.

Just another day in Amerika.

Looks like a public sidewalk, isn't there something about "peaceably assembling" and "redress of grievances" written down somewhere?

AF, I'm not sure what the 'k' in Amerika is supposed to mean, but if it has something to do with Germany, I might remind you that the Third Reich is long past. They still use that spelling. I think it's disrespectful to link this to Germany when their violent past as a nation is long gone.

[kahless]

You can't respond to an obvious case of police brutality by giving us another case of police brutality in which the woman is a bitch. It's still police brutality.


+1.

The animal cop justifies his savage behavior by saying he has been tazed before and knows what it feels like. He is a strapping young healthy, physically fit guy whom could not have possibly known what the health situation of this woman was. The taze could have very well ended her life.

I know allot of people that look fine on the outside but considering their underlying health problems would likely not have survived that taze, end up in cardiac arrest or have other permanent damage.

[Anti Federalist]

AF, I'm not sure what the 'k' in Amerika is supposed to mean, but if it has something to do with Germany, I might remind you that the Third Reich is long past. They still use that spelling. I think it's disrespectful to link this to Germany when their violent past as a nation is long gone.

My usage isn't Germanic mockery, it's Soviet Russian mockery, as in "Your objection to my spelling of the country is duly noted Komrade, and overruled."

[wgadget]

They've been protesting for over a week now. I saw a tweet put out by someone complaining that the cops had barricades all over Manhattan because of the United Nations shindig that was being held this weekend. I wonder if that figured into any of this background scenery?

Anybody know?

[PaulConventionWV]

Yup. Pepper spray sucks but really c'mon >_>

No, I'm not saying the cops were right to do that.

It's not just the pepper spray either. She was obviously upset at the notion of being coralled against her will, and if she gets attacked like that, well, women tend to get pretty emotional. It wasn't "acting." I mean, come on, people. They were women.

[PaulConventionWV]

Hard to tell exactly what happened. I hear some guy saying he was maced.

I could tell exactly what happened. There was obviously something being sprayed. You can see that. It happened twice. The women were coralled and then sprayed. Not much to it. I wouldn't defend the cops from ignorance if I were you.

[amy31416]

It's not just the pepper spray either. She was obviously upset at the notion of being coralled against her will, and if she gets attacked like that, well, women tend to get pretty emotional. It wasn't "acting." I mean, come on, people. They were women.

You don't get many second dates, do you? :p

[playboymommy]

It's not just the pepper spray either. She was obviously upset at the notion of being coralled against her will, and if she gets attacked like that, well, women tend to get pretty emotional. It wasn't "acting." I mean, come on, people. They were women.

You say emotional like it's a bad thing, kind of like passion for freedom and liberty, ask a metal head who is more emotional (http://www.bloody-disgusting.com/news/music/2115).

[Philhelm]

You don't get many second dates, do you? :p

I don't get many first dates these days. :(

[Rael]

But really, what makes you pathetic is that you assume the woman WANTED it for the camera. There is no way you can substantiate that, and no way you can tell someone how they should feel when they get a bunch of mace in the face. You're really reaching low, and I will have no sympathy for you if you ever are caught under the hand of brute force by the police.

Most protesters are not friends of liberty. They usually are kids with alot of free time on their hands, often socialists and commies, who just want to go out and be angry at something. See this thread http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?318093-Occupy-Wall-Street-A-Wolf-in-Sheep-s-Clothing-yeoman-s-work-by-Eric-Odom

And yes, many of them ask to get brutalized for the attention. It doesn't necessarily make the cops right for doing it, especially if the cop didn't have enough self control and just sprayed someone because they pissed him off. But the protestor who asked for it is still an idiot and will garner no sympathy from me.

I don't know why they were corralled, but it makes me question if they were "peaceful" protestors. Out of all those people protesting, why were only those few corralled?

[amy31416]

I don't get many first dates these days. :(

I find that hard to believe, you're a handsome, intelligent and funny guy.

You didn't take my advice and tell chicks about your IBS issues up front, did you? ;)

[Anti Federalist]

I find that hard to believe, you're a handsome, intelligent and funny guy.

You didn't take my advice and tell chicks about your IBS issues up front, did you? ;)

Poor Phil, is he still battling the drizzling shits?

(see, and I'm married!)

[Ronulus]

I don't get many first dates these days. :(

You still have opportunities, some of us married guys wish we could say the same.

[Rael]

You didn't take my advice and tell chicks about your IBS issues up front, did you? ;)

That's some crazy shit.

[AFPVet]

At any rate, this never should have happened.... So they use chemical irritants (some which cause minor chemical burns) on some women who were back into a corner... yet, they can't use CS/OC on dogs instead of firearms? I was always trained to use the UOF Model (force ladder) and escalate force based on risk perception, subject action and my response (officer response). In other words, if a subject pulls a firearm or a knife, I would pull my firearm. Conversely, if a subject is passive resistant (not attacking me), I would use verbal commands and spatial positioning.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVLutBVJhwUd4lNBr7Ot-Mlw4J7NN6GT81ZFxfGw8PhVu41mMTo-IfkWJw

[eric_cartman]

Look what happened in Toronto, Canada at the G20 in the summer of 2010.

Under Occupation: Toronto G20 Operation - FULL MOVIE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YqU9lr9G-0

Check out all three documentaries at http://www.underoccupation.com .... the third doc, (global hostile takeover) has a lot of Ron Paul in it.

