Mace In Your Face! Cops Pepper Spray Unruly 8 Year Old

[Rael]

Someday kids in Lakewood, Colo. will become crotchety old men who complain about how kids have it easy, saying "Why, in my day, police used to come and pepper spray second graders if they got out of line."

According to 9 News Colorado, police caused some controversy in February by subduing an 8-year-old second grader via the non-lethal yet possibly harmful weapon.

Police say the kid was shouting profanities, climbing school equipment, spitting and pulling wood trim off of walls to try to stab teachers.

The school district's superintendent defended the officers' actions:

“
"He was violent, he was verbal, he was abusive. The police were very thoughtful and thorough about the actions that they took."

”

In an interview Monday, the boy said he "kinda deserved it."

Due to mental health concerns, the boy was transferred to a school for kids with behavioral problems.

http://consumerist.com/2011/04/police-pepper-spray-unruly-8-year-old-at-school.html

[Cutlerzzz]

He fought the law and the law won.

But really though, that cop ought to be fired. How difficult is it to stop an 8 year old? This reminds me of the epsiode of South Park where the kids get some 5 year old falsely arrested for arsonry, and the cops struggled to detain him. Tried looking for a youtube but could not find the video I am refering to.

[eduardo89]

Holy shit, what a pussy cop. If I were the kid's parent I would sue.

[asurfaholic]

The problem wasn't the kid - the problem was the parents.

This is the direct result of people not wanting to discipline their kids. A few good spankings before things got this bad would have likely prevented the kid from doing this. Spanking when a kid has no understanding of parental authority, or respect, is a valuable last resort tool that will leave no permanent pain or damage, but will shock the kid into sense.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you do not have the balls to punish you kid and teach them right from wrong. This is what happens when you leave it to the state to teach your kid.

[romeno182]

The problem wasn't the kid - the problem was the parents.

This is the direct result of people not wanting to discipline their kids. A few good spankings before things got this bad would have likely prevented the kid from doing this. Spanking when a kid has no understanding of parental authority, or respect, is a valuable last resort tool that will leave no permanent pain or damage, but will shock the kid into sense.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you do not have the balls to punish you kid and teach them right from wrong. This is what happens when you leave it to the state to teach your kid.

you want us to be perfect slaves? FU

[asurfaholic]

you want us to be perfect slaves? FU

Um no.

Exactly the opposite. I want us to personally responsible for our own actions, and that includes the upbringing of our kids.

-rep you for the "FU" part, completely uncalled for.

[Madly_Sane]

The problem wasn't the kid - the problem was the parents.

This is the direct result of people not wanting to discipline their kids. A few good spankings before things got this bad would have likely prevented the kid from doing this. Spanking when a kid has no understanding of parental authority, or respect, is a valuable last resort tool that will leave no permanent pain or damage, but will shock the kid into sense.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you do not have the balls to punish you kid and teach them right from wrong. This is what happens when you leave it to the state to teach your kid.

+rep

You hit it square on the nose. My cousins have little upbringing, but as soon as they get a good spanking, they snap right back into 'good little child' mode. I've never had a problem with spankings as a last resort method of discipline. But, this debate isn't for here. We're here to debate whether or not the use of mace was justified or not.
Maybe the cop shouldn't have maced him. He could have restrained him without the use of pepper spray. I doubt the kid said he deserved it, but he did deserve some sort of punishment other than a little ISS/OSS. I can say from firsthand experience that those two do the exact opposite of solve problems. They only create more problems and create a false sense of 'I can get away with anything' when they just get sent to a room or home for a day or two. They think of it as a way to get out of class.

[asurfaholic]

Definitely not justified using mace on a 8 yo.

[osan]

Police say the kid was shouting profanities

Those brave, brave cops, placing themselves in such danger! And for ME! Oh how I love them!



"He was violent, he was verbal, he was abusive. The police were very thoughtful and thorough about the actions that they took."


What in hell do they teach these doughnut addicts?

There are literally thousands of techniques for restraining ADULT human beings. The simplest joint lock will take care of any eight year old one cares to produce for demonstration. With proper application I can lay such a child on his back, ever so gently and slowly, all the time with the brat in fear of lifelong maiming injury if he gets on my bad side. This, not because of any great pain being infused into his disobedient carcass, but through the "body knowledge" that it is but a small tweak away and that he has therefore better do as he is told in precise and snappy fashion.

The casual use of OC in such cases is prima facie evidence of police cowardice and lassitude. Too much work to lock up a brat tossing a tantrum. Too scary... ooooooo.... Why not just use the service pistol and never have to worry about Johnny Baines again?

The community should be rising up and demanding this pig's head on the end of a pole.

"To Serve And Protect..." Sure, but whom? Whom do they serve? Whom do they protect? I find it most interesting that this is NEVER posted on their vehicles. Wonder why that is... Hmmmm...

