Environment, resource depletion and population expansion

[febo]

Pressing issues Paul's positions have not evolved to properly address:
- Environment: The Earth needs to be declared a Person.
- resource and energy delpetion: the growth economy must end.
- Population expansion: we're hitting the very steepest part of this curve very soon. The issue affects the first world too.
These areas are no less important than the economic crisis.
Massive changes in direction are necessary and desired. The main word is revolution (love can wait).

[gerryb]

Environment: there is no better protection for the environment than private property, contract law, and good courts protecting private property from intrusion/pollution by neighbors
Resource: libertarianism allows resources to be allocated most efficiently for the benefit of everyone. The market will sort it out and solutions to scarcity will be developed if allowed by limited control and coercion.
Population expansion: They have been saying this for more than 60 years. It falls mostly under resources. Hunger is not caused by not having enough food produced in the world, but by mis-allocation of resources and government corruption.

[febo]

Does this kind of blind faith in "the market" need to be examined?
Markets are determined by mass messaging - powerful techniques used on the people that "the market" can't possibly influence or resist, since the market itself is under control.

Please, also watch this - all 8 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

[raider4paul]

Uh oh... Someone's been believing the Agenda 21 propaganda.

[Harald]

Febo. Overpopulation won't happen. As societies become richer fertility rate drops. Current prediction is that population will hit maximum at around 2050 and will start slowly decreasing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/World-Population-1800-2100.png

[febo]

Febo. Overpopulation won't happen. As societies become richer fertility rate drops. Current prediction is that population will hit maximum at around 2050 and will start slowly decreasing.[/url]
Societies cannot carry on getting richer due to the decline in energy returned from enrgy invested.
And in any case we are too far up the exponential curve now for anything to matter.
Watch the video.
and listen to Nicole Foss
http://sheffield.indymedia.org.uk/2010/06/453356.html[

[Harald]

Febo, with fertility rate hovering near 2.1 children per couple, population is stagnant. You don't have to worry about exponential curve.

Short term, there are plenty of fossil fuels to go around.

Long term, we have a sun that sends us energy 24/7 and is supposed to last for very many years.

If you look at the fertility, there is a strong correlation between the wealth of a country and couple fertility, as countries becoming wealthier, fertility is dropping to below replacement rate of 2.1 .

Longterm we probably need to be concerned about under population if lazy couples won't oblige to produce at least 2.1 chidren each. ;-)

[febo]

Febo, with fertility rate hovering near 2.1 children per couple, population is stagnant. You don't have to worry about exponential curve.

Short term, there are plenty of fossil fuels to go around.

Long term, we have a sun that sends us energy 24/7 and is supposed to last for very many years.

If you look at the fertility, there is a strong correlation between the wealth of a country and couple fertility, as countries becoming wealthier, fertility is dropping to below replacement rate of 2.1 .

Longterm we probably need to be concerned about under population if lazy couples won't oblige to produce at least 2.1 chidren each. ;-)

Sorry guv but you are wrong wrong wrong

[Elfshadow]

Sorry guv but you are wrong wrong wrong

Examples?

[WilliamC]

tag for later comment.

Brief answer, we need more room!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_gU-jdHqxM

[febo]

Examples?

Watch the video and listen to the Nicole Foss lecture. She's also on YouTube. Just as RP was once ignored, so right now are important messages ignored.

[hard@work]

Markets are organic by nature. They extend and grow within an ecosystem. Protection of an ecosystem has to come from property rights. It is violation of property rights that destroy more sustainable ecosystems than any other cause. For capital businesses can cause havoc to their neighbors under the existing system. This is intolerable. The state allows this, and the state itself is the largest violator. The US government is the world's largest polluter. Not the US industry or consumer sectors. The US government. Recognition of this fact and the dismantling of what enables these travesties are imperative to helping the world and the people on it create self sustaining ecospheres.

Government manages the waste system. They are incompetent, and allow for too much spoilage. If they were not involved the costs for our current system of distribution and product storage would skyrocket. The free market would naturally bring the people back to a system of proper distribution and storage. Primarily local, primarily organic in nature, almost 100% recyclable.