[affa]

Most protesters are not friends of liberty. They usually are kids with alot of free time on their hands, often socialists and commies, who just want to go out and be angry at something.

Why do you constantly dismiss, demean, trivialize, and condemn our fellow citizens at the drop of a hat? That's a terrible thing to do.

It's the same thing people do on other forums - dismiss people like us out of hand as this, that, or the other thing.

Don't let them divide us. Unless that's what you're trying to do?


EDITED: to be kinder.

[kylejack]

Most protesters are not friends of liberty. They usually are kids with alot of free time on their hands, often socialists and commies, who just want to go out and be angry at something. See this thread http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?318093-Occupy-Wall-Street-A-Wolf-in-Sheep-s-Clothing-yeoman-s-work-by-Eric-Odom

And yes, many of them ask to get brutalized for the attention. It doesn't necessarily make the cops right for doing it, especially if the cop didn't have enough self control and just sprayed someone because they pissed him off. But the protestor who asked for it is still an idiot and will garner no sympathy from me.

I don't know why they were corralled, but it makes me question if they were "peaceful" protestors. Out of all those people protesting, why were only those few corralled?
Just stop. There is no way to rationalize macing people who are standing behind the net barrier snapping pictures. They were not being violent, they were not trying to escape, and they weren't interfering in police duties.

[Razmear]

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/147808/nypd-silent-on-pepper-spraying-of-downtown-protesters

Article with video about the pepper spraying and general police brutality.

eb

[AFPVet]

Just stop. There is no way to rationalize macing people who are standing behind the net barrier snapping pictures. They were not being violent, they were not trying to escape, and they weren't interfering in police duties.

If I was an active officer there, I would have put that officer in cuffs and charged him with battery. You don't do shit like that to someone who is passive resistant. The OC/CS pepper that I carried left minor chemical burns... it's not the "training spray"... it's serious shit!

[Rael]

Don't let them divide us. Unless that's what you're trying to do?


I love how every time anyone disagrees with the prevailing opinion around here, the person is accused of "trolling", or trying to "divide" people. God forbid someone should have a different opinion.

[Maverick]

I had trouble playing this clip when it was first posted. It was very slow in loading and laggy and all that. The clip seems to be working fine for me now. However, I'll tell you something odd, there was a difference in the clip before and the clip now. The first time I looked at this I saw about 15 seconds or so before the events happen in the clip as it is now.

What I saw before was a cop involved with an altercation with some mundane in the middle of the street, probably trying to arrest him, when the mundane broke away and jumped back. Then a 2nd mundane jumps on top of his friend and...attempts to pull him away I guess? Anyway, about 5-6 cops grab the new guy and proceed to beat his ass, or so it appears. And then that's where the rest of the clip comes in.

[MRK]

I had trouble playing this clip when it was first posted. It was very slow in loading and laggy and all that. The clip seems to be working fine for me now. However, I'll tell you something odd, there was a difference in the clip before and the clip now. The first time I looked at this I saw about 15 seconds or so before the events happen in the clip as it is now.

What I saw before was a cop involved with an altercation with some mundane in the middle of the street, probably trying to arrest him, when the mundane broke away and jumped back. Then a 2nd mundane jumps on top of his friend and...attempts to pull him away I guess? Anyway, about 5-6 cops grab the new guy and proceed to beat his ass, or so it appears. And then that's where the rest of the clip comes in.


The clip posted in the article linked from drudge was the first time i saw the scenario. Then I saw the video here and noticed that part was absent. I checked back on the article linked on drudge and it still had the altercation you mentioned. Perhaps you also saw the clip from the article linked on drudge first?

[bobbyjay]

I'm starting to think this is more likely.

When people start coming to protest armed...What would be the result? Escalation of violence on both sides until...?

I'd like to see that kind of protest in a Right to Carry state like Arizona, see if the brown shirts errr white shirts want to spray a little peppers on people out there....

[Maverick]

The clip posted in the article linked from drudge was the first time i saw the scenario. Then I saw the video here and noticed that part was absent. I checked back on the article linked on drudge and it still had the altercation you mentioned. Perhaps you also saw the clip from the article linked on drudge first?

Yeah, maybe so. In any event, for all the people wondering why the women were shouting and what they were recording at the time that was probably it. Whatever was going on in the street, however, in no way made it justifiable to mace these women in the face.

[GreenBulldog]

I'd like to see that kind of protest in a Right to Carry state like Arizona, see if the brown shirts errr white shirts want to spray a little peppers on people out there....

Me too. I wonder if cops dare use force (including pepper spray) to a group of people they know is armed.

Or maybe it'll escalate and they'll call SWAT or maybe they'll bring RPGs or something of that sort.

[AFPVet]

Me too. I wonder if cops dare use force (including pepper spray) to a group of people they know is armed.

Or maybe it'll escalate and they'll call SWAT or maybe they'll bring RPGs or something of that sort.

Armed states do not have this problem.

[GreenBulldog]

Armed states do not have this problem.

I guess...Police brutality seems to happen exclusively to unarmed people. Blowback have happened to cops who fucked with armed citizen. Either way, you'd lose because you go to jail. Even if you don't, going to court sucks.

I often wondered: In CA where I live, I have to register my gun. Will that mean cops will be more "trigger happy" if they were to come to my residence because I'm more dangerous? Or would they treat me with more respect?