[specsaregood]

This is the direct result of people not wanting to discipline their kids. A few good spankings before things got this bad would have likely prevented the kid from doing this. Spanking when a kid has no understanding of parental authority, or respect, is a valuable last resort tool that will leave no permanent pain or damage, but will shock the kid into sense.


Indeed, physically assaulting a kid is a sure fire way to teach them to "respect" you. And in turn they'll learn that assaulting others is a sure fire way to get them to "respect" them as well. After all, you don't deserve respect unless you physically assault others.

[speciallyblend]

easy solution just make sure the kid can't have kids and sterlize the parents!! 8yr old kids are as worse as neo-cons/gop est. Cops can shoot to kill dogs but not kids, sigh what has the world come to!! kids are the biggest deterrent to having kids!! I suggest people get dogs instead of kids,less headaches. outlaw kids!!!kids are a gateway to drugs and alcohol!! i got stats to prove it:)

[brushfire]

Spanking.. Its a punishment of last resort, and one I believe to be effective in younger ages. Of course, the whole spank your kid when they're 6MO is absolutely ridiculous (even before the age of 2 IMO ), as is when they are 8 years old. In life, there are consequences, and discipline through corporal punishment is perfectly healthy IMO. Our children get lots of love, and to be honest, I cant even remember the last time a spanking was given.

I think there are other environmental factors that go with what some of the anti-spanking folks are talking about. In fact, I'm not a big fan of excessive sensory deprivation (aka timeouts) either.

The important thing in either philosophy is to take the extra time with your children, explain the reasoning behind why they are being disciplined. If you find yourself angry while spanking a child, chances are that you are doing it for the wrong reasons...

Back on topic - yea, the non-lethal weapons are giving police/society a false sense of security. We're seeing them used more frequently now, and there have been consequences as a result. Still, and not to advocate the action, what is one to do when an 8 year old is flailing sharp objects and is a harm to them selves and others? You know, if a teacher lays a hand on that kid, they likely face a law suit - so what is the best recourse for such a situation?

[speciallyblend]

Spanking.. Its a punishment of last resort, and one I believe to be effective in younger ages. Of course, the whole spank your kid when they're 6MO is absolutely ridiculous (even before the age of 2 IMO ), as is when they are 8 years old. In life, there are consequences, and discipline through corporal punishment is perfectly healthy IMO. Our children get lots of love, and to be honest, I cant even remember the last time a spanking was given.

I think there are other environmental factors that go with what some of the anti-spanking folks are talking about. In fact, I'm not a big fan of excessive sensory deprivation (aka timeouts) either.

The important thing in either philosophy is to take the extra time with your children, explain the reasoning behind why they are being disciplined. If you find yourself angry while spanking a child, chances are that you are doing it for the wrong reasons...

Back on topic - yea, the non-lethal weapons are giving police/society a false sense of security. We're seeing them used more frequently now, and there have been consequences as a result. Still, and not to advocate the action, what is one to do when an 8 year old is flailing sharp objects and is a harm to them selves and others? You know, if a teacher lays a hand on that kid, they likely face a law suit - so what is the best recourse for such a situation?

i agree with you, though i found the best way around this? Is to adopt an 18yr old over having kids. Then when they act up kick them the f out of the house;):) bottom line i was raised around love and if i screwed up. I got a spanking. I didn't act up after that:) I say we use this same tactic with neo-cons and gop est at gop meetings just spank the hell out of them until they straighten up:)

[moostraks]

The problem wasn't the kid - the problem was the parents.

This is the direct result of people not wanting to discipline their kids. A few good spankings before things got this bad would have likely prevented the kid from doing this. Spanking when a kid has no understanding of parental authority, or respect, is a valuable last resort tool that will leave no permanent pain or damage, but will shock the kid into sense.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you do not have the balls to punish you kid and teach them right from wrong. This is what happens when you leave it to the state to teach your kid.

Effective discipline depends on the child's temperament, there is no absolute. Your summary assumptions without knowing all the details is a bit arrogant,imo. CPS is also being used as a very effective threat on parents to cause them to hesitate to use corporal punishment. If they did discipline physically then they would be blamed that said discipline caused this behavior. Some children just know how to manipulate and don't care what kind of theatrics it takes to get what they want. Since the boy responded as he did about deserving it, I would guess he is manipulative. He and his family will most likely find themselves scrutinized by mental health workers for a lengthy period.

*eta he is most likely to be diagnosed as oppositional defiant disorder and will proceed to be placed on the medication train to proper respect for government authority while his parents are berated and belittled and punished for failing to respond to the child's special needs...

