Paul's threat to shatter the IRS into a thousand pieces

[wecandoit]

Of all the departments RP talks about doing away with, I would have to think getting rid of the IRS would legally be the simplilest one to do.

I haven't read much discussion about what he would be up against from the other two branches of government when it comes to getting rid of departments, like DHS or education, I'm not real sure how he would go about it.

But when it comes to the IRS, it would seem to me he would need ZERO cooperation from anyone in congress or the courts. All he has to do is point out that the 16th admendment was never ratified, and that a tax on income is forbidden by the constitution. Heck, he could just announce to the American people not to fill out a 1040!

It seems the next easiest department would be the federal reserve, as again, it's very existance is prohibited by our constitution.

So probably the two biggest things that need to go, would also be the easiest LEGALLY to get rid of. I punch the word legally, because the real opposistion would come from much more lethal powers, the shadowy figures lurking behind the curtain, who control the media, thus public perception, and everything else.

Surely, an attempt to do away with the IRS and the Federal Reserve would bring down 10 times the heat JFK recieved after he vowed to scatter the CIA into a thousand pieces.

thoughts?

[angrydragon]

I'll step up if he needs guards. =)

[wecandoit]

I just think it highlights the point that as hard as it will be to get RP elected, that will pale in comparison to the work we will have ahead of us AFTER he is elected.

I'm game.

[Gee]

The executive branch isn't allowed to simply remove things on a whim, since the ratification of the 16th amendment is obviously something for the courts to decide. The IRS would have to be dissolved by the congress, and Ron Paul doesn't even want to abolish the Fed (he just wants to legalize competition with it).

[Richandler]

Ron Paul has said himself that he would not be able to do it but would merely try and start the transition process of it.

[CJLauderdale4]

I've thought of how to do this, and it is simple.

The President is the head of the Executive Branch, and he appoints who will run each department.

All Ron needs to do is NOT appoint anyone to the job. No IRS head, no Secretary of Education, Homeland Security, Health and Human Services, etc.

Just like the President doesn't need to appoint Federal judges, leaving hundreds of seats open, Ron can simply not appoint directors or secretaries.

Then, he can reorganize the departments that are left to do the job more effectively and per the Constitution.

Everyone else, go home and get a real job!!

[wecandoit]

The executive branch isn't allowed to simply remove things on a whim, since the ratification of the 16th amendment is obviously something for the courts to decide. The IRS would have to be dissolved by the congress, and Ron Paul doesn't even want to abolish the Fed (he just wants to legalize competition with it).

I would think the truth would dissolve the IRS for all pratical purposes. All he has to say in his state of the union address is that there is no law requiring citizens to pay income tax. I mean I guess the IRS would still be there, but they probably wouldn't be doing much.

As far as actually dissolving the IRS, and the Fed and the rest, yes, I assumed he would need help from congress, which would only come from extreme pressure from the people. And it was my understanding he does want to totally get rid of the Fed and have congress go back to printing our money.

It would be fireworks for sure. It would be a state of the union address like no other.

[angrydragon]

Well the irs and the income tax can be wiped easily if the government reduces it's spending. The fed. govt. will still have 1 trillion/year or so to spend from other taxes.

[austin356]

I would think the truth would dissolve the IRS for all pratical purposes. All he has to say in his state of the union address is that there is no law requiring citizens to pay income tax. I mean I guess the IRS would still be there, but they probably wouldn't be doing much.

As far as actually dissolving the IRS, and the Fed and the rest, yes, I assumed he would need help from congress, which would only come from extreme pressure from the people. And it was my understanding he does want to totally get rid of the Fed and have congress go back to printing our money.

It would be fireworks for sure. It would be a state of the union address like no other.



I would give anything of Earthly value for a president to say that at a SoU.

[Gee]

I would think the truth would dissolve the IRS for all pratical purposes. All he has to say in his state of the union address is that there is no law requiring citizens to pay income tax. I mean I guess the IRS would still be there, but they probably wouldn't be doing much.
Well, I guess that would work. But he'd have to successfully cut spending by quite a bit in order to do that, so if he's able to do that, getting rid of the IRS is probably easier.

[ButchHowdy]

Isn't there a provision that allows us to buy out the Federal Reserve at any time?

[dude58677]

The executive branch isn't allowed to simply remove things on a whim, since the ratification of the 16th amendment is obviously something for the courts to decide. The IRS would have to be dissolved by the congress, and Ron Paul doesn't even want to abolish the Fed (he just wants to legalize competition with it).

He can veto funds for the IRS. He can pardon all tax evaders, not appoint an IRS director, and he can erase all the regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations.

[kimosabi]

The executive branch isn't allowed to simply remove things on a whim, since the ratification of the 16th amendment is obviously something for the courts to decide. The IRS would have to be dissolved by the congress, and Ron Paul doesn't even want to abolish the Fed (he just wants to legalize competition with it).

Yeah right, didn't George W Bush remove all of your civil rights without congressional approval, oops sorry, my mistake, that was the United States of America, not the United States of Neo-cons...

[Spatch67]

Surely, an attempt to do away with the IRS and the Federal Reserve would bring down 10 times the heat JFK recieved after he vowed to scatter the CIA into a thousand pieces.

thoughts?

I happen to think that JFK received a majority of the heat in Dallas, TX one day because of his opposition to the Federal Reserve and CIA. So 10 times as much heat would be alot!

[belian78]

Isn't there a provision that allows us to buy out the Federal Reserve at any time?

yes, we can at any time buy out the FED for the amount that was paid initially.