[Rael]

This video shows maybe 20 seconds earlier. About :5 you can see one of the "peaceful" protestors punch a cop in the face.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqeeDiqu46E&feature=related

[AFPVet]

This video shows maybe 20 seconds earlier. About :5 you can see one of the "peaceful" protestors punch a cop in the face.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqeeDiqu46E&feature=related

The officer blocked the strike, but you're right; however, if you watch, another citizen tackles that guy and assists in his apprehension. At any rate, that wasn't the point of this... the point was that an officer committed class A misdemeanor battery on passive resistant people.

[Rael]

Here is another angle of the incident.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMoKsZp5iao

These hippie wannabes are angry that there are rich people, so they go out and block traffic, and generally act like animals. Nope, still not feeling sorry for them.

[PierzStyx]

Wall Street. This protest has actually been going on for days, with smaller protests nation wide. They even had an anti-Fed protest here if San Francisco. The local and national news is just ignoring it. They are being fenced in in order to be sub-divided and controlled, working on the theory that they are less dangerous in smaller groups.

[Danke]

These hippie wannabes are angry that there are rich people, so they go out and block traffic, and generally act like animals. Nope, still not feeling sorry for them.

The should be put on leashes.

[PierzStyx]

Here is another angle of the incident.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMoKsZp5iao

These hippie wannabes are angry that there are rich people, so they go out and block traffic, and generally act like animals. Nope, still not feeling sorry for them.


I don't know if you know this but Dr. Paul is a huge supporter of the right of civil disobedience. Whether you feel sorry for them should be irrelevant. You should be outraged that a police officer used violence on a group of people who were clearly NOT acting violently. Their rights to civil disobedience, their rights to assemble, are being violated because it makes things "difficult" for those to lazy to do anything about the real issues the nation faces.

And their cause here should be one close to any RP supporters heart. They are protesting Wall Street and its economic redistribution of wealth to the top and placing the economic burden on the middle class. And you know what? They're right. That is part of Dr. Paul's message, that fiat money and central banking set up a system of economic domination that destroys real wealth and promotes governmental expansion and loss of civil liberties. They may be ignorant on how to fix the problem, and I don't know. The group seems eclectic. There are "End The Fed" signs in some of these YouTube videos as well. They seem closer top our brothers and sisters in arms than our enemies. Do not be so quick to judge and dismiss.

[Rael]

Notice the different tone and outcome of this protest. Instead of causing a public nuisance, these folks made a point by actually providing a service. They didn't get pepper sprayed either.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYgBSmbtADI

[Rael]

I don't know if you know this but Dr. Paul is a huge supporter of the right of civil disobedience.

See the video above. THAT is civil disobedience. The protestors in the wall st video are not engaged in civil disobedience, they are just standing around screaming, blocking traffic, and making a nuisance of themselves. Are these really the types of people you want Ron Paul to be associated with?

[devil21]

See the video above. THAT is civil disobedience. The protestors in the wall st video are not engaged in civil disobedience, they are just standing around screaming, blocking traffic, and making a nuisance of themselves. Are these really the types of people you want Ron Paul to be associated with?

The punching video is entirely unrelated to the content of this thread. Im sure everyone is aware that some of the protestors behaved badly. That doesn't mean indiscriminate police attacks of non-combative protestors is warranted however. The spraying cop simply couldn't control himself! If cops can't keep a cool head during protests and other tense situations then they should NOT be cops!

Standing around blocking traffic, being a nuisance, and screaming is perfectly acceptable protest. Violence on either side is not.

[Rael]

The punching video is entirely unrelated to the content of this thread. Im sure everyone is aware that some of the protestors behaved badly. That doesn't mean indiscriminate police attacks of non-combative protestors is warranted however. The spraying cop simply couldn't control himself! If cops can't keep a cool head during protests and other tense situations then they should NOT be cops!

Standing around blocking traffic, being a nuisance, and screaming is perfectly acceptable protest. Violence on either side is not.
If the cops were intending to arrest the folks being enclosed in the net for something that happened prior to the beginning of the video (as I suspect), then I would say pepper spray was appropriate, as the folks in the net were resisting arrest.

If the cops were just randomly netting people and them pepper spraying them, obviously that is not appropriate.

And no, blocking traffic is not an appropriate form of protest. You don't have the right to infringe on other people's right to travel and go about their daily business.

[devil21]

If the cops were intending to arrest the folks being enclosed in the net for something that happened prior to the beginning of the video (as I suspect), then I would say pepper spray was appropriate, as the folks in the net were resisting arrest.

Pure speculation.



If the cops were just randomly netting people and them pepper spraying them, obviously that is not appropriate.

Well at least you concede that much. That's what the video shows. Until you or the police can provide proof of anything deserving of netting like slaves and pepper spraying then it's brutality.



And no, blocking traffic is not an appropriate form of protest. You don't have the right to infringe on other people's right to travel and go about their daily business.

How is it "disobedience" when you're not disobeying anyone?

[PaulConventionWV]

Here is another angle of the incident.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMoKsZp5iao

These hippie wannabes are angry that there are rich people, so they go out and block traffic, and generally act like animals. Nope, still not feeling sorry for them.

What led you to believe they were acting like animals?

You are pathetic. I want to say more, but suffice it to say you're a pretty sad human being.