[brushfire]

i agree with you, though i found the best way around this? Is to adopt an 18yr old over having kids. Then when they act up kick them the f out of the house;):) bottom line i was raised around love and if i screwed up. I got a spanking. I didn't act up after that:) I say we use this same tactic with neo-cons and gop est at gop meetings just spank the hell out of them until they straighten up:)

Yea, there's some moments of tough love. I had one that I distinctly recall when I stopped reminding my son to close doors by the handle (as not to pinch his fingers). I must have told him 1000 times prior, but either through defiance or forgetfulness he'd continue to close the door the way he wanted to. The day came when he slammed 3 fingers in our 6 panel door. While applying ice I reminded him of why he needs to use the handle... I deliberately let him make a painful mistake, which made me feel bad, but I'm hoping it pays off by letting him make the little mistakes now with the idea that he'll listen when it comes to more important advice. I'm hoping that this will carry out, at least until my children are teens - when they will know everything, and not need parental guidance :/

[coastie]

Those brave, brave cops, placing themselves in such danger! And for ME! Oh how I love them!




What in hell do they teach these doughnut addicts?

There are literally thousands of techniques for restraining ADULT human beings. The simplest joint lock will take care of any eight year old one cares to produce for demonstration. With proper application I can lay such a child on his back, ever so gently and slowly, all the time with the brat in fear of lifelong maiming injury if he gets on my bad side. This, not because of any great pain being infused into his disobedient carcass, but through the "body knowledge" that it is but a small tweak away and that he has therefore better do as he is told in precise and snappy fashion.

The casual use of OC in such cases is prima facie evidence of police cowardice and lassitude. Too much work to lock up a brat tossing a tantrum. Too scary... ooooooo.... Why not just use the service pistol and never have to worry about Johnny Baines again?

The community should be rising up and demanding this pig's head on the end of a pole.

"To Serve And Protect..." Sure, but whom? Whom do they serve? Whom do they protect? I find it most interesting that this is NEVER posted on their vehicles. Wonder why that is... Hmmmm...



I've been OC (pepper) sprayed before for training, been over sprayed several times, (Mace is a chemical and has been outlawed for years)........in a nut shell, I'd be in jail right now if that happened to my 8 yr old daughter, but I'd feel better.:mad:


The pepper spray is hit or miss, it degrades substantially over short periods of time, and some people it doesn't even effect at all, even with a fresh can.:eek: HOWEVER- my point is, it does effect most people, and I seriously felt like my face was in a frier for over 4 hours after I was initially sprayed. On a fuckin 8 yr old!!!???:mad::mad::mad:

ETA: Come to think about it, we trained for situations like this, like an encounter with someone(adult) with a mental disease. Spraying would not get you a passing grade. When your in that mindset(as this eight yr old clearly is, wonder why he missed his Ritalin that morning?;)), spraying tends to make these sorts go BALLISTIC. The pain, combined with not being able to see or breathe so several seconds would make anybody panic, these types it's full blown retard-strength shit you have to deal with now.

Rushed, brute force would've solved that little shit in 5 seconds.:toady::D

[Invi]

Indeed, physically assaulting a kid is a sure fire way to teach them to "respect" you. And in turn they'll learn that assaulting others is a sure fire way to get them to "respect" them as well. After all, you don't deserve respect unless you physically assault others.

Agreed, based upon experience in my family. My youngest brother and I were never spanked. My 5 other siblings were. This is not to say we always behaved differently, but my mother would not lay a hand on me for fear of my father. They were separated. My mother would spank my other siblings when they misbehaved. Their behavior got progessively worse.
They are all teenagers or older now. 14+.
Can you guess which ones tend to act up, and take out their frustration in violent ways?


On topic: What they did was completely uncalled for.

edit: Letting a child make his or her own mistakes is quite a bit different than spanking. With spanking, you, the parent, are delivering the pain. The child may respect you, but may also fear you.
A child who shuts his fingers in a door or something similar is hurt by himself or the door. He knows it is not Mommy or Daddy's fault, and that no one intentionally caused him that hurt.

[brushfire]

Agreed, based upon experience in my family. My youngest brother and I were never spanked. My 5 other siblings were. This is not to say we always behaved differently, but my mother would not lay a hand on me for fear of my father. They were separated. My mother would spank my other siblings when they misbehaved. Their behavior got progessively worse.
They are all teenagers or older now. 14+.
Can you guess which ones tend to act up, and take out their frustration in violent ways?


Not that I have the answers, but do you think their age and state of development were affected by your parent's divorce? Might that be an example of "other environmental factors"?

[Invi]

Not that I have the answers, but do you think their age and state of development were affected by your parent's divorce? Might that be an example of "other environmental factors"?

It is possible. Mind you, my mother separated from all of our fathers at one point or another. Each time wen we were all very young.

My mother and father separated for good when I was 1.5yrs and my oldest brother was about 5 months. I went with my father. My brother stayed with her.
My 2nd oldest brother was the product of rape.
My oldest sister was an infant when mom and her dad separated. She stayed with her father and his family.
The next sister was an accident like the rest of us, but mom never married him. She stayed with mom.
The next sister was the only planned baby, and she still ended up splitting withe the father after a couple of years.