National or supra-national regulations will not work. The realities of regulatory capture must be addressed. Without regulatory capture being the headlining topic on ecological discussions, all discussions are completely moot and irrelevant.

Period.

[WilliamC]

Does this kind of blind faith in "the market" need to be examined?
Markets are determined by mass messaging - powerful techniques used on the people that "the market" can't possibly influence or resist, since the market itself is under control.

Please, also watch this - all 8 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

Without having watched the video you do have a valid criticism of our current market with respect to mass-merchandising and advertising and such, it is very much manipulated and I doubt most people (maybe myself included) realize how much.

But I propose that this is simply a reflection of the monopoly that conventional media (TV, Radio, Newspaper, ect) has had for nearly 100 years and the deliberate targeting of this media by governmental and quasi-governmental agents as a means to control the political agenda in the USA.

The internet is overturning the old paradigm of this type of media control much as the invention of the printing press overturned the Middle Age paradigm of the making of books being regulated by monks of the Catholic Church in Europe.

I'll try to watch some of the video and have a more informed reply later, because I do think that the concept of a 'free-market' needs to be elaborated upon, and a large part of this is dependent upon the participants having free access to information and knowledge that doesn't come from those trying to sell you their wares collaborating with government to tell you what's supposed to be 'normal'.

[Harald]

Need more room?

Modern agriculture produces more crops per unit of land then before.
Population is expected to top off at 2050 at around 10 billion.
Plenty of land to grow food even at the current yields.

We can stick entire world population inside of the 48 states of america and still have less population density than Singapore.

[WilliamC]

Need more room?

Modern agriculture produces more crops per unit of land then before.
Population is expected to top off at 2050 at around 10 billion.
Plenty of land to grow food even at the current yields.

We can stick entire world population inside of the 48 states of america and still have less population density than Singapore.

It's still not enough.

What's different now is that there is no where left to go.

No unclaimed, empty land.

No frontier.

Well, except space, but so far it's too expensive to get there.

[hard@work]

Maybe we can all live in doughnut cities with robot marxism.

[HeyArchie]

Liberal-led scare tactics.

[noneedtoaggress]

THE CHILDREN!!!!

WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OVLbztgyHEk/TXAp-ga_bxI/AAAAAAAAAJU/C0mVo7T1Bvo/s1600/village-of-the-damned.jpg

[HeyArchie]

THE CHILDREN!!!!

WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OVLbztgyHEk/TXAp-ga_bxI/AAAAAAAAAJU/C0mVo7T1Bvo/s1600/village-of-the-damned.jpg
:eek:

[Harald]

Febo:

I glimpse thru the first video and the guy is spending 8 minutes with several examples of why "exponential growth of things cannot grow forever".
He is absolutely correct about it, but there is nothing particularly interesting about that statement.

Does he disagree with estimates of population growth?
Does he disagree with relations between health care, wealth and fertility in humans and stabilizing effect it has on population growth?

If you watched the video, please distill it for us into a few points so that we can have fun with them (or get convinced about this coming catastrophy)

[NJames]

Population expansion: They have been saying this for more than 60 years.It's been coming up, from time to time, for centuries.http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/troyilium/qt/Overpopulation.htm

[gerryb]

It's been coming up, from time to time, for centuries.http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/troyilium/qt/Overpopulation.htm

Haha, true. I'm thinking more modern times, green revolution in farming etc.

[NJames]

I would suggest that people interest in this subject take a look at The Sustainability of Human Progress (http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/index.html) a webpage written by John McCarthy, professor emeritus of computer science, Stanford university.

[Revolution9]

Pressing issues Paul's positions have not evolved to properly address:
- Environment: The Earth needs to be declared a Person.
- resource and energy delpetion: the growth economy must end.
- Population expansion: we're hitting the very steepest part of this curve very soon. The issue affects the first world too.
These areas are no less important than the economic crisis.
Massive changes in direction are necessary and desired. The main word is revolution (love can wait).

If you gave everybody on earth one square yard to stand in they could fit within greater Houston city limits. Portable kilowatt power based on overunity or high efficiency solar can change where you can live. If you need water they have appliances that will collect gallons from the air even in a desert daily. Cities are the problem. Spread the demographic out.

Rev9

Rev9