[PaulConventionWV]

See the video above. THAT is civil disobedience. The protestors in the wall st video are not engaged in civil disobedience, they are just standing around screaming, blocking traffic, and making a nuisance of themselves. Are these really the types of people you want Ron Paul to be associated with?

Well, if everyone demonstrated by selling lemonade, we wouldn't be very successful in raising awareness to government tyranny, would we? Protests have to happen or else people think everything's hunky-dory when it's not.

[kylejack]

See the video above. THAT is civil disobedience. The protestors in the wall st video are not engaged in civil disobedience, they are just standing around screaming, blocking traffic, and making a nuisance of themselves. Are these really the types of people you want Ron Paul to be associated with?
They were on the sidewalk, sir.

[freeforall]

They were on the sidewalk, sir.

There are posts on their forums about blocking traffic protests. I'm guessing that was happening before the netting, but I can't be sure.

[kylejack]

There are posts on their forums about blocking traffic protests. I'm guessing that was happening before the netting, but I can't be sure.
Right, and if police need to clear people out of the road that is understandable, but these were passive protesters who were just taking pictures, and it isn't right to mace them. Police should only use the force necessary to effect an arrest or compliance. These people were not resisting at all and were not even making any attempt to escape the netting.

[freeforall]

I agree. Several posts mentioned we don't know what happening prior to the netting. I was giving my best guess for clarity.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

Here is another example of a total melodramatic reaction. I don't like cops, but occasionally some people deserve a tasering or pepper spray.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGXH-MwUt5E

LOL

She wanted it and got it, deserved it too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZjKdNWno8Q

[GeorgiaAvenger]

It looked to me like they weren't being blocked from the sides, only the front.

Regardless of the cause, those people have no right to block traffic on a public road that taxpayers pay for and utilize. What if somebody was being rushed to the hospital and couldn't arrive because of idiot hippies?

[kylejack]

It looked to me like they weren't being blocked from the sides, only the front.

Regardless of the cause, those people have no right to block traffic on a public road that taxpayers pay for and utilize. What if somebody was being rushed to the hospital and couldn't arrive because of idiot hippies?
They were penned in and were waiting. They weren't in the street, nor were they violent. They were maced just because.

[wannaberocker]

And no, blocking traffic is not an appropriate form of protest. You don't have the right to infringe on other people's right to travel and go about their daily business.

I agree.
They cost people trying to get to work valuable time and money.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

They were penned in and were waiting. They weren't in the street, nor were they violent. They were maced just because.
But it looked like they could have exited from the sides if they so choosed. They were being blocked off from the street.

Regardless of where they were, it wasn't their property. They disrupt business in the sidewalks and traffic in the streets. They are not about liberty, they are shrieking protestors that have no right to protest where and when they want. They are hippie women. Probably socialist.

[wannaberocker]

How is it "disobedience" when you're not disobeying anyone?

And if a protestor blocks traffic trying to be "Disobedient" and provents me from getting to work and thus costing me time and money. Should i then have the right to punch the disobedient protestor in the face to clear the way, so i can get to work?

[kylejack]

But it looked like they could have exited from the sides if they so choosed. They were being blocked off from the street.

Regardless of where they were, it wasn't their property. They disrupt business in the sidewalks and traffic in the streets. They are not about liberty, they are shrieking protestors that have no right to protest where and when they want. They are hippie women. Probably socialist.
It is a public sidewalk. The public is allowed to use public sidewalks. There were only a few of them, it isn't like they were preventing people from using the sidewalk. The police were, maybe.

Regardless, mace should not be used on people who are not even resisting arrest! Even socialists have rights.

[CCTelander]

Sadly, the most sickening thing about this thread ISN'T the police brutality shown in the vid.

[Sjmfury]

From what I have heard the Movement is GROWING rapidly. Though their message is to end government corruption I wish their means to doing so were better, socialism is NOT the Answer.

[AFPVet]

See the video above. THAT is civil disobedience. The protestors in the wall st video are not engaged in civil disobedience, they are just standing around screaming, blocking traffic, and making a nuisance of themselves. Are these really the types of people you want Ron Paul to be associated with?

Some of them were creating problems; however, those individuals were removed by other citizens. The people inside of the "zone" were doing nothing but peacefully demonstrating. If you think that was bad my friend, google the 60's protest videos! From a former LEO standpoint, the only criminal activity (with the exception of one rogue protestor) was done by a police officer. He should be brought up on charges... or at the very least, a disciplinary panel.

[devil21]

And if a protestor blocks traffic trying to be "Disobedient" and provents me from getting to work and thus costing me time and money. Should i then have the right to punch the disobedient protestor in the face to clear the way, so i can get to work?

It's unfortunate that you feel the need to resort to violence against a non-violent actor. You would fit in with the cops in the OP video. Please point out where you are protected from inconvenience in the Constitution. As Ron Paul himself has said, you have to put up with the "bad" exercising of freedom along with the "good".

[Brian4Liberty]

Don't know if this was posted, it's the official Police story:


The Police Department’s chief spokesman, Paul J. Browne, said the police had used the pepper spray “appropriately.”