My other brother is from my dad and first stepmother.

We have all gone through multiple marriages and divorces of our parents, starting at a young age, with the exception of my last brother, who was 9 or so when his mom and my dad split. (edit: he has still gone trough all of our dad's divorces.)

These are only blood relatives. I could also include the attitude problems of countless step-brothers and -sisters who were also spanked.

Part of this could be due to instability. Perhaps my brother and I are just lucky.
Either way, I have no intention of inflicting pain on a child just to get him or her to see things my way and do as I say.

[Wesker1982]

the problem wasn't the wife - the problem was the husband.

This is the direct result of husbands not wanting to discipline their wives. A few good beatings before things got this bad would have likely prevented the wife from doing this. Assaulting when a wife has no understanding of husband's authority, or respect, is a valuable last resort tool that will leave no permanent pain or damage, but will shock the wife into sense.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you do not have the balls to punish you wife and teach them right from wrong.

fyp. Seriously, the same stupid and barbaric excuses were used to justify beating women, beating slaves, etc. Just because you might have been unjustly assaulted as a child, does not mean you have to ignore the reality that what your parents did was wrong. I don't know wtf makes people think that hundreds of years old parenting strategies are the only ones worth considering. Yep, people sure have advanced a lot, but regardless of how much we have learned and advanced in all of these other areas of human development, the parenting strategies used by people hundreds of years ago obviously cannot be improved upon.

Spanking is lazy and ignorant parenting. It sure is a lot easier to assault your kid than it is to learn about alternative discipline strategies (this may be a shocker, but they DO EXIST, which destroys the "oh but we have to!" argument). "I care so much about my kid that I am willing to assault them, but I don't quite care enough to pick up a book or do a 5 minute google search..."

Here is a start for the parents who have the energy to use physical aggression but are too lazy to use a keyboard:

Harmful Effects of Spanking (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=harmful+effects+of+spanking)

Non-Violent Parenting (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=non-violent+parenting)

Alternatives to Spanking (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alternatives+to+spanking)

Ten Reasons Not to Hit Your Kids (http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNRfflggBg&feature=channel_video_title

[asurfaholic]

Indeed, physically assaulting a kid is a sure fire way to teach them to "respect" you. And in turn they'll learn that assaulting others is a sure fire way to get them to "respect" them as well. After all, you don't deserve respect unless you physically assault others.

I really think you are missing the point. Its not assault. Its punishment. If verbal reasoning doesn't work, then you have to move on. A child needs to fear the consequences of breaking rules. It teaches them to respect rules.

[specsaregood]

//

[Steve-in-NY]

The cop was wrong to use pepper spray, but the cop was also screwed no matter what he did.
Cant grab the kid, then its "COP GRABS AND CUFFS 8 YEAR OLD" and all that. - You know he'd have to cuff the kid because if the kid was that out of control, he would have had to be restrained.

Im not sure what I would do if I was a cop in that situation.
Maybe get the parents down there, tell them to control their kid, and maybe fine them for the damage the kids behavior caused or ask if the school would like to sue for the damages? Something like that?

I bet something in that ballpark would have been effective. This way the parents can choose how to (or even if they want to) discipline their kid.

[asurfaholic]

I'm not some anti-spanking nazi; but think if it is used, it should be used in very limited amounts and as an absolute last resort.
I think you missed my point. 1. It is assault. 2. resorting to using spanking IS teaching your children to use physical violence to punish or when you are upset. It doesn't teach them to "respect" rules, it teaches them that if they break the rules they will have physical violence used against them. That isn't teaching "respect" that is teaching fear.

Also when you put it this way, it is a bit scary:

It doesn't take "balls" to use physical violence on a child. If anything, it takes more "balls" to be calm and look for a better approach.

The other day I saw a woman with 2 young boys, they were fighting with each other. Mom told them to stop, and separated them. One. Of the boys then punched mom in the stomach. She didn't do anything, just acted like it didn't happen.

I would say she needs to gro some balls and bend that little rascal over her knee right there.

I totally agree with you that it should be done sparingly, and only as a last resort. Should be followed up with explanation and all. I do not advocate beating your kid every time he steps out of line.

I also think spanking shouldn't be done when parent is angry, or else you are teaching that violence is ok when you are angry. That's the last thing a kid needs to learn.

At the end of the day, each parent is responsible for raising their kid how they see fit. If spanking isn't your thing, then more power to you. If your kid is well behaved and doesn't have to get tazed to learn consequences for bad behavior, then good job.

In this case, the parent obviously failed hard to teach discipline to the little brat. As a consequence she turned parenting responsibilities to the school, as a result the cops got involved, and her kid got pepper sprayed at the ripe age of 8.

