Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

[Rael]

MISSION VIEJO (CBS) — An Orange County couple has been ordered to stop holding a Bible study in their home on the grounds that the meeting violates a city ordinance as a “church” and not as a private gathering.

Homeowners Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, were fined $300 earlier this month for holding what city officials called “a regular gathering of more than three people”.

That type of meeting would require a conditional use permit as defined by the city, according to Pacific Justice Institute (PJI), the couple’s legal representation.

The Fromms also reportedly face subsequent fines of $500 per meeting for any further “religious gatherings” in their home, according to PJI.

“We’re just gathering and enjoying each other’s company and fellowship. And we enjoy studying God’s word.” Stephanie Fromm told CBS2.

After city officials rejected the Fromms’ appeal, PJI, which represents other Bible study participants, will appeal the decision to the California Superior Court in Orange County.

“This is also about a city trying to get a family to pay fees – to pay fees and pay money to them – just to be able to have friends over to read the Bible,” attorney Brad Dacus of PJI told CBS2.

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.

“The Fromm case further involves regular meetings on Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons with up to 50 people, with impacts on the residential neighborhood on street access and parking,” City Attorney Omar Sandoval said.

The city of San Juan Capistrano was founded as a mission in the late 1700s by Catholic priest Junipero Serra, who established a local chapel that remains the oldest standing building in California.

Officials with San Juan Capistrano did not respond to requests for comment.

[Rael]

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[Acala]

There is already a thread on this.

It was, in fact, a neighbor complaint about the Fromms that got the City involved. So this is not a case of government trying to stifle religious freedom. It is a case of a neighbor dispute and the City was pulled in as a weapon.

Also, these little Bible study groups involve up to fifty people. Imagine your next door neighbor bringing fifty of his closest friends over to his house every sunday morning.

I'm not supporting zoning laws. Just giving another side of the story.

[oyarde]

The fine is oppressive , anything more than $20 for a zoning infraction is unacceptable .

[sirgonzo420]

There is already a thread on this.

It was, in fact, a neighbor complaint about the Fromms that got the City involved. So this is not a case of government trying to stifle religious freedom. It is a case of a neighbor dispute and the City was pulled in as a weapon.

Also, these little Bible study groups involve up to fifty people. Imagine your next door neighbor bringing fifty of his closest friends over to his house every sunday morning.

I'm not supporting zoning laws. Just giving another side of the story.

So?

Freedom is inconvenient, but for me, still more than worth the price.

[Acala]

So?

Freedom is inconvenient.

Not defending zoning laws. I oppose them. Just saying that this is not a case of the government swooping in trying to snuff out Christianity. It is, instead, the very common case of a dispute between neighbors that ends up with one of them calling in the government as a weapon. Violation of property rights? Yup. Government initiative to supress religion? Nope.

[jkr]

SO NO FREEDOM to assemble?

got it

[pcosmar]

“This is also about a city trying to get a family to pay fees – to pay fees and pay money to them – just to be able to have friends over to read the Bible,” attorney Brad Dacus of PJI told CBS2.

Neighbors have written letters to the city in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings, according to PJI.



Perhaps one PITA neighbor pushing this shit.

I would just rename them. Call them a political action committee meetings.
Call them anything other than a religious group and shut the persecution down.

"it's not a church, it's a PAC." or a Garden Club. or a neighborhood watch meeting.
;)

[sirgonzo420]

Not defending zoning laws. I oppose them. Just saying that this is not a case of the government swooping in trying to snuff out Christianity. It is, instead, the very common case of a dispute between neighbors that ends up with one of them calling in the government as a weapon. Violation of property rights? Yup. Government initiative to supress religion? Nope.

I appreciate your clarification as well as your initial post bringing to light the specifics of the situation.

I agree with your assessment.

A free society is not a "problem-free" society, and disputes between neighbors are best handled between the neighbors themselves.

[oyarde]

Perhaps one PITA neighbor pushing this shit.

I would just rename them. Call them a political action committee meetings.
Call them anything other than a religious group and shut the persecution down. I like it :) , political action meeting !

[Acala]

I looked at the ordinance in question. The provision being applied to religious organizations in this case also applies to ALL non-profit organizations. The ordinance actually gives religious organizations and non-profits MORE leeway than other non-residential uses. This is just zoning law doing what zoning law ALWAYS does - specify allowed uses by area. This is a residential area. Uses are limited to residential uses. Exceptions require going through a process that, among other things, typically involves neighbor input. If you live in a city you almost certainly have similar laws.

I oppose zoning laws on general principle, not on First Amendment grounds. I think I should be able to build a slaughter house on my property just as easily as a church.

[oyarde]

I looked at the ordinance in question. The provision being applied to religious organizations in this case also applies to ALL non-profit organizations. The ordinance actually gives religious organizations and non-profits MORE leeway than other non-residential uses. This is just zoning law doing what zoning law ALWAYS does - specify allowed uses by area. This is a residential area. Uses are limited to residential uses. Exceptions require going through a process that, among other things, typically involves neighbor input. If you live in a city you almost certainly have similar laws.

I oppose zoning laws on general principle, not on First Amendment grounds. I think I should be able to build a slaughter house on my property just as easily as a church. Yeah , but the amount of the fine is ridiculous ! I do like the idea of a church and a slaughterhouse .

[Acala]

Yeah , but the amount of the fine is ridiculous ! I do like the idea of a church and a slaughterhouse .

No point in letting the animal sacrifice go to waste!

[LibForestPaul]

There is already a thread on this.

It was, in fact, a neighbor complaint about the Fromms that got the City involved. So this is not a case of government trying to stifle religious freedom. It is a case of a neighbor dispute and the City was pulled in as a weapon.

Also, these little Bible study groups involve up to fifty people. Imagine your next door neighbor bringing fifty of his closest friends over to his house every sunday morning.

I'm not supporting zoning laws. Just giving another side of the story.

Then go to court, get a jury to award damages.

If I have a large italian family that I gather every sunday at my home for breakfast, do I need a permit as well, should I need one?

[Icymudpuppy]

Just another reason not to live in a city.

[Bordillo]

do bars need this permit for monday night football

[mrsat_98]

The Fromms also reportedly face subsequent fines of $500 per meeting for any further “religious gatherings” in their home, according to PJI.



Phuck em have the party in the yard.