“Pepper spray was used once,” he added, “after individuals confronted officers and tried to prevent them from deploying a mesh barrier — something that was edited out or otherwise not captured in the video.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/nyregion/videos-show-police-using-pepper-spray-at-protest.html

[Brian4Liberty]

Related thread:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?318569-Anonymous-Leaks-Personal-Details-of-Cop-Who-Pepper-Sprayed-Wall-Street-Protesters
http://gawker.com/5843908/anonymous-leaks-personal-details-of-cop-who-pepper+sprayed-wall-street-protesters

[devil21]

Don't know if this was posted, it's the official Police story:

First Ive seen of their response. Not surprising since they also think shooting unarmed people is "appropriate" action in most cases, until lawsuits are filed and the FBI steps in.

[wannaberocker]

It's unfortunate that you feel the need to resort to violence against a non-violent actor. You would fit in with the cops in the OP video. Please point out where you are protected from inconvenience in the Constitution. As Ron Paul himself has said, you have to put up with the "bad" exercising of freedom along with the "good".

Its not a matter of inconvenience, its a matter of costs. You seem to think that the constitution gives these people the right take part in actions that incur a cost on other citizens.

[heavenlyboy34]

Its not a matter of inconvenience, its a matter of costs. You seem to think that the constitution gives these people the right take part in actions that incur a cost on other citizens.
They were on public property. Unless you want to do away with public property, they have the right to peaceably assemble there.

[Athena]

New videos of the incident from different angles:

https://occupywallst.org/article/Officer-Bologna/

And a picture from this afternoon's march: (just taken about 10 minutes ago)

http://twitpic.com/6r4nzi

[bobbyjay]

Im sure everyone is aware that some of the protestors behaved badly. That doesn't mean indiscriminate police attacks of non-combative protestors is warranted however. The spraying cop simply couldn't control himself! If cops can't keep a cool head during protests and other tense situations then they should NOT be cops!

Standing around blocking traffic, being a nuisance, and screaming is perfectly acceptable protest. Violence on either side is not.

Everyone should watch the Frontline special about Revolution in Cairo. The leaders there worked with leaders from serbia, who also achieved a peaceful revolution. We need training for all protesters, because the natural reaction for people in mob mentality when violence is threatened, or actually used against them, is to defend themselves or run away. protesters need certain training in order to be able to maintain peaceful disobedience against increasing violence on the parts of the police. Also, any protester engaged in destruction of property or inciting riots should not be tolerated and removed from the protest by protesters, before they encourage the police to use violence against other protesters, as what happened in this video.

There is also training done to acclimate people to the threat and use of pepper spray, OC, the freeze rounds, and tear gas, so that when it is used against them they will have some training to fall back on, to know what to do to protect themselves and others while maintaining the peacefulness of the protest. The police will use violence, that's why they're used in these situations.

The media does not show us much of what's happening in Europe, but they know how to protest, because they have access to revolutionaries from neighboring countries that have been successful in recent peaceful overthrows of governments. Our protesters, and indeed all of us, need this training.

http://ruckus.org/section.php?id=71

http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/CDindex.html

http://declarationofpeace.org/resources-for-nonviolence-trainers

However, as others have stated their previous experiences with pepper spray this may come shocking, simply put the only way to know what to expect with pepper spray and tear gas is to have it used against you... similar theory to how cops (used to) taze each other before they could use a stun gun.

[Mini-Me]

Don't know if this was posted, it's the official Police story:

The thick, all-encompassing, completely opaque blue line is to be expected, but what interests me is this: Apparently, the other cops looked shocked at this guy's actions...but in the end, the department once again did the predictable thing and stepped in to shield one of its own from accountability. (Even if "preventing officers from deploying a mesh barrier" would somehow deserve an escalation of force - preposterous, and something which would be a felony for any of us - their account is silly: Since the barrier was already up at the time of the spraying, using the pepper spray served no purpose beyond revenge or bullying.) The apparent shock of the other cops indicate there might be halfway decent but cowardly people working as cops in that department...but there are no good cops, i.e. cops who actually do their job. If there were, this guy would have been tackled and hog-tied. All should be fired, one should be charged with assault, and many should be charged with conspiracy and obstruction of justice. LOL, like that will ever happen.

[dannno]

Why is the officer's last name Bologna??

That was the name of my hamster.

[Mini-Me]

Why is the officer's last name Bologna??

That was the name of my hamster.

...and also what it became? (Please don't kill me. ;))

[affa]

This video shows maybe 20 seconds earlier. About :5 you can see one of the "peaceful" protestors punch a cop in the face.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqeeDiqu46E&feature=related

actually, as the camera pans over it appears the citizen is already on his knees, then leaps up, and yes, strikes towards the cop.

but:

A) this has nothing to do with the incident being discussed. different people.
B) even this extended video only shows part of what happened. we don't know what happened to that citizen to put him on his knees, which then cause him to strike. he could be a jerk. he could be defending himself. can't tell. but regardless, see point A.

[affa]

I love how every time anyone disagrees with the prevailing opinion around here, the person is accused of "trolling", or trying to "divide" people. God forbid someone should have a different opinion.

No, don't try to dodge this. I didn't not say you were trolling. I am saying you are clearly, fully, and completely trying to divide the populace. You have come on strong, dismissing protestors, insulting them, condemning them, marginalizing them. you have said this particular person 'asked for it' and was overreacting.

Your words seek to put forth a world view that is 'us' vs. 'them', but the 'them' isn't the oppressive state, but our fellow citizens who are trying to peacefully assemble at a time when that's almost impossible because the state repeatedly corrals and peppersprays peaceful protestors.