Also, almost everyone I know has been spanked as a kid, and they turned out good. Those who tell me their parents didn't spank or let them "do whatever" seem to live a rockier life. Debt, drugs, out of control kids. Don't flame me if you are one of those kids who never got spanked and turned out perfect. I know spanking isn't right for every situation, but I have to disagree with people who hold the almost religious belief that spanking is wrong, therefore anyone who does it is bad or should go to jail.

[specsaregood]

In this case, the parent obviously failed hard to teach discipline to the little brat. As a consequence she turned parenting responsibilities to the school, as a result the cops got involved, and her kid got pepper sprayed at the ripe age of 8.


See, I wouldn't say that and it certainly isn't obvious. There are a number of reasons the kid could be acting out and they might have nothing to do with not teaching discipline. Chemical imbalances is a very real possibility. I've known people that had children that were nightmares and no amount of "teaching discipline" would help. They were simply unable to control themselves.....until their parents put them on a proper diet and "presto" the behavior problems disappeared. Similar problems can exist due to psychological issues/trauma.

What I'm saying is, don't be so quick to jump to the "they must not have spanked", "not taught respect", "not disciplined". As that is not necessarily true. FWIW: my mom teaches at a school that still performs paddling (if the parent explicitly requests it as a punishment tool). she says those kids are still some of the worst behaved...

[enjerth]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/alaskas-hot-sauce-mom-sentenced-years-probation-child/story?id=14408795

Note to moms: a couple of drops of hot sauce on the tongue is child abuse and it can lead to 3 years probation. But pepper spray in the face is a perfectly fine alternative for disciplining an unruly child.

[asurfaholic]

See, I wouldn't say that and it certainly isn't obvious. There are a number of reasons the kid could be acting out and they might have nothing to do with not teaching discipline. Chemical imbalances is a very real possibility. I've known people that had children that were nightmares and no amount of "teaching discipline" would help. They were simply unable to control themselves.....until their parents put them on a proper diet and "presto" the behavior problems disappeared. Similar problems can exist due to psychological issues/trauma.

What I'm saying is, don't be so quick to jump to the "they must not have spanked", "not taught respect", "not disciplined". As that is not necessarily true. FWIW: my mom teaches at a school that still performs paddling (if the parent explicitly requests it as a punishment tool). she says those kids are still some of the worst behaved...

Point taken.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

Another reason when I have kids I will not send them to public school.

[teacherone]

the problem wasn't the wife - the problem was the husband.

This is the direct result of husbands not wanting to discipline their wives. A few good beatings before things got this bad would have likely prevented thewife from doing this. Assaulting when a wife has no understanding of husband's authority, or respect, is a valuable last resort tool that will leave no permanent pain or damage, but will shock the wife into sense.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you do not have the balls to punish you wife and teach them right from wrong.

amazing post.

+rep

[enjerth]

fyp. Seriously, the same stupid and barbaric excuses were used to justify beating women, beating slaves, etc. Just because you might have been unjustly assaulted as a child, does not mean you have to ignore the reality that what your parents did was wrong. I don't know wtf makes people think that hundreds of years old parenting strategies are the only ones worth considering. Yep, people sure have advanced a lot, but regardless of how much we have learned and advanced in all of these other areas of human development, the parenting strategies used by people hundreds of years ago obviously cannot be improved upon.

Spanking is lazy and ignorant parenting. It sure is a lot easier to assault your kid than it is to learn about alternative discipline strategies (this may be a shocker, but they DO EXIST, which destroys the "oh but we have to!" argument). "I care so much about my kid that I am willing to assault them, but I don't quite care enough to pick up a book or do a 5 minute google search..."

Here is a start for the parents who have the energy to use physical aggression but are too lazy to use a keyboard:

Harmful Effects of Spanking (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=harmful+effects+of+spanking)

Non-Violent Parenting (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=non-violent+parenting)

Alternatives to Spanking (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alternatives+to+spanking)

Ten Reasons Not to Hit Your Kids (http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNRfflggBg&feature=channel_video_title

What a bunch of nonsense.

There is an appropriate lawful response to an unruly child (re: committing a crime), which may include using violence (for resisting arrest).

This is my legal defense, if I'm ever charged with child abuse for spanking. Try to follow along.

Does a Law Enforcement Officer have the right to forceably detain someone who is reasonably believed to have committed a crime or is about to? Does the Law Enforcement Officer have the right to use physical violence if they're resisted in detaining that person?

Does a citizen have that same right, to detain and use physical violence if absolutely necessary in response to a crime?

Do the laws concerning the destruction or defacing another's property, or public property, or of assault on another person, give any exception to the crime based on the age of the perpetrator? Does the law enforcement officer have the right to detain, even with physical violence if absolutely necessary, a child just as well as an adult?