[CJLauderdale4]

Easy to reduce spending when the departments have no appointed leaders (directors or secretaries) and thus, no need for employees to carry out daily duties.

The budget would be signed by President Ron Paul (wow! that sounded good) and then the money wouldn't get spent. The Treasury and the GAO would be reporting a HUGE surplus and President Ron Paul (ahhh, sounded good there too!) would look like a hero for efficiently running the country.

Of course, Congress would now be united in impeaching Ron for not carrying out the will of the poeple, considering all of those departments were established upon Congressional laws.

Ron would then be pressed to prove that he IS carrying out the laws, just not in the manner or departments that Congress had established.

[CJLauderdale4]

As far as the Fed, that's easy too.

They currently accept their own fiat money for payment. So if Ron can setup a parallel gold-backed currency, and get it established nationwide, then whenever he feels compelled, he can have the printing presses print a crapload of fiat money, deposit it into a Federal account, and payoff the Fed with their own crap. Fiat paper with no value just paid off a fiat debt. Done!

[CAKochenash]

i don't think we need to worry about proving the 16th being illegally ratified. It is my understanding that there is a supreme court case stating that the 16th did not grant any new powers...no?

[gravesdav]

I would give anything of Earthly value for a president to say that at a SoU.

How about $2300 to the Ron Paul campaign

[johngr]

I've got a great idea for how to buy out of the Federal Reserve. Instead of giving them a bunch of gold or finished goods or future labor or first born sons or anything of value like that, we should instead take a page out of their book: DETERMINE THE AMOUNT WE "OWE" THEM, PRINT A FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE FOR THAT AMOUNT AND PRESENT IT TO THEM.

[CJLauderdale4]

I've got a great idea for how to buy out of the Federal Reserve. Instead of giving them a bunch of gold or finished goods or future labor or first born sons or anything of value like that, we should instead take a page out of their book: DETERMINE THE AMOUNT WE "OWE" THEM, PRINT A FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE FOR THAT AMOUNT AND PRESENT IT TO THEM.

EXACTLY!!!

Fiat promissory note for that ass!! That's what I'm talking about!! If they accept their own fiat money to pay off the debt, then pay it off with fiat money.

Remember though, at that point, the accpetance of FRNs will need to be against the law since any more usage of such will put us back in debt, and of course the inflation after we print all of that money will be enormous making the fiat dollar worthless.

[CJLauderdale4]

Ooh, one more problem...

All of these foreign countries hold US Treasury Notes, which is how we borrow the money (i.e. Ron's mentioning of $60B/day from China at the debate). If we collapse the dollar instantly without giving them time to move their assests (which they're already doing slowly), we could start a war. Gotta remember that whole "blowback" thing works in economics too...

[Gee]

He can veto funds for the IRS. He can pardon all tax evaders, not appoint an IRS director, and he can erase all the regulations in the Code of Federal Regulations.
I think its more likely he'll veto funding bills until the spending is brought down in a reasonable level, then work on removing the IRS.

Of course, he's also said that he'd sign one of the other tax plans, like the fair or flat tax, but he didn't think they had the needed support in congress yet.

[CJLauderdale4]

Keep in mind. He can sign whatever he wants for spending, but he is the "executor" of the government (as the GW puts it, "I'm the commander guy. I'm the decider!). Signing the bill only means we agree to make the money available, not that we've spent it.

Thus, he can choose to spend how he pleases, based on how he implements the solution. When he implements in a way that allows States to make the decision, or rolling up homeland security into the defense department, less money will be spent and you'll be hearing the MSM reporting on huge surpluses.

[Patriot]

yes, we can at any time buy out the FED for the amount that was paid initially.


Do you have a link with more info about that? I thought we had to pay all of the interest, as well as the original amount. How much is the original amount?

[Gee]

Remember though, at that point, the accpetance of FRNs will need to be against the law...
I'm glad Ron Paul doesn't want to do this, it would cause global economic chaos. He just wants to legalize competition with the Fed. Remember that Gresham's Law only applies with force-mandated currency.

Besides, there are some advantages to fiat money. Who are we to tell people what they can and cannot use as currency?

[CJLauderdale4]

I'm glad Ron Paul doesn't want to do this, it would cause global economic chaos. He just wants to legalize competition with the Fed. Remember that Gresham's Law only applies with force-mandated currency.

Besides, there are some advantages to fiat money. Who are we to tell people what they can and cannot use as currency?

No, no, you're right on the chaos. That was why I chimed in with the foreign note holders. And yes, there is an advantage to having fiat money, IF it's printing and value are regulated very closely. However, since Uncle Sam prints it, it has become an overwhleming temptation to just print more when needed.

As for the government telling us what we can use for currency, that is Constitutional. The Federal Government can choose what the currency will be and mandate it's usage by all banks. In fact, it's only the Federal Government who has this authority, to coin money, thus one of the Federal Reserve is unconstitutional arguments.

If you want to barter in other ways, have at it. Remember though, they banned gold and silver ownership and usage as currency when they established Fort Knox as the depository. So, Ron would need to eliminate the Gold and Silver Act. And banks will only take what the FDIC mandates.

[Gee]

Remember though, they banned gold and silver ownership and usage as currency when they established Fort Knox as the depository.
Thats what Ron has said he has wanted to do. I hope he goes a step further and allows other currencies. There are some interesting ideas out there for currencies not backed by gold or silver, such as the Terra. As currency becomes more and more electronic, I hope we'll the hegemony of national currencies be reduced.