That is why I not only call you divisive, but can easily reference your own stance to prove it. You are on the side of the state. You try to convince us these protestors are nothing but riff raff. And I'm calling you out on it. It has nothing to do with you 'disagreeing', and everything to do with what the content of your message is. If, magically, you were to convince me you were right, it would -divide- me from my fellow peaceful citizen. It would ultimately divide me from my own right to peacefully protest, since those who seek to dismiss protestors effectively seek to dismiss protest itself.

[kylejack]

actually, as the camera pans over it appears the citizen is already on his knees, then leaps up, and yes, strikes towards the cop.

but:

A) this has nothing to do with the incident being discussed. different people.
B) even this extended video only shows part of what happened. we don't know what happened to that citizen to put him on his knees, which then cause him to strike. he could be a jerk. he could be defending himself. can't tell. but regardless, see point A.
What I pieced together from the multiple videos:

The police ordered everyone up on to the sidewalk. Most started moving up on to the sidewalks and others got some hard shoves. A tall black protester steps back into the streets and the cops start grabbing at him, with one white shirt giving him a hard poke with the night stick. Other protesters try to pull him back into the crowd and there's a little tug of war. Eventually the cops win, pull the guy back into the street and throw him to the ground.

Then some other guy in a green shirt and orange bandana steps onto the street and gets extremely close to the arrest with a camera, maybe trying to communicate with the guy getting arrested. A cop shoves him away and then he takes a swing at the cop. A white shirt tackles him from behind, he resists, and the white shirt cop throws him into a car. Meanwhile there is some kind of scuffle going on between a fat girl behind the barrier and the cops holding the net. I can't tell who attacked who first, but there's a few seconds of a cop holding her by the hair. Everything that has happened so far is controversial, but might be appropriate police behavior...maybe.

There's some ladies that are yelling at the cop who is throwing the guy against the car, but who made no attempt to cross the line and were just taking pictures and yelling at the cops. These ladies were at least 20 - 25 feet from the other fat woman. After taking away the guy who had assaulted the cop, two white shirts return and one sprays all the ladies in the face with a large sweeping motion. He holsters his canister and walks away. He wasn't trying to effect an arrest or detain anyone. None of those ladies seemed to do anything to deserve it.

[Rael]

No, don't try to dodge this. I didn't not say you were trolling. I am saying you are clearly, fully, and completely trying to divide the populace. You have come on strong, dismissing protestors, insulting them, condemning them, marginalizing them. you have said this particular person 'asked for it' and was overreacting.

Your words seek to put forth a world view that is 'us' vs. 'them', but the 'them' isn't the oppressive state, but our fellow citizens who are trying to peacefully assemble at a time when that's almost impossible because the state repeatedly corrals and peppersprays peaceful protestors.

That is why I not only call you divisive, but can easily reference your own stance to prove it. You are on the side of the state. You try to convince us these protestors are nothing but riff raff. And I'm calling you out on it. It has nothing to do with you 'disagreeing', and everything to do with what the content of your message is. If, magically, you were to convince me you were right, it would -divide- me from my fellow peaceful citizen. It would ultimately divide me from my own right to peacefully protest, since those who seek to dismiss protestors effectively seek to dismiss protest itself.

Your argument is a straw man, because you keep referring to these folks as "peaceful". The folks that got sprayed were being corralled onto the sidewalk, which leads me to believe that prior to the beginning of the video they were in the street blocking other people from going about their business (as others still are doing in the video). It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were violent, as that seemed to be common at this protest.

Now if you find a video that shows what was happening before, and it reveals that all the corralled folks were just sitting around singing Kumbaya, I will be the first to condemn the cop and defend those people. Since we don't see what happened prior, I can only try to guess what happened, but based on everything I see in the video, my best guess is that those people were not innocent and peaceful.

[wannaberocker]

They were on public property. Unless you want to do away with public property, they have the right to peaceably assemble there.

Of course they have that right. But they dont have the right to prevent others from using the same public sidewalk in order to get to their destination. THey also dont have the right to block traffic or to prevent other citizens from using the roads.

What part of that dont you folks understand? You all act like the protests have rights, but if your not a protester you have no rights.

Remember you have the right to free speech. But your not allowed to yell "Fire" in a theater because that incur's a cost on other citizens.

[CCTelander]

I could see a few in this thread gleefully cheering back in the 60s as the cops "cracked those damned hippies' skulls" during the civil rights protests going on at the time.

It's truly sickening.

[Wesker1982]

But your not allowed to yell "Fire" in a theater because that incur's a cost on other citizens.

http://mises.org/resources.aspx?Id=458c3008-8d05-460b-889a-54b047ad4e15

[wannaberocker]

http://mises.org/resources.aspx?Id=458c3008-8d05-460b-889a-54b047ad4e15

Thanks for the post. But that still dosnt take away from my origional point. To suggest that the protestors have a right to be on the sidewalk and protest is fine. But to connect that to the idea that they somehow also have the right to prevent others from using the same public sidewalk is flawed. To suggest that the protestors have a right to block traffic and prevent other citizens from using the road is again flawed.

The mises article actually backs up my point in general.

[kylejack]

Your argument is a straw man, because you keep referring to these folks as "peaceful". The folks that got sprayed were being corralled onto the sidewalk, which leads me to believe that prior to the beginning of the video they were in the street blocking other people from going about their business (as others still are doing in the video). It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were violent, as that seemed to be common at this protest.
Again your arguments are all founded on a bad premise: That police are justified in assaulting passive people because of something they did in the past. They are not. Police should use only the force necessary, and only as long as that amount of force is necessary. If the officer was trying to effect an arrest, he would have waited around to collect them after macing them. He did not. He just holstered his cannister and wandered off. A few minutes later, the remaining police packed up the net and left.