Does a citizen have that same right, with respect to children committing crimes just as well as if it were an adult? Especially with their own children?

If law enforcement has the right, but citizens do not, then they're asking parents to call the cops every time their own child assaults them or other children, starts intentionally breaking or vandalizing things in the house, disrupts the peace, and so on. Is that what you want?

Just follow simple (GOOD) law enforcement principles, applied with compassion (compassion does NOT mean permitting unlawful behavior). If they're breaking a LAW, not just your rules, you have the legal right to detain them (send them to their room/timeout) and if they resist, respond with an appropriate level of violence to bring them into compliance (not using excessive force). What is or is not excessive force may be another legal discussion, but some violence is warranted.

If they're lying, not eating their veggies, or otherwise exercising their liberties in ways that you don't agree with but not impinging on someone else's rights, your lawful disciplinary actions probably should not include detainment (timeout) or violence.

(edit)
It's what they're going to face in the real world. Don't bring them up thinking they can get away with it.

[asurfaholic]

amazing post.

+rep

How is it amazing? This guy took what i said and twisted it in a really weird way. I dont think violence is ok. But parents should disipline their kids. Spouse abuse is terrible and is not even close to what i was saying.

[brushfire]

It is possible. Mind you, my mother separated from all of our fathers at one point or another. Each time wen we were all very young.

My mother and father separated for good when I was 1.5yrs and my oldest brother was about 5 months. I went with my father. My brother stayed with her.
My 2nd oldest brother was the product of rape.
My oldest sister was an infant when mom and her dad separated. She stayed with her father and his family.
The next sister was an accident like the rest of us, but mom never married him. She stayed with mom.
The next sister was the only planned baby, and she still ended up splitting withe the father after a couple of years.

My other brother is from my dad and first stepmother.

We have all gone through multiple marriages and divorces of our parents, starting at a young age, with the exception of my last brother, who was 9 or so when his mom and my dad split. (edit: he has still gone trough all of our dad's divorces.)

These are only blood relatives. I could also include the attitude problems of countless step-brothers and -sisters who were also spanked.

Part of this could be due to instability. Perhaps my brother and I are just lucky.
Either way, I have no intention of inflicting pain on a child just to get him or her to see things my way and do as I say.

My goodness... That's quite a wake of pain... Just the same, these things are relative... It can be a challenge sometimes to recognize what is abnormal, and what is healthy. When/if you choose to have children, you may, or may not, have some demons to deal with...just be vigilant. FWIW, I find it impressive, given the circumstances, that you have chosen to not be a victim. Good for you! I would stand by your decision not to use physical punishment...

[Invi]

My goodness... That's quite a wake of pain... Just the same, these things are relative... It can be a challenge sometimes to recognize what is abnormal, and what is healthy. When/if you choose to have children, you may, or may not, have some demons to deal with...just be vigilant. FWIW, I find it impressive, given the circumstances, that you have chosen to not be a victim. Good for you! I would stand by your decision not to use physical punishment...

Thank you for that. I guess I just never really saw the point in self-pity.

edit2: For the record, I'm pregnant. About 8 weeks or so. I'm sure it will be challenging. I'm absolutely terrified, but also looking forward to it. :)

[Wesker1982]

There is an appropriate lawful response to an unruly child (re: committing a crime), which may include using violence (for resisting arrest).


"When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." - Frederic Bastiat

If something is legal, it does not automatically make it justifiable (e.g. slavery).


Does a Law Enforcement Officer have the right to forceably detain someone who is reasonably believed to have committed a crime or is about to? Does the Law Enforcement Officer have the right to use physical violence if they're resisted in detaining that person?

Does a citizen have that same right, to detain and use physical violence if absolutely necessary in response to a crime?

Law enforcement should have no special rights.


Does the law enforcement officer have the right to detain, even with physical violence if absolutely necessary, a child just as well as an adult?


That is my point. How often does a 5 year old charge at you with a lethal weapon? You are confusing self-defense with discipline. Sure, in self-defense you could physically restrain a child who is an actual threat to your safety. I never disputed this. What I object to is violence on innocent and non-physically threatening children.


If law enforcement has the right, but citizens do not, then they're asking parents to call the cops every time their own child assaults them or other children, starts intentionally breaking or vandalizing things in the house, disrupts the peace, and so on. Is that what you want?

Again, you are confusing defense with discipline. Most of the time when for example, child 1 hits child 2, and then parent hits child 1, it is no longer defense, it is now discipline. Even in the act, it would indeed be rare where one child is hitting another and it is necessary to hit the aggressing child rather than separate them. I could't imagine walking up on two kids fighting and then finding it necessary to give the aggressing child a left hook to break it up.

[Wesker1982]

This guy took what i said and twisted it in a really weird way.

Weird to you only because hitting women is no longer acceptable but somehow hitting children is.


I dont think violence is ok.

If you hit a child, then you must.


But parents should disipline their kids.

This was not disputed. Discipline does not equal spanking. See: my first post in this thread.


Spouse abuse is terrible and is not even close to what i was saying.

The same logic you used to justify violence on kids was at one time used to justify violence against women.

[asurfaholic]

I never said beat your kid to a pulp. Jesus.... spanking does not include tying your toddler to a table and taking a baseball bat to them.

And fyi, i was physically abused by my stepdad for 10+ years. I know the difference between healthy spanks and violence.

All that aside, being that we are a liberty minded community, can we at least agree that every parent can choose how to punish their children as they see fit? Of course short of actual physical abuse, which im sure is a tricky concept for you to differentiate...

[enjerth]

...

You didn't follow. Perhaps you need to read it again.

[AFPVet]

Was this some freak of nature 6'2, 200 pound 8 year old? Come on... how much of a pussy does this cop have to be that he has to use chemical defense weapons on kids? What kind of person does that?

[heavenlyboy34]

The article gives me the impression that the kid has a history of behavioral problems. Why didn't they transfer him to the special school they mention long ago? Not doing that endangered everyone involved.

[Hospitaller]

The problem wasn't the kid - the problem was the parents.

This is the direct result of people not wanting to discipline their kids. A few good spankings before things got this bad would have likely prevented the kid from doing this. Spanking when a kid has no understanding of parental authority, or respect, is a valuable last resort tool that will leave no permanent pain or damage, but will shock the kid into sense.

This is a perfect example of what happens when you do not have the balls to punish you kid and teach them right from wrong. This is what happens when you leave it to the state to teach your kid.

If i could i would +rep you every day until i die

[Rael]

fyp. Seriously, the same stupid and barbaric excuses were used to justify beating women, beating slaves, etc. Just because you might have been unjustly assaulted as a child, does not mean you have to ignore the reality that what your parents did was wrong. I don't know wtf makes people think that hundreds of years old parenting strategies are the only ones worth considering. Yep, people sure have advanced a lot, but regardless of how much we have learned and advanced in all of these other areas of human development, the parenting strategies used by people hundreds of years ago obviously cannot be improved upon.

Spanking is lazy and ignorant parenting. It sure is a lot easier to assault your kid than it is to learn about alternative discipline strategies (this may be a shocker, but they DO EXIST, which destroys the "oh but we have to!" argument). "I care so much about my kid that I am willing to assault them, but I don't quite care enough to pick up a book or do a 5 minute google search..."

Here is a start for the parents who have the energy to use physical aggression but are too lazy to use a keyboard:

Harmful Effects of Spanking (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=harmful+effects+of+spanking)

Non-Violent Parenting (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=non-violent+parenting)

Alternatives to Spanking (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alternatives+to+spanking)

Ten Reasons Not to Hit Your Kids (http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNRfflggBg&feature=channel_video_title

+rep

[asurfaholic]

fyp. Seriously, the same stupid and barbaric excuses were used to justify beating women, beating slaves, etc. Just because you might have been unjustly assaulted as a child, does not mean you have to ignore the reality that what your parents did was wrong. I don't know wtf makes people think that hundreds of years old parenting strategies are the only ones worth considering. Yep, people sure have advanced a lot, but regardless of how much we have learned and advanced in all of these other areas of human development, the parenting strategies used by people hundreds of years ago obviously cannot be improved upon.

Spanking is lazy and ignorant parenting. It sure is a lot easier to assault your kid than it is to learn about alternative discipline strategies (this may be a shocker, but they DO EXIST, which destroys the "oh but we have to!" argument). "I care so much about my kid that I am willing to assault them, but I don't quite care enough to pick up a book or do a 5 minute google search..."

Here is a start for the parents who have the energy to use physical aggression but are too lazy to use a keyboard:

Harmful Effects of Spanking (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=harmful+effects+of+spanking)

Non-Violent Parenting (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=non-violent+parenting)

Alternatives to Spanking (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=alternatives+to+spanking)

Ten Reasons Not to Hit Your Kids (http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONNRfflggBg&feature=channel_video_title

Now that I am home and had time to go through this post and read what you posted, I have to say there are some good points in there. I appreciate you taking the time to post that, there is good info.

I am not completely sold on it though, and I don't believe that used sparingly, as a last resort, spanking is harmful. Notice I said sparingly (as in not threatening spankings every time the ruffle their feathers, and especially acting on it). Also notice I said as a last resort - I firmly believe that spanking should never be used just because you are angry and want to lash out. It should be carefully considered, and all other options should be exhausted.

But other than that +rep for the good post and info. I learned alot.

[Wesker1982]

Now that I am home and had time to go through this post and read what you posted, I have to say there are some good points in there. I appreciate you taking the time to post that, there is good info.


I am glad you found it helpful.