This is civil law enforcement, not a fucking war. Police are not justified to engage in ultra-violence the moment they see someone breaking the law, and for as long as they want after that.


Now if you find a video that shows what was happening before, and it reveals that all the corralled folks were just sitting around singing Kumbaya, I will be the first to condemn the cop and defend those people. Since we don't see what happened prior, I can only try to guess what happened, but based on everything I see in the video, my best guess is that those people were not innocent and peaceful.
I guess you haven't watched the videos that have been linked in the thread. I wrote a synopsis of the entire series of events as documented by the various videos. The interactions start well before the people are corraled. You won't be the first to condemn the cop, you'll be the last.

[kylejack]

Of course they have that right. But they dont have the right to prevent others from using the same public sidewalk in order to get to their destination. THey also dont have the right to block traffic or to prevent other citizens from using the roads.

What part of that dont you folks understand? You all act like the protests have rights, but if your not a protester you have no rights.

Remember you have the right to free speech. But your not allowed to yell "Fire" in a theater because that incur's a cost on other citizens.
Again you are straying far from the linked videos. Peaceful women who were taking pictures and talking to the police from behind a police-erected barrier were attacked by a cop who had no interest in arresting or detaining them. Then he holstered his cannister and wandered off. This was a high-ranking supervisor, and the grunt cops seemed amazed. Why aren't you?

[wannaberocker]

Again you are straying far from the linked videos. Peaceful women who were taking pictures and talking to the police from behind a police-erected barrier were attacked by a cop who had no interest in arresting or detaining them. Then he holstered his cannister and wandered off. This was a high-ranking supervisor, and the grunt cops seemed amazed. Why aren't you?

The discussion im having has nothing to do with the cops actions. Its more about the rights of diff people the protestors and the non protestors.

[Brian4Liberty]

I could see a few in this thread gleefully cheering back in the 60s as the cops "cracked those damned hippies' skulls" during the civil rights protests going on at the time.

It's truly sickening.

Can't let the hippies conglomerate! ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YGg7cDy7MA

[wannaberocker]

Can't let the hippies conglomerate! ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YGg7cDy7MA

My God, the problem is even worse.

Someone give Cartman the Authorataaa to eliminate the hippies lol.

[affa]

Your argument is a straw man, because you keep referring to these folks as "peaceful".

Please look up strawman before you use it. I am not creating a strawman, i am holding you to your words - that a woman 'asked for it', plus a half dozen or so general insults towards protesters.

I do not need to build a strawman, nor did i. and their being peaceful or not has absolutely no bearing on what i am calling you out on.

If you do not want to be held to your words, then don't speak.
If you do not want to be judged on your words, then don't speak.

And I highly recommend researching fallacy before you accuse others of it.

It is quite clear to anyone paying attention that you judged these people from the getgo. And then condemned them on your prejudice publicly. I hold you to that.


Y The folks that got sprayed were being corralled onto the sidewalk, which leads me to believe that prior to the beginning of the video they were in the street blocking other people from going about their business (as others still are doing in the video). It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were violent, as that seemed to be common at this protest.

Your entire argument is consistently based on conjecture. You've been repeatedly told this by numerous people, but rather than admit your mistake, you repeat it endlessly. Perhaps you should look up conjecture while you're reading about strawmen. I am sorry if that comes off as insulting, but seriously, it's hard enough to be civil to you after your earlier posts.




Now if you find a video that shows what was happening before, and it reveals that all the corralled folks were just sitting around singing Kumbaya, I will be the first to condemn the cop and defend those people. Since we don't see what happened prior, I can only try to guess what happened, but based on everything I see in the video, my best guess is that those people were not innocent and peaceful.

See, here's the problem. Let me try to explain it:

We don't know what happened before, we only know what we see on the tape.

I don't claim to know what happened before. I have no idea. I do know at the time they were pepper sprayed it was out of line.

You, however, have made up an entire fiction, repeatedly, which condemns the victims -- you even went so far as to say the one girl must have asked for it so she could intentionally ham it up for the cameras.

You sir, are the one out of line. I make no assumptions about their prior guilt or innocence. You do. See, my case doesn't rely on prior evidence, since it's clear at the time of the pepper spraying they were already contained, were non-violent, and the officer with the pepper spray is clearly out of line. Even if prior violence existed, which is doubtful, it was not happening during the video.

I don't need to 'guess' what happened beforehand, and the fact that you not only 'guess' but then judge them on it, is absurd.

[affa]

Of course they have that right. But they dont have the right to prevent others from using the same public sidewalk in order to get to their destination. THey also dont have the right to block traffic or to prevent other citizens from using the roads.

What part of that dont you folks understand? You all act like the protests have rights, but if your not a protester you have no rights.

Remember you have the right to free speech. But your not allowed to yell "Fire" in a theater because that incur's a cost on other citizens.

You can not have thousands gather without blocking streets and sidewalks. To expect otherwise would effectively remove our freedom to assemble. It's just part of the deal.