I don't believe that used sparingly, as a last resort, spanking is harmful.

What is wrong with hitting women sparingly, as a last resort, when men don't like their behavior? This is entirely relevant, I think. For I do not see how anyone could argue that everyone except the absolutely most helpless (children) should be defended from physical violence.



But other than that +rep for the good post and info. I learned alot.

+rep to you for being civil and intellectually honest

[Bordillo]

Um no.

Exactly the opposite. I want us to personally responsible for our own actions, and that includes the upbringing of our kids.

-rep you for the "FU" part, completely uncalled for.

The parents didnt get maced, the 8 year old did.

[teacherone]

What is wrong with hitting women sparingly, as a last resort, when men don't like their behavior? This is entirely relevant, I think. For I do not see how anyone could argue that everyone except the absolutely most helpless (children) should be defended from physical violence.


if i could plus rep you again, i would...

[AFPVet]

While the spanking debate is certainly interesting (and I agree with it), the issue in this context is the police officer. What provoked him to to use this type of force on a child? Now if the officer spanked the kid, that would be a different story. This thug needs to be placed on administrative leave pending an investigation and psych review.

[NJames]

What is wrong with hitting women sparingly, as a last resort, when men don't like their behavior? This is entirely relevant, I think.This is one of the dumbest things I have seen on the web.

[Kylebutler]

Someday kids in Lakewood, Colo. will become crotchety old men who complain about how kids have it easy, saying "Why, in my day, police used to come and pepper spray second graders if they got out of line."

According to 9 News Colorado, police caused some controversy in February by subduing an 8-year-old second grader via the non-lethal yet possibly harmful weapon.

Police say the kid was shouting profanities, climbing school equipment, spitting and pulling wood trim off of walls to try to stab teachers.

The school district's superintendent defended the officers' actions:

“
"He was violent, he was verbal, he was abusive. The police were very thoughtful and thorough about the actions that they took."

”

In an interview Monday, the boy said he "kinda deserved it."

Due to mental health concerns, the boy was transferred to a school for kids with behavioral problems.

http://consumerist.com/2011/04/police-pepper-spray-unruly-8-year-old-at-school.html

I remember this story. That kid completely deserved to get maced.

[Wesker1982]

This is one of the dumbest things I have seen on the web.

If it is so obviously dumb then you should be able to answer the question with no problems.

Why is hitting children acceptable but hitting women is not? I would really like to see anyone who hits children answer this question.

[NJames]

Children's behavior is supposed to be changed by their parents. There is not a similar relationship between men and women. You may as well ask why shopkeepers shouldn't hit their employees and customers. That is why your question is one of the dumbest things I've seen.

[00_Pete]

If the cops tried to subdue him with more "physical" methods you would all be crying about it. If the kid managed to seriously wound a cop with a sharp object you would be finding a way to blame the cop.

Some people have too much "Rage Against The Latrine"/"Sid Vicious telling the Queen to fuck off"/"MTV skater/punk music video with a kid giving the Bird to a cop" thing on their minds.

Quit with the sensitivity/ohhh-its-societies-fault baloney...beat your kids. Generally kids are weaker, less intelligent, less experienced and less reasonable than adults, kids are severely overrated. And this is coming from a guy that, when the family reunions happen, is almost always next to the small cousins playing and messing around with them. If you love your and others kids consider them barbarian, inferior and act accordingly. This is the formula to turn them into productive, moral adults.

[IRONCLAD]

you want us to be perfect slaves? Fu

troll ;-)

[Wesker1982]

Children's behavior is supposed to be changed by their parents.

That is not the argument. The question is whether or not using violence on the most helpless people in society to change behavior is justified. People used to be barbaric enough to believe wives behaviors are supposed to be changed by their husbands. Thankfully, mostly everyone by now has seen that for what it is (unjustified violence).

[teacherone]

Quit with the sensitivity/ohhh-its-societies-fault baloney...beat your kids.

mind if we ban you again?

[00_Pete]

mind if we ban you again?

"Who's we? You got a turd in your pocket?" :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0MaZXfzT20

Spanking = Less laws, rules and regulations. Less government. Less crime. More moral and cultured population. etc etc. One of the reasons society started to go so wrong and government growing so big is because adults just don't treat those little inferior BRATS the way they should be treated.

"Love at 50 miles-an-hour makes Tyranny go sour"

[NJames]

That is not the argument. So wha'didya bring it up for?

[pcosmar]

If the cops tried to subdue him with more "physical" methods you would all be crying about it. If the kid managed to seriously wound a cop with a sharp object you would be finding a way to blame the cop.


I sure would. There is no need to be injured restraining an 8 yr old.
There is no need for mace or a tazer either.

You just disarm him and hold him, at that point you reason with him. I have done the same with grown men larger than myself, perhaps this lame brute should look for alternative employment.