[Mini-Me]

Again your arguments are all founded on a bad premise: That police are justified in assaulting passive people because of something they did in the past. They are not. Police should use only the force necessary, and only as long as that amount of force is necessary. If the officer was trying to effect an arrest, he would have waited around to collect them after macing them. He did not. He just holstered his cannister and wandered off. A few minutes later, the remaining police packed up the net and left.

This is civil law enforcement, not a fucking war. Police are not justified to engage in ultra-violence the moment they see someone breaking the law, and for as long as they want after that.

This exactly. Anyone trying to justify the cop's action should ask themselves, "How many years in prison would I be facing if I acted the way the cops did in this situation?" Their higher caste status is deeply disturbing, but the way people have been brainwashed to support it is far more chilling.


You can not have thousands gather without blocking streets and sidewalks. To expect otherwise would effectively remove our freedom to assemble. It's just part of the deal.

This too.

[Zippyjuan]

Well, when the cops themselves run from whatever is being sprayed and everybody else hauls ass or hits the deck, it's pretty safe to assume a chemical agent was sprayed.

We can't tell by whom.

[Anti Federalist]

We can't tell by whom.

I'll admit to not following this thread as closely as I should, since others are making the case in an excellent way. (I can't believe some of you people are defending the cop's actions in this)

But hasn't it been confirmed that it was, in fact, a NYPD Lieutenant?

Even if it's not been made completely clear, do you think just any ordinary Mundane could have done that, to the point of over-spray on the cops, and just wandered off?

In NYC? Where it's illegal to carry a rubber knife? And none of those cops made an arrest?

No, clearly, whoever did it was a cop of some sort.

[kylejack]

We can't tell by whom.
Sure we can, here's the slow motion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TZ05rWx1pig#!

[Aldanga]

And everybody just stands around and watches.

If they had opened fire on these people, everybody would have done the same thing.

Just another day in Amerika.

Looks like a public sidewalk, isn't there something about "peaceably assembling" and "redress of grievances" written down somewhere?
If a cop did something like that to a lady I was with, I can't help but think I would do my hardest to beat his face in, and probably get shot in the process. I don't give a shit what title he holds. If you act violently toward another without provocation, I'm gonna get pissed.

Still, peaceful response can work wonders. It is the best path, but it's not easy.

[devil21]

We can't tell by whom.

Sources in the media are claiming it's an NYPD cop named Tony Bologna. Yep, that's supposedly his name. There's a link to gawker about it a page or two back.

[Zippyjuan]

Sure we can, here's the slow motion.

Thank you. Yes, I see it now. At full speed, I could not see for sure.

[AFPVet]

I'll admit to not following this thread as closely as I should, since others are making the case in an excellent way. (I can't believe some of you people are defending the cop's actions in this)

But hasn't it been confirmed that it was, in fact, a NYPD Lieutenant?

Even if it's not been made completely clear, do you think just any ordinary Mundane could have done that, to the point of over-spray on the cops, and just wandered off?

In NYC? Where it's illegal to carry a rubber knife? And none of those cops made an arrest?

No, clearly, whoever did it was a cop of some sort.

... and the rest of those cops were just standing around watching that thug commit battery by chemical irritant on a passive resistant female. None of them had the balls to even question the action. That is seriously screwed up. I just hope that the victim made a complaint and thought about seeking legal action.

[pooflinger1488]

The cop who pepper sprayed them is named Tony Bologna. You can call 2123340611 and voice your opinion regarding his suspension/termination from the NYPD. This is according to a live feed from the Occupy Wall Street website.

[dannno]

I heard he meant to reach for his gun, but accidentally grabbed his pepper spray instead.

[jtstellar]

and you're protesting wall street instead of washington why..? because there are no honest business or firms on wall street so you need to also obstruct businesses of smaller operations, like the stores you're standing right next to whose customer flow you're obstructing? or is it because obama is in the white house and women's support ratio is like what, 3 to 1?

[pcosmar]

and you're protesting wall street instead of washington why..? because there are no honest business or firms on wall street so you need to also obstruct businesses of smaller operations, like the stores you're standing right next to whose customer flow you're obstructing? or is it because obama is in the white house and women's support ratio is like what, 3 to 1?

I heard that restaurants in the area were doing good business.
These folks are not violent (the police are) They are not preventing anyone from doing business.

I have had mixed feelings about this from the beginning,,still do.
Wall Street was targeted as the Center of Corruption in this country.
Much of the Corruption in D.C has it's roots on Wall Street. Most of the anti-capitalist sentiment is from confusing Corporatism with Capitalism.
These people (most of them) have never seen a free market. They see bailouts and market manipulation. They see politicians going to the highest bidder. They see endless wars for profits and a declining dollar at home.

They may not understand the solutions, but they do see the problems.

[kylejack]

Same cop did it a second time that day:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-eTi5-qNgA

[affa]

hope he loses his badge over this. doubt it will ever happen.

[AFPVet]

He's a serial sprayer....

[kylejack]

One woman got sprayed in both incidents. The district attorney, the Civilian Complaint Review Board, and internal affairs have all opened investigations following discovery of the second incident.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/sep/28/occupy-wall-street-anthony-bologna?newsfeed=true

[devil21]

Stick his ass in Gen Pop at Rikers and see how bad he is without his little can of spray.

[V-rod]

The Policeman want the city to keep paying for their bloated budget (Swat tanks, etc) and the protestors want to confiscate the wealth from all the rich people to continue increasing government spending.


You would think these two groups would want to work together more.